Topic: First recordings coming up

[roskile]

Hi guys,

I just want to thank everyone who has provided help to me in my short time here. There is a lot that I have learned...and there is a lot that I still must learn.

There are two, maybe three, concerts upcoming that I plan on taping. These will also be my first ever attempts. A week from today I will be going to see the Deftones and then Skinny Puppy soon after. I'm really not sure what I am more nervous/excited about..the fact that this will be my first concert since 1998, or the fact that I will be attempting to tape it.

My setup is a Sony PCM-M1>TFB-2 CARDIOID(ear mounted mics)>SP-SPSB-2M3(Mini Premium Battery Module w/bass rolloff).

Both the Deftones and Skinny Puppy concerts are general admission. Obviously I want to stay out of the front section to avoid the mosh pit. But where else can I stand to get the most out of the sound?

Also, how should I adjust the bass rolloff for the mics and how do I choose the volume to record at? Can this only be done by checking the levels during recording to make sure that it is not clipping?

I remember someone mentioning earlier to go line in instead of mic in, should I adjust the setting on the dat recorder to line in? And what are the advantages over this?

I've also read that brand new dat tapes should be fastforwarded in the unit once to spread the tape lubricants and loosen the tape up. Is this recommended?

I hope you all don't mind the questions. I know that the only true way to find all this out is to try it on my own and experiment. However, I would like to have an idea of how to maximize the settings and whatnot beforehand so I can further understand the process and motions.

Regards,
roskile

[Humbug]

Refer to the taping guide...oh it aint ready yet 

First off you've got the sound going the wrong way - it should be mics>battery box>recorder!

Anyway I've done some digging on the sound pro site, and figured out those mics (AT831s) are the same as in my CMC2s.

I use typically 95 or 107 Hz bass roll-off for loud rock shows. 16Hz is for acoustic, and 160Hz should only be used for bands with a very loud bassist. Adjust to suit the band you are going to see.

Try standing dead centre, right behind the mosh pit. If you end up IN the mosh pit, move back a little..

Go line in, I'm pretty sure with the M1 (never used one) that you will overload the levels going mic-in.

Good luck!

[John R]

i wouldn't be packing you tape using the m1, it'll wear out your motors.  i do mine (most of the time) on a full size deck.  if you don't have one don't worry.  what you do want to worry about is that you're recording in absolute time mode.  i have absolutely no clue where the mode button is on an m1, but as you scroll through it will appear as a-time. 

be sure you have fresh batteries, and back-up batteries.

learn to use your rig in the dark, now.  practice so that you know the feel of the buttons so you don't have to look(if it's that stealthy a situation)  once you have things squared away, engage the hold button, so you don't do anything silly by mistake.  now all you need to worry about is the gain.

sweet spot should be just behind the mosh pit.  don't get too close to the sbd, or they'll see you being the only person not moving and bust you.  going with friends?  enlist them to block for you.  don't let them talk shit about going upfront to check out the hottie, etc.  they'll all want a copy of the show, and they'll want it to be as good as you do, have them help it be that way.  if there are other stealthers there, you guys will spot each other right away, combine forces.

go to the bathroom before the show

good luck

jr

[pfife]

I second the notion of going to the bathroom early.   Here's some other advice:

As far as where to stand, I always try to get in the center - in your mind, make a equilateral triangle between the stax on the R, the stax on the L, and the third point would be where you would want to stand, ideally.  What I have also learned is that I learn venues- the other evening I taped the black keys, and I was standing pretty far back, and I think it woulda sounded better had I gotten closer to the stax.  So, this Monday, for Dillinger Escape Plan, I am going to stand up closer than I was the other day.  Sooner or later, you'll tweak it, and get the sound you like the best for your recordings.

Another thing- with those ear mounted mics- your tapes are going to be extremely sensitive to head movement; Stand as still as possible, and don't look to the sides- you'll definately hear it in the tapes, expecially if they are cardoids.  Its a little less dramatic if they are omnis, but definately still noticable.   But also, if you have omni caps, in your source information, be sure to note that they are a true binaural recording;  And be sure to check out the recording on headphones too when you get home- because ideally, with omnis placed by your ears and split by your head, the recording should recreate exactly what was heard (barring mic and preamp coloration, obviously).

Don't get too upset if the tape doesn't come out as good as you would have hoped- we've all muffed them b4.

And, have fun.  Hopefully you get to hear some stuff from "Too Dark Park" .   Finally, share the tape.  Don't sell it. 

+t for startin out.

[snapple ryes]

i wish i knew more about DAT decks so as to give you some more advice on this. it's great that you're taping the deftones, i've been trying like crazy to find as many people as possible to tape them on this tour.
i dont know why, but almost every deftones recording i've heard has serious bass distortion problems. they're a pretty bassy live band judging from the few times i've seen them play. id suggest setting the bass levels just a little lower than whatever seems right at the time. at least a lack of bass can be EQ'd or tinkered with later on...whereas distortion will be a permanent annoyance on a recording.

other than that, yeah. the obvious dont stick around where the crowd is too thick to minimize crowd noise thing....

as for the bobbing of the head while taping, i've done that several times i've recorded and normally dont notice any sound difference at all from the times i do bob my head and the times i dont. and i use stealth cardiod mics(fuck binaural's!).

[pfife]

as for the bobbing of the head while taping, i've done that several times i've recorded and normally dont notice any sound difference at all from the times i do bob my head and the times i dont. and i use stealth cardiod mics(fuck binaural's!).

I don't mean bobbing head- I mean turning your head away from the soundsource.   And, Binaurals are not mics- its a technique.  And, to each his/her own.  I like omni's, and I wish I had a set.

So, since you are a minustee whore, does that mean I plustee you 

[snapple ryes]

as for the bobbing of the head while taping, i've done that several times i've recorded and normally dont notice any sound difference at all from the times i do bob my head and the times i dont. and i use stealth cardiod mics(fuck binaural's!).

I don't mean bobbing head- I mean turning your head away from the soundsource.   And, Binaurals are not mics- its a technique.  And, to each his/her own.  I like omni's, and I wish I had a set.

So, since you are a minustee whore, does that mean I plustee you 

well yeah. i never turn my head away from the source unless it's b/w songs.

and binaural's, binaral's, however u spell em. those crappy mics arent worth spelling correctly anyways.

[roskile]

First off you've got the sound going the wrong way - it should be mics>battery box>recorder!

Anyway I've done some digging on the sound pro site, and figured out those mics (AT831s) are the same as in my CMC2s.

I use typically 95 or 107 Hz bass roll-off for loud rock shows. 16Hz is for acoustic, and 160Hz should only be used for bands with a very loud bassist. Adjust to suit the band you are going to see.

Try standing dead centre, right behind the mosh pit. If you end up IN the mosh pit, move back a little..

Go line in, I'm pretty sure with the M1 (never used one) that you will overload the levels going mic-in.

Good luck!

HeHe, thanks for pointing out that I had it backwards  SP-SPSB-2M3>TFB-2 CARDIOID>Sony PCM-M1  Also, thanks for recommending the bass roll-off settings and suggesting where to stand.

learn to use your rig in the dark, now.  practice so that you know the feel of the buttons so you don't have to look(if it's that stealthy a situation)  once you have things squared away, engage the hold button, so you don't do anything silly by mistake.  now all you need to worry about is the gain.

sweet spot should be just behind the mosh pit.  don't get too close to the sbd, or they'll see you being the only person not moving and bust you.  going with friends?  enlist them to block for you.  don't let them talk shit about going upfront to check out the hottie, etc.  they'll all want a copy of the show, and they'll want it to be as good as you do, have them help it be that way.  if there are other stealthers there, you guys will spot each other right away, combine forces.

go to the bathroom before the show

good luck

jr

Thanks for your info as well JR. I'll start getting to know my DAT recorder a little better so I can memorize and have a feel for where all the buttons are.

Also let me know what you think of this. I work in retail and my district manager was in town today. She lives in Albuquerque, NM where the Skinny Puppy concert is going to be. I told her about it and it turns out she sometimes helps the sound guy that works at the venue (named Rich or Rick). She told me that all I have to do is get in and she can allow me to setup with the sound guy, saying that I can lay my deck right down there to record. Do you think I should take her up on the offer? I could use a different set of mics (SP-CMC-2) for this. Would this offer better sound to record from this area?

I second the notion of going to the bathroom early.   Here's some other advice:

Another thing- with those ear mounted mics- your tapes are going to be extremely sensitive to head movement; Stand as still as possible, and don't look to the sides- you'll definately hear it in the tapes, expecially if they are cardoids.  Its a little less dramatic if they are omnis, but definately still noticable.   But also, if you have omni caps, in your source information, be sure to note that they are a true binaural recording;  And be sure to check out the recording on headphones too when you get home- because ideally, with omnis placed by your ears and split by your head, the recording should recreate exactly what was heard (barring mic and preamp coloration, obviously).

Don't get too upset if the tape doesn't come out as good as you would have hoped- we've all muffed them b4.

And, have fun.  Hopefully you get to hear some stuff from "Too Dark Park" .   Finally, share the tape.  Don't sell it. 

+t for startin out.

Thanks to you as well pfife. I'll make sure to head into the bathroom as soon as I get in to get everything set. I do believe Skinny Puppy allows taping. I have a few cds (Back and Forth volumes) which contain early demos, remixes, unreleased/bsides, and live songs as well as multimedia content. On one of the cds I have (volumes 3+4), it states:

thanks to those who submitted live tapes and bootlegs for this series, as it is, we never even made it through the vault. brap on.

I know, they use the ugly word there. But reading this led me to believe that they do allow taping. I emailed Cevin Key almost a month ago asking him for permission to tape but received no response. Should I get caught with the gear, this will be one of my last resorts/excuses to why I have it. Gonna take the cd with me to show lol. But only if I can't make it in clean.

And while I'd like the recording to be perfect, I know it will not be. In a way, I don't even expect it to be that good seeing as this is very new to me. It is about having fun and coming away with a memory of a hopefully great night.

Also I think Skinny Puppy is currently playing Convulsion and Reclamation off of Too Dark Park..though I'm hoping they'll throw in T.F.W.O. or Spasmolytic. It's cool that they are playing Glass Houses too. I can't wait. 

I can't give them yet, but +T's for all of you who have replied.

[Ed.]

binaural is a taping technique using omnis.  its where the mics are on the side of your head by your ear.  i have a pair of little stealth omnis like that and i must say, i hardly ever made a bad tape with them.

one suggestion, get a bottle of water or two before the show too.  especially if the venue allows smoking and especially if you smoke (my throat gets really dry at shows from all the smoke) ...and standing in one spot for 1-3 hours can take a lot out of you surprisingly...you'll enjoy the water about 45 minutes into the opening band.  don't drink too much tho, or else you're going to be in pain by the end of the show from your bladder.

[firmdragon]

+T for taping deftones.  tape dredg, the opener too.  they're awesome.

[John R]

anytime you can get an 'in' with the house sound guy do it.  that way you may get power, you and your gear will be in a safe environment, and you'll be able to go to the bathroom as well.  send him a copy so he remembers you for next time.

jr

[heath]

don't drink too much tho, or else you're going to be in pain by the end of the show from your bladder.

yeah, but if you brought a few bottles of water in with you, and drank a few, you have a portable bathroom right there....

btw-  gatorade bottles are perfect to relieve yourself in....the large ones so that you don't have to worry about overflow and the opening at the top is pretty wide... 

[pfife]

TFWO!  Awesome!  THat would rule.

I would also agree that if you can do non-stealth (comfortably) - then take up the offer.  The only thing I would worry about is trying to get the stand past the security.  I noticed that here in detroit the show is at a place that has notoriously stringent security- they would never allow you to bring in a stand, if they were even remotely unsure that the band was pro-taping.  If you get turned away with the stand, be sure to go to someone else in line when you are trying to get through security (if there is security).

And, if you can secure different mics, I would too, but that's going to entail all kinds of differnet stuff that you might not be able to acquire before then (preamp w/ phantom power, cables, etc).  I think, as a new taper, you'll be pretty surprised by the quality of tape you pull using the SP stuff.  I was initially blown away- and so were my friends... but then the upgrade bug comes with a vengeance.

But, I should qualify my above statement by saying that I am becoming more and more stealth-loving as time progresses, for a couple reasons:  You can get into a sweet spot much easier, and I like recordings that are more nearfield than FOB (in general) in a large auditorium/theatre/arena/etc.  and 2) You don't have to worry about drunk ass punk bitches knocking your stand over.  I get really annoyed by that, to the point where I am ready to ditch it almost completely.

+  again for gettin down and dirty.  And + to heath for suggesting the gatorade bottle.  If you pissed in gatorade bottle at a show, in the middle of a crowd, that would be +10,000 punk points.

[heath]

TFWO!  Awesome!  THat would rule.

I would also agree that if you can do non-stealth (comfortably) - then take up the offer.  The only thing I would worry about is trying to get the stand past the security.  I noticed that here in detroit the show is at a place that has notoriously stringent security- they would never allow you to bring in a stand, if they were even remotely unsure that the band was pro-taping.  If you get turned away with the stand, be sure to go to someone else in line when you are trying to get through security (if there is security).

And, if you can secure different mics, I would too, but that's going to entail all kinds of differnet stuff that you might not be able to acquire before then (preamp w/ phantom power, cables, etc).  I think, as a new taper, you'll be pretty surprised by the quality of tape you pull using the SP stuff.  I was initially blown away- and so were my friends... but then the upgrade bug comes with a vengeance.

But, I should qualify my above statement by saying that I am becoming more and more stealth-loving as time progresses, for a couple reasons:  You can get into a sweet spot much easier, and I like recordings that are more nearfield than FOB (in general) in a large auditorium/theatre/arena/etc.  and 2) You don't have to worry about drunk ass punk bitches knocking your stand over.  I get really annoyed by that, to the point where I am ready to ditch it almost completely.

+  again for gettin down and dirty.  And + to heath for suggesting the gatorade bottle.  If you pissed in gatorade bottle at a show, in the middle of a crowd, that would be +10,000 punk points.

i witnessed a very good friend use the gatorade trick on the field for the Dead at RFK stadium.  People were shoulder to shoulder down there and he just grabbed the bottle and did his business...hysterical!

H

[Zaphod]

Also let me know what you think of this. I work in retail and my district manager was in town today. She lives in Albuquerque, NM where the Skinny Puppy concert is going to be. I told her about it and it turns out she sometimes helps the sound guy that works at the venue (named Rich or Rick). She told me that all I have to do is get in and she can allow me to setup with the sound guy, saying that I can lay my deck right down there to record. Do you think I should take her up on the offer? I could use a different set of mics (SP-CMC-2) for this. Would this offer better sound to record from this area?

Since I didn't see anyone address this too specifically I thought I'd chime in. If you don't have a mic stand it really won't do any good to open tape next to the board. Instead if you can get in good with the FOH guy see if you can get a soundboard patch, that would yeild better results than just setting your mics on the rail/shelf around it. To patch off the board you'll need different cables depending on the output check the archive for more specific info.

+T for taping deftones.  tape dredg, the opener too.  they're awesome.

Yes tape dredg, I like them a hell of a lot more than the deftones, but have yet to get any live dredg shows. 

[snapple ryes]

which deftones date/loc are you taping, btw?

[roskile]

binaural is a taping technique using omnis.  its where the mics are on the side of your head by your ear.  i have a pair of little stealth omnis like that and i must say, i hardly ever made a bad tape with them.

one suggestion, get a bottle of water or two before the show too.  especially if the venue allows smoking and especially if you smoke (my throat gets really dry at shows from all the smoke) ...and standing in one spot for 1-3 hours can take a lot out of you surprisingly...you'll enjoy the water about 45 minutes into the opening band.  don't drink too much tho, or else you're going to be in pain by the end of the show from your bladder.

I'm a short guy and I think I'm pretty much done growing unless I have one last growth spurt coming..

* roskile closes eyes and waits to see if anything happens (nope hehe)

I figured that having the mics by my ears would be the best way to get them the highest that I can without drawing attention to them. And as much as I think I'd get thirsty, I just wouldn't want to take that risk of having to really go to the restroom during the set. The standing there and thinking about it...ah, I wouldn't be able to last lol.

TFWO!  Awesome!  THat would rule.

I would also agree that if you can do non-stealth (comfortably) - then take up the offer.  The only thing I would worry about is trying to get the stand past the security.  I noticed that here in detroit the show is at a place that has notoriously stringent security- they would never allow you to bring in a stand, if they were even remotely unsure that the band was pro-taping.  If you get turned away with the stand, be sure to go to someone else in line when you are trying to get through security (if there is security).

But, I should qualify my above statement by saying that I am becoming more and more stealth-loving as time progresses, for a couple reasons:  You can get into a sweet spot much easier, and I like recordings that are more nearfield than FOB (in general) in a large auditorium/theatre/arena/etc.  and 2) You don't have to worry about drunk ass punk bitches knocking your stand over.  I get really annoyed by that, to the point where I am ready to ditch it almost completely.

+  again for gettin down and dirty.  And + to heath for suggesting the gatorade bottle.  If you pissed in gatorade bottle at a show, in the middle of a crowd, that would be +10,000 punk points.

Well I currently do not have a mic stand, but either way I was going to go stealth all the way. As you and others have mentioned however, if I can hang with the sound guy, it would be secure in that I wouldn't have to worry about being bumped by others. Only thing is this depends on if I can get the okay from him without my district manager not being there(she doesn't care for Skinny Puppy). So who knows if he'd be okay without her there. But if not that's okay as well, I'll just be careful being behind the mosh pit.

i witnessed a very good friend use the gatorade trick on the field for the Dead at RFK stadium.  People were shoulder to shoulder down there and he just grabbed the bottle and did his business...hysterical!

H

when ya gotta go ya gotta go 

Instead if you can get in good with the FOH guy see if you can get a soundboard patch, that would yeild better results than just setting your mics on the rail/shelf around it. To patch off the board you'll need different cables depending on the output check the archive for more specific info.

Patching into the soundboard is something I haven't looked into yet. I'll give this a read later, thanks.

tape dredg, the opener too.  they're awesome.

Yes tape dredg, I like them a hell of a lot more than the deftones

Up until now, I had never heard of them. I did some searching and they are highly rated everywhere I looked. Thanks for the head up on dredg, I think I will tape them.

which deftones date/loc are you taping, btw?

10/06/04,Club Xcape  ep, tx first time there


Once again, thanks for all the responses. These should be some memorable first moments. +T's to all who have helped.

Regards

[roskile]

A couple more quick questions:

I was practice recording with some of my own music playing off of my computer. I used the bass roll-off filter at 69Hz, 95Hz and 107Hz..the record volume knob was turned all the way up to 10 and my levels looked good but low, despite the volume on my pc being quite up there.

On playback through the unit, the volume seemed pretty low even though I increased the playback volume to max. I still have not gotten around to installing my new sound card so I was unable to transfer the playback to my computer. Does the dat deck normally play recordings low, or is this reflective of the actual recording?

Also, which is the recommended setting between 0 dB and 20 dB? According to SonicStudios.com, http://www.sonicstudios.com/d100page4.html :

VERY IMPORTANT TIP:
Consider the 20 dB ATT or (L) setting as the NORMAL microphone input setting for most all microphone signals with Sony brand recorders.  Only go to the boost mode setting of 0 dB or (L) when not having enough gain with a Level knob setting up full at #10 to reach a VU signal peak of  -12 dB below 0 dB VU.  Otherwise, you will clip distort or overload the microphone preamplifier if using the 'boosted gain setting' under any other conditions. 

This is consistently opposite to what is suggested in all the Sony user manuals that claim the 0 dB or (H) 'gain boosted' settings as the normal setting.  This has resulted in untold multitudes of their customers to make totally useless and distorted recordings even if using Sony brand microphones 'recommended' as ideal for these exact models

One last thing and I just noticed this for the first time while trying to charge the batteries..it would appear as though one battery is dead. Both are the Sony DAT Ni-MH Rechargeable batteries, NH-D100 1.2V 1300mAh. The charging lamp does not light up with one, while it does on the other battery. I have tried taking it out and placing it back in the charging tray, and I have switched them to the other side(hehe and I don't mean placing the - end where the + should be, just that I switched the top battery which was charging to the bottom where the other battery would not charge  )..all no go.

I was reading more at the SonicStudios website and they recommended some that can be purchased at Radio Shack. I'll stop by tomorrow while on break at work. Glad I found this out with some time left, though I'm kinda upset with myself that I waited this long to charge them.

But as my friend say... Whadda ya gonna do?...Forget about it. 

[firmdragon]

1.  the volume of your computer speakers is nowhere near the volume of a PA/stack in your local club unless you wear earplugs when listening to music on your comp.  from your comments the levels look pretty normal in your testing.  if you get levels that's a good thing.

2.  i usually leave the att on the DAT at 20dB as well.  it's usually loud enough. i don't exactly stand at the back of the venue either though.  i get very decent levels and am able to go over if i so wished.

3.  i used to use the batteries that came with the DAT, but after some thinking i got paranoid about rechargables and stopped using them.  i know pretty much exclusively use energizer photo lithiums.  they're expensive but you can put roughly 6 hours on 2 AAs.

[roskile]

Thanks for the reassurance regarding my volume levels.

If you don't mind me asking, why did you become paranoid with the rechargeable batteries?

[leegeddy]

http://www.taperssection.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=24870.0

i use the Lenmar 2450mAH AA in my D100/M1. excellent investment, imho.

marc

[roskile]

* roskile wants the Lenmar's

Those look very nice leegeddy.  It will have to be later though as I will need to pick up a new set locally tomorrow. Got the first show on Wednesday and I will be heading out to the venue directly after work. But on to the wish list with them. 

[firmdragon]

Thanks for the reassurance regarding my volume levels.

If you don't mind me asking, why did you become paranoid with the rechargeable batteries?

nothing really.  i just felt safer with batteries that i know will last me 6hrs.  though admittedly those rechargables are looking good now.   

[jbraveman]

Be careful with the sony rechargables unless they are new.  I bought a used M1 and found that the rechargables no longer held a charge.

The best way to find the sweet spot in a venue is to go to a show that you do not want to tape.  Walking around the floor will give you an idea about where the sound is the best.  Also you'll see where the security guards are etc.

I have found that the D100 remote is indespensible for stealth recording with the M1.  This allows you to check the levels without having to dig your deck out and turning on the light.  Also you can keep your hand still.  The remote can also be clipped to a wrist band so it looks like you're checking your watch!  You can then adjust the levels by simply putting your hand inside your jacket (bag etc).

Good luck