Author Topic: 722 Errors???? (Read 5286 times)

mhibbs · « **on:** May 03, 2006, 12:03:00 AM »

Take a look at the attached images. What does this look like to you guys? It sure doesn't look like traditional clipping to me. I'm running firmwire 1.57 which after looking at their website is way more out of date then I thought. For some reason I seem to have not received "new firmware" emails past 1.57. Both images are of the same section...I've got several more errors similar to this at different sections of the files.

fozzy · « **Reply #1 on:** May 03, 2006, 12:13:30 AM »

looks like overloading and not brickwalling, shouldn't be either w/ your setup, bad cable maybe? how are the batteries on the 148/248?

does the symptom reverse itself if you flip flip the channels into the 722?

live2496 · « **Reply #2 on:** May 03, 2006, 12:16:38 AM »

Looks like the converter was overloaded.

mhibbs · « **Reply #3 on:** May 03, 2006, 12:19:22 AM »

Quote from: fozzy on May 03, 2006, 12:13:30 AM

looks like overloading and not brickwalling, shouldn't be either w/ your setup, bad cable maybe? how are the batteries on the 148/248?

does the symptom reverse itself if you flip flip the channels into the 722?

Well, it's clearly doing it on both channels so I don't think flipping the channels is going to solve anything. Batteries in the 148 (what I ran) are very new...replaced last year....all 8 of them. You're right though...no way to overload a 148 and it was loud as hell so the 722 wasn"t too wound up either. The levels also aren't extremely hot (hot sure, but it's more of an instant POP when you hear it)...not a typical clipping sound. Just got the new firmware...will see if it keeps up. May set it up in front of my stereo, run it super hot, wiggle shit, and see if I can dupe it.

mhibbs · « **Reply #4 on:** May 03, 2006, 12:22:36 AM »

Quote from: live2496 on May 03, 2006, 12:16:38 AM

Looks like the converter was overloaded.

Look at this...

1.67

* fixed - bad overload behavior from 1.60 fixed

Wonder if that bad overload behavior was really introduced in 1.6 or if they introduced it as early as 1.57. Like I said though, the line in gain of the 722 was not anywhere near as high as I've run it in the past since the show was so loud.

Craig T · « **Reply #5 on:** May 03, 2006, 12:50:13 AM »

update your firmware. this will go away.
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=53636.15

Quote from: mhibbs on May 03, 2006, 12:22:36 AM

Look at this...

1.67

* fixed - bad overload behavior from 1.60 fixed

Wonder if that bad overload behavior was really introduced in 1.6 or if they introduced it as early as 1.57. Like I said though, the line in gain of the 722 was not anywhere near as high as I've run it in the past since the show was so loud.

mhibbs · « **Reply #6 on:** May 03, 2006, 01:12:07 AM »

Much thanks... +T. Oddly enough, I'm not running digital in as you appeared to be w/ the V3, but the appearence of the waveforms is certainly very very similar.

Mitch

already made the firmware update

scb · « **Reply #7 on:** May 03, 2006, 09:16:55 AM »

i'm still on version 1.4x

bkirby · « **Reply #8 on:** May 03, 2006, 09:28:14 AM »

Quote from: m0k3 on May 03, 2006, 09:22:33 AM

1.46 is where I'm at

I'm still at 1.46 and have yet to have a problem!!!

fozzy · « **Reply #9 on:** May 03, 2006, 10:06:40 AM »

yea I'm at 1.46 too, no reason to upgrade for me,

terrapinj · « **Reply #10 on:** May 03, 2006, 01:24:01 PM »

do they still offer the older versions of the firmware for download? mine will be arriving soon and will likely have new firmware - i've been following a lot of these threads about firmware issues and would like to revert back if possible for the time being.

RebelRebel · « **Reply #11 on:** May 03, 2006, 01:29:05 PM »

Quote from: m0k3 on May 03, 2006, 09:22:33 AM

1.46 is where I'm at

i've never received an update email, nor, given any sort of forum information by sd.

you have to call and verify with them now, no email affirmations are given...

cleantone · « **Reply #12 on:** May 03, 2006, 01:30:51 PM »

I think that is called "foldback". It happens when a wavform is sort of over extended. Something was being run really hot here. You can see in mid compression a sample or two jumped completly from positive to negative. The result make a wicked nasty pop from the sudden jump mid compression. You can pencil out those foldback errors. I'm not sure of course if it is a firmware issue or not but from what I can "see" your waveforms are brickwalled. This makes me assume you were running really hot levels. Does this only occur when the waveform is being brickwalled or are there any on quieter passages? If you run your levels lower, underpeak do they still occur?

mmedley. · « **Reply #13 on:** May 03, 2006, 02:38:15 PM »

Quote from: terrapinj on May 03, 2006, 01:24:01 PM

do they still offer the older versions of the firmware for download? mine will be arriving soon and will likely have new firmware - i've been following a lot of these threads about firmware issues and would like to revert back if possible for the time being.

Yeah, you can download older versions, but the newest version 1.74 is what I am using and not had a single issue with it. You kinda have to be crafty to find the older versions, but this linky should work...

http://www.sounddevices.com/download/7_firmware/722_1.69.zip

PS..there is no version 1.69 firmware (if you look at that link above) which brings up other "helpful links"....kinda stumbled across this...

terrapinj · « **Reply #14 on:** May 03, 2006, 03:08:45 PM »

thank you sir!

Quote from: martin on May 03, 2006, 02:38:15 PM

Quote from: terrapinj on May 03, 2006, 01:24:01 PM
do they still offer the older versions of the firmware for download? mine will be arriving soon and will likely have new firmware - i've been following a lot of these threads about firmware issues and would like to revert back if possible for the time being.

Yeah, you can download older versions, but the newest version 1.74 is what I am using and not had a single issue with it. You kinda have to be crafty to find the older versions, but this linky should work...

http://www.sounddevices.com/download/7_firmware/722_1.69.zip

PS..there is no version 1.69 firmware (if you look at that link above) which brings up other "helpful links"....kinda stumbled across this...

mhibbs · « **Reply #15 on:** May 03, 2006, 08:02:27 PM »

Quote from: cleantone on May 03, 2006, 01:30:51 PM

I think that is called "foldback". It happens when a wavform is sort of over extended. Something was being run really hot here. You can see in mid compression a sample or two jumped completly from positive to negative. The result make a wicked nasty pop from the sudden jump mid compression. You can pencil out those foldback errors. I'm not sure of course if it is a firmware issue or not but from what I can "see" your waveforms are brickwalled. This makes me assume you were running really hot levels. Does this only occur when the waveform is being brickwalled or are there any on quieter passages? If you run your levels lower, underpeak do they still occur?

No, the levels were definitely too hot...I don't see any of this behavior in situations where it wasn't clipping. It's just unusually nasty behavior. Those examples I sent before were particularly bad, but look at this one.... It's clipping when it occurs, but some are very short and it's still inverting the waveform rather than just squaring it off. Fun w/ the pencill time for me.

it-goes-to-eleven · « **Reply #16 on:** May 03, 2006, 08:13:52 PM »

Yep. Without a doubt, that is the bug and not any sort of brickwalling. I fixed mine with the pencil.

You can otherwise drive the 722 very hard without distortion. It just clips like you'd expect. Another exception is when using the bass rolloff filter. Clipping with the BRO on can cause distortion. I think Justin said that has been improved in recent releases but I haven't tried it lately.

mmedley. · « **Reply #17 on:** May 03, 2006, 10:59:47 PM »

It has definitly been fixed in newer firmware. The way clipping was handled was whack..weird pops and whatnot (obviously). Happened to me at the Truckers on firmware v1.68 and has now been resolved. I can attest. My clips didn't look that bad though as I run a bit conservative going mics > 722 (especially since it was the Truckers

)

cleantone · « **Reply #18 on:** May 04, 2006, 10:12:50 AM »

Quote

No, the levels were definitely too hot...I don't see any of this behavior in situations where it wasn't clipping. It's just unusually nasty behavior. Those examples I sent before were particularly bad, but look at this one.... It's clipping when it occurs, but some are very short and it's still inverting the waveform rather than just squaring it off. Fun w/ the pencill time for me.

Quote

Yep. Without a doubt, that is the bug and not any sort of brickwalling. I fixed mine with the pencil.

IMO when your clipping at all your running too hot. I guess some gear you can get away with it without this foldback. I guess I'm wondering if this ONLY happens when your brickwalling? If so I would guess that you would want to run a little quieter and avoid the foldback. If there is a firmware option that will allow you to brickwall a bit without foldback AND that is what you want to do, then you should try that.

it-goes-to-eleven · « **Reply #19 on:** May 04, 2006, 10:43:42 AM »

Quote from: cleantone on May 04, 2006, 10:12:50 AM

IMO when your clipping at all your running too hot.

I call BS on your gross generalization. I am also surprised that you repeatedly try and characterize a known equipment problem as being 'operator error'.

BTW, have you actually run a 722/744 with the firmware that has this problem?

The *BUG* occurs with the slightest clip. Slight clips are normally inaudible. I record a lot of acoustic music where a performer (or crowd) at any point can blow the levels out by doing something extreme. Normally those clips are a not a major concern. But when they result in distortion it ruins the recording.

When you are recording a show where you need 50 dB of gain for the music, you're going to clip when the guy next to you starts clapping 10" from your mics (true even at much lower levels). Even the limiter will not prevent the clips (though I almost never run it). The A/D should truncate the waveform peak without distortion. Just like the V3 or countless other pieces of gear. Just like the 1.46 firmware did and the fixed versions after. Any other behavior is unacceptable.

I guess I don't see the point of running 10dB of gain so I can capture the claps clearly but then have to add 40 more dB in post.

mhibbs · « **Reply #20 on:** May 04, 2006, 11:42:31 AM »

Quote from: cleantone on May 04, 2006, 10:12:50 AM

IMO when your clipping at all your running too hot. I guess some gear you can get away with it without this foldback. I guess I'm wondering if this ONLY happens when your brickwalling? If so I would guess that you would want to run a little quieter and avoid the foldback. If there is a firmware option that will allow you to brickwall a bit without foldback AND that is what you want to do, then you should try that.

Yes, it ONLY happens when it brickwalls...and sure, in an ideal world it should have been run a little quieter. But the meters on the 722 leave a bit to be desired in the upper ranges. You can have it running perfect for 20min w/ the -3db lights blinking only on big drum or transient peaks and still you get an occassional quick spike that jumps over and the majority of the time you don't even notice that it happened b/c it occurred so fast. There's no clip indicator to reset, and no margin meter, so if you were drinking a beer and not staring at the meters all night, you'll invariably miss a few. Of course you could drop another 3db and just "play it safe" but that's a matter of preference. What isn't ok though, is that the 722 is folding the wave over on a minor 4ms clip when it should just square it off like every other converter I've ever owned. I've had some instances in the past when Schools dropped a huge bass note and FOH jacked the sound up for that section so it clipped HARD for about 3-5sec before I got get it turned down and the ad1000 just squared it off as expected. These foldbacks sound like someone hit the mics w/ a fuckin hammer. Bottom line, SD acknowledged that it's a bug and it sounds like it's fixed in that it behaves like you would expect IF/WHEN you happen to accidently clip it (which sometimes is more avoidable than others).

mitch

cleantone · « **Reply #21 on:** May 04, 2006, 12:01:06 PM »

Quote

Yes, it ONLY happens when it brickwalls...and sure, in an ideal world it should have been run a little quieter. But the meters on the 722 leave a bit to be desired in the upper ranges. You can have it running perfect for 20min w/ the -3db lights blinking only on big drum or transient peaks and still you get an occassional quick spike that jumps over and the majority of the time you don't even notice that it happened b/c it occurred so fast. There's no clip indicator to reset, and no margin meter, so if you were drinking a beer and not staring at the meters all night, you'll invariably miss a few. Of course you could drop another 3db and just "play it safe" but that's a matter of preference.

Understood and agreed.

Quote

What isn't ok though, is that the 722 is folding the wave over on a minor 4ms clip when it should just square it off like every other converter I've ever owned. I've had some instances in the past when Schools dropped a huge bass note and FOH jacked the sound up for that section so it clipped HARD for about 3-5sec before I got get it turned down and the ad1000 just squared it off as expected. These foldbacks sound like someone hit the mics w/ a fuckin hammer. Bottom line, SD acknowledged that it's a bug and it sounds like it's fixed in that it behaves like you would expect IF/WHEN you happen to accidently clip it (which sometimes is more avoidable than others).

Understood and agreed again. I just wanted to chime in cause I recognized the problem from the pics. Yes they do sound disgusting. It is jumping from 100% posotive to 100% negative in mid compression motion. Luckily the pencil tool can fix them. Tedious as it may be. I agree that it should not occur.

As for some other comments. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to imply that you guys were doing anything "wrong". I was trying to show a cause and possible solution. I didn't say, nor intend to imply that it was human error as opposed to a firmware bug. The fact remains if the signal was not being brickwalled (which it was), it would not have had foldback (which it did). I'm not trying to tell anyone what levels to run at. Do whatever you like. It's your gear and your recording. Good luck.

Author Topic: 722 Errors???? (Read 5286 times)

RebelRebel