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Author Topic: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3  (Read 44814 times)

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Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #285 on: June 22, 2022, 10:42:13 AM »
I'm very curious to hear from those of you running OMT arrays who have hands-on experience using both X/Y and Mid/Side as center pair regarding differences in substituting one for the other.  Not so much with regards to setup, but rather the impression of any difference in sound, particularly in getting the overall OMT recording sounding the way you want in mixing.

I've not really compared both coincident center pair arrangements sufficiently to confidently conclude from experience that they are as interchangeable in practice as they are in theory.  Complicating things further are differences of implementation using specific microphones, as anecdotally at least some seem to work better in one coincident arrangement verses the other.
kindms and I have done several types of events where we contrasted the mid channels.


Recognized Armando SBD man in your photo. Nice rig and thanks for the discussion about this topic. Wish I could run a rig like that at JGB. Great Stuff!

a good friend runs that festival so we pretty much had the run of the place.

funny Armando put a measurement mic all the way down on the floor at this show. I remember it because it got bumped several times in a high traffic spot. the previous night was Bob Weirs soundman, guy did it by ear for Golden Gate Wingmen. I had to give him props for that. it sounded great
Another funny from  the 24th was Melvin during soundcheck. He was mad at the rhythm section and chastising them like, "Last night we played that so damn fast, play it LIKE THIS" he plays a few bars, then the band starts up, a few bars later he stops them and says loudly, "NO, I said LIKE THIS..." kindms and I were pretty much set up by that time and looked at each other eyebrows raised. LOL     >:D
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Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #286 on: June 22, 2022, 10:57:27 AM »
OK, back to the MS vs XY. I was searching for links where we did MS and found this one where we used kindms 426 in crossed figure 8's (Blumlein, MS' granddaddy) AND an AKG ck8 shotgun in the center:
https://archive.org/details/jh50f72019-09-24.akgomt      (pretty sure I did not use the rear ck61 in the final mix)
And here is a Kung Fu we did with just kindms' 426 in crossed figure 8's, the AKG ck61 pair (2ft split PAS) and the omni pair with AKG ck22(4ft Split)
https://archive.org/details/kungfu2019-04-06.AKGc426AKGck22AKGck61       (Major AUD noise, talker alert)  >:D

Here is one from the Cap where we ran the 426 using ck3's in an OMT 5 using a card center and the ck22 omnis split.
https://archive.org/details/hpmr2018-10-05.akg426ck22ck61
 
As Gutbucket points out in his tutorials, mixing the MS or any center channel mix becomes one of frequency width on the material and sonic tradeoffs. Using a true MS, and even with the crossed fig 8's, it is best to do the standard OMT thing first by making the center channel(s) the anchor of the mix, adding the omnis and other directional mics as fill. Typically, I would guess the omnis come in about 5-8 dB down from the center channels, all other things equal.

music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E|DPA 4060 SK
Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #287 on: June 22, 2022, 11:56:46 AM »
Another funny from  the 24th was Melvin during soundcheck. He was mad at the rhythm section and chastising them like, "Last night we played that so damn fast, play it LIKE THIS" he plays a few bars, then the band starts up, a few bars later he stops them and says loudly, "NO, I said LIKE THIS..." kindms and I were pretty much set up by that time and looked at each other eyebrows raised. LOL     >:D

Heh, their drummer Pete Lavezzoli is a local down here, grew up in Ft Lauderdale.  Interesting guy, quite a polymath.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #288 on: June 22, 2022, 12:05:17 PM »
[snip..] it is best to do the standard OMT thing first by making the center channel(s) the anchor of the mix, adding the omnis and other directional mics as fill. Typically, I would guess the omnis come in about 5-8 dB down from the center channels, all other things equal.

It's interesting to hear about each person's slightly different approach to mixing.  This sounds like how I approach indoor mixes where I may use only a little of the omnis or none at all - none equating to the OMT4 "difficult room" arrangement of coincident-center + double normal width DIN supercards.

Outdoors, or in good rooms, or on-stage/stage-lip I tend to start with the omnis, then add the center, then the wide-near-spaced pair, etc. and the omnis tend to have the same or a bit more level than everything else in the mix.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline fireonshakedwnstreet

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #289 on: June 22, 2022, 12:22:41 PM »
I usually mix the omnis down right in that 5-8db range, especially indoors, simply because of the crowd noise. I try to go through each pair and isolate the most obnoxious screams, loud talkers, and knock those down so I can use more of the omnis. The omnis sound the most realistic to me in terms of getting the tone of the space, and of course the bass. In terms of levels, I typically mix the drier source first (hyper), then the cards, then the omnis, the shotguns I will clean up with EQ and add those in last.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #290 on: June 22, 2022, 12:33:01 PM »
Interesting.  I tend to go the opposite way, starting with the omnis as the base, with more overall room sound and adding the dry stuff to that to clarify.  Except when I'm not using the omnis much or at all.

I suppose its sort of like an AUD/SBD matrix.  Is it AUD/SBD or SBD/AUD?  Either can be the base-line or starting point and converge on a well-balanced recording.  What's especially interesting to me is if the different approaches lead to different choices along the way and/or somewhat different combinations in the end, particularly as the combinations become more complex.  As we've discussed there is not only more than one way to approach it, there is often more than one good answer.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2022, 09:28:31 AM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #291 on: June 22, 2022, 12:33:42 PM »


A persnickety minor clarification on the bit below I posted yesterday-
I didn't want to complicate the discussion too much with this detail in that post, but Rock mentioning Blumlein center with example links spurs me to note that..

Secondly, the mono sum of the pair (100% Mid component = to both mics panned fully center) has a virtual polar-pattern of its own which is a different shape than that of the physical microphones. That pattern is not as tight as the microphones of the X/Y pair.  It will instead have a shape more like both patterns angled apart by the X/Y angle overlaying each other.  Given that, narrower X/Y angles produce a tighter pattern Mid component, and wider angles a fatter one.  The Mid component of an X/Y pair of narrow angled supercards would plot out as something cardioid-ish in shape.  The Mid component of a pair of cardioids would plot out something subcardioid like.  And an X/Y pair setup with a 180º angle will produce a Mid component that is omnidirectional, regardless of the polar pattern of the actual mics used.

This is true in general for X/Y, however the exception is Blumlein, the mono-sum / 100% Mid component of which is a virtual fig-8 which has the same shape as the fig-8 Mid of its Mid/Side equivalent.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #292 on: June 23, 2022, 11:41:22 PM »
Hey hey.  I've recently been working on revising the Illustrated OMT booklet PDF linked in my signature, long over due for an update.  Still working on addendum stuff: introduction & overview, channel assignments & file management, mixing, playback options, technical discussions, a brief history of OMT development, potential advanced arrangements, table of contents.. 

However, I think I have the setup section with diagrams of OMT3 through OMT8 setups pretty much nailed down. Attaching those here, pre-release, potentially still subject to final edits.  May roll most of these and a few others into a single document and replace the outdated version in my signature prior to getting everything completed.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline EmRR

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #293 on: June 24, 2022, 12:14:05 AM »
Lauten LS-308 could figure into this conversation.  I don't know anyone that's used one yet.  Second order cardioid with two capsules.   It'd be a pain to mount in an array. 




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSAoaxHND28


Well, I’ve used one onstage a bit now. It’s an interesting problem solver that sometimes works, sometimes no better than the usual suspects.  It’s been best on acoustic bass with drums, tricky to get right. Did no better at rejecting monitor bleed on acoustic guitar than other cardioid condensers. It’s got huge bottom and midrange, with a rolled off top. I don’t see it working well as a concert taping mic, BUT I haven’t tried it there either. It gave good results 8’ off a cranked guitar amp, sounding much closer than it was while still getting a non-close mic’d amp sound, and it doesn’t sound like a shotgun.  It’s telling, perhaps, that the pattern shown doesn’t address frequency at all, it will clearly be different across the spectrum.  I’m glad to have one just for acoustic bass and drums sessions, but don’t think I need 2 or more.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2022, 12:16:43 AM by EmRR »
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Offline fireonshakedwnstreet

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #294 on: June 24, 2022, 07:23:34 AM »
Hey hey.  I've recently been working on revising the Illustrated OMT booklet PDF linked in my signature, long over due for an update.  Still working on addendum stuff: introduction & overview, channel assignments & file management, mixing, playback options, technical discussions, a brief history of OMT development, potential advanced arrangements, table of contents.. 

However, I think I have the setup section with diagrams of OMT3 through OMT8 setups pretty much nailed down. Attaching those here, pre-release, potentially still subject to final edits.  May roll most of these and a few others into a single document and replace the outdated version in my signature prior to getting everything completed.

Awesome gb! Thanks
Mics: AT 3031; AT 853Rx (c, o); CA-14(c); JVC M510; Naiant X-R (h); Studio Projects C4 (c, o, h); Nak 300
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Pres: Edirol UA-5 (Oade PMod; Oade WMod); Naiant MidBox; Sound Devices MixPre; Shure FP11

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #295 on: June 24, 2022, 07:44:02 AM »
Hey hey.  I've recently been working on revising the Illustrated OMT booklet PDF linked in my signature, long over due for an update.  Still working on addendum stuff: introduction & overview, channel assignments & file management, mixing, playback options, technical discussions, a brief history of OMT development, potential advanced arrangements, table of contents.. 

However, I think I have the setup section with diagrams of OMT3 through OMT8 setups pretty much nailed down. Attaching those here, pre-release, potentially still subject to final edits.  May roll most of these and a few others into a single document and replace the outdated version in my signature prior to getting everything completed.

Thank you GB!  Looking forward to checking these out.
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Offline phil_er_up

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #296 on: June 24, 2022, 07:48:24 AM »
Hey hey.  I've recently been working on revising the Illustrated OMT booklet PDF linked in my signature, long over due for an update.  Still working on addendum stuff: introduction & overview, channel assignments & file management, mixing, playback options, technical discussions, a brief history of OMT development, potential advanced arrangements, table of contents.. 

However, I think I have the setup section with diagrams of OMT3 through OMT8 setups pretty much nailed down. Attaching those here, pre-release, potentially still subject to final edits.  May roll most of these and a few others into a single document and replace the outdated version in my signature prior to getting everything completed.

Thank you for this Gurbucket your work it is appreciated by the TS members immensely. Will check them out!
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #297 on: June 24, 2022, 09:30:59 AM »
Thanks guys will be interested in your thoughts.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #298 on: June 24, 2022, 10:47:23 AM »
Lauten LS-308 could figure into this conversation.  I don't know anyone that's used one yet.  Second order cardioid with two capsules.   It'd be a pain to mount in an array. 




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSAoaxHND28

Well, I’ve used one onstage a bit now. It’s an interesting problem solver that sometimes works, sometimes no better than the usual suspects.  It’s been best on acoustic bass with drums, tricky to get right. Did no better at rejecting monitor bleed on acoustic guitar than other cardioid condensers. It’s got huge bottom and midrange, with a rolled off top. I don’t see it working well as a concert taping mic, BUT I haven’t tried it there either. It gave good results 8’ off a cranked guitar amp, sounding much closer than it was while still getting a non-close mic’d amp sound, and it doesn’t sound like a shotgun.  It’s telling, perhaps, that the pattern shown doesn’t address frequency at all, it will clearly be different across the spectrum.  I’m glad to have one just for acoustic bass and drums sessions, but don’t think I need 2 or more.

Interesting.  I've wondered when we might start seeing more of this.  Seems very similar to what Schoeps does with two capsules and digital processing in their SuperCMIT shotgun.  Have long thought it would be very interesting to see what those might be able to do in the context of these arrays ..but for the cost and digital only interfacing.



EmRR, I've been thinking again about the arrays you've posted about here in which you included shotgun mics, and where super directional (or more-specifically, super off-axis rejecting) patterns might be best employed in OMT arrays in general. Very interesting setups you've made with an additional shotgun coincident with the regular center pair, pointed over at the closer PA in what would seem an geometrically asymmetrical arrangement, and it is asymmetrical with respect to the array's geometry, yet not with respect to its resulting output because that asymmetrically angled mic is coincident with the center.  Very cool innovative solution.

This has all come to mind again due to what what I've observed to be one of the valuable aspects the addition of the supercardioid near-spaced pair to the omnis and coincident center pair seems to provide.  I'm now wondering if the near-spaced pair may perhaps be the best place for super-focus on the PA, rather than trying to keep the directly forward-facing center Mid highly isolated, or in your well-considered placement of a single shotgun coincident with the center pair, pointed at the clearer/louder PA.  It might be, yet then begs for symmetry again, both in array geometry, and probably also somewhat in placement relative to the PA to some degree.  May be simpler and just as effective to do what you've done in using a single mic with super focus on the PA mic added to the center, and that might be more effective when setup off-center as well.

musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline EmRR

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #299 on: June 24, 2022, 11:06:25 AM »
What was most revealing and unexpected with the PAS shotgun was that it integrated perfectly into the stereo image when panned as pointed with respect to the overall array. It does not come out sounding asymmetrical. 
Mics: DPA 4060 w/MPS 6030 PSU/DAD6001/DAD4099, Neumann KM 131, Oktava MK 012, Sennheiser MKH 105, MKH 20, MKH 30, MKH 40, MKH 800 TWIN
Recorders: Zoom F8n, Sony MZ-R50

 

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