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Author Topic: Pondering Festival Setup  (Read 806 times)

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Offline checht

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Pondering Festival Setup
« on: May 27, 2022, 12:56:12 AM »
I'm recording/archiving the Sisters Rhythm and Brews fest this August as part of the production crew.
I have full stage and snake access along with a dedicated matrix for a 2 channel out. And usb out for multichannel to PC, but not sure if I want to go that route. (Maybe in addition)

Will bring mp6 & R-07, mk41s and a pair of Vanguard V1s I'm auditioning. They come with 4 capsules: cardioid, wide cardioid, hypercardioid, and omni.
https://www.vanguardaudiolabs.com/products/v1s-pencil-condenser-kit/

Wondering about deploying which mics where and in what configs, and interested in ideas.

Some initial thoughts include mk41s ortf at SBD and V1 omnis on stage, low enough to miss wedges. Or spaced V1 omnis or wide cards at SBD and mk41s ortf at 10' mid-stage center (kinda like uber-overhead sort of deployment.)
 
TIA
« Last Edit: May 27, 2022, 01:14:03 AM by checht »
Schoeps MK41s > nbob KCY >
Naiant PFA 60v > Sound Devices MP-6 II  or  Naiant IPA > Roland R-07
Vanguard V1s matched pair
Recordings at LMA

Offline kliked

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Re: Pondering Festival Setup
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2022, 12:47:35 PM »
Have you used those V1's yet?  Thats a lot of kit for the price.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Pondering Festival Setup
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2022, 03:36:23 PM »
Nice opportunity.  Depends..

In general I'd set things up so that each separately recorded element focuses on contributing something the others aren't focused on and may only contribute in a secondary way or not at all.

You have all the soundboard options you want, so I'd not waste a stereo mic pair focused on the PA, even though its the typical taper starting point.  Wide omnis or subcards at the soundboard will provide audience and ambience the SBD lacks, but so can mics on stage facing the audience and the energy and enthusiasm up close will be far greater and more involving. 

I'd probably forgo mics back at the board and place both pairs on-stage near the stage-lip.  One picking up band on stage, the other facing out into the audience.  Along with the board feed, that combination should stand wobble free and solid like a three legged stool, each contributing something complementary to the gumbo.

If the audience is up close to the stage, good to use a spaced configuration for the audience facing mics to help avoid highlighting specific audience members near the mic position.  Directional is good in reducing pickup of PA and stage sound, but not good if highlighting specific audience members.

Good to arrange things so as to sort of keep the audience out of the stage pair, stage out of the audience pair, and PA out of both (SBD = PA).

But that said, it would make sense to run wide omnis at the stagelip to provide nicely decorellated up-front engaged audience reaction, venue ambience, and solid bottom (watch out for overwhelming subs though) as well as some on stage "air", along with the mk41's center stage near-spaced or x/y capturing phase-coherent on-stage imaging and depth details.  That good old spaced omnis plus directional center pair one-two punch thing again.  Vox clarity will need to come from the SBD, but that's what SBD is really good at.
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Offline fireonshakedwnstreet

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Re: Pondering Festival Setup
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2022, 03:57:59 PM »
Those Vanguards look nice. Definitely would like to hear them!
Mics: AT 3031; AT 853Rx (c, o); CA-14(c); JVC M510; Naiant X-R (h); Studio Projects C4 (c, o, h); Nak 300
Recorders: Tascam DR-680 MkII; Tascam DR-70D; Tascam DR-5; Tascam DR-2D
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Offline checht

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Re: Pondering Festival Setup
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2022, 05:27:45 PM »
Have you used those V1's yet?  Thats a lot of kit for the price.

Not yet. Been considering them for a while, then saw them on Reverb mint for $450 for the pair and couldn't resist...

With guidance from the esteemed Gutbucket, I've put together an OMT4 setup for them, and will also use them onstage for bands I archive.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2022, 05:34:13 PM by checht »
Schoeps MK41s > nbob KCY >
Naiant PFA 60v > Sound Devices MP-6 II  or  Naiant IPA > Roland R-07
Vanguard V1s matched pair
Recordings at LMA

Offline checht

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Re: Pondering Festival Setup
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2022, 05:44:08 PM »
[snip]
But that said, it would make sense to run wide omnis at the stagelip to provide nicely decorellated up-front engaged audience reaction, venue ambience, and solid bottom (watch out for overwhelming subs though) as well as some on stage "air", along with the mk41's center stage near-spaced or x/y capturing phase-coherent on-stage imaging and depth details.  That good old spaced omnis plus directional center pair one-two punch thing again.  Vox clarity will need to come from the SBD, but that's what SBD is really good at.

Thank you for all the great info. Lots to consider. There is a crowd barrier that holds them 10-15' away from the stage. Still thinking wide omnis facing the house though. For practical reasons, probably best to have them widely spaced, at the edges. Would be 25' spaced I'd guess. OK?

For the center pair, inclined to go ortf with the mk41s, as I know and like that sound. Issue is proximity to wedges. Would setting them a bit back from the lip, towards the house in the barrier zone  help with balance?

Much appreciated!
Schoeps MK41s > nbob KCY >
Naiant PFA 60v > Sound Devices MP-6 II  or  Naiant IPA > Roland R-07
Vanguard V1s matched pair
Recordings at LMA

Offline fanofjam

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Re: Pondering Festival Setup
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2022, 09:12:37 PM »
Don't forget that it'll rain and blow, so make sure whatever you decide on, it can be protected.  Spaced omni's are tough to protect if they're exposed to the elements, especially if the wind kicks up and you've got a pair of umbrella's flying. 

Not sure how a festival rig can work on-stage when there's so much commotion going on between acts.  I wouldn't want my gear sitting on stage with 20 different roadies for every band flying around with their heads cut off, and kicking shit around like it's a tinker toy, unplugging everything in sight.  Stage lip might work cause you could keep it out of the way...but then you've got weather to worry about. 

I personally wouldn't be thinking about any on-stage or stage lip gear for a festival...for a single show, yes absolutely, but not for a festival.  And honestly, I'm not a fan of stage lip recordings anyway...they're just too hard to get any type of balanced sound between stage instruments and vocals. 

Have you ever stood at the rail during a festival...does it ever sound any good?  Answer...never (unless maybe it's a really low volume almost acoustic performance).

My opinions.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Pondering Festival Setup
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2022, 11:44:34 AM »
Quote
Have you ever stood at the rail during a festival...does it ever sound any good?  Answer...never (unless maybe it's a really low volume almost acoustic performance).

YMMV. I find it frequently does more and more often, and can be very rewarding especially for instrumental acts, but the key is to know when and where it is likely to work out and when its not.  Often fill speakers on stage facing the audience are the key, which may be distributed across the front like floor monitors turned 180-degrees to face the audience, or cross-firing into the center from either side.  In that case I find a clear line of sight to the fill speakers, the snare drum, instrument amps and other on-stage sources is important.  It can be a gamble, but you've just got to know when to hold 'em, when to fold 'em, when to walk away and when to run.

Last festival I recorded a month and a half ago or so, the two sets I enjoy the recordings from the most are those where I carried my rig over to the second stage and placed it up-front between the barrier and stage lip.  Granted, both were amplified instrumental acts, the stage featured small cross-firing fill-speakers on stage to illuminate the front audience area forward of main PA coverage, it was a relatively small fest situation, and I stayed up front with the rig for both of those sets.

This actually convinced me I should consider reverting my second rig-design focus from partially optimizing for recording from further back in typical taper style (easier) back to smaller lightweight rigs that I can more easily manage from up front where the good energy is happening, at least to accommodate the occasions where it makes sense and I'm willing to make that effort, because that's the fully engaged sound I really want to hear.

Of course as mentioned YMMV, and thank goodness we don't all like and pursue the same things, which would make for a rather boring, over-crowed world. 

Good points on dealing with stage-techs and rain!
« Last Edit: June 01, 2022, 12:36:58 AM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline fanofjam

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Re: Pondering Festival Setup
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2022, 11:45:56 PM »
Quote
Have you ever stood at the rail during a festival...does it ever sound any good?  Answer...never (unless maybe it's a really low volume almost acoustic performance).

YMMV. I find it frequently does more and more often, and can be very rewarding especially for instrumental acts, but the key is to know when and where it is likely to work out and when its not.  Often fill speakers on stage facing the audience are the key, which may be distributed across the front like floor monitors turned 108-degrees to face the audience, or cross-firing into the center from either side.  In that case I find a clear line of sight to the fill speakers, the snare drum, instrument amps and other on-stage sources is important.  It can be a gamble, but you've just got to know when to hold 'em, when to fold 'em, when to walk away and when to run.

Last festival I recorded a month and a half ago or so, the two sets I enjoy the recordings from the most are those where I carried my rig over to the second stage and placed it up-front between the barrier and stage lip.  Granted, both were amplified instrumental acts, the stage featured small cross-firing fill-speakers on stage to illuminate the front audience area forward of main PA coverage, it was a relatively small fest situation, and I stayed up front with the rig for both of those sets.

This actually convinced me I should consider reverting my second rig-design focus from partially optimizing for recording from further back in typical taper style (easier) back to smaller lightweight rigs that I can more easily manage from up front where the good energy is happening, at least to accommodate the occasions where it makes sense and I'm willing to make that effort, because that's the fully engaged sound I really want to hear.

Of course as mentioned YMMV, and thank goodness we don't all like and pursue the same things, which would make for a rather boring, over-crowed world. 

Good points on dealing with stage-techs and rain!

That's all good info Gut bucket.  As you point out the style of music is probably the key.  For those high energy acts that move lots of air through the subs, like lots of main stage acts, while it can be fun to be up close and feel the power, it's a challenging recording situation especially with vocals if they're only piped through the PAs.  But your point is well taken for the less volume-centric acts, and perhaps those bands performing on the smaller stages where there is better sound balance.

Offline eman

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Re: Pondering Festival Setup
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2022, 07:07:58 PM »
Most official releases use those stage audience facing mics and we know it doesn't quite give those recordings a feeling of being there. They just give several up close and loud people a special place in the mix. I prefer the audience perspective with mics not facing directly into peoples' faces to be a better feel for the venue, and hope for not too many whistlers and high clappers.   Also consider just using a memory stick in the board for the LR mix or even multitrack if they will allow it. Why bring more cables and recorder channels into it.
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Offline checht

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Re: Pondering Festival Setup
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2022, 07:31:11 PM »
Most official releases use those stage audience facing mics and we know it doesn't quite give those recordings a feeling of being there. They just give several up close and loud people a special place in the mix. I prefer the audience perspective with mics not facing directly into peoples' faces to be a better feel for the venue, and hope for not too many whistlers and high clappers.   Also consider just using a memory stick in the board for the LR mix or even multitrack if they will allow it. Why bring more cables and recorder channels into it.

Lots of nuggets in this one, thanks! If I bring a USB stick, that gives me 6 channels for mics. I like the sound of mk41s ortf at 10' mid-stage center (kinda like uber-overheads) as one pair that gets a bit of house but doesn't spotlight folks. A pair of spaced omnis at SBD. For the 3rd pair, maybe coincident supercards to fill the center of the omnis?
Schoeps MK41s > nbob KCY >
Naiant PFA 60v > Sound Devices MP-6 II  or  Naiant IPA > Roland R-07
Vanguard V1s matched pair
Recordings at LMA

 

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