Topic: Too much crowd noise... suggestions on how to tape next time?

[su6oxone]

I taped Lotus on Fri at the Recher in Towson, MD and got a decent sounding tape but too much crowd noise.  The venue is a relatively smallish, 630 capacity, rectangular shaped room without a balcony, and with two large stacks next to the stage (maybe 5' high, sitting on the floor I believe).  Very high volume venue, and I've taped there several times and gotten varying results, from okay to pretty good.  The taping section is along the left wall, about midway back, behind a small SBD area.  I set up my stand 9' high with MK4s in DIN, with the axis between the MK4s pointed generally towards the point between the two stacks.  Here is the link:

http://www.archive.org/details/lotus2009-02-13.mk4.flac16

In the past at the Recher, I've flown my stand higher at 11' usually, so that the mics are higher than the top of the stacks, with the hopes that it would decrease the crowd noise.  Here is a show I did this way (with KM184 in DIN):

http://www.archive.org/details/ccope2009-01-27.km184.flac16

There is still significant crowd noise in this one too though, and I thought it might be due to the mics being a few feet above the top of the speakers and that they were getting 'less SPL' (I doubt this is the proper way to describe it), therefore for Lotus I dropped the stand to 9' but the crowd noise seems worse. 

Next time, are there any things I can do to improve my recording, like decreasing the angle (from 90 degrees) or just going A-B and point at the stack closest to the left-sided taping section?  Unfortunately, I don't have MK41s so I can't try out hypers.

Any critique, comments, or suggestions would be great, thanks!

[F.O.Bean]

Either decrease your angle, or just run PAS=pointed at stacks Run your stand higher too! Other than that, id trade those cards in for some mk41 hypers

Just another reason why I run hypers 99% of the time

[su6oxone]

Either decrease your angle, or just run PAS=pointed at stacks Run your stand higher too! Other than that, id trade those cards in for some mk41 hypers

Just another reason why I run hypers 99% of the time

Generally, how does putting your mics some 5' above the floor stacks affect the 'volume' of the music hitting the mics?  I think next time I'll try going back to 11' and maybe just go A-B, although I wonder how that will affect the recording by losing much of the stereo effect from using a DIN configuration.  I would go for MK41s but I worry about that rear pickup pattern they have. 

Thanks for the input Bean.  Btw, someone at the Lotus show asked me if I was 'diskobean' when he saw my rig. 

[SmokinJoe]

Generally, how does putting your mics some 5' above the floor stacks affect the 'volume' of the music hitting the mics? 

Fundamentally, to increase your signal to noise ratio, get as close as possible to the sound you want, and as far as you can from the sound you don't want.  Yeah, I know, easier said than done.  If you can't get closer to the stacks, getting higher in the air gets you further from the chatty cathy standing below your mics.  Does it fix it? no.  Does it help?  probably a little.

[su6oxone]

Fundamentally, to increase your signal to noise ratio, get as close as possible to the sound you want, and as far as you can from the sound you don't want.  Yeah, I know, easier said than done.  If you can't get closer to the stacks, getting higher in the air gets you further from the chatty cathy standing below your mics.  Does it fix it? no.  Does it help?  probably a little.

Thanks for the input SmokinJoe.  Guess I'll try going back to higher up, and then A-B the mics next time. 

[stevetoney]

This isn't what you're looking for I know, but you could buy an nbox and put the caps in a hat, then stand DFC maybe 15 feet in front of the stage, or if you wanted to get all of the crowd of the recording, forget about stereo and put industrial grade ear plugs in and stand directly in front of the left stack.

I've recorded the Recher a number of times too.  We have a place here in Pittsburgh that's almost identical to the Recher (in terms of layout and size) called the Rex Theater.  They're both pretty tough venue's to get a good sound in, for sure. 

Actually, the Recher is better than The State Theater though...man that place gets some good bands, but the sound in the State is rough!

[su6oxone]

This isn't what you're looking for I know, but you could buy an nbox and put the caps in a hat, then stand DFC maybe 15 feet in front of the stage, or if you wanted to get all of the crowd of the recording, forget about stereo and put industrial grade ear plugs in and stand directly in front of the left stack.

That's a good idea, I think I'll probably try it out at some point for a show I'm really motivated to tape st***th. 

[manitouman]

I've pretty much abandoned using mic configurations due to the fact that no venue is perfect for a true configuration. A fellow taper told me to aim for the outside of the stacks. I've done this even when I'm dead front center of the board. I used to be anal about getting a perfect DIN or DINa. Screw all that. Different venues and taping locations, you get to the point of just point to the outside of the L and R stacks and you should be golden. You may have to adjust and balance the two channels in post but hell that's better than getting a shitty recording.

Hypers can help but they will be a different sound. You will cut down on the chatter though, just brighter. Never had the Schoeps and wouldn't dog them either but I have run quite a few different CHEAPER mics and still had great results.

My $0.02 anyways. 

[F.O.Bean]

Either decrease your angle, or just run PAS=pointed at stacks Run your stand higher too! Other than that, id trade those cards in for some mk41 hypers

Just another reason why I run hypers 99% of the time

Generally, how does putting your mics some 5' above the floor stacks affect the 'volume' of the music hitting the mics?  I think next time I'll try going back to 11' and maybe just go A-B, although I wonder how that will affect the recording by losing much of the stereo effect from using a DIN configuration.  I would go for MK41s but I worry about that rear pickup pattern they have. 

Thanks for the input Bean.  Btw, someone at the Lotus show asked me if I was 'diskobean' when he saw my rig. 

Really? Thats to funny I have alot of Lotus fans that REALLY LIKE my recordings of them. Ive been putting out PHANTASTIC Lotus recordings since 2004

And your mics can be higher, without the overall volume of the recording suffering I ALWAYS run at around 11-12' high at Mr. Smalls Theatre, and the results, IMO, are superb

And dont worry about that rear lobe on the hypers Theyre a MUCH MORE directional capsule than cards, and I NEVER pick up chatter rom that rear lobe when I run at say, 12' high Check out my 11/28/2008 Lotus recording for a great example of running Hypers/DINa at about 12' high

Best of luck!

Bean

[setboy]

i would try hypers. I know i have cut out a lot of noise with hypers and shotguns

[su6oxone]

Thanks guys for the suggestions!  I'll have to pick up a pair of MK41s somewhere down the road...

Nice Lotus tapes Bean, that amount of crowd noise is more acceptable IMO. 

[rsimms3]

A few things I have learned taping:
1. The closer to the source you are, the less angle you put your mics in, in other words your mics become more parrallel in configuration.
2. Get as high as you can without getting "stuff" in the line of sight between the mics and the speakers.  Ceiling fans, girders, and lights all bounce sound.
3. Speakers are placed differently.  Some are on the floor, like in your case, some are hanging from the ceiling and angled toward the floor and listener.  In that case, you can run less high and angle the mics in an upward direction toward the sound source.   

[Brian Skalinder]

1. The closer to the source you are, the less angle you put your mics in, in other words your mics become more parrallel in configuration.

IMO, this is far too simplistic a "lesson" to be useful in any given situation.  Both angle and spacing contribute to the mic configuration's results.  All else being equal, it's important to take into account both (in addition to distance to the sound source, and the width / height / depth of the sound source) when setting up one's mics.

Check the top stickied post the Microphones & Setup forum, which includes a link to the Stereophonic Zoom.  Well worth taking the time to read and understand how -- all else being equal -- the angle and spacing, together, contribute to the results.  It's not the be-all, end-all for telling one how to set up one's mics in any given situation, but it helps one understand the relationship between the mic configuration's angle and spacing, distance from the sound source, and the sound source's width.

[stevetoney]

I'm beginning to think that we've become TOO lax here on TS.com with our definition of mic configurations, although obviously, everyone is free to put their mics in whatever config they desire.

But there seems to be a popular movement to simply say that pointing at the source is best.  Well, as Brian points out, it might NOT be the best. 

Everyone needs to consider the situation in which they are recording (the room, the sound source location, etc) AND what are the specific goals of the recordists.  For example, one persons goal may be to best replicate the sound in the room...another may be to get the absolute cleanest direct sound coming out of the PA...those are different goals in my mind.  A third might be to replicate the room, but minimize chatter.

We can't always assume that, what is best for us is carte blanche the same for everyone. 

[spyder9]

If DFC, aim directly at the stacks.  XY if not.  Taze all talkers.       

[dactylus]

Taze all talkers.       

^ Absolutely.   

[rsimms3]

1. The closer to the source you are, the less angle you put your mics in, in other words your mics become more parrallel in configuration.

IMO, this is far too simplistic a "lesson" to be useful in any given situation.  Both angle and spacing contribute to the mic configuration's results.  All else being equal, it's important to take into account both (in addition to distance to the sound source, and the width / height / depth of the sound source) when setting up one's mics.

Check the top stickied post the Microphones & Setup forum, which includes a link to the Stereophonic Zoom.  Well worth taking the time to read and understand how -- all else being equal -- the angle and spacing, together, contribute to the results.  It's not the be-all, end-all for telling one how to set up one's mics in any given situation, but it helps one understand the relationship between the mic configuration's angle and spacing, distance from the sound source, and the sound source's width.

Hence the beginning of the comment -

A few things I have learned taping:

As opposed to - "I do this, you should too." 

I usually run 90 degree spacing, whatever that is.  DIN?  DINa?  I have no clue.  Generally I point to the outside of the stacks when I run a stand and most times it turns out okay.  If I am running straight on a single stack that is far spaced from the other side I run closer, more toward 60 degrees or less.  Overall, those tapes have turned out well for me.  As far as I know, and I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong, but mic configs really don't take into account the moving objects that can come into the sound field, do they?  What about balloons, is there a mic config for that?  Yes, configurations are a good reference point and should be reviewed, but no means are they an end all, be all.  The question was how to reduce crowd noise.  A few simple answers - get hypers, run higher, taze the talkers, patch the board, and buy the Band Produced copy.  Most of those though, aren't helpful to this fella.  He, and others, can certainly take any information for their own benefit to evaluate.  I was shaing my experience. 

[barrettphisher]

Pure stack tapes can help as well.  Had to do it before but its at least listenable.
Barrett

[Brian Skalinder]

Hence the beginning of the comment -

A few things I have learned taping:

As opposed to - "I do this, you should too."

You fooled me with:

1. The closer to the source you are, the less angle you put your mics in, in other words your mics become more parrallel in configuration.

Not sure the point of your balloon spiel, but I'm a little slow sometimes. 

At any rate, I think the simple answers so far -- hypers, run higher / closer, patch board, point-at-stacks (more generally, reduce the included angle, which is where the Williams Stereophonic Zoom paper comes in:  it helps one understand what happens when one changes spacing and angles), etc. -- are helpful.  Perhaps the OP won't try all of them, but they're all valid responses to the question "How to reduce crowd noise?".  Thanks for sharing your experiences.

[rsimms3]

Hence the beginning of the comment -

A few things I have learned taping:

As opposed to - "I do this, you should too."

You fooled me with:

1. The closer to the source you are, the less angle you put your mics in, in other words your mics become more parrallel in configuration.

Not sure the point of your balloon spiel, but I'm a little slow sometimes. 

At any rate, I think the simple answers so far -- hypers, run higher / closer, patch board, point-at-stacks (more generally, reduce the included angle, which is where the Williams Stereophonic Zoom paper comes in:  it helps one understand what happens when one changes spacing and angles), etc. -- are helpful.  Perhaps the OP won't try all of them, but they're all valid responses to the question "How to reduce crowd noise?".  Thanks for sharing your experiences.

Yes, I do see how saying I and then later You would be confusing.  It does presuppose I am being directive, but in this case it was poor grammar.  Instead I was being suggestive, but my use of You was incorrect.

The spiel about the balloons was an attempt at humor in pointing out that mic configurations are based on equal variables.  The calculations are based on unobstructed sound paths from the source to the microphones or accounting for all variables.

  It is essential to attenuate reflections from the ceiling,
floor and walls and in addition, symmetry should
be maintained in relation to the shape of the listening
room, so that any remaining reflections affect
equally the sound heard from the left and right
channels. Only then will the conditions be adequate
to hear with clarity and precision the stereophonic
image generated by the specific microphone system
used during the recording session.

Ever been to a Flaming Lips show?  The point was, you should research for yourself and try out new things.  There are lots of things that come up that aren't/can't be accounted for in ever situation or configuration.