Topic: TASCAM DR-680 portable 8-track #3

[Chuck]

"If a recording level exceeds 2.0 dB below the maximum level, a mark appears at the top of it's meter, indicating an overload." I haven't ever seen the distorted at input stage indicator come on. 2 dB from clipping isn't clipping. Small point, but it's not a true clipping indicator.  I really liked the resettable clip light on the V3...

[NOLAfishwater]

"If a recording level exceeds 2.0 dB below the maximum level, a mark appears at the top of it's meter, indicating an overload." I haven't ever seen the distorted at input stage indicator come on. 2 dB from clipping isn't clipping. Small point, but it's not a true clipping indicator.  I really liked the resettable clip light on the V3...

well then just buy 3 more V3's and you will be set 

[Todd R]

Thanks for that detail, Kirk.

The voltage level doesn't matter from a sound perspective, since it all is digital information.  The voltage level only addresses what is sensed as a digital "one", as opposed to a digital "zero" (zero and one being the only choices with binary encoding).  Thus the voltage level can be problematic with your gear (as in consumer gear expecting a 0.5v digital one might get fried or something if it instead gets a +10v digital one from an AES stream).  But assuming the gear is reading the digital bits correctly, that AES vs spdif voltage level has no effect on the resulting sound.

The Rane note gets at the heart of things -- there is a standard for transmitting digital audio over either the spdif standard or AES standard.  The voltages, impedences and connections are one thing (the hardware side if you will), then there is the software side -- the digital word that represents each of the 44,100 samples per second (or 96k or whatever).  Each digital word has 16-24 bits of audio data (per channel), and then there are something like 8 other bits as part of the "subcode" information.  You should be able to find these with a google search. I looked into them years ago and don't recall what they all are.  One bit is for professional vs consumer (AES vs spdif), one bit is for pre-emphasis on or not, and there are others.

Assuming things are correctly configured, it shouldn't be an issue. 

Patrick -- in testing it, I'd set the 680 to professional/AES or whatever it is.  Then send it a signal from your V3 out of the AES2 output (I think it is the AES2, maybe it is the AES1).  Choose the V3 AES output that is configurable internally via jumpers.  Set the V3 to output a professional output on the AES2 out (or AES1, whichever it is) and send that to the 680.  Then configure the jumpers on the V3 to output a consumer output on that AES output, and send the signal of the same material the using the same cable then same way to the 680 (without changing the pro vs consumer setting of the 680).  This should give you the difference between the professional subcode output and the consumer subcode output.

And this should sound the exact same.  Ultimately, I trust Grace to get it right (and am pretty sure I tested all this to be bit-perfect the same many years ago).  I'm guessing you won't hear any difference this way.

I'd be curious if you tested it this way and didn't hear a difference, and then tested it a different way by changing the pro vs consumer status on the 680.  If you are hearing a difference this latter way, I'd really like to know what is up with Tascam's handling of pro vs consumer (AES vs spdif).  There shouldn't be a difference!!

[phil_er_up]

From Kirk:

"Phil I'm not sure what you mean by saturation since that is really a magnetic tape term but what you record at level X should be the smae as what you record at the higher level Y.  Are you referring to the digital input?  In that case you would be controlling it at the preamp and could adjust you levels so that they peak higher.  IE: halfway between the mid line and the top line.  I think once you;ve used the deck a few times and get a feel for it you will like the way the levels are set up to read. "

------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks kirk, appreciate it.

You are right "saturate" is a magnetic tape term and that dates to when I started taping...LOL

I ran different levels both night and following is the results:

case 1) The recd level meters on DR 680 were set at slightly above the mid line. When I got home and looked at it in wavelab the peak RMS was around -18 db and average was around -28 - 29 DB. Signal in wavelab is quite low and most of the frequency response in only in the 20 - 1000 range.

This is too low of a recording level is what I was trying to indicate in my previous post.

case 2) Then second night I went past the half way point between what to you refer as the "mid line and the top line". The peak RMS in wavelab was around  -8-9DB and a average was around -18 to 19 DB.

Very good signal in wavelab no oversaturation or clipping but it is starting to push towards there. Very good representation of freq. response in wavelab from 20 - 5000 and sometimes levels appearing in 8000 to 1000 range.

This is a slightly high recd level IMO and I should of have lower the recd levels slightly.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So when I asked  for a possible update from tascam for 2 addition bars or dotted lines I wanted them to be at maybe -22 and -19 DB on the display so we could tell what to aim for instead of half between the  "mid line and the top line".

You guys have used the deck more then I have and you have seemed to gotten used to this feature and now you guys like it. I will wait and see but sure thought they could of put 2 more dotted lines for other level besides the "mid line" IMO.

[phil_er_up]

Thanks for that detail, Kirk.

The voltage level doesn't matter from a sound perspective, since it all is digital information.  The voltage level only addresses what is sensed as a digital "one", as opposed to a digital "zero" (zero and one being the only choices with binary encoding).  Thus the voltage level can be problematic with your gear (as in consumer gear expecting a 0.5v digital one might get fried or something if it instead gets a +10v digital one from an AES stream).  But assuming the gear is reading the digital bits correctly, that AES vs spdif voltage level has no effect on the resulting sound.

The Rane note gets at the heart of things -- there is a standard for transmitting digital audio over either the spdif standard or AES standard.  The voltages, impedences and connections are one thing (the hardware side if you will), then there is the software side -- the digital word that represents each of the 44,100 samples per second (or 96k or whatever).  Each digital word has 16-24 bits of audio data (per channel), and then there are something like 8 other bits as part of the "subcode" information.  You should be able to find these with a google search. I looked into them years ago and don't recall what they all are.  One bit is for professional vs consumer (AES vs spdif), one bit is for pre-emphasis on or not, and there are others.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Assuming things are correctly configured, it shouldn't be an issue. 

Patrick -- in testing it, I'd set the 680 to professional/AES or whatever it is.  Then send it a signal from your V3 out of the AES2 output (I think it is the AES2, maybe it is the AES1).  Choose the V3 AES output that is configurable internally via jumpers.  Set the V3 to output a professional output on the AES2 out (or AES1, whichever it is) and send that to the 680.  Then configure the jumpers on the V3 to output a consumer output on that AES output, and send the signal of the same material the using the same cable then same way to the 680 (without changing the pro vs consumer setting of the 680).  This should give you the difference between the professional subcode output and the consumer subcode output.

And this should sound the exact same.  Ultimately, I trust Grace to get it right (and am pretty sure I tested all this to be bit-perfect the same many years ago).  I'm guessing you won't hear any difference this way.

I'd be curious if you tested it this way and didn't hear a difference, and then tested it a different way by changing the pro vs consumer status on the 680.  If you are hearing a difference this latter way, I'd really like to know what is up with Tascam's handling of pro vs consumer (AES vs spdif).  There shouldn't be a difference!!

Thanks todd.

If you like to come over to my house some time we can run test one with the jumpers on the V3.

Todd states:
"I'd be curious if you tested it this way and didn't hear a difference, and then tested it a different way by changing the pro vs consumer status on the 680.  If you are hearing a difference this latter way, I'd really like to know what is up with Tascam's handling of pro vs consumer (AES vs spdif).  There shouldn't be a difference!!"

--------------------------------------------------------

What I thought I  did was change only thing on the menu in the DR680
 
Menu
I/O
D.Out mode = Changed SPIDF to AES

One file was with Digital  OUT MODE = SPIDF
Second file was with Digital  OUT MODE = AES

I was running DPA's XLR into V3 analog XLR input. Digital output XLR's out of V3 (AES) to Female XLR's - TRS cable into channels 5&6 Tascam . I had the SPIDF cable connected from V3 to Digital in on tascam DR680.

This is a easy retest for me or anyone with this rig set up. I will try and make time this week to see if I can test this again.

[kirk97132]

Phil assuming that you are recording in 24 bit(you probably said but I can't remember) Have you tried to just increase your levels in WL?  IE: boost them 8dB.  and then see how things are.  The nice advantage to 24 bit is you can boost levels without getting a bunch of unwanted noise.

[Chuck]

Attached are photos of the snake I recently made for my DR-680.

I made a four channel 17' long snake for the first 4 inputs. Wrapped in .5 inch TechFlex. Thanks goodcooker
I found the colored labels (colored the same as resistor band codes  ) at my local electronics surplus warehouse.

I made a second 12' long pair of cables for the 2 TRS inputs.
Typically I use the TRS inputs for SBD line feed at my local venue. So, 12' works perfectly for that. I also wanted to have one set of cables that were not TechFlexed together for when I run split microphones. 

[phil_er_up]

Thanks for that detail, Kirk.

The voltage level doesn't matter from a sound perspective, since it all is digital information.  The voltage level only addresses what is sensed as a digital "one", as opposed to a digital "zero" (zero and one being the only choices with binary encoding).  Thus the voltage level can be problematic with your gear (as in consumer gear expecting a 0.5v digital one might get fried or something if it instead gets a +10v digital one from an AES stream).  But assuming the gear is reading the digital bits correctly, that AES vs spdif voltage level has no effect on the resulting sound.

The Rane note gets at the heart of things -- there is a standard for transmitting digital audio over either the spdif standard or AES standard.  The voltages, impedences and connections are one thing (the hardware side if you will), then there is the software side -- the digital word that represents each of the 44,100 samples per second (or 96k or whatever).  Each digital word has 16-24 bits of audio data (per channel), and then there are something like 8 other bits as part of the "subcode" information.  You should be able to find these with a google search. I looked into them years ago and don't recall what they all are.  One bit is for professional vs consumer (AES vs spdif), one bit is for pre-emphasis on or not, and there are others.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Assuming things are correctly configured, it shouldn't be an issue. 

Patrick -- in testing it, I'd set the 680 to professional/AES or whatever it is.  Then send it a signal from your V3 out of the AES2 output (I think it is the AES2, maybe it is the AES1).  Choose the V3 AES output that is configurable internally via jumpers.  Set the V3 to output a professional output on the AES2 out (or AES1, whichever it is) and send that to the 680.  Then configure the jumpers on the V3 to output a consumer output on that AES output, and send the signal of the same material the using the same cable then same way to the 680 (without changing the pro vs consumer setting of the 680).  This should give you the difference between the professional subcode output and the consumer subcode output.

And this should sound the exact same.  Ultimately, I trust Grace to get it right (and am pretty sure I tested all this to be bit-perfect the same many years ago).  I'm guessing you won't hear any difference this way.

I'd be curious if you tested it this way and didn't hear a difference, and then tested it a different way by changing the pro vs consumer status on the 680.  If you are hearing a difference this latter way, I'd really like to know what is up with Tascam's handling of pro vs consumer (AES vs spdif).  There shouldn't be a difference!!

Thanks todd.

If you like to come over to my house some time we can run test one with the jumpers on the V3.

Todd states:
"I'd be curious if you tested it this way and didn't hear a difference, and then tested it a different way by changing the pro vs consumer status on the 680.  If you are hearing a difference this latter way, I'd really like to know what is up with Tascam's handling of pro vs consumer (AES vs spdif).  There shouldn't be a difference!!"

--------------------------------------------------------

What I thought I  did was change only thing on the menu in the DR680
 
Menu
I/O
D.Out mode = Changed SPIDF to AES

One file was with Digital  OUT MODE = SPIDF
Second file was with Digital  OUT MODE = AES

I was running DPA's XLR into V3 analog XLR input. Digital output XLR's out of V3 (AES) to Female XLR's - TRS cable into channels 5&6 Tascam . I had the SPIDF cable connected from V3 to Digital in on tascam DR680.

This is a easy retest for me or anyone with this rig set up. I will try and make time this week to see if I can test this again.

I reran the test today and there is no difference between those 2 modes. It was a pilot error. Not sure what I did the first time

[phil_er_up]

Attached are photos of the snake I recently made for my DR-680.

I made a four channel 17' long snake for the first 4 inputs. Wrapped in .5 inch TechFlex. Thanks goodcooker
I found the colored labels (colored the same as resistor band codes  ) at my local electronics surplus warehouse.

I made a second 12' long pair of cables for the 2 TRS inputs.
Typically I use the TRS inputs for SBD line feed at my local venue. So, 12' works perfectly for that. I also wanted to have one set of cables that were not TechFlexed together for when I run split microphones.

Nice chuck.

[goodcooker]

I also wanted to have one set of cables that were not TechFlexed together for when I run split microphones.

Kewl. That is some real skinny cable so that Tecflex is a little baggy but it will be easy to coil and uncoil.

Can you phantom power mics on the 5/6 TRS inputs? One of the reasons I always ran TRS cables for the board patch into combo jacks on my R4 was that phantom was active on the XLR but not the TRS so I knew I would never fry anyone's console by accidentally sending power back to the outs on the SBD if I got a little 

[darby]

Can you phantom power mics on the 5/6 TRS inputs? One of the reasons I always ran TRS cables for the board patch into combo jacks on my R4 was that phantom was active on the XLR but not the TRS so I knew I would never fry anyone's console by accidentally sending power back to the outs on the SBD if I got a little 

yes you can phantom power on 5/6 TRS

[F.O.Bean]

I really liked the resettable clip light on the V3...

Me too, I really miss that peak hold

I have been seriously contemplating a 680. Is ANYONE doing mods on them yet? I have even thought of running:

MBHO>722>680 +
MBHO>LB>680

Or just getting some Audix micros[hypers of course ] and running:

MBHO>LB>680 +
Audix>722>680

Even Chucks Furthur recordings sound EXCELLENT w/ just running 483>stock 680. In fact, I think the 680's preamps are right up there w/ the 7xx preamps, at least IMO of course!

[phil_er_up]

I really liked the resettable clip light on the V3...

Me too, I really miss that peak hold

I have been seriously contemplating a 680. Is ANYONE doing mods on them yet? I have even thought of running:

MBHO>722>680 +
MBHO>LB>680

Or just getting some Audix micros[hypers of course ] and running:

MBHO>LB>680 +
Audix>722>680

Even Chucks Furthur recordings sound EXCELLENT w/ just running 483>stock 680. In fact, I think the 680's preamps are right up there w/ the 7xx preamps, at least IMO of course!

Busman is doing mods and the cost is $1100 for all 6 channels.
http://www.busmanaudio.com/mods.html

 There is a discussion I think it was in Part 2 of this thread on the pro/cons of the mod. Some I had never thought of before.

[Myco]

I really liked the resettable clip light on the V3...

Me too, I really miss that peak hold

I have been seriously contemplating a 680. Is ANYONE doing mods on them yet? I have even thought of running:

MBHO>722>680 +
MBHO>LB>680

Or just getting some Audix micros[hypers of course ] and running:

MBHO>LB>680 +
Audix>722>680

Even Chucks Furthur recordings sound EXCELLENT w/ just running 483>stock 680. In fact, I think the 680's preamps are right up there w/ the 7xx preamps, at least IMO of course!

Busman is doing mods and the cost is $1100 for all 6 channels.
http://www.busmanaudio.com/mods.html

 There is a discussion I think it was in Part 2 of this thread on the pro/cons of the mod. Some I had never thought of before.

Phil, you have it wrong, that is way too much. Here is the email I got from Chris personally. The link you've supplied even breaks it down by 2,4, & 6 channels.

Mike,

The mod is a change of all the input op amps and all of the input capacitors.  I change the values of the input caps and use elna silmic II caps which have a nice detailed but warm tone not to be confused with a warm type mod.  These just give a better sound throughout the audio band while giving great bass response and smooth top end without harshness.  I feel the sound of these mods and this recorder in general is much better than the R44.  I have always liked the converters that tascam uses and this is no exception.  The stock preamps leave a lot to be desired in my opinion.  I know others have posted that I thought the stock sound was just fine but that is not true.     My statements were that it works ok out of the box but sound wise it is closed in on the soundstage while being very unflattering to music with no life to the sound.    The mods also give better noise floor which in concert recording doesn’t really matter anyway because the signal is so strong to begin with.

I normally charge $300 for all 6 channels.

[johnw]

It's $1100 for a new unit with a mod on all 6 channels or $300 for the mod to all 6 and you supply the unit.