Topic: Zoom H2N Compressor/ Level settings

[Mandoborg]

Hey Folks, I recently returned to taping after a long hiatus. I retired my trusty D6 and picked up a cheap Zoom H2N from a friend just to get my feet wet. I've done 2 small club shows so far and am  enjoying not sweating the tape flips !! Anyway, the recorder has a compressor setting for 'general' and 'concert'. I used the ' concert' setting for both shows. They were pretty loud ( Eric Johnson and Martin Barre ) and I was maybe 30 feet back, ctr. My question is, for both shows I noticed i ran the input up to almost 7 to get my peaks at -6, which to me seemed kind of high. The recordings still sound fine. Is this ok, or should I try the ' general' setting and keep my input level lower ? I know they're only numbers on a little knob, but i'm curious if they'll be any signal> noise ratio issues. I have a big show coming up next weekend at a 3,000 seater and have prime taping seats. I'm farther back and it's probably not going to be as loud as the club shows. Should I run on the ' general' setting or just continue to use the ' concert' setting and continue to run higher on the input ? I really don't want to screw up this really good opportunity !!! 

Thanks in advance for any advice !
Jim

[goodcooker]

Peaks hitting -6 is very much the sweet spot. Leaves a little room for the unexpected.

Couldn't tell you about the onboard compression - I wouldn't use it but that's just me. If it has a concert setting - and you are recording a concert - sounds like the way to go.

Try not to crank the gain all the way up to max even if you think your levels are a little low. Those Zoom recorders (and a lot of other similar little recorders) get noisy at max gain. Keep it lower and increase your gain later in post if it's not loud enough.

[Mandoborg]

Thank You Goodcooker !!
I guess the jist of my long winded question was to maintain -6 peaks, is it better to run no compression ( or 'general' is its named on the Zoom ) and keep my input low, say 3- 4 on the knob. Or is it better to run on the 'concert' setting and crank that input up to 7-8 which is where I've run it the last 2 shows. I'm always thinking the higher i have to turn that input knob up, the more chances of introducing noise. What sucks about this Zoom is you can't change it on the fly like i could with the D6. If i start recording with little or no compression, and i'm brickwalling  even with the lowest input, I have to stop recording and go into the menu, find the compressor, and pick one. NOT a desirable position to be in....

[Gutbucket]

In general most tapers prefer to record without compression or limiting as long as that allows for a good recording without overload.  Compression can always be applied later when beneficial, but it generally can't be undone once already applied. Depending on the situation, some tastefully applied compression can often benefit the end result, but it ideally should be set carefully by ear which you can only do afterward.

That said, if you need to engage compression or limiting on the recorder in order to avoid overload or outright clipping, by all means do so.

Personally I never record concerts with compression on the recorder.  I do sometimes use limiting to avoid overload though.  The advanced limiter on the Zoom F-series recorders is very transparent so I don't feel guilty about using it.  Not sure about the H2N though.  I'd suggest not using its compression or limiting while recording unless you really need to.  If you will be further back where it is less loud for the upcoming concert you should have less need for it and can probably safely run without it.  Give it a go that way and see what you think.

We can advise you, but in the end the best way to figure all this out is to try it both ways, listen and compare.  Even if you don't need to use it to avoid overload, I could see using compression on the recorder if you determine that it really provides the sound you are after, since doing it that way would eliminate the need to apply it later.  And doing all the "later stuff" tends to be more of a drag for most folks compared to recording.

[Paul]

I've used the H2n for quite a few shows. I typically do M/S raw at 96/24 & I turn the gain to "0" or off...

I use no compression/limiting. I think i have the bass rolloff on, since I typically hand hold it & it helps keep from getting an overly boomy/muddy bass...

[Paul]

here's a sample using that method, I raised the levels & did compression, etc., so it's not a raw recording, but gives an idea of what can be recorded using the M/S & pre-amp volume off...

recorded at the LA Coliseum. in front of the soundboard, to the right.

https://mega.nz/file/q6pFkIQC#xvzWdJYDq4hAlS0iTM_LpWEtkKlYSql-63i4xOONTps

[Mandoborg]

Thank you all so much for such informative replies !!! I actually use my trusty old Sonic Studios mics and not the built ins. I think i'm going to record first set with the ' general' limiter active and turn it off for the second just to compare. I apologize as well for using ' compressor' instead of ' limiter' ..... If my guitar playing carries over to this, the ' limiter' will just keep the peaks from getting saturated whereas the  compressor does that but will also boost the quieter parts which i don't want to do....

THANK YOU again for all the great suggestions and advice !!!  So Appreciated .... A lot has changed since I walked away from taping in 1990 !!!   

[Gutbucket]

I apologize as well for using ' compressor' instead of ' limiter' ..... If my guitar playing carries over to this, the ' limiter' will just keep the peaks from getting saturated whereas the  compressor does that but will also boost the quieter parts which i don't want to do....

No worries, both are essentially the same process but with different settings.  Yes, a limiter is targeted at the peaks.  Using one while recording is often something of a crutch to avoid overload.  It has uses afterward, mostly in knocking down a few stray overly strong peaks considerably higher than everything else, thus allowing you to increase overall level more.

I find the most useful way to use compression for live recordings (applied afterward) is to employ techniques that boost the quiet parts while leaving the loud parts and peaks untouched. That often makes live recordings more listenable in allowing you to hear the low level details without squashing the natural sounding transients and energy, and avoids having to constantly reach for the volume knob.

[nulldogmas]

I find the most useful way to use compression for live recordings (applied afterward) is to employ techniques that boost the quiet parts while leaving the loud parts and peaks untouched. That often makes live recordings more listenable in allowing you to hear the low level details without squashing the natural sounding transients and energy, and avoids having to constantly reach for the volume knob.

I kind of feel the opposite, at least in most situations I find myself in: If I have a recording where almost all of the waveform is below -4 dB, say, and then there are 10 or 15 peaks that exceed that, I've found that compressing the crap out of those enables me to raise the gain on the whole recording and is absolutely unnoticeable, because your ears can't tell the difference between a -4 dB snare hit and a -1 dB snare hit.

Boosting the quiet parts while leaving the loud parts can be good for music with a ton of dynamic range with super-loud songs followed by super-quiet songs (I'm looking at you, Yo La Tengo), since we tend not to listen to loud music at home at ear-splitting volumes that allow the quiet bits to still be audible. But while I've played around with parallel compression for that, it's touchier, so I do it a lot less frequently than just knocking down a few stray peaks.

[Gutbucket]

Sounds more akin to limiting, but the difference between limiting and top-down compression is a matter of degree.  I find the best approach is usually a little of both.  Tame the errant peaks in order to get RMS level up, then bring the low level stuff up with parallel comp so that the details are audible at a rational volume setting.  Determining how much of both is the right amount and tweaking the settings of both is the art.  Must sound natural above all else, but also can't bring up the bottom as much as I might like if the audience was more interested in distractedly talking about their car payment and what they had for lunch than the performance.

The back and forth between super loud and quiet songs complicates things further.  I ideally deal with that using a third separate instance of dynamic manipulation. Something like a program leveling compressor could probably be set to do that, but I usually just automate mixer gain and manually bump up the overly quiet songs up to where they need to be, leaving the settings of the limiting and parallel comp the same the whole way through.  Doing that isn't too bad as those manually applied level changes only happen for the quiet songs that need it, but I realize that's more work than a lot of folks will want to do.

I'd like to know more about the specifics of how radio stations do this for radio broadcast.  They setup automated dynamics controls that do all three of those things automatically for a variety of musical broadcast content, which makes for a reasonable model of what we might be able to setup to do something similar, requiring less tweaking each time.  For our use the actual settings would be different and amount of overall compression would be less than what is optimal for radio though.

[goodcooker]

Thank you all so much for such informative replies !!! I actually use my trusty old Sonic Studios mics and not the built ins. I think i'm going to record first set with the ' general' limiter active and turn it off for the second just to compare. I apologize as well for using ' compressor' instead of ' limiter' ..... If my guitar playing carries over to this, the ' limiter' will just keep the peaks from getting saturated whereas the  compressor does that but will also boost the quieter parts which i don't want to do....

THANK YOU again for all the great suggestions and advice !!!  So Appreciated .... A lot has changed since I walked away from taping in 1990 !!!

There's a lot to digest in the replies here and not all of it applies to your original question. Lots of folks will NOT use onboard limiting except as a safety factor when they are concerned about going "over". Some use it all the time for the safety factor. The obvious and easiest suggestion is to run your levels conservatively so that your peaks hit with some room left for safety. Peaks at-6 dB is reasonable. I try to land peaks between -12dB and -6 dB in most cases. This will make for the most "natural" sound. If the limiter is very transparent - which I don't know since I've never actually used that device - using it probably won't hurt you if it engages to prevent overages. Only way to find out is to try it. If the limiter only has preset settings like general and concert I don't know that I'd use it without being able to set it to operate like I would want. That's why I always record without limiting and save that step for when I'm editing later and can control it carefully.

TL;DR - run your gain conservatively without limiting and address your shortcomings in post editing. Don't run it so low that you have to boost levels way up and add noise but not so low that you have to be concerned about clipping. Try it with the limiter on and compare. Then you have your answer to your specific use case.

It may be a little challenging to shift some of your process away from the old school analog level setting way of thinking. In general your sweet spot range is going to be a little lower than it was when you were recording on tapes. It's not as important to get levels as close to zero in the digital age.

[Gutbucket]

^ sums it up nicely

[fotoralf.be]

Are you sure that the limiter (or the compressor) of the H2N works in the analog part ahead of the A/D converter? In the original H2 and the various incarnations of the H4(N) it is a digital 'effect' applied after the ADC.

Do a simple test: put the recorder in front of a speaker preferably reproducing some sine signal and drive the input level into overdrive. Make a recording. Now, switch on the limiter. The level meter will drop a few dB. Make another recording. Play both recordungs back and have a look if the flat-topping disappeared when the limiter was engaged. I bet it doesn't.

Ralf