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Author Topic: ADC & Bit Bucket by itself - no mics/pre?  (Read 6222 times)

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Offline tailschao

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ADC & Bit Bucket by itself - no mics/pre?
« on: April 12, 2011, 03:00:45 PM »
Warning: This thread features worthless late-night musings.

OK, so, some background. I tape with Church Mics, a Church Pre and a Zoom H2. The mic-input of the H2 sucks ass, yes... but I've never had any desire to use it. I've never used the internal mics either. All I use it for is as an ADC and SDHC card storage to tack on the end of my external mics & pre. The Levels control on the H2 is post ADC and thus worthless, but I don't care that I have no levels control - I have a preamp for that. All I want it for is to record the line signal my pre is giving it. It annoys me how there appears to be no commercially available product whose function is just as a pure, small, cheap ADC & bit bucket - nothing more. I see people on this forum spending £££/$$$ on R-09's and M10's and then using them for nothing more than as an ADC & Bit Bucket. And it just seems like a waste to me.

Take the Zoom H2 for example. $130 at B&H. What do you get. 4 microphones, 4 channels of pre-amplification, an ADC capable of 4 channels of simultaneous 24/48 operation and the ability to store all that to a memory card. Now, based on nothing more than conjecture and a little logic - if you removed the mics and pre-amp from the proverbial equation, you'd be left with 4 channels of synchronised 24/48 ADC & bit bucket. Of that $130, how much money could be saved by not having the mics or pre? How much space/size of the device could be saved? Or maybe you could double the ADC and end up with 8 channels of synchronised 24/48 ADC in the palm of you hand for under $150? I'm talking in abstract concepts here - if Zoom can pack 4 mics, 4 pre, 4 ADC into that form factor at that price, why can't they pack just 8 ADC (of the same quality as the H2) into the same size? They can, right? In theory? They just choose to not make such a product? And neither does any other manufacturer, it seems.

Do you get what I'm saying? Does it not strike anyone else as odd that there appears to be no market and/or products for this? Just an ADC in a little box? I recently bought a Zoom H1 for use in the rare situations when I have a secondary line-level signal. That comes with 2 mics, 2 pre and 2 ADC. If I had the choice of paying half the price and getting just the ADC in a box half the size I would jump at the chance.

I don't really know what the point of posting this is... just venting. But am I the only one who thinks this? Am I the only one who would rather his recorder was half the price and half the size, in exchange for only ever using a line-in?

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Re: ADC & Bit Bucket by itself - no mics/pre?
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2011, 03:17:56 PM »
Warning: This thread features worthless late-night musings.

OK, so, some background. I tape with Church Mics, a Church Pre and a Zoom H2. The mic-input of the H2 sucks ass, yes... but I've never had any desire to use it. I've never used the internal mics either. All I use it for is as an ADC and SDHC card storage to tack on the end of my external mics & pre. The Levels control on the H2 is post ADC and thus worthless, but I don't care that I have no levels control - I have a preamp for that. All I want it for is to record the line signal my pre is giving it. It annoys me how there appears to be no commercially available product whose function is just as a pure, small, cheap ADC & bit bucket - nothing more. I see people on this forum spending £££/$$$ on R-09's and M10's and then using them for nothing more than as an ADC & Bit Bucket. And it just seems like a waste to me.

Take the Zoom H2 for example. $130 at B&H. What do you get. 4 microphones, 4 channels of pre-amplification, an ADC capable of 4 channels of simultaneous 24/48 operation and the ability to store all that to a memory card. Now, based on nothing more than conjecture and a little logic - if you removed the mics and pre-amp from the proverbial equation, you'd be left with 4 channels of synchronised 24/48 ADC & bit bucket. Of that $130, how much money could be saved by not having the mics or pre? How much space/size of the device could be saved? Or maybe you could double the ADC and end up with 8 channels of synchronised 24/48 ADC in the palm of you hand for under $150? I'm talking in abstract concepts here - if Zoom can pack 4 mics, 4 pre, 4 ADC into that form factor at that price, why can't they pack just 8 ADC (of the same quality as the H2) into the same size? They can, right? In theory? They just choose to not make such a product? And neither does any other manufacturer, it seems.

Do you get what I'm saying? Does it not strike anyone else as odd that there appears to be no market and/or products for this? Just an ADC in a little box? I recently bought a Zoom H1 for use in the rare situations when I have a secondary line-level signal. That comes with 2 mics, 2 pre and 2 ADC. If I had the choice of paying half the price and getting just the ADC in a box half the size I would jump at the chance.

I don't really know what the point of posting this is... just venting. But am I the only one who thinks this? Am I the only one who would rather his recorder was half the price and half the size, in exchange for only ever using a line-in?

Not really odd at all...there is not a big enough market...and enough other "close enough" products...

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Re: ADC & Bit Bucket by itself - no mics/pre?
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2011, 03:25:24 PM »
But am I the only one who thinks this? Am I the only one who would rather his recorder was half the price and half the size, in exchange for only ever using a line-in?

Not really odd at all...there is not a big enough market...and enough other "close enough" products...

Correct, there just isn't any market large enough for that. Take the Sony M-10. If you knocked off the internal mics, and the mic pre-amps with their 3v powering, you might save a 1/4 of the length and shave a couple MM of depth, but suddenly eliminate a buyer segment which is beneficial to help offset R&D costs or manufacturing costs (or just plain old profit). What we do is such a small segment overall, that I'm surprised that the MT2 had a coax in on it.
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Offline earmonger

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Re: ADC & Bit Bucket by itself - no mics/pre?
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2011, 03:29:46 PM »
"Am I the only one who would rather his recorder was half the price and half the size, in exchange for only ever using a line-in?"

Probably. Or one of the few.

Tapers are a tiny part of the market. Everybody else wants more things built-in--or, ideally, to have their cell phone do everything (in its 10 remaining minutes of battery life), and who cares if the photos are grainy or the sound is mono?  The trend is to have more capabilities performed mediocrely instead of a specialized box.

Interesting rant, though.

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Re: ADC & Bit Bucket by itself - no mics/pre?
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2011, 05:35:47 PM »
Already answered by everyone above, but since I typed this, damned if I'm not going to hit 'post' anyway..

You're not alone.. certainly not on this site.  Unfortunately there just aren’t enough of us for a manufacture to build something specifically for our needs.

I’d like the same features you describe and I’m sure there are many others around here that would as well. Yet the number of people who want a small recorder like this are most likely not significant enough for large manufacturers to target with a specific product.  As I see it, the target market for small handheld recorders are musicians, bloggers & reporters.  They primarily want recorders that are small, inexpensive all-in-one machines that work without any required outboard gear and that means including mics and preamps.  The internal mics make the recorder slightly larger, the preamps take little board space and probably add no significant bulk.  The components used for both of them are inexpensive off-the-shelf stuff so their inclusion is unlikely to add a significantly to the overall price of the recorder.  Partially because of that, and partially because the overall cost of these recorders is amazingly low because of their mass production, elimination of the mics and preamps would not reduce their selling price by 50%. Perhaps ironically, introduction of a handheld recorder that eliminates those things would probably come with an increased price, since any such recorder would target a smaller niche market.

The handheld stereo recorder that comes closest on paper to what we want is the M-Audio Multitrack (no internal mics, digital in/out as well as mic preamps) but its problems and compromises far outweigh any real-world advantage for most here.

Another significant market is sound for ENG/video/film. Recorders targeting those applications need professional features like a tougher build quality, balanced inputs, multiple channels, etc.  These machines are in some ways closer to what you want in that they are multi-channel and have no mics, but they are larger (certainly not handheld), are considerably more expensive because of the better build quality, pro features, and the overall smaller number of machines manufactured in comparison to handhelds, plus most include mic preamps on at least two of the channels.  These have also become less expensive and smaller, but they will probably never get down to handheld size simply because of the size required to handle all the required input and output connections (multiple balanced XLRs, TRS jacks, digital connections, sync, clock, etc).

In light of all that, I was somewhat surprised and pleased to find 4 channel capability in the inexpensive, hand-held Tascam DR2d, which may have been developed at least partially to compete with the Zoom's 4 channel capability.  It still includes the 'market required' mics and preamps, but gets closer to the simple multi-channel  ADC > flash-storage idea.  It’s not perfect, but it’s the smallest, least expensive option I've found for 4 x ADC > SDHC.  In a perfect world I’d have an inexpensive pocket recorder with 6 or 8 channels, input on a single connector with a break-out cable, good preamps and mic powering (if I’m dreaming, then why not go all the way and eliminate the need for an  outboard preamp altogether?)

Since the world isn’t perfect I can live with the DR2d’s compromises for now, and recently picked up a DR-680 for when I need 6 or 8 channels.  The 680 is the smallest, least expensive recorder that I’d place near the bottom of the typically much more costly ENG/video/film recorder category.  Unlike the handheld DR2d it has no mics, but does have balanced connections, 6 decent preamps and digital in/out.

I don’t mean to shill for Tascam, but at the moment they seem to be the ones to beat for low-cost multichannel recorders.

Even if internal mics and low quality preamps with sub-par mic powering are effectively like unnecessary vestigial organs- toenails or an appendix our uses, these things are part of the evolutionary baggage of a device molded by the natural selection pressures of its target market.

Fortunately we can dress up these brown horses like pink unicorns.
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Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: ADC & Bit Bucket by itself - no mics/pre?
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2011, 11:35:12 PM »
Well, I think the3 M10 is a KILLER PRICE for what it does. All It does for me is ADC/Bit Bucket and I am really happy w what it can do :)
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Re: ADC & Bit Bucket by itself - no mics/pre?
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2011, 01:17:11 AM »
I sympathize with the oP but I agree with everybody in that the likelihood that a manufacture making a recorder specific for this unlikely.
I like the fact that the microtrack has spdif inputs but that's overlooked imo by its general negative reviews by everyone here. The Sony D50 is better but its not spdif, so that leaves us with the marantz pmd661; of course there are 4 and 8 channels with spdif input but that's more money and certainly not something you can easily put in the pocket.

In all fairness, (my opinion) the manufactures do a pretty good job making these recorders whether its sony's m10 or d50, edirol r09hr, tascam DR2d.

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Offline hi and lo

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Re: ADC & Bit Bucket by itself - no mics/pre?
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2011, 01:10:39 PM »
If the M10 had SPDIF in, life would be perfect.

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Re: ADC & Bit Bucket by itself - no mics/pre?
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2011, 01:55:06 AM »
If the M10 had SPDIF in, life would be perfect.

yup...when will the wait be over?
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Re: ADC & Bit Bucket by itself - no mics/pre?
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2011, 10:41:39 PM »
If the M10 had SPDIF in, life would be perfect.

yup...when will the wait be over?

I dont see it happening anytime soon
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Offline Todd R

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Re: ADC & Bit Bucket by itself - no mics/pre?
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2011, 12:01:52 PM »

In light of all that, I was somewhat surprised and pleased to find 4 channel capability in the inexpensive, hand-held Tascam DR2d, which may have been developed at least partially to compete with the Zoom's 4 channel capability.  It still includes the 'market required' mics and preamps, but gets closer to the simple multi-channel  ADC > flash-storage idea.  It’s not perfect, but it’s the smallest, least expensive option I've found for 4 x ADC > SDHC. 

Could you describe this a bit more?  I took a quick glance at the Tascam site, and it looks like you can only mix the internal mics with the line input (or have 4ch using those inputs).  Can you record 4ch using the mic input and line input, or does the 4ch capability need to include the internal mics?

On the M10, I don't see Sony adding spdif into the M10, since they already have spdif on the D50, so they've got that covered in their product line.  (To be specific, the optical digital input on the D50 is spdif -- the spdif standard is specified for optical digital input and electrical/coax digital input.  I realize that what folks prefer is a coax digital input, but the optical digital input on the D50 is technically a spdif digital input.)
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Preamp:  none <sniff>
Recorders:  Sound Devices MixPre-6, Sony PCM-M10, Zoom H4nPro

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Re: ADC & Bit Bucket by itself - no mics/pre?
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2011, 01:21:41 PM »

In light of all that, I was somewhat surprised and pleased to find 4 channel capability in the inexpensive, hand-held Tascam DR2d, which may have been developed at least partially to compete with the Zoom's 4 channel capability.  It still includes the 'market required' mics and preamps, but gets closer to the simple multi-channel  ADC > flash-storage idea.  It’s not perfect, but it’s the smallest, least expensive option I've found for 4 x ADC > SDHC. 

Could you describe this a bit more?  I took a quick glance at the Tascam site, and it looks like you can only mix the internal mics with the line input (or have 4ch using those inputs).  Can you record 4ch using the mic input and line input, or does the 4ch capability need to include the internal mics?

Yes.  That's how I use it.
Details and operation of this feature are covered on pages 43-45 of the manual, which is available as a PDF on the DR2d download page at the Tascam site. Here's the main jist of it-

DUAL RECORDING MODES: the options are ‘OFF’ (default), ‘DUAL’, ‘MIX’ and ‘LINE’.

‘OFF’: No dual recording is enabled (only one file is recorded).
‘DUAL’: Dual recording is enabled using microphones (Two files are recorded).
‘MIX’: the microphone and line inputs are mixed when recorded (Only one file is recorded).
‘LINE’: Microphones and LINE IN jack inputs are recorded simultaneously in separate files (two files are recorded).


You can switch metering between the two inputs at any time unless the hold switch is engaged by pressing the ‘dual’ button on the recorder.  Which input pair is being metered is indicated by icons on the display.

In Dual (Line) mode the recorder writes two stereo files to the SD card, which look like this if you set the file naming format to DATE instead of NAME like I prefer:
110520_1316.wav             <mic input file
110520_1316_LINE.wav    <line input file

As I’ve mentioned elsewhere here at TS this works well for me (especially the ability to start and stop recording via the remote even with the hold switch engaged), but ideally I’d like two improvements:
1) A setting to reduce input sensitivity of the mic-input jack to that of the line-input, making the two identical.
2) The ability to link gain adjustment on both inputs so they can be adjusted simultaneously while recording (like the channel ganging feature added to the DR680 with the latest firmware update last fall).


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Offline Todd R

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Re: ADC & Bit Bucket by itself - no mics/pre?
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2011, 03:24:25 PM »
Thanks Gut. After posing the question, I decided to be less lazy and downloaded and read the manual and searched ts.com (and read the 18-page thread on the DR-2d).

Looks like an interesting option.  I find myself almost never doing 4ch recordings anymore, after years of trying to perfect how to do it.  After many, many different iterations of equipment, I ended up with the 680 (after using the R44 for a bit).  I realized soon after getting it, that the bug to do 4ch+ recording for me was mainly over.  I'm pretty happy now just sticking to 2ch recording.

Still, the option of doing 4ch with a pretty cheap and small(!) recorder like the DR2d is a bit appealing, at least to keep the option open a bit.

I still think I'd be opting to use attenuator cables, esp on the mic input, but that isn't too big a deal.  The very highly variable reports on battery life are troubling though.  4-6 hours isn't bad, but 2 to 19 minutes is another matter.

Sorry for the threadjack!
Mics: Microtech Gefell m20/m21 (nbob/pfa actives), Line Audio CM3, Church CA-11 cards
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Re: ADC & Bit Bucket by itself - no mics/pre?
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2011, 04:32:14 PM »
To continue the thread jack one more post..

Yes, attenuators would be a good idea for using mic input on the DR2d with an external preamp.  Here's the key specs-
Maximum line input level: +6dBV
Maximum mic input level (Low gain setting): -16dBV

I'm considering building or having built a custom 4 channel preamp specific to my useage needs that incorporates that.

Battery life has improved after a firmware update.  I think it is now probably reasonable enough to last a full show (est 4-5 hrs) without a battery change but I have not tested it since the update.   I've been meaning to test that but haven't bothered since I started using an external battery pack about the size of the recorder which runs the thing easily for an entire 4 day festival and I only use the internal batteries for safety backup power.  Overall, it's a nice inexpensive recorder for under $200 - pretty amazing it can do 4 channels for that price.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

 

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