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Gear / Technical Help => Recording Gear => Topic started by: dklein on September 28, 2003, 02:29:04 AM
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Could this be the end of the controversy? Put your critical hats on and tell me what you think ;D
http://members.rogers.com/traderdave/audio/
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excellent...
just what i wanted to hear. i think you have provided the community with some great info here
one of many +T's to follow in sure
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I was 99% sure from the earlier tests but I never put the link up because I knew that if it wasn't airtight, it would get trashed.
The key was getting a USB setup that worked reliably so I had something to check against.
Here's the earlier tests if you want to check them out
http://ca.geocities.com/dkleined@rogers.com/audio/bit/BitAccuracy.htm
I think it was obvious but I bounced it off Jamie and...well...I wanted another go at it. I think this should satisfy any UA-5 users. Other devices still need testing (but that's all I got). At least we know the JB3 has the capability to record perfectly.
david
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nice work on the tests dklein, +T
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T+ nice work!
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There was never any doubt from team Bama.
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While I'd like to think it's bit-perfect, I don't think that this is nearly a rigorous enough test to prove it's bit pefect at all...
Definately appreciate the efforts, but a more in depth/time consuming test would be needed to convince me as I have heard audible artifacts left by my own JB3 from time to time...
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I don't think that this is nearly a rigorous enough test to prove it's bit pefect at all...
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I have heard audible artifacts left by my own JB3 from time to time...
Fair enough. This type of feedback is sort of what I was after. On the testing - I'm game - what do you think is required to test further?
And what is your chain? Is it UA-5 > JB3? Which firmware? I think we can both agree that I have tested one specific configuration and others configs may differ - let's try and figure out what the important differences are!
I'm certainly pleased with the results for my equipment, but am happy to carry on some more for the benefit of our little community.
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Well just a longer test phase would be great.. As I read it you did 10 test's overall right? I recall Jamie doing hundreds of hours of testing in order to finally reveal there were issues because just a few tests didn't show them.
Also testing on a fragmented drive (as you had mentioned) might be warrented.
You make no mention of how your powering your JB3 which could be worthy of testing/mentioning. Was it plugged into AC power during all your tests? Have you tried removing it from AC during recording allowing the battery to kick in, and vice versa? How about doing it with a battery only half charged? Etc.. etc..
I'm just thinking that really giving it more of a "stress test" overall would help solidify your theory. Trying to imagine what all a taper might do.. Do Firewire transferred recordings differ from one transferred via USB? What software are you using to transfer from the JB3? Creative PlayCenter? If so what version? Have you tried different versions? Have you tried Notmad Explorer (looks really kickass, don't have it myself)? What version of the drivers are are you using and on what operating systems as I can imagine different OS, different drivers, different version of PlayCenter might result in different issues/problems perhaps?
Just some thoughts popping into my head. I know I have had problems with transfers which were either linked to USB (now using firewire) or (believe it or not) having the unit plugged in while transferring instead of using the battery (which seems to work better for some people)...
I'd gladly lend a hand with testing.
My chain is like 'dis:
UA-5 (optical) > JB3 (1.20.07) > Firewire > PC
I can also do JB3 > USB > PC but I almost never get a larger file transferred before getting an error "Player Not Connected - " at a random interval during transfer.
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Also have you tried transferring the same file over and over and over and comparing if each time it compares the exact same? Just another thought...
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Good calls, npinsboro. :D
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One by one...
Well just a longer test phase would be great.. As I read it you did 10 test's overall right? I recall Jamie doing hundreds of hours of testing in order to finally reveal there were issues because just a few tests didn't show them.
I've discussed with Jamie - he felt 10 x 3 hour tests was adequate. I can certainly rack up a few more hours but perhaps it would be more valuable if someone with a different firmware version ran a few tests.
Also testing on a fragmented drive (as you had mentioned) might be warrented.
One thing I want to stay clear of is trying to make it fail for no good reason. You can do something like this with a laptop too (fragment the hell out of the drive or load a crappy config and tons of background programs until it fails) - but why bother? There are simple, good practices take place even on the high end professional equipment and DAWs. Keep free space on your drive (though I did run it down to a few gigs left) and periodically defrag i.e. run the built in disk cleanup routine every once in a while.
You make no mention of how your powering your JB3 which could be worthy of testing/mentioning. Was it plugged into AC power during all your tests? Have you tried removing it from AC during recording allowing the battery to kick in, and vice versa? How about doing it with a battery only half charged? Etc.. etc..
It was AC powered for the tests. From some previous power experiments, it does switch back and forth without a glitch. I can verify the switching back and forth again for bit accuracy and let you know.
As far as a half charged battery goes, the highest current draw occurs on the bootup (when you see the EAX screen and the drive spins up). Over 1 amp as I recall. It may be possible to continue a recording in progress on a battery that doesn't have enough juice to start the JB3 if you pull a switch after startup (kinda desparate though!). The good news is when an internal battery dies, the player shuts down nicely and saves your file. The bad news is that same safety isn't built into the external power source - so if you pull the AC without the internal battery, or run external power (and it dies) in it, you just lose the whole file (whether you have the internal battery or not).
I've got a whole pile of stuff on power / external power that I can post as well (had a lot of fun playing with this machine ya know!)
I'm just thinking that really giving it more of a "stress test" overall would help solidify your theory. Trying to imagine what all a taper might do.. Do Firewire transferred recordings differ from one transferred via USB? What software are you using to transfer from the JB3? Creative PlayCenter? If so what version? Have you tried different versions? Have you tried Notmad Explorer (looks really kickass, don't have it myself)? What version of the drivers are are you using and on what operating systems as I can imagine different OS, different drivers, different version of PlayCenter might result in different issues/problems perhaps?
All of the above has to do with the transfer of a data file - it works or doesn't work. There is no opportunity to create a file with missing samples as it won't pass the basic error correction required to move the file. We're no longer in the audio realm on this one. FWIW, I use the Creative Play Center 3.02.52, Win2k, driver 1.21.01a (which lists as 1.20.4.51 in device manager)- but all that stuff does is allow me to transfer a data file from one device to another.
Just some thoughts popping into my head. I know I have had problems with transfers which were either linked to USB (now using firewire) or (believe it or not) having the unit plugged in while transferring instead of using the battery (which seems to work better for some people)...
I can also do JB3 > USB > PC but I almost never get a larger file transferred before getting an error "Player Not Connected - " at a random interval during transfer.
I've also had occasional transfer issues that always seem to be fixed by disconnecting the firewire cable, going into record mode, recording a few seconds of anything (like silence thru the line in or mic in), stopping the player and trying again. Likely some file system issue in the JB3.
I'd gladly lend a hand with testing.
My chain is like 'dis:
UA-5 (optical) > JB3 (1.20.07) > Firewire > PC
Looks like the main difference is the firmware - and that would definitely be worth a test. As you may know, I can't rollback to an earlier version with 1.32.02 so go for it.
The catch is you need a reliable USB transfer for comparison. That's what shut me down the first time around - I pretty much knew the JB3 was behaving but my control sample (the USB copy) was totally flaky. Then I got a laptop and did dual boot with a totally stripped config for recording and all is good.
So try a few runs and see if you get the same results or not - each time I had anomalies, I could zoom in on the USB copy and see that it was the bad one, but it's still better to have absolute proof. You can look at the link to my original tests on that page to see the kinds of glitches and stuff I was getting.
Good luck!
david
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+t dklein....that's a lotta work!
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+t dklein....that's a lotta work!
you can say that again. thanks!
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My empirical evidence with switching back and forth b/w AC and internals while recording is that it will crash the system, making it reboot at best or at worst freezing the thing and requiring a total reset. This has happened twice to me and I don't want to chance it anymore.
Ask Jeff about it, he lost AC power last night during Victor Wooten and it seemed to keep on truckin'.
As always, YMMV
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My empirical evidence with switching back and forth b/w AC and internals while recording is that it will crash the system, making it reboot at best or at worst freezing the thing and requiring a total reset. This has happened twice to me and I don't want to chance it anymore.
Ask Jeff about it, he lost AC power last night during Victor Wooten and it seemed to keep on truckin'.
As always, YMMV
True the JB3 pulled the whole show perfect. even when the plug was pulled.
Due to my error the dat's were incomplete.
I was glad to see how quick you can stop the JB3 save the recording & start recording again. Much quicker than a tape flip.
IMO For the price everyone should have a JB3. even if it's just backup.
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So I did some tests pulling power in and out and everything was fine. Maybe older firmware doesn't handle it as well? I'm on 1.32.02
Maybe I'll start up a new thread on external power (not AC) - ran that successfully last night.
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I was glad to see how quick you can stop the JB3 save the recording & start recording again. Much quicker than a tape flip.
Even faster than stopping and starting - just press the track forward button while recording. That saves the existing and starts the new one in one quick step (takes about 8 seconds).
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Thanks for the info!!!
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I was glad to see how quick you can stop the JB3 save the recording & start recording again. Much quicker than a tape flip.
Even faster than stopping and starting - just press the track forward button while recording. That saves the existing and starts the new one in one quick step (takes about 8 seconds).
that needs to go in the archiveal section under JB3 info! +t
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Maybe I'll start up a new thread on external power (not AC) - ran that successfully last night.
Please do! I'd love to hear what you've come up with concerning this.....
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All this talk of people having trouble during the transfer to PC is puzzling. Unless ofcourse you are still using Playcenter to transfer instead of Notmad.
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I've used the playcenter so far without any hitches... The only probs I had in any recordings we my own fault (level too high/low on UA5), or problems with SBD (loose connection first time taping).
I have found that my transferred waves have a header issue with CDWave, but it hasn't caused any problems per se... I've always trimmed the front and back of my WAVs to give it nice clean edges anyways.
Sorry to hear folks have issues with their JB3s, mine been perfect so far (knock on wood!)
Terry
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I've ran my JB3 around 10 times & have yet to transfer anything.
I use it for backup & to listen in the car. Ride home ect. I do need to transfer Victor Wooten. I'm going to give it a shot.
What is this Notmad?
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i've been taping with my nomad since april and i've taped lots and lots of shows, probably upwards of 30-40 and I've never had a problem transferring shows or with the new firmware. The only thing I've ever noticed is that when the drive is almost full or if i do a lot of deleting and filling with mp3s the drive gets messy and my shows get glitchy. I'd suggest doing the scan disc and formatting the drive or whatever every couple of months or so depending on the amound of shows you tape with it.
ed