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Gear / Technical Help => Microphones & Setup => Topic started by: Tim on June 18, 2003, 01:04:32 AM
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I ran omni's about 20" apart facing out 180* from each other tonight. The show was Bela Fleck and the Flecktones at the Denver Botanical Gardens. It's a nice little venue with a sloping hill which surrounds the stage in a rectangle. It's completely open air so I decided that tonight would be a good night to try the omni's for the first time. Wow! These are my favorite tapes that I have made with the u89s (so far). The bass is tight and punchy without being overly exagerrated like I felt it had been in the past. The sense of space is very nice. Unfortunately because of the venue setup the show was mono so there isn't a whole lot of imaging. Nonetheless I think the tape came out pretty nice!
I missed the first 7-10 minutes because it was raining but Darrin Sacks got it all, once I fill in the gap on my tape I'll spread it around if some of you would like to hear it.
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I ran omni's about 20" apart facing out 180* from each other tonight.
Next time, try spreading them even further apart. 1 metre is a great place for omni's, If you go further 4 feet or more, you'll start losing some of the center image. I really enjoy spaced omni recordings. However, it really does require some attention to detail in the spacing. Since they are omni microphones, putting them 180 deg out or 110 deg out, doesn't really affect the sound that much (there are some very slight differences, but generally not enough to worry about). But the key to experiment with them and of course have fun.
Wayne
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Hey Tim (And All),
It would really be fun if several of us started playing more with omnis. I have tapes as far back as 1991 that we did with AKG 462's, and a few years later we started playing with Gefell m296s and B&K (yes, B&K--you know, the good old days: )) 4006's.
While I'll have to look at how good my notes are from back then, I do remember noticing a surprising difference in sound quality when aiming them straight ahead versus "aiming" them at the P.A. Yes, with omnis, I did find that I liked them best pointed directly at the P.A. I apartently forgot this last week at the Mishawaka--it had been a couple years since I used them.
I have never used this "critically spaced omnis" approach because I'm still a bit perplexed by the concept. Omnis are only omni-directional up to about 5k. Above that they take on a directional quality. This would be one fun aspect to address when evaluating the best way to run omnis in our application.
Another consideration would be the spacing issue. Wayne is right on with his point that they need to be far enough apart to have separation but close enough to maintain a center image. Even at 4ft. apart, the recordings I made last week of Yonder Mountain String Band still suffer the "whole in the middle" (no center) syndrome.
Here's to some fun.
Happy Recording,
Marc
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I'll be running the 270s at GOTV in a few weeks. I will be experimenting galore with these for spacing, height, and directionality. Hey, that's the reason I bought omnis in the first place: I already nailed hypercardioid technique (only caps I had for a couple of years) and needed something new to work with.
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I like the sound of omni's spaced 4-8 feet and I understand about omni's being directional at higher frequencies but I was trying to utilize the Healy Method...
http://oade.com/Tapers_Section/streicher-healy.html
http://www.oade.com/cgi-bin/miva?Forum/archive/viewthread.mv+thread=8145&message=8145
http://www.oade.com/cgi-bin/miva?Forum/showmsg.mv+message=8368
http://www.oade.com/cgi-bin/miva?showmsg.mv+message=2883
edit: I wanted to try it because it doesn't make any sense to me either! Marc I'll bring you a copy...
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I have done *alot* of omni recordings in lots of different configs. I have said it here before, and over at Oade.....
Omnis should be pointed towards the sound source. They are sensitive to direction, they just don't attenuate anything off axis. SO your better results will be with the caps pointed forward or slightly toed-out towards the sound source / pa.
MF
Reading back on this I come off all harsh and "know it all-esque". Sorry!
Didn't mean to sound that way.
+T'd ya for your effort Tim!!
MF
+T to you Mike... always a wealth of knowledge!
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oh yeah one more thing. I went with this method because the PA was mono and was eminating from a single cluster of 3 mid/hi cabs with a single 18" sub. this was directly in front of me, about 60' away. Also I was on the back of the stage so I was getting no sound from the stage amps. Because of this focus of the soundsource I thought spacing 4' or so would sound unnatural.
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one of the most interesting recordings i own is Panic 8-19-01 from Larkspur, Colorado. 482 > m248 > ad2k+. Bill mixon taped it. FOB, spaced the omnis about 20 feet i believe. this is the closest to a soundboard i have ever heard for an aud tape. you can barely hear the crowd and the soundstaging and presence is just unbelievable. drop me a PM if anyone wants it. it's on cd only though.
-damon
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I'll be running the 270s at GOTV in a few weeks. I will be experimenting galore with these for spacing, height, and directionality. Hey, that's the reason I bought omnis in the first place: I already nailed hypercardioid technique (only caps I had for a couple of years) and needed something new to work with.
See you in the section at the Vibes!!!!
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See you in the section at the Vibes!!!!
We all need to say hi... I'm flying in from TX for this show.
See Ya There.
Wayne
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See you in the section at the Vibes!!!!
We all need to say hi... I'm flying in from TX for this show.
See Ya There.
Wayne
sweet, we should all wear our t-shirts and be real dorks ;D
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one of the most interesting recordings i own is Panic 8-19-01 from Larkspur, Colorado. 482 > m248 > ad2k+. Bill mixon taped it. FOB, spaced the omnis about 20 feet i believe. this is the closest to a soundboard i have ever heard for an aud tape. you can barely hear the crowd and the soundstaging and presence is just unbelievable. drop me a PM if anyone wants it. it's on cd only though.
-damon
correction, this was section not FOB.
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correction, this was section not FOB.
In my experience, i've noticed (provided a good crowd, good rig and outdoors) omnis FOB sound just like your there where omnis in the section sound more like a soundboard. VERY general conclusion!
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is that on account of getting the omnis further up in the air in the section than you can FOB?
-damon
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well i would say it has more to do with the lows degrading the more distance they have to travel.
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i don't follow...why would the proximity effect make something further away sound more like a soundboard? maybe we're talking about different things, when i said sounds like a soundboard, i meant that there wasn't much crowd and the various instruments are more detailed and defined than a normal audience recording and it doesn't have as much of the "feel" that an aud tape normally does (maybe this is the low-end degrading?).
-damon
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kind of backed myself into a corner here.. I said that omnis in the section would sound more like a soundboard b/c in a sbd tape you wouldn't expect to be getting bombarred with bass like you would FOB. No matter what omnis are going to be the most natural sounding mics you can use imo. They don't produce that feel of an aud tape because they are omnidirectional, it can be very hard to tell how far away from the soundsource omnis are, where with cards/hypers you can usually sense it.
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I think omnis are somewhat directional, as mike french mentioned earlier
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why don't you try face the u89s to the back one set and to the front one set. bet that would answer the question
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kind of backed myself into a corner here.. I said that omnis in the section would sound more like a soundboard b/c in a sbd tape you wouldn't expect to be getting bombarred with bass like you would FOB. No matter what omnis are going to be the most natural sounding mics you can use imo. They don't produce that feel of an aud tape because they are omnidirectional, it can be very hard to tell how far away from the soundsource omnis are, where with cards/hypers you can usually sense it.
ok, that's what i thought you meant, makes sense. i'm eally curious about omnis. buti don't think there are very many instances that i typically tape in where omnis would be useful since i find myself taping in clubs mostly. actually, it's too bad sideshowbob didn't have his mk5's last night, we could have done it on the lawn for the dead. it sure would be nice to have the switchable LD's for this kind of experimental fun. ;)
-damon
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you first
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sure! isn't jerry joseph coming to george st. sometime soon :sleepy:
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well, if they weren't directional at all, their polar response curve would be totally circular, not at all irregular. the polar response curve for the 4006 shows attenuation that is far less directional than the others, but it definitely has some directional characteristics. look at the difference between 180 degrees and 0 degrees. pretty marked attenuation especially at higher frequencies.
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Hi All,
I love using omnis but find that they only really work well in our application in a flat, open/outdoor space.
Since they are omnidirectional (below about 5kHz), they often deliver a very smooth, natural sound while giving the feeling of being submerged in the music. The high-end directionality does lend value to the notion of actually pointing them at a high-frequency source (at least at the P.A. itself) as opposed to straight forward or totally off-axis. Of course, Tim's results may contradict this. When are you bringing those Botanic Gardens samples. Anxious ears await. : )
As far as low-end rolling off with distance, it is, like all sound going to decay at roughly 6dB per doubling of distance. High-end, however, is much more subject to absorption in air. Further, omnis are not subject to proximity effect (also related to inverse square law--doubling of level per halving of distance). Consequently, the omnis will continue to pick up deep bass from a greater distance but the high-end will be attenuated. As a result, it is very easy to accidently get VERY bass heavy recordings from omnis at a distance.
All said, my Grateful Dead, St. Louis, Riverport 7/6/95 tape--B&K 4006 omnis on the lawn--is one of my favorite recordings that I've ever made. I attribute this in big part to the delays hung from the back of the pavillion that accented the otherwise missing high-end.
On the other hand, my 15th row Neil Young & Crazy Horse '91 McNichols Arena tape (AKG 462's) is among the worst I've ever made.
Omnis are tricky but when they work, they are sweet!!!
Happy Recording Everybody,
Marc
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Ahh, 7/6/95, my only GD show :( The perils of being born too late! A nice tape though Marc!
Nick
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this summer John Crouch and I will be running omni comparisons with the mk5's at the Gorge and Utah. i will be running my tubes and he will be running the 6's. should be a lot of fun!!!!
i will let you guys know the results...
Dave
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I bought some omni caps last Spring but have not yet used them from the section or FOB outdoors. So i'm wondering if you guys bring tape measures and measure verticle and horizontal distances when running these caps? A tape measure sounds like a must-have tool. I'll make sure my Plumber's Butt in is full glory when using it ;D
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I want to do omni's spaced about 30" for The Dead at Red Rocks this summer. I was planning on pointing them to the far sides of the PA. I've built a spacer bar with "wings" so I can adjust the spacing. It would be nice to have someone else try another technique from the same spot for comparison.