Topic: newbie , buying a portable recorder

[Vidra]

Hi

I'm going to buy a portable recorder, and use it strictly (at first at least) with built-in microphones, for recording various machinery such a trains, trucks, etc. Those can be pretty loud things.

Just so you know where I'm coming from (what my expectations are):
So far I've been recording with a Sony digital camcorder with its built in mics.
As you can imagine, the quality was not so great. I haven't actually seen any clipping in waveforms, but it sounded a bit "resonant" in high tones, and the AGC was breathing all the time, so I'm looking to upgrade to something better.

The options I have now are Edirol R-09 and R-01, Microtrack24/96, and Zoom H4.

I want a nice "open" clear sound (sharp sounds captured clearly, but not as "resonant" as what I had with the camcorder),  as good SPL handling as I can get out of these options, being able to turn off AGC, but still have some kind of anti-clipping options at disposal if I chose to.

Well, in a nutshell, I want something that is great at capturing all the details and nuances of such industrial sounds (picture a diesel freight train, and what It takes to capture it) and can best handle the loud levels.

I know you can't get it all from just using built in mics, but I would like to hear which of these options is best
for what I need it. The lesser of evils, if you will.

[Vidra]

Nobody used any of these?

[Roving Sign]

Nobody used any of these?

"Everybody" uses the devices listed - I think there only a few of us who are familiar with the kind of recording you are doing...hence the sparse replies.

I think the H4s mics are cardioid and the R9s are omni...something to consider.

Also H4 has a few mic modeling settings that might be useful...

[Krispy D]

Pretty sure ( don't use one) the microtrack doesn't have built in mics.  I think it comes with a really crappy plug in T mic.  you'd be better of with the others IMO.

+T for taping!

[Church-Audio]

Hi

I'm going to buy a portable recorder, and use it strictly (at first at least) with built-in microphones, for recording various machinery such a trains, trucks, etc. Those can be pretty loud things.

Just so you know where I'm coming from (what my expectations are):
So far I've been recording with a Sony digital camcorder with its built in mics.
As you can imagine, the quality was not so great. I haven't actually seen any clipping in waveforms, but it sounded a bit "resonant" in high tones, and the AGC was breathing all the time, so I'm looking to upgrade to something better.

The options I have now are Edirol R-09 and R-01, Microtrack24/96, and Zoom H4.

I want a nice "open" clear sound (sharp sounds captured clearly, but not as "resonant" as what I had with the camcorder),  as good SPL handling as I can get out of these options, being able to turn off AGC, but still have some kind of anti-clipping options at disposal if I chose to.

Well, in a nutshell, I want something that is great at capturing all the details and nuances of such industrial sounds (picture a diesel freight train, and what It takes to capture it) and can best handle the loud levels.

I know you can't get it all from just using built in mics, but I would like to hear which of these options is best
for what I need it. The lesser of evils, if you will.

I think its hard to answer the question with out knowing what mics you intend to use or want to use with this recorder...

I would go with the edirol It has the best performance IMO out of the three you mention... But you might have to get an external preamp.. Of some kind to possibly attenuate/power the mics you want to use..

[Vidra]

Thanks for the answers.

I know not many people use rec equipment for recording machinery, but I thought It might be usefull to say what it is for. I guess the most similar music analogy would be recording live music, like rock etc. It's probably not as loud as rock concerts, but It's nice to have some headroom.

So I guess I'll rephrase my question. Which of these options would best handle loud levels, like rock concerts etc.

I'm pretty much leaning to Edirol at the moment. I have a feeling that omnidirectional mics will be easier to "preview" by ear. In other words, more similar to what ears hear, and have less to worry about angles and placement. Am I wrong?

Also, I've heard Zoom h4  doesn't alow you to change gain while recording.
Which is something that is very important for me. I don't know the levels of what I'm going to record usually, and have no chance for testing, so I'm probably going to use the graphic monitor a lot and adjust the levels on the go.

I think Edirol has a diode that flashes when its clipping, and can change levels during a recording.
If zoom can't do that. I think that's a big minus for the Zoom h4 for me.

What I'm suspicious about when it comes to edirol is that I've read somewhere that it has a less "open" sound from the built in mics, and that Zoom h4 sounds a bit "clearer", but I guess you can EQ the difference, as long as all frequencies are being recorded.
Also, someone said that Edirol sounds a bit "grainy". That's also something I'm currious about.

I love a big atmospheric soundscape, but I'm worried that Edirol will pick up a little too much of it.
I'll be recording a lot of engines, from trucks, buses etc. And perhapse, on the street it will pick up too much
tire sounds from the environment of passing cars, etc.

[Church-Audio]

Thanks for the answers.

I know not many people use rec equipment for recording machinery, but I thought It might be usefull to say what it is for. I guess the most similar music analogy would be recording live music, like rock etc. It's probably not as loud as rock concerts, but It's nice to have some headroom.

So I guess I'll rephrase my question. Which of these options would best handle loud levels, like rock concerts etc.

I'm pretty much leaning to Edirol at the moment. I have a feeling that omnidirectional mics will be easier to "preview" by ear. In other words, more similar to what ears hear, and have less to worry about angles and placement. And I wrong?

Also, I've heard Zoom h4  doesn't alow you to change gain while recording.
Which is something that is very important for me. I don't know the levels of what I'm going to record usually, and have no chance for testing, so I'm probably going to use the graphic monitor a lot and adjust the levels on the go.

I think Edirol has a diode that flashes when its clipping, and can change levels during a recording.
If zoom can't do that. I think that's a big minus for the Zoom h4 for me.

If your recording trains you will have to get some sort of high pass filter ( bass roll off ) because your omni mics will pick up a lot of low end. Also you have to consider where you want to be able to play this back if you want to listen thru headphones omni is good if you want to listen thru speakers you will need a baffle like a Jeklin disk in order to get your image right for playback on speakers.

[Vidra]

I'm mostly use hi-fi headphones for listening. Rarely use speakers.
I'm not worried about having a realistic stereo image, as long as it sounds nice and airy.
I'd rather have a little wider stereo image, than one that is too much centered.

about the bass, is it something that can be EQ-ed out later, or will it affect other frequencies?


p.s. you replied before I had the chance to edit my post, so can you please reread it, there were some parts added later

thanks

[Church-Audio]

I'm mostly use hi-fi headphones for listening. Rarely use speakers.
I'm not worried about having a realistic stereo image, as long as it sounds nice and airy.
I'd rather have a little wider stereo image, than one that is too much centered.

about the bass, is it something that can be EQ-ed out later, or will it affect other frequencies?


p.s. you replied before I had the chance to edit my post, so can you please reread it, there were some parts added later

thanks

Built in mics in any of these products will only get you so far.. And they are not omni mics inside these products they are cardioid. I would strongly suggest you go with a set of external mics.. For this application.

Chris Church

[guysonic]

I'm mostly use hi-fi headphones for listening. Rarely use speakers.
I'm not worried about having a realistic stereo image, as long as it sounds nice and airy.
I'd rather have a little wider stereo image, than one that is too much centered.

about the bass, is it something that can be EQ-ed out later, or will it affect other frequencies?


p.s. you replied before I had the chance to edit my post, so can you please reread it, there were some parts added later

thanks

You might want to compare ambient sound recordings using the R-09 with external headworn omni mics/pre of rolling thunder, nature sounds, and freight/Amtrack trains on page www.sonicstudios.com/mp3.htm

[Church-Audio]

I'm mostly use hi-fi headphones for listening. Rarely use speakers.
I'm not worried about having a realistic stereo image, as long as it sounds nice and airy.
I'd rather have a little wider stereo image, than one that is too much centered.

about the bass, is it something that can be EQ-ed out later, or will it affect other frequencies?


p.s. you replied before I had the chance to edit my post, so can you please reread it, there were some parts added later

thanks


The bass will be so intense you should have some kind of filter before you record it. I have recorded many trains.. And I know that with omni mics you will need a HPF bass roll off.

[Vidra]

I'm mostly use hi-fi headphones for listening. Rarely use speakers.
I'm not worried about having a realistic stereo image, as long as it sounds nice and airy.
I'd rather have a little wider stereo image, than one that is too much centered.

about the bass, is it something that can be EQ-ed out later, or will it affect other frequencies?


p.s. you replied before I had the chance to edit my post, so can you please reread it, there were some parts added later

thanks

Built in mics in any of these products will only get you so far.. And they are not omni mics inside these products they are cardioid. I would strongly suggest you go with a set of external mics.. For this application.

Chris Church

Maybe one day, but I simply can't pay it right now no matter how better it sounds.
All I want for now is a decent amateur-quality sound.

By the way, the mics in Edirol, are omni, at least that's what the specs say

[Church-Audio]

I'm mostly use hi-fi headphones for listening. Rarely use speakers.
I'm not worried about having a realistic stereo image, as long as it sounds nice and airy.
I'd rather have a little wider stereo image, than one that is too much centered.

about the bass, is it something that can be EQ-ed out later, or will it affect other frequencies?


p.s. you replied before I had the chance to edit my post, so can you please reread it, there were some parts added later

thanks

Built in mics in any of these products will only get you so far.. And they are not omni mics inside these products they are cardioid. I would strongly suggest you go with a set of external mics.. For this application.

Chris Church

Maybe one day, but I simply can't pay it right now no matter how better it sounds.
All I want for now is a decent amateur-quality sound.

By the way, the mics in Edirol, are omni, at least that's what the specs say

As far as I know the mics are Cardioid I read the specs and it says nothing about omni directional Just thought you would like to know.. I am sure other users of the Edirol will chime in. Omni mics would not work too sell inside a housing where the mics are so closely spaced..

[Vidra]

The actual specs on the site say nothing either way, but if you listen to the promotional video on their site, the woman says they are omnidirectional, also if you look at this pamphlet:

http://www.rolandus.com/uploads/CMS/Downloads/1977/r_09_pamphlet.pdf

the polar pattern shows its an omnidirectional, though the field is "crippled" probably due to the actual body of the recorded

also, google Edirol R-09, omnidirectional, you'll find a lot of places mentioned its an omni

[Church-Audio]

The actual specs on the site say nothing either way, but if you listen to the promotional video on their site, the woman says they are omnidirectional, also if you look at this pamphlet:

http://www.rolandus.com/uploads/CMS/Downloads/1977/r_09_pamphlet.pdf

the polar pattern shows its an omnidirectional, though the field is "crippled" probably due to the actual body of the recorded

also, google Edirol R-09, omnidirectional, you'll find a lot of places mentioned its an omni

I still have my doubts about it being omnidirectional... If it is they are using the housing of the edirol to avoid phase cancellation.. If anyone has opened up the edirol and knows if the capsules are omni or not please let me know..

Chris Church

[poorlyconditioned]

The actual specs on the site say nothing either way, but if you listen to the promotional video on their site, the woman says they are omnidirectional, also if you look at this pamphlet:

http://www.rolandus.com/uploads/CMS/Downloads/1977/r_09_pamphlet.pdf

the polar pattern shows its an omnidirectional, though the field is "crippled" probably due to the actual body of the recorded

also, google Edirol R-09, omnidirectional, you'll find a lot of places mentioned its an omni

I still have my doubts about it being omnidirectional... If it is they are using the housing of the edirol to avoid phase cancellation.. If anyone has opened up the edirol and knows if the capsules are omni or not please let me know..

Chris Church

Not opened yet, but I'm tempted...

I'm tempted to put a pair of AT853 in there.  God knows I've got enough of these things!  I almost bought another pair today, but was outbid by someone.

  Richard

[Church-Audio]

The actual specs on the site say nothing either way, but if you listen to the promotional video on their site, the woman says they are omnidirectional, also if you look at this pamphlet:

http://www.rolandus.com/uploads/CMS/Downloads/1977/r_09_pamphlet.pdf

the polar pattern shows its an omnidirectional, though the field is "crippled" probably due to the actual body of the recorded

also, google Edirol R-09, omnidirectional, you'll find a lot of places mentioned its an omni

I still have my doubts about it being omnidirectional... If it is they are using the housing of the edirol to avoid phase cancellation.. If anyone has opened up the edirol and knows if the capsules are omni or not please let me know..

Chris Church

Not opened yet, but I'm tempted...

I'm tempted to put a pair of AT853 in there.  God knows I've got enough of these things!  I almost bought another pair today, but was outbid by someone.

  Richard

I think you would wire your toaster with an 853 if you could! I can picture it now the sound of the toast popping is so crisp and clear. Now if I only had a good preamp to go with it 

Chris

[Vidra]

Anyway, I pulled the trigger for Edirol R-09

I ordered it in a local store, and will probably have it by the end of the month.

It just seems like a better device for recording environments and soundscapes (due to the polar pattern).
It draws less attention because it's smaller, and people will probably mistake it for a ipod or walkman or some such device.
Zoom h4 looks like a weapon on the other hand.

But the biggest reason for this decision is manual control of gain on edirol. The clipping diode and manual corrections of gain during a take.

I've listened to samples of both. The biggest difference I can hear is that edirol sounds a bit more "wet", while the zoom is a bit more focused.