Topic: Time to go to 24 bit

[Jonny P]

I know I am long overdue to convert to hard disc/24 bit  recording. The only reason I still love DAT is (1) It gives me a stand alone storage medium and (2) I can track the tunes right at a show.

Questions I have:

I recently bought the mini Edirol, but what are some more high end options. Sound Devices? Tascam? Sony?
Do they run on batteries?
Are they easy to convert to CD?
How much data can you store on a flash card??
Can I manually track songs on the unit at a show?
Can I input tracks after the show?
How much do the flash cards cost?
What software do I need to download the recordings to digital storage, i.e., back up drive?

I need your collective help, brethren and sistren if you want Jonny P to convert to 24 bit!

[Jonny P]

Another question:
I run an Oade M248. Do I need A/D conversion like I do with the D8?

[earmonger]

I have the Sony PCM-M10 which has 4GB of internal storage and accepts a microSD card (up to 32GB, though 16GB and below are easier to find). It's great.

For your questions:

Do they run on batteries? 2 AA batteries, 40+ hours.


Are they easy to convert to CD? All digital recordings are easy to convert to CD. Windows Media Player burns CDs; so does standalone software like Nero. 

How much data can you store on a flash card?? Up to 32GB.

Can I manually track songs on the unit at a show?  Yes. There's a track button on the unit and on the remote.

Can I input tracks after the show? Yes, same buttons.

How much do the flash cards cost? Check Amazon or newegg.com

What software do I need to download the recordings to digital storage, i.e., back up drive? None. The files are just .wav or .mp3 files. You can drag and drop them in Windows, Mac, etc.

[jlykos]

If you have a 248 and plan to use it, then the only difference between the various recorders will be their A/D.  The 702 / 722 has an outstanding A/D, but I could not justify the $1500 price differential between that and the Sony PCM-D50 for an A/D stage, especially since the D50 A/D sounds excellent.  The 248, IMHO, is a superior preamp to that in the Sound Devices units, but you may want to get a hold of some recordings and decide for yourself.

[jsfrank]

Am I the only rebel who records in 16/44.1? I've been doing that with my MT2496 for 4 1/2 years and plan on continuing to do that with my Olympus RS-11.

[jbell]

I agree on the Sony PCM D50!  It's AD sounds great.  I got one to run with my SD MP-2 and the home testing I have done sounds AWESOME!  I haven't used a 702/722 so I can't speak to that topic. 

If you have a 248 and plan to use it, then the only difference between the various recorders will be their A/D.  The 702 / 722 has an outstanding A/D, but I could not justify the $1500 price differential between that and the Sony PCM-D50 for an A/D stage, especially since the D50 A/D sounds excellent.  The 248, IMHO, is a superior preamp to that in the Sound Devices units, but you may want to get a hold of some recordings and decide for yourself.

[dallman]

Am I the only rebel who records in 16/44.1? I've been doing that with my MT2496 for 4 1/2 years and plan on continuing to do that with my Olympus RS-11.

I was at a festival once some years back and left my MT2496 with a friend to go record with another rig at another stage. He switched my settings to 24/48. Later that night before I realized what he had done, I was marveling at the best recording I had seemingly ever made. Then I noticed the switch to 24/48 which he confirmed. The difference was really noticable. I hear a lot of opinions on why not to go 24/48 (or higher), but the listening test is probably the best one of all. In this case it was a much better sounding recording, so there was no turning back. It really requires no effort to convert back either if you have a PC, so why not try it?

[Todd R]

Hey Jon, good to hang with you at Hershey.  Guess all them new fangled recorders got you thinking, eh? 

I don't mess with track marking at the show or with the recorder, and just do it with s/w when processing on the computer.  But I think most recorders give you the option of adding track marks (during recording or afterwards), so that would be covered if you want to keep the same process you have. 

You can get memory cards up to 32GB, and even 64GB are coming out.  16GB cards, which you can get for $35 shipped, can hold about 16 hours of 2ch recording at 24/44.1k rates, which should be more than plenty.

I owned both the Sound Devices 722 and the 702 -- fantastic, well engineered, great sounding recorders.  I've ditched mine a few years back.  I had an Edirol R44, which is a 4ch recorder more recently -- worth considering, even if you wouldn't be doing too much 4ch recording.  Also there is the Tascam HD-P2 and the Marantz PMD-661, among a slew of other ones.

I've had the Sony D50 for a few years now.  A very nicely built recorder and well up to the task.  As Jamie/jlykos notes, it has a very good sounding A/D stage.  In general, A/D stages of the new recorders are much, much improved over the old D8 days, so the 248 directly into the recorder without an A/D can sound very good.  As well as the Sony D50, you might want to consider the Sony M10 as well, esp if it sounds as good as the D50.  Battery life on both the D50 and esp the M10 is amazing.

[Chris K]

Does the Sony D50 have Super Bit Mapping (SBM) built in? I think I remember reading that a while back. I don't think the M10 has the SBM.

Maybe that's why people say the D50 sound so good? SBM was a decent (to my ears) sounding A/D conversion even in 16bit when I ran an sbm1>d8/Jb3.

[Shadow_7]

The difference in dynamic range between 16 bit and 24 bit is pretty huge.  If you tend to set your levels conservatively, 24 bit is a life saver.  If you've always wanted to play it safer it gives you the option.  You may not notice any difference if all of your soundcards only do 16 bit reproduction modes.  But it's a big difference.  Especially if you want/need to do some major editing like EQ, sync, mega gain to get that girls number she was telling to that other guy near your mics, and other edits.

As far as storage.  As long as you get something recent, hardly an issue IMO.  Unless you're doing some sort of 3 day festival and don't want to lug a laptop with you on that trip.  16GB SDHC for $40-ish retail ($30-ish online).  At CD quality, the rough equivalent of 23 CDs.  If you recorded in 32 bit, i.e. double, that's still over 10 CDs / 10 hours.  My DSD field recorder does about 6GB an hour at it's HIGHEST setting.  Most recorders offer you 16 bit or even mp3 options if space is an issue, so not really an issue IMO.  Unless you never move stuff off of your card(s) and always record at the highest levels.  It really depends on how much work you want to do in post for all that other stuff.  Not that it's really that much work to manipulate audio these days (24/96 and lower).  HD video on the other hand...

[Belexes]

I've had the Sony D50 for a few years now.  A very nicely built recorder and well up to the task.  As Jamie/jlykos notes, it has a very good sounding A/D stage.  In general, A/D stages of the new recorders are much, much improved over the old D8 days, so the 248 directly into the recorder without an A/D can sound very good.  As well as the Sony D50, you might want to consider the Sony M10 as well, esp if it sounds as good as the D50.  Battery life on both the D50 and esp the M10 is amazing.

I prefer the A/D of the D50 over my M10 since I have had both to compare.  The D50 is bigger to lug around though for low-pro recording and that is when the M10 comes in handy.  I'd recommend the D50 to those that only do open recording.

[jlykos]

Does the Sony D50 have Super Bit Mapping (SBM) built in? I think I remember reading that a while back. I don't think the M10 has the SBM.

Maybe that's why people say the D50 sound so good? SBM was a decent (to my ears) sounding A/D conversion even in 16bit when I ran an sbm1>d8/Jb3.

You can switch the SBM on or off on the D50.  I always leave it off.

[Jonny P]

How would I connect the M248 into a Sony PCM - D50? What kind of inputs does the D50 have in general?
What are the names of the 32GB memory cards so I can order one online?

Thanks to all!

[Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)]

Welcome to the 21st Century Johnny! 

My favorite thing about 24 bits. Setting your levels at -6db, and not touching the recorder for the rest of the night. Also handy for  operations where checking your levels = increasing your chances of getting caught.

I hear a lot of good things about the Sony's.

I'm probably going to upgrade to the M-10 from my Tascam DR-07, mostly due to the size/shape. Fits in your pocket a little better, and I hear it sounds better as a bonus.

[stevetoney]

Am I the only rebel who records in 16/44.1? I've been doing that with my MT2496 for 4 1/2 years and plan on continuing to do that with my Olympus RS-11.

FWIW, I've heard of plenty of people that still run in 16/44.1 because they don't have 24bit available to them, but you might be the first that I've heard in awhile that has 24bit available and doesn't use it.  Obviously, opinions vary, but IMHO when affordable 24bit technology came along, it was perhaps the most significant technology advancement to hit the taping world since DAT.  On my playback system, I don't hear hardly any difference between 16 and 24bit sources, so all things being equal, I'd probably also go with 16bit to save storage space.  The difference to me is headroom and having far better resolution in the sound to work with in post. 

OTOH, if one never needs the headroom, never does any tweeking in post, and doesn't have a high end playback system to hear any differences, perhaps 24bit offers nothing special.