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Author Topic: AKG 414XLII Mid Side Mounting  (Read 4620 times)

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Offline goodcooker

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Re: AKG 414XLII Mid Side Mounting
« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2023, 09:46:09 AM »

That sample of Tippett's Concerto for Double String Orchestra sounds pretty amazing. It has all the things, nice room sound, great players and performance, good mic placement and top of the line Senn mics and a Nagra VI.

Using the mics mounted as he shows one in front of the other would work great for SDCs and the more I think about it for LDCs it's unlikely that the headbasket would interfere with the side mic placed behind it. Never occurred to me to orient M/S mics this way thanks for the pointer.
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Online DSatz

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Re: AKG 414XLII Mid Side Mounting
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2023, 02:35:21 PM »
Why wouldn't the adjacent microphone interfere at high frequencies? How much distance is there between them?
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Offline kindms

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Re: AKG 414XLII Mid Side Mounting
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2023, 06:04:32 PM »
ultimately the challenges with the mounting is what made me jump at the AKG c426 when it came up

I know there are a few c34s etc floating in the community. In fact Ted scored the most amazing ebay deal on one just a month or so back

Im waiting to see if anyone decides to part with one :) there was one on reverb but i thought the price was a little high
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Offline goodcooker

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Re: AKG 414XLII Mid Side Mounting
« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2023, 06:15:26 PM »
Why wouldn't the adjacent microphone interfere at high frequencies? How much distance is there between them?

I'd ask instead why WOULD the adjacent mic interfere. A one inch diaphragm blocking front arriving sound? An LDC headbasket creating diffusion?

I can't see that being a big stumbling block in the approach and the sample I mentioned that Volt provided shows that it works remarkably well at least as evidenced by the recording with Sennheiser MKH30s.

How much distance between them? As much as is required to physically place them next to each other. Not sure where you are going with this. Plenty of end address MidSide microphones have some distance between the capsules. How much distance between the capsules in the end address Neumann stereo shotgun MS mics you have for sale in the YS?
« Last Edit: September 28, 2023, 06:51:45 PM by goodcooker »
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Online DSatz

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Re: AKG 414XLII Mid Side Mounting
« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2023, 07:42:47 PM »
There are two issues here which are somewhat related: interference in the sound field around a microphone due to the presence of another microphone, and physical offset (distance) between the M and S microphones in a pair. Both depend on the relationship between wavelengths and frequencies.

As a rule of thumb, interference in a sound field becomes a serious consideration when the interfering object has dimensions of half a wavelength or greater. An object one inch across, for example, is half a wavelength around 6.6 kHz. That's above the midrange but still something to be cautious about. Of course the distance between the microphone and the interfering object is also a factor, and so is the acoustic opaqueness of the object. The screen around a capsule head is usually fairly transparent acoustically, while the diaphragm and backplate assembly and the body of the microphone amplifier can both be regarded as opaque.

Likewise, M/S stereo works on the principle of adding and subtracting the recorded channels in measured amounts. M+S = 2L, M-S = 2R once any difference in 0ยบ sensitivity has been compensated for. If S and M aren't at the same distance from the source of an arriving sound, it is somewhat akin to introducing comb filters in both channels but the filter's response in the two channels will differ. It's a deviation from the principle of M/S, and the resulting effects will increase at higher and higher frequencies. I gather that people here really like the recordings--I haven't heard them yet myself--but until you've heard a comparison between them and similar recordings made with the microphones at equal distance (there are conflicting statements in this thread as to the placement that was used, whether the mikes were side by side or one behind the other), I don't think any of us can know whether it's making a potentially audible difference or not. Clearly there's some point at which it could, and so the question can't be rejected out of hand. The uncertainty is thoroughly avoidable; I would rather avoid it with more orthodox placement.

As for the Neumann RSM 190/191, that's been discussed here before; I'm attaching two of the photos that I took and posted back then. You're right to imply that there's a potential issue here at the highest audio frequencies due to the lack of coincidence. To state the obvious, however (or what I wish were obvious to more people on this forum), shotgun microphones aren't generally designed for wide-range music pickup, but for dialog and effects, particularly outdoors. If it sounds good on music in a reverberant indoor space, which (given proper placement) the Neumann mikes certainly can, that's a big plus compared to some (cough cough). But if this were a digital microphone and had been marketed for perfectionistically-oriented music recordists rather than film and video sound mixers, a corresponding delay in the "M" channel would certainly be in order for the sake of the highest frequencies, and even that would still be something of a compromise solution.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2023, 03:02:10 PM by DSatz »
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Offline goodcooker

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Re: AKG 414XLII Mid Side Mounting
« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2023, 07:19:04 AM »
Dsatz please take my next comments in the spirit in which they are offered. No offense intended.

Everyone doesn't "stick to the rules" like you do. Shotgun mics can be used to record music. Transformers can, and do, add color to a signal. Large diaphragm condensers with dual diaphragms can be used to make stereo pair recordings. MidSide doesn't have to be 100 percent coincident to be perfectly listenable. The exhaustive list of cautionary tales can be tossed completely out the window.

The lion's share of contributors to this forum use their mics in a hat, or from a less than advantageous position in the venue, or record ear bleedingly loud rock music squeezed through a beer soaked SM57....the common scenarios for recording most common here go farther afield from that small sample representation to extremes that are so radically different from the controlled, acoustically favorable, professionally performed classical music (that I gather is the bulk of your recording experience back ground) that they are almost not the same discipline at all.

Please listen to the samples provided above and let us hear your thoughts. There's a few photos showing the mounting arrangement used in that thread as well. I'm very curious to hear your opinion of the recording and if you hear a difference compared to similar recordings that you yourself or others have made - unamplified string music in a reverberant hall with Midside mics 12 ft high behind the conductor BUT perfectly coincident. You probably have at your disposal a hundred similar scenarios to compare to. I genuinely would love to hear your thoughts after you give the samples a listen.

Or is all this talk of "issues" "violated principles" "legitimate area of uncertainty" just pearl clutching.
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Online DSatz

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Re: AKG 414XLII Mid Side Mounting
« Reply #21 on: September 29, 2023, 09:53:25 AM »
I do respect what you're saying--as someone said, if something sounds good, it's a good recording (implication: regardless of how it was made). Some very mysteriously spooky wonderful old mono classical recordings have been made with microphones that had a fairly high amount of distortion. When you work with a certain set of gear long enough and really listen to what you're doing, you learn how to bring out its potential even though more accurate equipment has greater potential in more situations--but maybe for that one recording, everything (including objective shortcomings of method and/or equipment) "fell into place". Some amounts and kinds of distortion under the right circumstances can sound awfully good.

Hell, the entire LP recording and manufacturing process is so full of distortion-causing steps that have no counterpart in the CD mastering process, CDs made from LP master tapes definitely sound different from the corresponding LPs as people quickly discovered, and having heard some of those LP master tapes directly when I worked at RCA, I know that at least some of them actually sounded quite crappy. But over the decades, the people working at all the different levels of production had learned how to make fantastic-sounding LPs, even if that required making master tapes that sounded distinctly bad. Certain things along the way compensated for certain other things if you knew what you were doing. There's a persistent story that someone accidentally dropped a cheese sandwich into one batch of molten vinyl at a pressing plant and the resulting vinyl was quieter than usual, so cheese was added from then on--I doubt that it's true, but it COULD be true--things do get discovered that way sometimes, and that's the point, I think. If cheese makes vinyl quieter, by all means add cheese. But then maybe see if you can figure out why that works, because even further improvement may be possible. Plus, you might find out that it was actually the mustard that did it (in the parlor, with a candlestick).

Schoeps used to make a kind of miniature stereo mike called the CMXY 4 V, with a pair of CCM 4 V microphones in modified housings side by side with only a very narrow gap between them. Each miniature microphone was mounted on a toothed gear, engaged so that the two of them always rotated in contrary motion. You could set any angle you wanted between them, vary that angle by rotating one mike, and the other one would rotate the opposite way so that the center line between them would stay put. They were of course measured that way and the interference between the two adjacent capsules could easily be seen--but it sounded pretty good nonetheless, in most people's opinion.

I saw this arrangement and at the time, was neither a fan of the MK 4 V nor of coincident stereo recording with cardioids. I asked them to make up a similar microphone with supercardioids instead, although I had never used the MK 41 V before. They kindly made one and lent it to me for testing. I recorded a concert (chamber music at the Isabella Stewart Gardner Museum in Boston as I recall), and was very disappointed in the sound. It was less clear than I had expected, and generally unattractive sounding. Schoeps (again kindly) took the microphone back--they were interested, but somehow not too surprised by my reaction. This experience soured me on the MK 41 V for some years--until I bought another pair and placed them more than a capsule's width apart and facing outward for stereo. Only then did I realize that I actually preferred their sound over the forward-facing MK 41 which I had used probably 1,000 times. Also, a contact at Schoeps revealed to me that another customer before me had requested the same kind of stereo mike with supercardioids, had a similar reaction to its sound quality, and returned it. The mike that I tried may even have been the same one, I don't know.

I came away with the guess that the closer a transducer is to having a pure pressure-gradient response, the more vulnerable it may be to this type of interference. That makes sense to me according to my notions of how things work; I haven't tried to prove or disprove it. If it's right, though, figure-8 microphones would be the most vulnerable, and that's how come this question interested me so much. I do have some direct experience with one of the issues that I'm raising, in other words; my questions aren't based on theory alone, although the theory is quite clear. The interference and lack of coincidence may well matter less than other things such as very astute placement of good microphones in good-sounding halls with good musicians playing in them--but that doesn't mean that they don't matter at all; people would have to experiment and listen to find that out specifically.

The thing is, maybe everyone would prefer the version that goes against the theory. That has to be allowed for, although then I would want to dig deeper. It may be, as with the good-sounding LPs made from crappy-sounding master tapes, that a defect in recording technique is compensating for some equal and opposite defect in the equipment or the acoustical situation. Just because adding cheese to vinyl made the vinyl quieter (if the story is true) doesn't mean that cheese should be added to everything.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2023, 02:58:47 PM by DSatz »
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: AKG 414XLII Mid Side Mounting
« Reply #22 on: September 29, 2023, 01:55:48 PM »
Meta discussion-
One of the key goals of TS is discussing how best to approach recording live music, which will always involve balancing what's possible with what's practical, what's perfect verses what is easy.  There are a lot of ways to frame that, but it all boils down to the same fundamental thing:

For the most part, we are creator, quality control, and final arbiter of the recordings we make, and that balance is going to be somewhat different for everyone here. There is no universally agreed point of balance that is going to apply everywhere.  Ultimately each person needs to determine for themself where the most appropriate balance lies, which everyone does whether they recognize it or not.  I may be stating the obvious, but this is really fundamental to many discussions around TS. 

I find discussion of the details surrounding what each person here or elsewhere has found most important in chasing that balance particularly insightful.  But in order for that to be usefully applied we need to understand both the underlying physical phenomena and the nature of the practical constraints - they are opposite sides of the same coin.  A point of balance requires equal weight both sides of the scale. We can't ignore one side for the other.

It simply won't work to toss all the cautionary tales drawn from underlying working principles out the window, nor can we ignore the real world practical constraints under which we are recording.  The working principles are in some ways more esoteric but easier part to define.  I feel incredibly fortunate to have DSatz contributing and clarifying much of that.  I try to absorb that information and apply it in determining where the thresholds of importance lie for myself.  By contrast, the real world practical constraints differ wildly, yet are more commonly understood.  Goodcooker's primary interest is in this area. The particular constraints with which he is concerned are shared by many at TS if not everyone, and even when the same constraints do apply, different tapers will have a range of ways of addressing them.  I likewise feel fortunate to benefit from Goodcooker's experience and long-time contributions here, emphasizing the importance of practicality and taper-specific issues.

Thanks to you both, and to everyone else for your contributions and tolerance.. of this meta-analysis in particular!
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Offline goodcooker

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Re: AKG 414XLII Mid Side Mounting
« Reply #23 on: September 30, 2023, 12:10:25 PM »
There is no denying that "to break the rules you have to know the rules". Also just because someone doesn't present a formula to represent the acoustical principle of MidSide decoding doesn't mean they don't understand what's going on in that interaction and to suggest it's two different camps or sides of a coin is disingenuous.

Let's take the theme and apply it to something on which I can certainly provide a viewpoint that is as professionally weighty as someone like David's is in professional music recording.

Restaurant food.

There's some overlap in approaches that are very similar when you factor in practicalities like physical space, results desired and budget.

Independent restaurant that is low budget but shows creativity = hobby taper open taping local rock club with stage and soundboard access
   Using the tools available to produce the best possible result regardless of conventional wisdom and adapting to constraints

Chain restaurant utilizing franchise branding = stealth taping in arenas
   this "camp" is pretty specialized but also one of the largest represented in both taping and food - they typically stick to the same off the shelf tools and techniques that historically produce the best results under less than favorable scenarios with scale determined by budget

Brewpubs and breweries = jamband tapers
   trendy, populated, executed well with somewhat specialized tools that are often bespoke, niche or specially designed for the situational outcome
       grain grinder in the loft > custom screw assembly to carry to wort vat > fermentation tank = MK4 > active cables with PFAs > SD Mixpre6ii


Michelin star fine dining = classical recordists
   access to the finest tools and ingredients available with accompanying expense, controlled environment, well trained staff

What all this has led me to is the point that without people who are willing to bend the rules a little we would still be eating the pieces montees of the Edwardian era and boiled lettuces. Same with recording. We would still be listening to mono recordings and using one mic if people hadn't moved forward. If everyone only used the microphones and techniques that had been proven to work in certain situations then we wouldn't have had Led Zeppelin records.

My philosophy in my 30+ year career as a chef is "honor tradition but do not be bound by it" and that ethos will manifest itself in challenging people who post on this recording forum at length with IMO way too much cautionary language about minutiae of practical methods. I made a three course meal last night. If someone came along and felt the need to point out that I only caramelized the turbinado sugar for my plum gastrique for 3 minutes instead of 4 minutes I'd give them the middle finger. One tiny hole can deflate a balloon. Enjoy your balloon.

If someone makes an inquiry about MidSide techniques, another person presents an alternative method with a sample to validate it's effectiveness and another person comes into the discussion with 600 words questioning the validity of the practice based on theoretical principles without listening to or commenting on the provided evidence of proof of practice then - to me - that's not moving the ball forward. That's inhibiting forward motion. New and different techniques don't require validation other than results.

Done is better than perfect.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2023, 06:19:17 PM by goodcooker »
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Offline kuba e

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Re: AKG 414XLII Mid Side Mounting
« Reply #24 on: September 30, 2023, 04:26:13 PM »
David, thank you very much for the great explanation and inspiration. Goodcooker, thank you too for your questions (without questions there are no answers) and I hope this discussion is beneficial for you as well.

 

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