Topic: best portable digital recorder to record trumpet

[fintonissimo]

Hello all, I just waded through 26 pages of posts about the Sony PCM-M10 which I am considering buying.

I am not an audiofile, and I don't have a lot of knowledge about recording, but I do understand a little bit.

I am interested in the PCM-M10 because it does most of what I would want it for very well. Especially, I'm impressed by its ability to record and playback easily with its own internal speaker, and that with the pitch control, I can slow down what I playback to analyze as a music teacher, or also for my own practice sessions. However, I'm concerned that it won't give me quite the quality I would want for recording demos (trumpet alone), solo recitals, or concerts of orchestral or chamber music.

If I plugged an external mic into the M-10, could I achieve what I want (higher quality comparable say with the more expensive D-50 using its internal mics )? Which external mic would work well for recording trumpet, which is a source of loud sound with very intense highs? Would it make sense to buy the Sony M-10 and then a higher priced unit in addition to that for more quality, or could I get the higher quality using the M-10 with a nice external mic?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

Chuck

[stevetoney]

While I can't comment specifically on the sound improvement you might see (if any) between the internal mics on a D10 versus a D50, I can say without too much reservation that if you purchased the D10 and then invested the incremental amount you'd have spent on the D50 on external mics, your sound quality would, in all likelihood, improve significantly more than if you were to buy the higher priced recorder.  (The price difference of the higher price recorder probably is not due to improved mic quality.)

The standard starting point for price versus quality that is recommended here is the Church Audio CA-14 with the ST-9100 preamp...which would new be around $300, but I've recently seen sell used here for $200.  Links and details are provided in the taperssection retail subforum. 

You'd probably want the preamp since, as you state, your sound pressure levels with the trumpet will get quite high and the preamp will help sustain these levels without any sound distortion.

This mic/preamp combo have outstanding sound quality which, for the money, can't be beat.  Search on www.archive.org for the term 'ca-14' and you'll find samples if you'd like to check out what they sound like.

[fintonissimo]

To clarify, it sounds to me like you are saying yes, that I could purchase a decent mic setup with a pre amp to use with the Sony PCM-M10; and that it would provide me with sound quality equal to or better than the Sony PCM-D50 with just the internal mics. As long as it isn't too much more money, I might consider that.

I currently own and use the AT822 DAT mic with my Sony TCD-D8 DAT. Could I use the single AT822 mic with the M10, or would I get much better results with the the mic setup you have suggested?

Being a newb, maybe I've posted in the wrong forum. Maybe this should really be in the Mic setup forum...I may repost my question there.

Are there any trumpet players out there or people who record  brass who can tell me specifically what works the best for my situation; recording trumpet alone or in a recital situation? I posted the same question to an internet trumpet group. The consensus there was that it would make more sense to buy the D50 rather than to try to make the M10 sound better with external mics.

Any thoughts? I'm not opposed to spending money, but I do want to spend it wisely!

[stevetoney]

My previous answer was simply based on what the general concensus is here on ts.com is.  I mean, if you're asking, will I get a better sound with external mics...the answer is 'without a doubt!'  However, it's all a matter of what you would want to spend, because out board mics can of course get very expensive. 

It's fairly common advice here that the sound that someone considers acceptable to their ears is a subjective thing, so it's probably best for you to decide on your own.  I've provided a couple of samples as a starting point below...

Here's a sample of a live recording that was made with the D50 internal mics...

http://www.archive.org/details/ssun2009-03-26.aud.pcm-d50.flac16

...and here's a sample with Church Audio CA-14 cardioids...

http://www.archive.org/details/macpodz2009-07-24

I chose the second sample because it has horns, but I recorded that show from the back of the room.

Here's a sample I recorded with CA-14 omni's from dead center in front of the band...

http://www.archive.org/details/toubab2009-08-14.ca14o

Hope this helps a little.

[fintonissimo]

Thanks for your reply and for posting the sound samples. It is hard for me to make a comparison to the recordings because it isn't the same music for each of the 3 samples. However, I could tell some general differences even though I'm only listening back on my cheapo computer speakers. I was impressed with the sound of the 1st sample, using just the internal mics. The timbre seemed brighter to me, which I liked.

It is too bad I can't hear some samples of trumpet alone recorded. Ultimately I'd like to hear the same music/licks, recorded in the same room, with different mic setups. That way I will have isolated the only difference as being in the mic setups. I've been frequenting the Wingfield Audio website and listening to the samples there...however, again, there are no samples of trumpet. Hearing that would really give me a solid idea to go off of.

I don't know any audio stores around here anymore that I could test out the equipment before buying it, so I've been scouring the internet for opinions. In a very general sense, I'm pretty sure I won't be disappointed with the D50 if I buy one; but because I was attracted to the internal playback abilities of the M10 as well as some other features not present on the D50, I was trying to find a way to justify buying the M10 instead. The only way I can justify it is if I feel that I can somehow get quality equal to the D50 in sound. However, maybe it isn't worth the trouble. I can still listen back using headphones with the D50, and it has the pitch control feature just like the M10. If I bought both units, that would solve the problem...maybe that's what I should do!

 

[guysonic]

M10 deck has excellent low noise and is VERY overload resistant with up to +2 dBu input ability in LOW mic input setting.  That's more than some decks will accept without overload going LINE in!!!

So NO need for external preamplifier, AND reports on TS recording VERY loud rock using internal mics with excellent sound (for internal deck mics).

So suggest just buying the M10 and trying deck's mic on horns.  If wanting top quality, then I have DSM-6S/L mics for highest possible stereo-surround audio quality, and M10 powers these mics perfectly without needing a battery module like is needed for all other external condenser type mics including those suggested from Church.

See: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=83254.0;all

[fmaderjr]

Here's a used pair of guysonic's mics if you are interested. They sound like they are in good shape, but guy can recondition them for a reasonable price (I'm guessing around $100 or so) if it makes you feel better or if you later find it necessary. As guy said you wouldn't need to use the battery box  with the M10 or D50.
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=129981.0

The M10's internal mics sound excellent and I think you would make just as good recordings with an M10 as with a D50, but don't buy it for the internal speaker. No recorder with a built in speaker has a decent one-I don't think it's possible. It is low volume and not good quality. You will really need to use a good pair of head phones to tell what your recording sounds like. The headphone amplifier is excellent.

I would take tonedeaf's advice and get the M10 and put the money you save over the D50 into the mics you select. It would make no sense to buy both recorders thinking your D50 recording will sound audibly better. It could make sense, though, to buy an external preamp like the Church Audio ST-9100 in addition to the M10 and an external mic. Many external mics will require a battery box if you don't get the preamp, although I believe illconditioned has listed a number of mics he has used successfully mic in with no battery box.

[ilduclo]

I am getting excellent results with the d50 using the on board mics for some very quiet and extremely loud recordings.  I would recommend this for your use, very simple interface and easy to use.

[fintonissimo]

Thanks everybody for the info and suggestions. In regards to the M10, I think the internal speaker would be a very nice useful perk, even though I know that the sound quality wouldn't be great. However, as a private lesson teacher, I could whip it out quickly, record a student, and play it back so both of us could hear it; and I could make comments. I could also slow it down with pitch control to further show a student where the problems are, like using a magnifying glass. Sound quality wouldn't be great, but it wouldn't lie about pitch and rhythm, and the student would hear right away what I'm reacting to. That's why I am very interested in the M10 as opposed to the D50, plus some of the other added features. Although the D50 has the pitch control, I'd have to plug in dual headphones to have the student hear it back together with me at the same time. I guess that's not so bad, but it is one extra step. I'm attracted to the convenience factor of the M10 in that regard.

I emailed somebody on the trumpet group that I posted to that has the D50 and loves it. He doesn't use any external mic and got great results. I listened to his clips online and was very impressed. Being a musician and not as advanced as many of you are in the field of recording, I very much like the simplicity factor of not having to attach any mics and having a minimal amount of setting up to record.

So, I don't know for sure where that leads me. One thing I can appreciate is the fact that even though it is convenient to use the built in mics, it is then inconvenient to monitor the sound levels if it is mounted high up on a mic stand. I guess for that reason alone as well as others I could be talked into going more the external mic route. I am still digesting the info from the posts, but guysonic's mics are very intriguing to me. Forgive my ignorance, but can these mics be mounted on a standard mic stand?

Thanks again, Chuck   

[acidjack]

Thanks everybody for the info and suggestions. In regards to the M10, I think the internal speaker would be a very nice useful perk, even though I know that the sound quality wouldn't be great. However, as a private lesson teacher, I could whip it out quickly, record a student, and play it back so both of us could hear it; and I could make comments. I could also slow it down with pitch control to further show a student where the problems are, like using a magnifying glass. Sound quality wouldn't be great, but it wouldn't lie about pitch and rhythm, and the student would hear right away what I'm reacting to. That's why I am very interested in the M10 as opposed to the D50, plus some of the other added features. Although the D50 has the pitch control, I'd have to plug in dual headphones to have the student hear it back together with me at the same time. I guess that's not so bad, but it is one extra step. I'm attracted to the convenience factor of the M10 in that regard.

I emailed somebody on the trumpet group that I posted to that has the D50 and loves it. He doesn't use any external mic and got great results. I listened to his clips online and was very impressed. Being a musician and not as advanced as many of you are in the field of recording, I very much like the simplicity factor of not having to attach any mics and having a minimal amount of setting up to record.

So, I don't know for sure where that leads me. One thing I can appreciate is the fact that even though it is convenient to use the built in mics, it is then inconvenient to monitor the sound levels if it is mounted high up on a mic stand. I guess for that reason alone as well as others I could be talked into going more the external mic route. I am still digesting the info from the posts, but guysonic's mics are very intriguing to me. Forgive my ignorance, but can these mics be mounted on a standard mic stand?

Thanks again, Chuck

Yes, any of the external mics mentioned can be mounted on a stand, though it's not strictly necessary since they are so small - you could put them on the edges of a music stand, for instance.  However, there are simple mounts available that will work with a normal stand.  They cost about $50 all-in. 

Sounds to me like you should get an M10 and see how you like it.  If you want better sound, then upgrade to better external mics.  I tend to agree with others that if you really want high quality, you should get external mics, and the likely difference between the D50 and M10, especially when cost is factored in, is probably negligible on the internals.

[fintonissimo]

guysonic's mics are very intriguing to me. Forgive my ignorance, but can these mics be mounted on a standard mic stand?

Yes, any of the external mics mentioned can be mounted on a stand, though it's not strictly necessary since they are so small - you could put them on the edges of a music stand, for instance.  However, there are simple mounts available that will work with a normal stand.  They cost about $50 all-in. 

[/quote]

Just making sure you understood I was wondering about whether or not the DSM-6S/L were mountable on a standard mic stand, since it appears they are designed to be worn on the head...

[Will_S]

Since no one else seems to have picked up on the fact that you already own an AT822:

Yes, it will work fine with a PCM M-10 (or D50).  And as you know it is quite easy to stand-mount it in the right position.  The other mics mentioned offer more flexibility in terms of setting up for different stereo imaging, but for recording a single trumpet that's not of any obvious advantage and they'll prove a little bit harder (though by no means impossible) to mount to a standard mic stand.

For recording amplified music from a distance, the other mics mentioned in this thread have definite advantages, but for what you want to do, I think the AT822 should work just fine, and you already have it.

Edit:  And as to mounting the DSM mics to a standard mic stand:  Sure, you can tape them to a stand, or jerry-rig some sort of mount.  But they aren't designed to mate cleanly with a stock stand.  To get them to work as designed, you need to have some sort of baffle between them (e.g. a real head, or an artificial substitute - doing this exactly right is not cheap but you can get acceptable results with a variety of baffles, or by spacing the mics by a foot or more).

[fmaderjr]

as to mounting the DSM mics to a standard mic stand:   To get them to work as designed, you need to have some sort of baffle between them (e.g. a real head, or an artificial substitute - doing this exactly right is not cheap but you can get acceptable results with a variety of baffles, or by spacing the mics by a foot or more).

I wouldn't dream of paying a lot of money for a dummy head. I think guysonic's is somthing like $250.

Do you think a large plastic coffee can filled with the right material inside would work fairy well? Or would the reflective surface of the can screw things up? I've thought of trying this for some time, but I guess it would be necessary to glue something like fake fur on the outside of the can to have a chance for it to work decently.

[acidjack]

guysonic's mics are very intriguing to me. Forgive my ignorance, but can these mics be mounted on a standard mic stand?

Yes, any of the external mics mentioned can be mounted on a stand, though it's not strictly necessary since they are so small - you could put them on the edges of a music stand, for instance.  However, there are simple mounts available that will work with a normal stand.  They cost about $50 all-in. 

Just making sure you understood I was wondering about whether or not the DSM-6S/L were mountable on a standard mic stand, since it appears they are designed to be worn on the head...
[/quote]

There are a variety of ways to mount these types of mics... the key would be the object you put on top of the mic stand.  The SS mics are shaped in such a way that they would either need to be on glasses or on something they could be looped or taped to.  There are pictures on here of people using that type of mic on a Mr. Potato Head, a nerf ball, etc.  Easiest, as Will_S alludes to, is probably to get a large nerf ball or other type of baffle and stick it on top of the mic stand, or place it somewhere that it would pick up sound properly.  I do not think you need a dummy head. 

[fintonissimo]

[quote For recording amplified music from a distance, the other mics mentioned in this thread have definite advantages, but for what you want to do, I think the AT822 should work just fine, and you already have it.
[/quote]

That's what I have thought/wondered all along! However, I asked Wingfield Audio the same question, and they said my results with the internal mics of either Sony would be BETTER than with the AT822 DAT mic. I do recognize that it's a matter of taste and opinion. However, I've received 2 other opinions from different forums which basically said that the AT822 was a viable option.

I want to keep things as simple as possible, and also not spend money unless it is necessary. If I know for sure that spending money on external mics is going to make a big difference, I'm willing to do it; however, only up to a point. After all, I spent about $800 for my Sony DAT and another couple hundred for that mic in 1998. I'm not willing to spend $1000 on a new mic system, but I might consider up to half of that. I'm probably not going to spend money on Sony's furry windscreen, either if I can find something cheaper that basically does the same thing!

In regards to the DSM mic option, isn't part of the design of the mic meant to work in conjunction with the conductive nature of a real human head, flesh and bone as well as space? Therefore, it seems to me you would be defeating the purpose of the design if you use the mics in a different way...but I don't know enough about this to really say. That's why I'm asking.