Topic: Upgrade from AT853? Stealth only

[su6oxone]

Its all about what sounds good to your ears. Period. That goes for everything,..mics,pres,decks..ect. I like Schoeps,I don't love them..and I'm not sure they'd "blow them away"...any legit improvement is *very* marginal and hardly worth the extra....what..2k..? Seriously..I'd put the extra money towards more tix. But to answer the question...I wouldn't be looking for "an upgrade" I'd be looking for "a change-up", meaning something that sounds just as good...but a little "different"
Make sense?

Yeah I probably shouldn't have said that the Schoeps and DPAs would blow away any other mics, it's annoying when people do that.  In any case, the best tape I have heard yet from the NIN/JA tour is the Street Sweeper Social Club that someone taped in Michigan with AT853s.

http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=252404

[scoper]

But why not just compare the 'average' mics with the higher-end mics in the same location, because in that case the Schoeps are going to blow the AT853 and the other comparable mics away. 

I actually did EXACTLY that - I recently taped a show with two rigs: An arena show, with my seats rear-stage, between the stacks. Ideal location.

1. AT853 > attenuator > Microtrak2496 (mic in) 24bit/44.1
2. Schoeps MK4 > CMC5 > Sound Devices 744T (24 bit / 88.2KHz)

The mics were mounted right next to each other in a hat used for stealthing.

I can tell you with absolute certainty that while the Schoeps do sound better, they don't sound 10+ times better, which their cost would suggest. So I'm not necessarily looking for a major upgrade, and I'm certainly not looking to spend Schoeps or Neumann money. I was hoping for something in the $500 - $600 range that would add some depth and finer detail that the AT's can't quite muster. The law of diminishing returns, as someone quoted.

So okay, I'll accept that I don't have a great alternative and enjoy the tapes I get with this wonderful gear, and remind myself that "field" recordings this good were'nt even possible very many years ago.

[rjp]

So okay, I'll accept that I don't have a great alternative and enjoy the tapes I get with this wonderful gear, and remind myself that "field" recordings this good were'nt even possible very many years ago.

Indeed, it amazes me how today's $200-$600 gizmos can pull stunning recordings and fit in a shirt pocket. Twenty years ago, a recorder the size of an R-09HR or LS-10 used microcassettes and was barely suitable for speech, let alone music. Now, that sort of size will give you a recorder that can do justice to classical. Of course, a lot still depends on how you deploy it, but you don't need to spend massive amounts to get very pleasing results.

[MJ]

audix 1290!

I second that!!!  After I tried AT943s, OKM-ROCK , AT853s, Church Audio Mics + Pre, DPA4061, finally I found what I wanted; Audix M1280 + Fostex FR-2LE-Oade HD Mod.  At least for a while I guess that I can stop looking for a better gear

[sunjan]

I have used the AT853's(4.7k mod), the MM-HLSC's(4.7k mod) , DPA4061's, MK4's>nbox, 4021's and i was getting such good results from the HLSC's i have basically thinned my gear back down to them and some church cards for backup and i will have to also strongly agree Location is by far the most important factor in a good pull, hell i even got a very good pull out of those shitty giant squid omnis once but only because i was in the absolute sweet spot, which brings up another point, the 4061' are omnis and i found I get by far more good and consistant recordings from cards in more situations, the dpa's were hit and miss depending on location and venue.

Those HLSC are Sennheiser MKE40, right?  I think those are an excellent option, as long as you don't rely on the bass. 

Richard, Darktrain: how do the MM-HLSC's stand up against CA-14? You're saying that they perform better under certain conditions? I see them retailing for $250, are they worth the extra cash compared to Church gear?

And is Audix really regarded as a significant improvement over AT853 or CA-14? The downside here is phantom only, meaning bulkier powering/less stealthable.

[MJ]

I have used the AT853's(4.7k mod), the MM-HLSC's(4.7k mod) , DPA4061's, MK4's>nbox, 4021's and i was getting such good results from the HLSC's i have basically thinned my gear back down to them and some church cards for backup and i will have to also strongly agree Location is by far the most important factor in a good pull, hell i even got a very good pull out of those shitty giant squid omnis once but only because i was in the absolute sweet spot, which brings up another point, the 4061' are omnis and i found I get by far more good and consistant recordings from cards in more situations, the dpa's were hit and miss depending on location and venue.

Those HLSC are Sennheiser MKE40, right?  I think those are an excellent option, as long as you don't rely on the bass. 

And is Audix really regarded as a significant improvement over AT853 or CA-14? The downside here is phantom only, meaning bulkier powering/less stealthable.

Here is the answer to you.
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,105713.0/all.html

I tape stealth 100%.  Yes it is bulkier and heavier but it is really worth.
I would rather go for the incontinent set-up for the better sound than an easy set-up for the less impressive sound.
Koichi

[fmaderjr]

Richard, Darktrain: how do the MM-HLSC's stand up against CA-14? You're saying that they perform better under certain conditions? I see them retailing for $250, are they worth the extra cash compared to Church gear?

To me, they're not worth the extra money. I've made great recordings with both, but the CA-14's are much cheaper plus you do need to get the 4.7 mod for the HLSC's to be reliable recording at high sound pressure levels. Both sound great but the CA-14's may have a tad more bass.

[darktrain]

Richard, Darktrain: how do the MM-HLSC's stand up against CA-14? You're saying that they perform better under certain conditions? I see them retailing for $250, are they worth the extra cash compared to Church gear?

To me, they're not worth the extra money. I've made great recordings with both, but the CA-14's are much cheaper plus you do need to get the 4.7 mod for the HLSC's to be reliable recording at high sound pressure levels. Both sound great but the CA-14's may have a tad more bass.

Personally I like the HLSC's(4.7k mod) because i can go mic in on the marantz pmd620 for loud shows and i use the 9100 for qiet stuff but going mic in for the loud stuff makes a great small profile setup

[acidjack]

I have used the AT853's(4.7k mod), the MM-HLSC's(4.7k mod) , DPA4061's, MK4's>nbox, 4021's and i was getting such good results from the HLSC's i have basically thinned my gear back down to them and some church cards for backup and i will have to also strongly agree Location is by far the most important factor in a good pull, hell i even got a very good pull out of those shitty giant squid omnis once but only because i was in the absolute sweet spot, which brings up another point, the 4061' are omnis and i found I get by far more good and consistant recordings from cards in more situations, the dpa's were hit and miss depending on location and venue.

Those HLSC are Sennheiser MKE40, right?  I think those are an excellent option, as long as you don't rely on the bass. 

And is Audix really regarded as a significant improvement over AT853 or CA-14? The downside here is phantom only, meaning bulkier powering/less stealthable.

Here is the answer to you.
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,105713.0/all.html

I tape stealth 100%.  Yes it is bulkier and heavier but it is really worth.
I would rather go for the incontinent set-up for the better sound than an easy set-up for the less impressive sound.
Koichi

Thanks for the link to the other post on the 1290s.  I had never heard of these until this post.  Interesting.  I'm assuming (without us going into too much detail on sensitive topics in public) you run them in a hat?  And you're running them into a PMD 660 with Oade mod?  Frankly, I usually 'stealth' only because the venues I go to dislike stands, not because the band/security really cares, so this could work for me. 

Is there a good retailer that sells these mics?  I noticed from a quick Google search that it seems the stock mic comes with 25ft cables, which is way too much for self-mounting.  Can they be purchased with shorter cables? 

Finally, does anyone have any opinions on the Audix 1290s vs. DPA 4022?

[illconditioned]

I have used the AT853's(4.7k mod), the MM-HLSC's(4.7k mod) , DPA4061's, MK4's>nbox, 4021's and i was getting such good results from the HLSC's i have basically thinned my gear back down to them and some church cards for backup and i will have to also strongly agree Location is by far the most important factor in a good pull, hell i even got a very good pull out of those shitty giant squid omnis once but only because i was in the absolute sweet spot, which brings up another point, the 4061' are omnis and i found I get by far more good and consistant recordings from cards in more situations, the dpa's were hit and miss depending on location and venue.

Those HLSC are Sennheiser MKE40, right?  I think those are an excellent option, as long as you don't rely on the bass. 

Richard, Darktrain: how do the MM-HLSC's stand up against CA-14? You're saying that they perform better under certain conditions? I see them retailing for $250, are they worth the extra cash compared to Church gear?

And is Audix really regarded as a significant improvement over AT853 or CA-14? The downside here is phantom only, meaning bulkier powering/less stealthable.

I feel the MKE40 sound better than the AT853 or CA11.  They don't have as much bass response, and you do need to apply the 4.7k mod (and they are more expensive), but they sound clearer and more detailed to me.

Again, I stongly recommend (great sounding) omnis if you can get away with it.

  Richard

[M]

Finally, does anyone have any opinions on the Audix 1290s vs. DPA 4022?

I think the 4022's sound quite a bit different, they are more comparable to the akg 480's, from what I've heard.  They definitely smoke any cardiod lavalier mic I've heard. 

All imo of course.

I ran my at's for the first time in over a year the other night and am regretting it now.

[su6oxone]

Audix m1290 > PMD 661 seems like a good, non-bulky solution for about a grand (or less?).  I've liked what I've heard of the Audix on LMA.

[scoper]

I feel the MKE40 sound better than the AT853 or CA11.  They don't have as much bass response, and you do need to apply the 4.7k mod (and they are more expensive), but they sound clearer and more detailed to me.

Again, I stongly recommend (great sounding) omnis if you can get away with it.

  Richard

If I'm reading you correctly, they're not really a clear upgrade from the 853's, just a lateral move to a somewhat better sound. I would gain that, and lose the flexibility of multiple cap patterns.

SoundPro offers the 4.7k mod for the AT853's, which I have not had done. I generally don't go to ear-splittingly loud shows and have never overloaded the 853s. I've always been tempted to buy a small db meter from Radio Shack and measure the SPL at a "loud" show. It also has to do with location - I'm never close to the stacks, and being half an arena away at a rock show won't be enough to put it over the top.

[illconditioned]

I feel the MKE40 sound better than the AT853 or CA11.  They don't have as much bass response, and you do need to apply the 4.7k mod (and they are more expensive), but they sound clearer and more detailed to me.

Again, I stongly recommend (great sounding) omnis if you can get away with it.

  Richard

If I'm reading you correctly, they're not really a clear upgrade from the 853's, just a lateral move to a somewhat better sound. I would gain that, and lose the flexibility of multiple cap patterns.

SoundPro offers the 4.7k mod for the AT853's, which I have not had done. I generally don't go to ear-splittingly loud shows and have never overloaded the 853s. I've always been tempted to buy a small db meter from Radio Shack and measure the SPL at a "loud" show. It also has to do with location - I'm never close to the stacks, and being half an arena away at a rock show won't be enough to put it over the top.

No, MKE40 are a clear upgrade from AT853.  Of the miniature cardioids (AT853, Shure MX184, Church Audio), these are my favourite.  Very pleasing sound and nice detail.  They remind me *a bit* of the Neumann KM184 sound, although not as good, of course.

The question is, are MKE40 enough of an improvement to justify the price (and limitation of cardioid only caps).  *If* I used cards a lot, I would say yes.  But I'm mostly using omnis now, so I rarely use my pair.

  Richard

[acidjack]

I feel the MKE40 sound better than the AT853 or CA11.  They don't have as much bass response, and you do need to apply the 4.7k mod (and they are more expensive), but they sound clearer and more detailed to me.

Again, I stongly recommend (great sounding) omnis if you can get away with it.

  Richard

If I'm reading you correctly, they're not really a clear upgrade from the 853's, just a lateral move to a somewhat better sound. I would gain that, and lose the flexibility of multiple cap patterns.

SoundPro offers the 4.7k mod for the AT853's, which I have not had done. I generally don't go to ear-splittingly loud shows and have never overloaded the 853s. I've always been tempted to buy a small db meter from Radio Shack and measure the SPL at a "loud" show. It also has to do with location - I'm never close to the stacks, and being half an arena away at a rock show won't be enough to put it over the top.

No, MKE40 are a clear upgrade from AT853.  Of the miniature cardioids (AT853, Shure MX184, Church Audio), these are my favourite.  Very pleasing sound and nice detail.  They remind me *a bit* of the Neumann KM184 sound, although not as good, of course.

The question is, are MKE40 enough of an improvement to justify the price (and limitation of cardioid only caps).  *If* I used cards a lot, I would say yes.  But I'm mostly using omnis now, so I rarely use my pair.

  Richard

So it sounds like, to summarize this thread, and taking personal opinion into account, the ranks (cards only; I'll exclude omnis since that is a whole different beast) might go something like:

DPA 4022 > Audix 1280/1290 > Senn MKE40 aka HLSC > AT 853 and CA-14's > everything else

Is that a fair statement?   

I'm feeling mighty tempted by the prospect of these Audix.  Was going to save my pennies for 4022's (and probably still will) but seems like a potentially useful interim upgrade.