Author Topic: Help needed in choosing best preamp or battery + mics for NJB3 ~$500 (Read 6029 times)

Laymedown · « **on:** February 03, 2008, 01:05:21 PM »

Hi everyone,

Newbie here, I've read and searched the forums for answers but haven't found exactly what I'm looking for and I felt that some of you may be able to suggest the best set up here.

I've recently dug up my Nomad Jukebox 3 and plan on recording some rock bands playing some arena shows. I haven't recorded before and I was just wondering what the best set up would be..I'm looking to spend around $300-$500 and would prefer to spend towards the lower end to middle of that but if there is a big difference in how my recording may come out by paying slightly more then I'd definitely be interested in some suggestions. Alot of places seem to be suggesting the soundprofessionals mics and battery box such as http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-CMC-4U and http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/category.cgi?item=SP-SPSB-1&source=&kw= but I'd love to know what the users here would recommend. The less work recording the better and the shows will be stealthed.
If you could provide any links to the items you suggest that would be brilliant and if you could point me in the direction of the cables I would need for your suggestion it would be helpful as the first time I plan to use them is in just over a week so would be upset if I forgot to get a certain cable.

Honestly, thankyou in advance to anyone who suggests anything and I will be posting the recordings online if everything is sorted in time. Great place you have here.

nameloc01 · « **Reply #1 on:** February 03, 2008, 01:23:18 PM »

You need to spend some time listening to shows and decide what mics sound good to you, and then compare them to the taping situations youll be in. Look for recordings that may use your same recorder to reference. Because what may work best for me wont for you.

Laymedown · « **Reply #2 on:** February 03, 2008, 01:33:37 PM »

Thanks for the reply. The set up I liked the sound of was:
DSM-6S > PA-6LC3 > M1 > 7pin>optical > NJB3

I couldn't fathom though exactly what an M1 and the 7pin>optical was though, but all that together may be out of the price range. An alternative would be to buy an edirol-r09 and use the inbuilt recorder but I'm assuming that would sound less good?

professorhalfbaked · « **Reply #3 on:** February 03, 2008, 01:35:01 PM »

I asked a similar question on this board recently, and one response stuck in my head:

Quote from: boojum on January 26, 2008, 08:26:17 PM

Quote from: professorhalfbaked on January 26, 2008, 11:46:57 AM
I have considered DPA 406x, Sennheiser (MKE2, I think?), AT (853 or 943), and Church STC-11. The DPA's are really tempting, but a bit pricey for me, especially for a first pair. I am also concerned about omni versus cardioid. Seems like most of the people here use cardioids, but some of the mics (like DPA) seem to be available only in omni.

Are they the right price for a second pair? Spend all you can on mics, and then a little more. What can't be captured won't be recorded.

I sort of lucked out (a friend lent me his Church Audio STC-11's for a while), so I have some time to think about it a bit and save up some cash, but this sounds pretty sage to me. After all, if you upgrade a few months later your wallet takes two hits...

nameloc01 · « **Reply #4 on:** February 03, 2008, 01:45:14 PM »

It is really debatable if the dpas really sound that much better than higher end a.t. mics...the real difference is the size (and the price). Basically you will probably end up looking at some a.t. Mics or something from chris church. Any real serious upgrade would prob be to schoeps and then you are spending alot more money. But do realize..you are forgetting the most important 3 factors....location,location and most importantly ...location.

Laymedown · « **Reply #5 on:** February 03, 2008, 01:48:31 PM »

All the recordings would be Smashing Pumpkins in a large indoor arena in the middle of a crowd.

nameloc01 · « **Reply #6 on:** February 03, 2008, 02:00:54 PM »

I was getting at.. where you are in the venue is even more important than what mics youre running. The best mics available wont make a great recording if youre up in the nosebleeds. But back to the mics...just listen around and see what you like.

Laymedown · « **Reply #7 on:** February 03, 2008, 02:55:30 PM »

Ah I see what you mean now.
I'm planning to be on the floor standing somewhere towards the middle of the venue so not front row and not up in the heavens

nameloc01 · « **Reply #8 on:** February 03, 2008, 03:25:03 PM »

it seems like it usually works out where youre gonna spend just about 500.00 or well over a grand for mics. Theres not really a whole lot of good stealth mics in between. My u853s and ps2 with shipping was just under 500.00 now if i ever were to "upgrade", it would probably be to mk4s, which i believe are just under 2k. (give or take) and like i said the dpas performance really isnt worth the $ increase compared to what i have now..they are just easier to stealth. If i were you i'd focus on some a.t.s (stay away from the at 829s..)or maybe even something from chris church. Either way youll be under 500 and wont need to upgrade anytime soon, if at all.

sunjan · « **Reply #9 on:** February 03, 2008, 05:23:42 PM »

Quote from: nameloc01 on February 03, 2008, 03:25:03 PM

My u853s and ps2 with shipping was just under 500.00 now

Another vote for the AT853s. Great option with phantom (853RX). Can be run PS2>AD20 for stealth or UA5 if you ever go open taping...

/Jan

nameloc01 · « **Reply #10 on:** February 03, 2008, 06:10:49 PM »

Quote from: sunjan on February 03, 2008, 05:23:42 PM

Quote from: nameloc01 on February 03, 2008, 03:25:03 PM
My u853s and ps2 with shipping was just under 500.00 now

Another vote for the AT853s. Great option with phantom (853RX). Can be run PS2>AD20 for stealth or UA5 if you ever go open taping...

/Jan

fuckin' eh right. i waiting for someone else to suggest them first.

Laymedown · « **Reply #11 on:** February 03, 2008, 06:34:24 PM »

Do people recommend then that I phantom power the mics? My first concert I want to record at is about 2 weeks away so I want to make sure that I have everything I need before then. The sound professionals mics seem to say that I have to select some sort of Ultra High SPL module or will the battery box cover this?

Sorry for asking what may appear to be simple questions, just want to make sure I get the purchases correct, if not it's an expensive waste of money.

nameloc01 · « **Reply #12 on:** February 03, 2008, 07:02:58 PM »

Lol. Here we go again. The 853 were designed to use a 3 wire battery box..the a.t. power modules. Last time i checked each module was 200.00 x's 2 one for each mic. 1. you can get a phantom power/3 wire setup to power them..even though 48v directly would fry the mics the adaptors step it down to a usable voltage for the mics. And the results are great..this is what i use . Never had even close to clipping. 2. You can haue someone build you a 3 wire bb or do it yourself. 3. You can have the mics sensitiuity lowered with a 4.7 mod which will allows you to run them on a standard inexpensive b.b. However you could run into the situation where you need a preamp to boost the gain b/c the sensitivity has been lowered. so you need to decide exactly how you want to run them.

Will_S · « **Reply #13 on:** February 03, 2008, 09:43:13 PM »

Quote from: nameloc01 on February 03, 2008, 07:02:58 PM

Lol. Here we go again..... 3. You can have the mics sensitiuity lowered with a 4.7 mod which will allows you to run them on a standard inexpensive b.b. However you could run into the situation where you need a preamp to boost the gain b/c the sensitivity has been lowered.

Here we go again indeed. The 4.7K mod lowers the sensitivity RELATIVE TO TWO WIRE, which itself raises sensitivity relative to 3 wire or the adapters. So needing a preamp for quiet material is no more relevant to this case than it is vs. the phantom adapters or 3 wire box.

Edit: My suggestions...

The JB3 does not have a great preamp built in, or even a good one. So if you will be taping softer music, a preamp is more or less a must. Chruch Audio and Sound Professionals both offer models worth looking into. If you are only taping highly amplified rock type music, then just a battery box should be fine.

As to phantom...if you run the AT853s, there is absolutely no performance advantage to running phantom adapters vs. a three wire battery box, as the mics see the same power regardless. Few if any people would argue that 3 wire power sounds superior to the 4.7k mod either, but at least there is a difference in what the mics actually see. You can get a 3 wire box much cheaper than the adapters, don't have to worry about the unswitchable bass rolloff found in some adapters, and a 3 wire batery box is much less bulky than phantom power unit + adapters. But, if you want a recognizable brand name (other than Church Audio or Sound Professionals), you'd maybe want to go the adapter route. And if you're ever going to record softer material, you'd definitely want a preamp so you might as well go with the 4.7k modded mics as they will work with a stock 1/8" input preamp, no separate battery box needed.

nameloc01 · « **Reply #14 on:** February 03, 2008, 09:56:54 PM »

So...if you get the mod and run a 2wire bb..there will be no loss of gain? Or will there be? if youre using a 3wire theres really no reason for the mod..right? Like with the phantom/3wire setup? (my setup) as i undestood it the mod and 2wire was an alternatiue to a 3wire setup?

Will_S · « **Reply #15 on:** February 03, 2008, 10:02:54 PM »

Quote from: nameloc01 on February 03, 2008, 09:56:54 PM

So...if you get the mod and run a 2wire bb..there will be no loss of gain? Or will there be? if youre using a 3wire theres really no reason for the mod..right? Like with the phantom/3wire setup? (my setup) as i undestood it the mod and 2wire was an alternatiue to a 3wire setup?

2 wire mod with no 4.7k mod would be like the base model CMC-4 that Sound Professionals offers. It's more sensitive than any of the other options we're discussing, but it also has a tendency to distort with loud material.

So if you do 4.7k mod > 2 wire battery box vs. plain 2 wire like Sound Professionals offers, yes you lose some gain. But 4.7k mod vs 3 wire battery box, you do not. Or 4.7k mod vs adapters, you do not. (Now, some people run a Denecke PS-2 with the stock XLR outputs through line transformers to get RCA's to adapt to miniplug inputs, and the line transformers can add some gain. But if you compare 4.7K mod > 2 wire BB > recorder vs. phantom adapters > PS2 > XLR to mini cable with no transformers, the gain is pretty the same.

No reason for the 4.7k mod if you are already running 3 wire power, unless you want to use a preamp or run directly into a recorder with a 1/8" input (eg an R09, minidisc might not provide quite enough voltage on the plug in power).

nameloc01 · « **Reply #16 on:** February 03, 2008, 10:21:10 PM »

Right..thats what i was getting at...the gain loss with a mod>2wire. The mics wouldnt need the mod with a 3 wire..then its factory phantom 3 wire ..or 3 wire diy bb.

Will_S · « **Reply #17 on:** February 03, 2008, 10:25:11 PM »

Quote from: Laymedown on February 03, 2008, 01:33:37 PM

Thanks for the reply. The set up I liked the sound of was:
DSM-6S > PA-6LC3 > M1 > 7pin>optical > NJB3

I couldn't fathom though exactly what an M1 and the 7pin>optical was though, but all that together may be out of the price range

That means whoever recorded that show was patched out of an M1, a DAt recorder (now discontinued). In other words, there were two recorders daisy chained out of the same set of mics. The 7pin > optical is the proprietary cable you needed to get a digital output from a Sony portable DAT.

Quote from: Laymedown on February 03, 2008, 01:33:37 PM

. An alternative would be to buy an edirol-r09 and use the inbuilt recorder but I'm assuming that would sound less good?

If by "inbuilt recorder" you mean the built in microphones of the R09, yes they would definitely sound inferior to a decent set of external mics. But if you like the open, natural sound of omni mics like the DSM-6S (and like others have said, you want to listen to more sources and choose which mics sound best to you) you should probably check out the website of the company that makes them, www.sonicstudios.com. The "Sennheiser powered omnis" from Microphone Madness might be worth considering as a cheaper omni alternative.

Anyway, if you are really only going to record the smashing pumpkins, something like AT853s with low sensitivity mod > 2 wire battery box should work fine, as should AT853s > phantom adapters > PS2 (with a miniplug output mod, or an adapter cable to go from the XLR female outputs of a stock PS2 to the miniplug input of the JB3). But I'd also look into the Church Audio cardioids + preamp package in the Retail Space. These mics will not distort at high SPLs, the preamp adds a nice flavor to the sound even when the music is loud enough that you don't need to max it out on gain, and you'll have more flexibility for quieter material if you ever want to record it. You can also pick up some omni capsules for either the AT853s or the Church mics (although the Church omnis are significantly cheaper), and in the right conditions omnis perform substantially better for the dollar than cards (again, the recording you singled out above was made with omnis). But they are also the most sensitive to chatter from all directions, and can easily sound boomy if you are recording from the wrong spot (or if the source material is just boomy to begin with).

nameloc01 · « **Reply #18 on:** February 03, 2008, 10:32:14 PM »

Unless you already had the 2wire bb.. I would think the 3w bb would be the way to go (not talking about the ps2) right? I mean ..why mod the mics if you have to buy a bb anyway? Just get a 3w setup in one form or another.

Will_S · « **Reply #19 on:** February 03, 2008, 10:37:32 PM »

Quote from: nameloc01 on February 03, 2008, 10:32:14 PM

Unless you already had the 2wire bb.. I would think the 3w bb would be the way to go (not talking about the ps2) right? I mean ..why mod the mics if you have to buy a bb anyway? Just get a 3w setup in one form or another.

Well, the original poster seems to be in a hurry to get the full setup. The low sensitivity mod / 4.7k mod is a standard option from SP, no custom order needed, and doesn't take long to perform. A 2 wire battery box (or 1/8" input preamp) is an off-the-shelf item as well. Quick and easy. A 3 wire BB or preamp would need to be a custom order and might take longer.

And if you have a recorder with sufficient plug in power voltage and a decent built in preamp (R09, Marantz PMD620, even an iRiver in my experience) you can run the 4.7k modded mics directly into the recorder in a pinch.

nameloc01 · « **Reply #20 on:** February 03, 2008, 10:48:56 PM »

A ps2 is an off the shelf item too.

just seems really weird to not just get a 3w setup to begin with. Thats the way the mics were designed. Each to his own. though.

Will_S · « **Reply #21 on:** February 03, 2008, 11:15:21 PM »

Quote from: nameloc01 on February 03, 2008, 10:48:56 PM

A ps2 is an off the shelf item too. just seems really weird to not just get a 3w setup to begin with. Thats the way the mics were designed. Each to his own. though.

It's not stock if it's got a miniplug out though.

So the off the shelf options from SP are:

low senstivity mod ($25) plus SP-SPSB-1 2 wire battery box ($59) = $84 and minimal bulk

phantom adapters ($69 if you go with the cheaper NADY option) plus PS-2 with miniplug out (199) = $268 and substantially more bulk

I know which one I'd choose, but as you say, to each his own.

nameloc01 · « **Reply #22 on:** February 04, 2008, 12:08:38 AM »

You'd still have the modded ps2 in a few days....i did. Maybe they do now...but does sp stock a 3w bb? I would be suprised if they didnt. Although maybe they just make them as needed. ps. A true jedi worries not about bulk.

nameloc01 · « **Reply #23 on:** February 04, 2008, 12:30:25 AM »

Also..after having my "go 'rounds" with sp's little plastic bbs' i can tell you i will never use one again.ever..nor any other currently available plastic one. They (sps) have caused the loss of some good recordings for me. The denecke...flawless. Out.

sunjan · « **Reply #24 on:** February 04, 2008, 07:06:53 AM »

Quote from: nameloc01 on February 03, 2008, 10:48:56 PM

A ps2 is an off the shelf item too. just seems really weird to not just get a 3w setup to begin with. Thats the way the mics were designed. Each to his own. though.

Yeah, my thoughts exactly. The advantages of 3-wire has been up so many times here. I collected the URLs to the FAQ and the previous discussions we had:
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,89172.msg1190823.html#msg1190823
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,89288.0.html

If you're concered about bulk, you'll be surprised to find out that the Church 3-wire pre is just as small as the SP 2-wire bbox!
SP-SPSB-1: 2 x 3.9 x 1 inch
Church ST-9100: 2.5 x 3.5 x 1 inch
(or get the CA-UGLY, way smaller than anything SP offers...)

OK, the Church gear is usually made to order, but if you talk to Chris he could probably put you on fast-track for a premium. Or pick up a 9100 in the YS.

/Jan

nameloc01 · « **Reply #25 on:** February 04, 2008, 09:50:14 AM »

If i didnt have the ps2 and was going to get a 3w...i'd get one of chris' not a sp model. I have several sps...one shit out..the other one i dont trust.