Topic: Stealthy mic comparisons

[zowie]

I thought people might be interested in checking out this guy's samples, especially new tapers, since he has used a number of the entry/intermediate mics that people are often deciding between. 

There are not direct comparisons, but I thought it was particularly useful for highlighting the distinct sound of the "sennheiser-driven" MMs vs others (big difference -- explains vehement disagreement by some about which are "better").

http://www.dutchtaper.com/gear.php


(BTW: DutchTaper has posted here a few times.)

[Unitmonster]

thanks for this. interesting to check out. Especially interesting to compare the DPA's to the Sennheisers.  I honestly wonder why the 4061's get so much praise for aud taping in rock concert situations.  Of course the imaging is amazing, but lack of sound rejection is way too tough to work with IMO.  Of course if you were doing onstage taping with a quiet (classical, opera, some jazz) audience that's one thing, but otherwise, I don't see the point.  Compare the two knopfler recordings to see what I mean.

[shaggy]

Man, that Knopfler is awesome!  Those MM Senn are impressive.  I wished dutchtaper would record other smaller bands in clubs with that set up!

My hugest complaint with 406X is ambient pickup of chatter, shouters and wiggers.  But you know, if the crowd is quiet....they will sound better than even a pair of mk4s which are like 3 times more expensive.  I have made very impressive in-store recording with my DPAs....the MMA6000 pre really is a stunning piece of gear.  In time, DPA will develop a better minature card...at least better than the 4071. 

[Evil Taper]

DPA is supposed to introde a card in the same breed as the 4061s sometime in the near future.  As for why the 4061s get so much hype in the stealth world?  They're realistic sounding, they're tiny, they're easy to power and they don't get overloaded by bass or spl ever.  In the right situation they'll smoke those sennheisers easily, but for chatty shows they can suck.  For what it's worth any mics will pick up chatter when the people standing next to you are chatty.  Yeah yeah, fluffing my own gear....sorry.

[sullen]

Also, mind you, this person never used DAT+4061, i believe all his recordings with the DPA are MD, so really not comparable at all.


that said. im impressed with the Shure and Senn, and to switch from 4061, says alot...


Good Thread! +T

[sullen]

PS:

anyone know what capsule is in these:
MM-HLSC-2 HighLine Sennheiser Driven Cardioid

??

[Humbug]

All info on "microphone madness" mics are here:

http://www.microphonemadness.com/

and the specific mics mentioned:

http://www.microphonemadness.com/products/mmhigsencars1.htm

Constructed with state of the art components, tooled, machined and assembled by Microphone Madness, these microphones display extreme warmth in sound quality that is truely amazing! The microphone elements are of the "Sennheiser" Battleship Line, a perfectly matched set! These microphones are detailed down to the steel mesh grills at the top of each microphone. Overall housing dimension are 7/16" wide x 7/8" long. Each microphone comes with a heavy duty windscreen. The (MM-HLSC-2) does "not" come with holding clips! Exiting each housing is double shielded premium microphone cable, each 6 foot long, that terminate into a 1/8 inch (3.5mm) connector.

I'm pretty impressed too, that he dropped DPA4061s in favour of these mics. Saying that, not everyone here likes the sound of DPA4061s..I love them only if the venue acoustics are great and the audience well behaved.

[Unitmonster]

I love them only if the venue acoustics are great and the audience well behaved.

Exactly my point.  That disqualifies about 80% of the shows I attend.   

I mean hell, even at the jazz show I saw a couple of weeks ago, two guys were constantly whispering back and forth behind me.  If my mics had picked that up, especially in crystal clear clarity, I would have been pissed.

[zowie]

Let's also bear in mind that the DPAs cost much more.

There's a lot of things I like about the MM Senn's and I'm thinking of buying a pair.  But there's something I don't like that I can't put my finger on.  It's like they're too smooth.  The midrange reminds me of those big cushiony 1970s headphones.

[Dutchtaper]

Just noticed this thread (thanks John), if anyone has any specific questions about my taping gear I'd be more than happy to answer them. I dropped the DPA mics because they pick up too much ambient noise for my taste, and they are too expensive to hold on to just for that one show a year that is held in a venue with nice acoustics. They are small though, REALLY small. After that I switched to Shure MX185 cardioid mics. I picked those mainly because I like the brand and they are not used by many people. The results were excellent, the best being Neil Young 2001-07-24, one of my best recordings. But when I recorded Roxette (yeah I know, shoot me), the Shure mics couldn't handle the SPL. So once again I was looking for a replacement, my main objective being to find mics that were relatively unknown yet of nice quality. I was trying to avoid the AT mics that everybody seems to use. I ended up with the MM mics, so far I have been happy with them, no SPL problems anymore and they produce a nice sound.

I've got to mention though that I do some postprocessing on my recordings, but usually only some EQ'ing.

And as far as recorders go, my personal experience is that the difference between a DAT and a MD recording is very small, as long as the transfer is done properly. Sure, a big difference probably can be heard if you know where to listen and have a pro-setup, but the mics are FAR more important to the sound of a recording.

Currently I don't have a recorder actually, I'm away from home for 6 months (I'm currently in Pittsburgh USA) and I sold my Edirol, knowing that M-Audio was releasing a new device. I forgot the exact name, 2496 or something? Anyway, I'm looking to buy that one sometime soon.

[rdvdijk]

After that I switched to Shure MX185 cardioid mics. I picked those mainly because I like the brand and they are not used by many people. The results were excellent, the best being Neil Young 2001-07-24, one of my best recordings.

Currently I don't have a recorder actually, I'm away from home for 6 months (I'm currently in Pittsburgh USA) and I sold my Edirol, knowing that M-Audio was releasing a new device. I forgot the exact name, 2496 or something? Anyway, I'm looking to buy that one sometime soon.

Personally, I found your Shure's a bit "too cardioid". There is one of your Neil Young tapes that sounds like you're recording from the inside of a big tube and the source of sound is at the other end. It sounds *excellent* during the music, but the audience sounds are a bit freaky. Do you understand? (thanks for the Neil Young recordings, by the way, all are great)

Be sure to read up on the Microtrack 2496 on this forum, plenty of interesting threads going on. M-Audio is actually taking advice from everybody here and working on another firmware update as-we-speak.

Roel

[Evil Taper]

Honestly, the 4061s don't pick up that much crowd noise unless you're standing next to someone whose talking, but that's when you move.  It's just a matter of taste, omnis rub some people the wrong way.  I can tell you that I'm not buying any more cards until I can get something on the upper rungs of the mic ladder.  Most cardiod mics don't sound natural until you EQ the recordings, and then you're not accurately representing the sound of the mics anyway.  They do create a more pleasurable listen on crappy stereos, but a good omni tape has a live feel and pressence that you'll never achieve with any cards.  It's mostly a matter of personal taste so use what sounds good to your ears.  I preffer clarity and realistic sound representation over good car stereo playback.  Any rig has it's own distinct characteristics so buyers beware.

[nickgregory]

Honestly, the 4061s don't pick up that much crowd noise unless you're standing next to someone whose talking, but that's when you move.  It's just a matter of taste, omnis rub some people the wrong way.  I can tell you that I'm not buying any more cards until I can get something on the upper rungs of the mic ladder.  Most cardiod mics don't sound natural until you EQ the recordings, and then you're not accurately representing the sound of the mics anyway.  They do create a more pleasurable listen on crappy stereos, but a good omni tape has a live feel and pressence that you'll never achieve with any cards.  It's mostly a matter of personal taste so use what sounds good to your ears.  I preffer clarity and realistic sound representation over good car stereo playback.  Any rig has it's own distinct characteristics so buyers beware.

"Most cardiod mics don't sound natural until you EQ the recordings"....or that you need to listen on a crappy stereo for cards to sound good are two completely absurd stateements.  Omnis need perfect circumstances to not be too boomy sounding in my experience, whereas cards are alot more forgiving.  Hell I would put the 4022s up against any omni mic and the 4022s would win out in all but a very few circumstances, where the omnis may have every characteristic right to make a good tape.   And fwiw, my playback is not put together with nickels and dimes

[sml42]

"It's mostly a matter of personal taste". Indeed it is, and I happen to be a fan of the (omni) 406x sound - specifically my 4060 in stealth (HRTF) You're right, cards are a lot more forgiving but I value the transparency of my 4060 and the fact that they pick up exactly what I'm hearing on the night. Your challenge, should you accept it, is to find the sweet spot (and anyway, if the sound isn't right on the night then heck, my mojo has already been ruined for the evening!)

[scb]

Most cardiod mics don't sound natural until you EQ the recordings, and then you're not accurately representing the sound of the mics anyway.  They do create a more pleasurable listen on crappy stereos, but a good omni tape has a live feel and pressence that you'll never achieve with any cards.  It's mostly a matter of personal taste so use what sounds good to your ears.  I preffer clarity and realistic sound representation over good car stereo playback.  Any rig has it's own distinct characteristics so buyers beware.

i find my rig (dpa cards) to have great clarity and a very realistic sound representation, both in th car and on home playback

You're right, cards are a lot more forgiving but I value the transparency of my 4060 and the fact that they pick up exactly what I'm hearing on the night. Your challenge, should you accept it, is to find the sweet spot (and anyway, if the sound isn't right on the night then heck, my mojo has already been ruined for the evening!)

i value the transparency of my 4022s and the fact that they pick up exactly what i'm hearing on the night

[Evil Taper]

I guess I should clarify to "stealth cards".  There's only a handful of folks here who have really nice stealth card rigs with the active MBHO/Schoepps/DPA/Neumann rigs.  In my experience with stealth cards they pick up all this bottom end that doesn't sound natural and you have to EQ it like you're mixing a master.  There's definately certain venues where I wish I had a really nice set of cards at, but I'll take transparency and clarity over less crowd noise or bass.  It's all personal taste and I'm just putting my neck out there to give you something to consider.  However, if you're taping something like an acoustic or jazz band, the 4061s will smoke the show for sure.  There's ideal situations for everything.  I'm just not owning any more cards until I can afford some Neumann/MBHO/Schoepps/DPA/Pelusso guns.  If DPA actually does release cards the size of the 4061s that sound good though, I think everyone stealthing will jump on those.  They're small enough to the point where even if you're in the first row the performers aren't going to notice them.  What more could a stealth taper ask for?

[sml42]

Most cardiod mics don't sound natural until you EQ the recordings, and then you're not accurately representing the sound of the mics anyway.  They do create a more pleasurable listen on crappy stereos, but a good omni tape has a live feel and pressence that you'll never achieve with any cards.  It's mostly a matter of personal taste so use what sounds good to your ears.  I preffer clarity and realistic sound representation over good car stereo playback.  Any rig has it's own distinct characteristics so buyers beware.

i find my rig (dpa cards) to have great clarity and a very realistic sound representation, both in th car and on home playback

You're right, cards are a lot more forgiving but I value the transparency of my 4060 and the fact that they pick up exactly what I'm hearing on the night. Your challenge, should you accept it, is to find the sweet spot (and anyway, if the sound isn't right on the night then heck, my mojo has already been ruined for the evening!)

i value the transparency of my 4022s and the fact that they pick up exactly what i'm hearing on the night

Okay, how about this then - I believe omnis give a more accurate representation of the sound hitting my ears, my rationale being my ears don't point forward at 110*

[shaggy]

I am gonna get scorched for this one but here goes. It IS a matter of personal taste....I really haven't heard many 402X shows that I want to listen to on a repeat basis.  Maybe I like bright mics, but they never have that lively sparkle and seem even more prone to the need to be in the sweet spot.  I think most far field work requires a bit of rise in the 5-8Khz range to make them have more presence....but this is just my amateur opinion, (in my best James Doohan voice) 'I am a scientist, not a audio engineer'.

That being said, the little informative webpage that dutchtaper has put up has really opened up my eyes to the MM sub $500 pair of card mics.  They still suffer a little of what the cheap stealth sets all suffer from (and it could very well be the MP3 compression), lask of zippy transient detail.

+T dutchtaper for your efforts and bold move to the MM cards.

[nickgregory]

I really haven't heard many 402X shows that I want to listen to on a repeat basis.

then you havent heard the right tapes

In all seriousness, the 4022s absolutley have to be run FOB, if someone is running them in a section the results are going to be extremely underwhelming, but up front, they absolutely shine...back to the theory that I know subscribe to that if my seats require me to have hypers, then I need to get better seats. 

[George]

Most cardiod mics don't sound natural until you EQ the recordings, and then you're not accurately representing the sound of the mics anyway.  They do create a more pleasurable listen on crappy stereos, but a good omni tape has a live feel and pressence that you'll never achieve with any cards.  It's mostly a matter of personal taste so use what sounds good to your ears.  I preffer clarity and realistic sound representation over good car stereo playback.  Any rig has it's own distinct characteristics so buyers beware.

i find my rig (dpa cards) to have great clarity and a very realistic sound representation, both in th car and on home playback

You're right, cards are a lot more forgiving but I value the transparency of my 4060 and the fact that they pick up exactly what I'm hearing on the night. Your challenge, should you accept it, is to find the sweet spot (and anyway, if the sound isn't right on the night then heck, my mojo has already been ruined for the evening!)

i value the transparency of my 4022s and the fact that they pick up exactly what i'm hearing on the night

Did you happen to tape a def leppard show with those 4022's?  I remember seeing a show on my hd and it was your recording (i recall you saying something about it being really loud and the highs were a bit drowned out in the txt).

Anyway, that show sounded great, really woke me up to the dpa's which i'm seriously considering switching over to in the new year.   

[KingReptile]

Honestly, the 4061s don't pick up that much crowd noise unless you're standing next to someone whose talking, but that's when you move.  It's just a matter of taste, omnis rub some people the wrong way.  I can tell you that I'm not buying any more cards until I can get something on the upper rungs of the mic ladder.  Most cardiod mics don't sound natural until you EQ the recordings, and then you're not accurately representing the sound of the mics anyway.  They do create a more pleasurable listen on crappy stereos, but a good omni tape has a live feel and pressence that you'll never achieve with any cards.  It's mostly a matter of personal taste so use what sounds good to your ears.  I preffer clarity and realistic sound representation over good car stereo playback.  Any rig has it's own distinct characteristics so buyers beware.

"Most cardiod mics don't sound natural until you EQ the recordings"....or that you need to listen on a crappy stereo for cards to sound good are two completely absurd stateements.  Omnis need perfect circumstances to not be too boomy sounding in my experience, whereas cards are alot more forgiving.  Hell I would put the 4022s up against any omni mic and the 4022s would win out in all but a very few circumstances, where the omnis may have every characteristic right to make a good tape.   And fwiw, my playback is not put together with nickels and dimes

Oh yeah  ...I am gonna have to load my Judas Priest up ..It will deflate many egos and well wishers 

[poorlyconditioned]

Honestly, the 4061s don't pick up that much crowd noise unless you're standing next to someone whose talking, but that's when you move.  It's just a matter of taste, omnis rub some people the wrong way.  I can tell you that I'm not buying any more cards until I can get something on the upper rungs of the mic ladder.  Most cardiod mics don't sound natural until you EQ the recordings, and then you're not accurately representing the sound of the mics anyway.  They do create a more pleasurable listen on crappy stereos, but a good omni tape has a live feel and pressence that you'll never achieve with any cards.  It's mostly a matter of personal taste so use what sounds good to your ears.  I preffer clarity and realistic sound representation over good car stereo playback.  Any rig has it's own distinct characteristics so buyers beware.

I agree with you the omnis sound most natural.  But sometimes you don't want that.  When I tape in crappy rooms I leave my headphones/monitors on with a mix of SBD + AUD.  It actually sounds better than what I hear from my seat.  And it is quieter too!  Sort of like an inverse hearing aid...

But, yes, for good sounding rooms, omnis sound great.  I have a few shows recorded with both cards (AT853, XY) and omnis (MKE2, HRTF).  I like the cards for listesting on my stereo speakers, and the omnis for listening in headphones.

  Richard

[KingReptile]

This is in no way a shot at you Nick..I have heard some nice 4022 tapes the lowend can be incredible,..I havent made any boomy tapes with my setup but I sure have heard a few..Its all personal flavor i guess,I think the 4061's are a bit more detalied on the high end they really pick up the cymbals...

[nickgregory]

This is in no way a shot at you Nick..I have heard some nice 4022 tapes the lowend can be incredible,..I havent made any boomy tapes with my setup but I sure have heard a few..Its all personal flavor i guess,I think the 4061's are a bit more detalied on the high end they really pick up the cymbals...

no worries, everyone has an opnion and hears things differently....I am not knocking the 4061 tapes at all, I am just rebuffing the belief that omnis beat cards and the cards need EQ'ing to be listenable...because my experience has been the opposite...and this is not as a section taper...but as you say I have heard some fantastic 4061 tapes...I think there are way too many other variables (venue, sound guy, crowd, location, levels being set right, band) some of which that we have no control over to draw real comparisons from...

[zowie]

And this is why any professional engineer keeps many different mics at his disposal.

[KingReptile]

This is in no way a shot at you Nick..I have heard some nice 4022 tapes the lowend can be incredible,..I havent made any boomy tapes with my setup but I sure have heard a few..Its all personal flavor i guess,I think the 4061's are a bit more detalied on the high end they really pick up the cymbals...

no worries, everyone has an opnion and hears things differently....I am not knocking the 4061 tapes at all, I am just rebuffing the belief that omnis beat cards and the cards need EQ'ing to be listenable...because my experience has been the opposite...and this is not as a section taper...but as you say I have heard some fantastic 4061 tapes...I think there are way too many other variables (venue, sound guy, crowd, location, levels being set right, band) some of which that we have no control over to draw real comparisons from...

Thats what makes us all unique ...

[Evil Taper]

You guys are right on.  The 4061s are a bit more dependant on the room than cards will ever be, but they do sound how the room sounded for that night.  I know I've made a couple of pretty nice stealths with the 4061s and a couple of not so great ones too.  If the room is boomy, guess what, so is your tape.  In particular there's a venue when the bass guitar just growls instead of sings and that's no good for taping with any mics, but at least I know I'm not gonna get clipping and shit like I got with my AT853s.  Sometimes it's a trade off in detail and clarity over a pleasurable sounding tape, but at least it's an accurate representation of the sound.  I'm not totally gung ho on my 4061 by any means either.  For stealthing they do a friggin nice job and can't be matched until you get to the high end mic selections.  Yet, I'm gonna invest in some sweet cards when I get the cash together, so there's a time and place for everything.

[scb]

This is in no way a shot at you Nick..I have heard some nice 4022 tapes the lowend can be incredible,..I havent made any boomy tapes with my setup but I sure have heard a few..Its all personal flavor i guess,I think the 4061's are a bit more detalied on the high end they really pick up the cymbals...

i've owned both , and i no longer own the 4061s, so that tells you what i like

[Von Recklinhausen]

I agree with you the omnis sound most natural.  But sometimes you don't want that.  When I tape in crappy rooms I leave my headphones/monitors on with a mix of SBD + AUD.  It actually sounds better than what I hear from my seat.  And it is quieter too!  Sort of like an inverse hearing aid...

But, yes, for good sounding rooms, omnis sound great.  I have a few shows recorded with both cards (AT853, XY) and omnis (MKE2, HRTF).  I like the cards for listesting on my stereo speakers, and the omnis for listening in headphones.

  Richard

[/quote]

I was looking for an owner of the Sennheiser MKE2. Are you happy with them? How do they compare with the omnis AT943 (SP-CMC-8) and with the DPA 4061? I am considering strongly to buy some of the Sennheiser MKE2, so I would be very grateful  to know your oppinion about them.

[poorlyconditioned]

I agree with you the omnis sound most natural.  But sometimes you don't want that.  When I tape in crappy rooms I leave my headphones/monitors on with a mix of SBD + AUD.  It actually sounds better than what I hear from my seat.  And it is quieter too!  Sort of like an inverse hearing aid...

But, yes, for good sounding rooms, omnis sound great.  I have a few shows recorded with both cards (AT853, XY) and omnis (MKE2, HRTF).  I like the cards for listesting on my stereo speakers, and the omnis for listening in headphones.

  Richard

I was looking for an owner of the Sennheiser MKE2. Are you happy with them? How do they compare with the omnis AT943 (SP-CMC-8) and with the DPA 4061? I am considering strongly to buy some of the Sennheiser MKE2, so I would be very grateful  to know your oppinion about them.
[/quote]

The Senn MKE2 sound fine, but I don't have AT943(O) or DPA4061 to compare with!  I'm sure DPA are the best, but I don't know how close they are.

By the way, make sure to get the 3-wire version of the MKE2.  Otherwise they may distort at high sound levels.

Really, unless you've got a killer deal on  the MKE2 (I got mine for $52USD each) you should just go for the DPA if you have money, or the AT943 if you don't.
Oh yeah, the AT943 have removeable caps, which is a *huge* advantage here.  Obviously some of us prefer cardioids, at least in some rooms!

  Richard

[zowie]

I happened to switch from my usual walk-around earbuds, Shure E2c's, to some Senn MX400's I haven't used in quite a while.  Guess what?  The difference in tonal balance was similar to that of the Shure vs. Senn small cap mics.

[larrysellers]

MM-HLSC-1 - I've been using these for about 6 weeks (and as many shows) and I have really been impressed. I don't know if I would fork over the retail for the mics and bb set but Hammerhorror gave me a great deal on these, barely used. I don't know if I like these better than my at933, could be just digging the different sound.

[Von Recklinhausen]

I agree with you the omnis sound most natural.  But sometimes you don't want that.  When I tape in crappy rooms I leave my headphones/monitors on with a mix of SBD + AUD.  It actually sounds better than what I hear from my seat.  And it is quieter too!  Sort of like an inverse hearing aid...

But, yes, for good sounding rooms, omnis sound great.  I have a few shows recorded with both cards (AT853, XY) and omnis (MKE2, HRTF).  I like the cards for listesting on my stereo speakers, and the omnis for listening in headphones.

  Richard

I was looking for an owner of the Sennheiser MKE2. Are you happy with them? How do they compare with the omnis AT943 (SP-CMC-8) and with the DPA 4061? I am considering strongly to buy some of the Sennheiser MKE2, so I would be very grateful  to know your oppinion about them.

The Senn MKE2 sound fine, but I don't have AT943(O) or DPA4061 to compare with!  I'm sure DPA are the best, but I don't know how close they are.

By the way, make sure to get the 3-wire version of the MKE2.  Otherwise they may distort at high sound levels.

Really, unless you've got a killer deal on  the MKE2 (I got mine for $52USD each) you should just go for the DPA if you have money, or the AT943 if you don't.
Oh yeah, the AT943 have removeable caps, which is a *huge* advantage here.  Obviously some of us prefer cardioids, at least in some rooms!

  Richard

[/quote]

Just one more question: Is the MKE2 from Microphone Madness a 3-wire version? They specify a SPL of 130 dB without a battery box

[poorlyconditioned]

I agree with you the omnis sound most natural.  But sometimes you don't want that.  When I tape in crappy rooms I leave my headphones/monitors on with a mix of SBD + AUD.  It actually sounds better than what I hear from my seat.  And it is quieter too!  Sort of like an inverse hearing aid...

But, yes, for good sounding rooms, omnis sound great.  I have a few shows recorded with both cards (AT853, XY) and omnis (MKE2, HRTF).  I like the cards for listesting on my stereo speakers, and the omnis for listening in headphones.

  Richard

I was looking for an owner of the Sennheiser MKE2. Are you happy with them? How do they compare with the omnis AT943 (SP-CMC-8) and with the DPA 4061? I am considering strongly to buy some of the Sennheiser MKE2, so I would be very grateful  to know your oppinion about them.

The Senn MKE2 sound fine, but I don't have AT943(O) or DPA4061 to compare with!  I'm sure DPA are the best, but I don't know how close they are.

By the way, make sure to get the 3-wire version of the MKE2.  Otherwise they may distort at high sound levels.

Really, unless you've got a killer deal on  the MKE2 (I got mine for $52USD each) you should just go for the DPA if you have money, or the AT943 if you don't.
Oh yeah, the AT943 have removeable caps, which is a *huge* advantage here.  Obviously some of us prefer cardioids, at least in some rooms!

  Richard

Just one more question: Is the MKE2 from Microphone Madness a 3-wire version? They specify a SPL of 130 dB without a battery box
[/quote]

I don't know if it is two or three wire.  Hmm.  Without a special batt. box it must be two-wire version.

  Richard

[larrysellers]

2 wire terminated in 1/8 stereo. It is my understanding that they are manufactured independent of the mke2 series, supposedly a proprietary capsule manufactured for MM (but prob. Based on an existing Senn. Capsule).