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Author Topic: Zoom F3  (Read 67986 times)

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mcfoster

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Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #150 on: May 31, 2022, 12:57:15 PM »
I'd love to hear a 2 mic A-B of an F3 and a Mix Pre 3, just for comp.
130-140dB and hot-out mic, that would be interesting.

I have been meaning to do one of these comparisons. Might make it happen soon. I also want to know if I am missing out on any performance/tonality when comparing the zoom pres to the mp3's

Offline hipporu

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Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #151 on: June 01, 2022, 03:24:03 AM »
I also want to know if I am missing out on any performance/tonality when comparing the zoom pres to the mp3's
I think the difference that can be heard may be in the preamps.
All other preferences will depend on your production process probably.
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Offline Ozpeter

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Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #152 on: June 01, 2022, 03:32:29 AM »
Unless differences are really significant, it's actually very hard for most people to spot the differences between recordings made on different devices, assuming levels are matched and the same mics etc are used.  In the good old days, when recording classical CDs I would sometimes use short sections from MiniDisc inserted into the DAT material.  The reviewers never noticed anything amiss - they were usually complimentary about the sound overall.  But to read some people's scathing opinions of MiniDisc sound, you would have thought it would stand out like a sore thumb.  (I used MD as a backup medium, and its pre-record ability was sometimes very handy when something unexpected happened in the sessions).

Of course with these 32 bit float recorders, a comparison could be made of apparently over-cooked recordings in 24 bits and 32 bit float, and there the difference would be very evident - horrible digital distortion vs nicely normalised pristine audio.

Offline voltronic

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Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #153 on: June 01, 2022, 06:18:57 PM »
Unless differences are really significant, it's actually very hard for most people to spot the differences between recordings made on different devices, assuming levels are matched and the same mics etc are used.  In the good old days, when recording classical CDs I would sometimes use short sections from MiniDisc inserted into the DAT material.  The reviewers never noticed anything amiss - they were usually complimentary about the sound overall.  But to read some people's scathing opinions of MiniDisc sound, you would have thought it would stand out like a sore thumb.  (I used MD as a backup medium, and its pre-record ability was sometimes very handy when something unexpected happened in the sessions).

Of course with these 32 bit float recorders, a comparison could be made of apparently over-cooked recordings in 24 bits and 32 bit float, and there the difference would be very evident - horrible digital distortion vs nicely normalised pristine audio.

That's a fun story about MiniDisc. I knew people that were using it, but never tried myself. In the situations you described, were you using the Hi-MD PCM format, or the earlier lossy compressed format?
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Offline Ozpeter

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Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #154 on: June 01, 2022, 10:56:53 PM »
I was using full sized machines (in that context - I also had small ones for concert work, using Hi-MD) and I think that Hi-MD wasn't available on those decks.  Scary how I forget now, when I used that medium so much back in the day.  I even made a jazz CD using an 8 track Yamaha MD machine - I just found sample tracks from that at https://nz.7digital.com/artist/mike-garrick-band-and-anita-wardell/release/down-on-your-knees-649197

Now what were we talking about?  Ah yes, the Zoom F3... show me a topic and I'll drift it...

Offline detroit lightning

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Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #155 on: June 02, 2022, 02:00:08 PM »
Do I need to convert to 24bit for playback? Any other workflow items I should be considering?

First time w/ 32bit...so just realizing I should probably think through some of this prior to working on some of these recent recordings!

Thanks...

Offline DavidPuddy

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Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #156 on: June 02, 2022, 02:07:05 PM »
Do I need to convert to 24bit for playback? Any other workflow items I should be considering?

First time w/ 32bit...so just realizing I should probably think through some of this prior to working on some of these recent recordings!

Thanks...

I use a Mixpre 6 ii, but I reduce the gain on the WAV files to under clipping and dither to 24 bit to save as a master
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Offline detroit lightning

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Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #157 on: June 02, 2022, 02:15:18 PM »


I use a Mixpre 6 ii, but I reduce the gain on the WAV files to under clipping and dither to 24 bit to save as a master

Is it necessary to dither to 24bit? What is the benefit of doing that?

Interestingly re: levels/clipping, I've found levels to be a bit low thus far with the F3. Don't think it's a power issue, but I've had to boost levels so far. My understanding is that 32bit helps with that too, in terms of noise...but thats a bit out of my depth. Anyway, it sounds good.

Offline dallman

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Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #158 on: June 02, 2022, 04:15:39 PM »


I use a Mixpre 6 ii, but I reduce the gain on the WAV files to under clipping and dither to 24 bit to save as a master

Is it necessary to dither to 24bit? What is the benefit of doing that?

Interestingly re: levels/clipping, I've found levels to be a bit low thus far with the F3. Don't think it's a power issue, but I've had to boost levels so far. My understanding is that 32bit helps with that too, in terms of noise...but thats a bit out of my depth. Anyway, it sounds good.
Here is what you may (or may not) realize if your output is low or high...
Although gain is set on the F3 and cannot be changed, the output from the F3 (the volume level transferred from your F3 recording to your computer or whatever) that will show up when you transfer the file will be determined by what you set on the front screen of your F3 (the wave size showing). If you adjust your volume to be high when recording (big wave shows on screen), your output will be high. If you set it low (small wave shows on screen), your output will be low. It is not all that relevant as the gain has been set and the final product will not suffer whether your volume was set low or high, but it might make your post adjustments easier or harder. You cannot set or change the gain, but you can set or change the output file which is the volume of the wave file being transferred.
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Offline eman

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Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #159 on: June 02, 2022, 08:02:04 PM »
I just did a battery test with some fully charged Powerex AAs (2.3AH each) and got 3hrs 45min of recording time, low volume stereo. Powering Telefunken M62 at 48V (you can set to 24V as well, haven't tried that yet- any comments there?) I'm pretty sure the phantom sucks more juice with high SPL shows but that's a pretty good baseline. I'd probably be able to get all of Phil but I'll swap out at set break and feel pretty safe with that. I use the Powerex charger which allows you to cycle the batteries at a programmable rate and number of cycles. I've found that a single cycle doesn't get you the full potential of the battery but takes up to 24 hours. Exited gracefully saving the files including the short one. Also just did a hot swap test starting with AAs, plugging in a little phone charger battery, pulling the AAs, then putting the AAs back in, pulling the charger all without losing recording. You don't have to hide a small phone charging battery, toss it in the tray going in.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2022, 08:53:07 PM by eman »
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Offline detroit lightning

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Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #160 on: June 02, 2022, 08:10:12 PM »
I just did a battery test with some fully charged Powerex AAs (2.3AH each) and got 3hrs 45min of recording time, low volume stereo. Powering Telefunken M62 at 48V (you can set to 24V as well, haven't tried that yet- any comments there?) I'm pretty sure the phantom sucks more juice with high SPL shows but that's a pretty good baseline. I'd probably be able to get all of Phil but I'll swap out at set break and feel pretty safe with that. I use the Powerex charger which allows you to cycle the batteries at a programmable rate and number of cycles. I've found that a single cycle doesn't get you the full potential of the battery but takes up to 24 hours.

I opted to just go with an external power source, but when I did some testing w/ Amazon & eneloop rechargeables I got about the same when supplying phantom power.

Offline detroit lightning

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Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #161 on: June 02, 2022, 08:47:26 PM »


I use a Mixpre 6 ii, but I reduce the gain on the WAV files to under clipping and dither to 24 bit to save as a master

Is it necessary to dither to 24bit? What is the benefit of doing that?

Interestingly re: levels/clipping, I've found levels to be a bit low thus far with the F3. Don't think it's a power issue, but I've had to boost levels so far. My understanding is that 32bit helps with that too, in terms of noise...but thats a bit out of my depth. Anyway, it sounds good.
Here is what you may (or may not) realize if your output is low or high...
Although gain is set on the F3 and cannot be changed, the output from the F3 (the volume level transferred from your F3 recording to your computer or whatever) that will show up when you transfer the file will be determined by what you set on the front screen of your F3 (the wave size showing). If you adjust your volume to be high when recording (big wave shows on screen), your output will be high. If you set it low (small wave shows on screen), your output will be low. It is not all that relevant as the gain has been set and the final product will not suffer whether your volume was set low or high, but it might make your post adjustments easier or harder. You cannot set or change the gain, but you can set or change the output file which is the volume of the wave file being transferred.

Lol, so I read through this thread several times & thought I understood that part of it, but clearly I didn’t!

Assuming the mics or setup isn’t being physically overloaded in any way, do we know if it’s better to have a BIG wave form that shows clipping (requiring lowering it in post) or have it say -24 and have to amplify in post?

Traditionally I know you don’t want to add any more gain than you have to, as you’re raising the volume on a lot of noise too…is that still the case w/32bit?

Anyway, thank you for finally helping me understand this!

Offline dallman

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Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #162 on: June 03, 2022, 09:10:53 AM »


I use a Mixpre 6 ii, but I reduce the gain on the WAV files to under clipping and dither to 24 bit to save as a master

Is it necessary to dither to 24bit? What is the benefit of doing that?

Interestingly re: levels/clipping, I've found levels to be a bit low thus far with the F3. Don't think it's a power issue, but I've had to boost levels so far. My understanding is that 32bit helps with that too, in terms of noise...but thats a bit out of my depth. Anyway, it sounds good.
Here is what you may (or may not) realize if your output is low or high...
Although gain is set on the F3 and cannot be changed, the output from the F3 (the volume level transferred from your F3 recording to your computer or whatever) that will show up when you transfer the file will be determined by what you set on the front screen of your F3 (the wave size showing). If you adjust your volume to be high when recording (big wave shows on screen), your output will be high. If you set it low (small wave shows on screen), your output will be low. It is not all that relevant as the gain has been set and the final product will not suffer whether your volume was set low or high, but it might make your post adjustments easier or harder. You cannot set or change the gain, but you can set or change the output file which is the volume of the wave file being transferred.

Lol, so I read through this thread several times & thought I understood that part of it, but clearly I didn’t!

Assuming the mics or setup isn’t being physically overloaded in any way, do we know if it’s better to have a BIG wave form that shows clipping (requiring lowering it in post) or have it say -24 and have to amplify in post?

Traditionally I know you don’t want to add any more gain than you have to, as you’re raising the volume on a lot of noise too…is that still the case w/32bit?

Anyway, thank you for finally helping me understand this!

It is tricky and simple, a different learning curve than we are used to.
As far as setting the wave file on the front of the F3, as it is just output volume, it does not matter how you set it, there is no difference, or to put it more simply, nothing you do is affecting the actual recording. I'd say personal preference. Whether the wave file is tiny or large, the recording gain is exactly the same. It is only the output which is after the recording , that is being affected by your settings. I like to set my F3 medium to larger, but it really is just personal preference and maybe with some post programs (I use sound forge) it may be easier reducing or enlarging.

As the gain is pre-set by the recorder, you are not introducing noise if you record with your output (the wave file you set then see on the front of the F3) looking very small.

I hope this helps.
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Offline Ozpeter

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Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #163 on: June 03, 2022, 09:40:09 AM »
At risk of being shot down by my elders and betters, I think this very recent article explains things very well.

https://www.wired.com/story/32-bit-float-audio-explained/

In my own head - FWIW -  I think of it like this.  Imagine you are looking at a track on a DAW, in other words, a graphical representation of the sound which looks like a kind of ribbon.  In 16 bit or 24 bit audio, that track or ribbon isn't very wide.  If your recording gain in the analog domain is wrongly set, your audio could go off the top of the ribbon, or off the bottom of it, losing data and/or causing distortion on the way.  But with 32 bit float, the track or ribbon is so wide that your audio is like a stripe running in the middle of the length of the ribbon.  The height of that audio stripe represents the difference between the lowest output of the analog part of the recording system (mic and preamp usually) and the highest possible output of that analog part.  But the height of it is very small compared with the height of the 32 bit float ribbon.  It doesn't matter where in relation to that ribbon it sits.  You'll never get the audio ribbon to get anywhere near the top of the 32 bit float ribbon, nor near the bottom.  You can set the "magnification" in the case of the F3 such that the audio sits a bit above the middle or a bit below, but it doesn't matter where.  When you process it in your DAW later, you will be feeding it into something akin to a 24 bit or 16 bit bottleneck - and you can at that point shift the stripe of audio data up a bit or down a bit on the overall 32 bit float ribbon so that it goes into the bottleneck at an optimum height.

I now await others to say "Actually, that's crap" or "that makes sense" or "I didn't understand a word of that and fell asleep reading it."  Time will tell.  Gulp.

mcfoster

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Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #164 on: June 03, 2022, 09:51:58 AM »
back to the battery life for a second. I got mine yesterday, and had a show to record last night, I used it as a second recorder luckily because the band needed the tracks for a video shoot/promo they are working on. I unboxed it, messed with it long enough to set it up, no more than an hour I don't think. Did a little test recoding for 30 minutes. Then I took it to the show, and it did not make it through the first set, which really suprised me. I had a battery swap ready for the second set. External will be ideal for this, or at worst a battery change before every set. Might be my rig? Akg CK3X>PFA's?

 

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