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Author Topic: Zoom F3  (Read 21719 times)

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #180 on: June 08, 2022, 10:25:32 AM »
Thanks Ozpeter- I also like and recommend Voxengo MSED VST.  Its a great M/S tool, and does exactly what is intended without extraneous features.  Its ability to balance imaging by allowing one to pan the Mid and Side channels separately is especially useful - the effect of which is to apply a different M/S ratio to the Left verses Right channel output.  That can be done via a mixer as well, but its easy and straight forward using the plugin.

To clarify, the issue I describe above occurs only when mixing on the recorder itself and needing to add digital gain which causes some internal levels to exceed 0dbFS.  Its not a problem when mixing on the computer, where levels can bee freely adjusted for all channels, processing is typically taking place in a 32-bit float calculation space, and MSED or similar functionality built-in to many DAW programs is used.

I think the whole thing can be viewed in reverse - if 32 bit float had been the norm for the last 50 years, and someone brought out a 24 bit recorder and said one of the features was that you can set the input level so that it doesn't overload or undercook, would people say, wow, that's a great idea?

Except in that case they either wouldn't be overloading or overcooking input levels to begin with (and thus wouldn't perceive a problem that needed solving), or if they were, that solution wouldn't fix it (because the analog input or ADC is what would be overloading, not the file-storage format that follows. 

Its all about the order of the sequential domains and where overload is occurring, or is capable of occurring, based on the range of what preceded it: signal>analog-input-stage>ADC>file-format
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline mcfoster

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Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #181 on: June 08, 2022, 11:28:09 AM »
Thanks Ozpeter- I also like and recommend Voxengo MSED VST.  Its a great M/S tool, and does exactly what is intended without extraneous features.  Its ability to balance imaging by allowing one to pan the Mid and Side channels separately is especially useful - the effect of which is to apply a different M/S ratio to the Left verses Right channel output.  That can be done via a mixer as well, but its easy and straight forward using the plugin.

To clarify, the issue I describe above occurs only when mixing on the recorder itself and needing to add digital gain which causes some internal levels to exceed 0dbFS.  Its not a problem when mixing on the computer, where levels can bee freely adjusted for all channels, processing is typically taking place in a 32-bit float calculation space, and MSED or similar functionality built-in to many DAW programs is used.

I think the whole thing can be viewed in reverse - if 32 bit float had been the norm for the last 50 years, and someone brought out a 24 bit recorder and said one of the features was that you can set the input level so that it doesn't overload or undercook, would people say, wow, that's a great idea?

Except in that case they either wouldn't be overloading or overcooking input levels to begin with (and thus wouldn't perceive a problem that needed solving), or if they were, that solution wouldn't fix it (because the analog input or ADC is what would be overloading, not the file-storage format that follows. 

Its all about the order of the sequential domains and where overload is occurring, or is capable of occurring, based on the range of what preceded it: signal>analog-input-stage>ADC>file-format

No matter how Old School one wants to be, I know some people like to set levels, and I know people who don't. If running right in front of the stage it is very nice to just set it and forget it, and not bother any other crowd or band members while checking in on things. The possible best feature of 32 bit float is noticed in post IMO. You take an "overdriven/clipping/float) file into your DAW that has NOT one volume adjustment up or down during the entire recording, so long as you leave it alone, and normalize it. What you end up with is a nice linear recording with no level ups and downs to deal with in post. It just reflects what the PA or other source was doing at the time. I feel that the F6 and F3 have made me a better taper and is a better experience in the field and in post. Ozpeter hit the nail on the head, at least for me. This is amazing technology, why not use it.
Recording:
AKG CK1X,2X,3X,8X>Modded MK46's>PFA's ADK-51's>Zoom F6 and or F3
Sennheiser MK2E gopro elements> DR-05

Playback:
Peachtree Nova? Topping D70?Marantz NA6006?>Inspire Audio SET EL84 tube amp?Hafler SE-120's? Amp Camp Nelson Pass designed 8 watt Class A (building now)>Klipsch Custom KLF-20's, RF-7's it depends on the day.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #182 on: June 08, 2022, 01:11:37 PM »
The possible best feature of 32 bit float is noticed in post IMO. You take an "overdriven/clipping/float) file into your DAW that has NOT one volume adjustment up or down during the entire recording, so long as you leave it alone, and normalize it. What you end up with is a nice linear recording with no level ups and downs to deal with in post. It just reflects what the PA or other source was doing at the time.

Yes.  I think Datbrad's point is that you can set things up so as to work that way already.  Advantage is not needing to do any initial setting up.

Quote
I feel that the F6 and F3 have made me a better taper and is a better experience in the field and in post. Ozpeter hit the nail on the head, at least for me. This is amazing technology, why not use it.

Agreed.  I also agree with Ozpeter's take on practical usage, effectively using it as a form of meter range adjustment.
Quote
If I had one of these devices I would set the magnification to show that the mics were working even with empty hall ambience (for total reassurance) and probably I wouldn't look at the display again.

musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline yug du nord

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Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #183 on: June 08, 2022, 01:53:48 PM »
I have not used a 32 bit float device.
I find it pretty amazing that a person can more or less pull a great recording every time without worry of levels.
And I know it would be great in specific situations.

But… does this technology make a person a better taper??.. or does it make a person a worse taper that is able to make better tapes??
I’m sure I’ll get a F3 at some point..  so my question is just stirring the pot a bit.
.....got a blank space where my mind should be.....

Offline daspyknows

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Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #184 on: June 08, 2022, 02:05:49 PM »
I have not used a 32 bit float device.
I find it pretty amazing that a person can more or less pull a great recording every time without worry of levels.
And I know it would be great in specific situations.

But… does this technology make a person a better taper??.. or does it make a person a worse taper that is able to make better tapes??
I’m sure I’ll get a F3 at some point..  so my question is just stirring the pot a bit.

That's my feeling as well.  I want to see one and play with it before I would buy.  Its more about ease of getting in and improving the recordings rather than making it easier.

Its like GPS and traveling.  I remember doing Europe Dead tour by car using maps to navigate versus now my phone tells me where to go.  Not sure I could navigate that trip uses maps today 30 years later.

Offline mcfoster

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Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #185 on: June 08, 2022, 04:52:25 PM »
I have not used a 32 bit float device.
I find it pretty amazing that a person can more or less pull a great recording every time without worry of levels.
And I know it would be great in specific situations.

But… does this technology make a person a better taper??.. or does it make a person a worse taper that is able to make better tapes??
I’m sure I’ll get a F3 at some point..  so my question is just stirring the pot a bit.

OK to stir the pot... When I wrote that I meant to mention that it makes it easier to concentrate on other aspects of recording, like microphone choice, stand height, location,pattern etc. In the case of this past weekend when I did two nights at the same venue with the same 2 bands, I recorded from 3 different places in the amphitheater because it was not very sold, and things were loose. Had time to walk the room during the sets and see where sounded best in there... And at the end of it all, the levels become a non point of comparison. The setup mattered more.... I travel light, actives and 32 bit, so sure could I make a better recording with pre's/AD's and what not, probably. But I don't see myself doing that.
Recording:
AKG CK1X,2X,3X,8X>Modded MK46's>PFA's ADK-51's>Zoom F6 and or F3
Sennheiser MK2E gopro elements> DR-05

Playback:
Peachtree Nova? Topping D70?Marantz NA6006?>Inspire Audio SET EL84 tube amp?Hafler SE-120's? Amp Camp Nelson Pass designed 8 watt Class A (building now)>Klipsch Custom KLF-20's, RF-7's it depends on the day.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #186 on: June 08, 2022, 05:47:53 PM »
In the case of this past weekend when I did two nights at the same venue with the same 2 bands, I recorded from 3 different places in the amphitheater because it was not very sold, and things were loose. Had time to walk the room during the sets and see where sounded best in there..

This and the decisions made based on it is what gets categorized in the category of important higher-level taper skill to my way of thinking.  The other stuff all acts in support of the opportunities realized, and choices made based around this.  Good to figure out ways of managing all the the rudimentary stuff so attention can be focused here instead so that good opportunities can be taken best advantage of.  If 32 bit helps you to do that, then it's for the win.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline datbrad

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Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #187 on: June 09, 2022, 07:51:27 AM »
There is a similar movement going on in pro video. Lytro has come out with a 40K camera to capture what they call a "light field". Basically, with that resolution zooms and pans no longer have to be done live, all that can be done in post. You set the camera up and point it in the general direction of the subject and hit the rec button. The raw capture is just a fixed wide shot, no cinematography skills are required. Anyone with an index finger and enough aim to push a rec button can do it. Sound familiar?
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Offline Ozpeter

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Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #188 on: June 09, 2022, 10:37:01 AM »
Audio recording is a combination of art and science.  Microphone selection and placement is the art part.  Everything downstream of the mics is the science part.  It's the art part which distinguishes the great recordist from the lesser, and the great sound from the inferior.

(I guess dealing with Panatrope's second law of recording is also part of the art - "The number of channels required for a recording is always one more than the number of channels available".)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #189 on: June 09, 2022, 11:49:37 AM »
I need two more!

Agreed, although a different flavor of art comes back into play in the mixing/mastering realms.

Sound familiar?

Visual ambisonics.  Pick any pattern, pointed in any direction and derive as many virtual microphones as you want after the fact,  but limited to that single point in space.  If you want other camera angles you'll still need additional cameras / additional microphones if you want time-of arrival cues.

Sure would be cool shrunk down to a tiny Gopro-like format to mount on the mic stand, except for the crushing file size!
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline grawk

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Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #190 on: June 09, 2022, 01:17:25 PM »

Sure would be cool shrunk down to a tiny Gopro-like format to mount on the mic stand, except for the crushing file size!

GoPro Max 360.  Records in 5k, lets you resolve down to a 1080p shot where you can adjust the POV pretty drastically in post.  I use one kayaking.  It's amazing.  It's not the same as a good 4k cinema camera, but it's darn sure good enough for youtube.

Offline dallman

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Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #191 on: June 09, 2022, 11:55:14 PM »
I have not used a 32 bit float device.
I find it pretty amazing that a person can more or less pull a great recording every time without worry of levels.
And I know it would be great in specific situations.

But… does this technology make a person a better taper??.. or does it make a person a worse taper that is able to make better tapes??
I’m sure I’ll get a F3 at some point..  so my question is just stirring the pot a bit.
I have been using the technology for some time now, and while it is all subjective, I'd say no, it has not made me a better taper. Having recorded steadily since 1971, I learn something every time out. It is mic placement, listening to the room or outdoors, adjusting for so many reason and I am a better taper today than I was in 1971. Actually I think it took until the late 1980's before any of my recordings were fit for public consumption. I love the tinkering, mixing, matching and the learning best of all about this hobby and passion. I do however really like the new technology and it is one less thing to worry about and it helps me and my process continue to evolve, as it has continually evolved since my first recording. That said, it still is experience that sets my recordings apart from my earlier ones, and allows me the opportunity to try to get the best recording in whatever set of circumstances I am handed each time I go out to record. There are always lots of little things done that affect the end result. Do I make better recordings in a venue I know inside out over one I am in for the first time? The odds are better I might as my experience is greater, but that does not make it a given. The entire beauty of why so many of us record is partly to have copies of shows, artists and music we love, but it evolves for so many of us that we love the actual experience of recording ourselves with each our own techniques and habits which we all believe will allow our recording to be the best one and our favorite version of all those that get made in a given evening.

Yug as you know as well as anyone who has done open recording with me I absolutely enjoy complicating the and regularly changing up my process, but that is just me doing what I love. ;D
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Offline checht

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Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #192 on: June 10, 2022, 07:37:42 PM »
I have not used a 32 bit float device.
I find it pretty amazing that a person can more or less pull a great recording every time without worry of levels.
And I know it would be great in specific situations.

But… does this technology make a person a better taper??.. or does it make a person a worse taper that is able to make better tapes??
I’m sure I’ll get a F3 at some point..  so my question is just stirring the pot a bit.
Does tech that makes the process less complicated and less error-prone turn folks into worse tapers? Please help me understand that. Did longer tapes that made 2nd set flips easier make us worse?

Also, one thing I know for sure: anything that allows me to be more present in the moment to connect with the artists I'm seeing is a good thing. Quit taping for a bit because I felt I was getting too distracted from the music. Gear is fun, but art is where it's at for me.

YMMV 😀
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Offline mcfoster

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Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #193 on: June 10, 2022, 08:24:32 PM »
Damn those 80 minute Cd's. Useless. And FLAC you too! to the level of 8  haha!  :cheers: beers are flowin...
« Last Edit: June 10, 2022, 08:26:46 PM by mcfoster »
Recording:
AKG CK1X,2X,3X,8X>Modded MK46's>PFA's ADK-51's>Zoom F6 and or F3
Sennheiser MK2E gopro elements> DR-05

Playback:
Peachtree Nova? Topping D70?Marantz NA6006?>Inspire Audio SET EL84 tube amp?Hafler SE-120's? Amp Camp Nelson Pass designed 8 watt Class A (building now)>Klipsch Custom KLF-20's, RF-7's it depends on the day.

Offline yug du nord

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Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #194 on: June 10, 2022, 11:44:31 PM »
..like I said, just stirring the pot.

I understand the 32 bit float gives an opportunity to explore other techniques.
I was simply questioning if it makes a person a better taper??.
It seems to me that it takes away much of the effort (for good or bad) of recording a show.
All a person needs to do is hit record and enjoy the show..  which isn’t a bad thing..  but simplifies it to the point of being null and void somewhat it seems.  Which will probably result in many more good sounding recordings and possibly turn on more people to becoming concert tapers..  which is great! 

But I’m guessing that it’ll make tapers lose their ‘muscle’ a bit kinda like an electric bike does.
I have no problems with an electric bike..  it’s easier and a lot of fun I’m sure, but does it make you a better bicyclist??
Does a self-driving car make a person a better driver??
Does the 40K camera that datbrad mentioned make a person a better photographer??
Does Google make us smarter??
Do map books even exist anymore??
Do kids learn cursive these days, do people type on keyboards anymore (yeah yeah I’m plucking away with one finger on a touch pad, but that’s beyond the point).  ;)
Is 32 bit float another step in dumbing down the human process??
Do humans learn without making mistakes??

IMO the 32 bit float can make a person a better post-production engineer.. which is a facet of releasing a good recording.. but is separate from the taping end of things IMO.

So will the F3 squash a Mytek or AD2K or SD or any other 24bit AD??
Or does it just make it easier??
That’s my question.

And is anybody running a preamp in front of the F3 or does that defeat the purpose?
Are all 32 bit float dual ADC’s the same?

It’s all about making great tapes and having fun while doing it..
Like I said, I’m sure that I’ll be ‘floating’ at some point.. I’m just slow, skeptical, and stubborn.  :P

…yeah that was a bit overboard, but it’s Friday night!..





« Last Edit: June 11, 2022, 12:23:20 AM by yug du nord »
.....got a blank space where my mind should be.....

 

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