Topic: Questions about wide-card/subcard condensor mics

[Todd R]

I'm wondering whether wide-card/subcardioid mics maintain the characteristics of omni mics in terms of insensitivity to wind noise and also of proximity effect, or are they more like cardioids?  Talking only about single-diaphragm small diameter condensors here, not a sub-card pattern on a large diameter mic that actually uses twin back-to-back cardioid capsules.

As part of this, is it fully dependent on the particular design of the mic, or does it depend on how close the particular mic's pattern is to omni vs cardioid, or is it that subcards are a pressure gradient mic and not a pressure transducer and thus act pretty much like cardioids when it comes to proximity effect, bass rolloff at distance and sensitivity to wind noise?

I guess I would have thought that subcards, no matter how close in pattern they might be to omnis, are a type of pressure gradient mics and thus they would behave pretty much exactly the same as cardioid mics in terms of these inherent mic characteristics.

Reading between the lines a bit from this very good article on mic types from sound on sound [link], it seems to me that directional mics are a tradeoff between pure pressure (omni) and pure pressure gradient (fig8).  It seems like the closer the directional pattern is to an omni, the more it will behave like one (no proximity effect, no bass rolloff at distance, relative insensitive to wind) and the more it is like a fig8 (eg., hypercard, supercard), the more it will behave like one (greater bass rolloff at distance, more proximity effect due to design changes made to counteract the former, more sensitivity to wind).  So it seems inherently that a subcard (esp as gets closer to an omni) will have the characteristics of an omni, and that it will not depend on the specific design of a specific subcard.

Is this the right way to understand the characteristics of a subcard?  Any additional thoughts?

[mfrench]

the dpa subs do not. they exhibit the same as any card.

[DSatz]

There's an odd asymmetry in the language used to describe microphones: Only pure pressure transducers are called pressure transducers, while a microphone that uses a combination of pressure and pressure-gradient response is invariably described as a pressure-gradient transducer. Pure pressure transducers are omnidirectional while pure pressure gradient transducers are bidirectional (figure-8). Any other pattern is a mixture. Cardioid is a 50/50 mix--yet cardioids are invariably described as "pressure-gradient." Go figure.

For single-diaphragm microphones, you can use the spectrum of "first-order" directional patterns as a guide to how much sensitivity a microphone will have to wind, breath noise, "popping" of consonants with close-miked vocals, proximity effect, and sensitivity to vibration and handling noise. The more toward the pressure-gradient end of the spectrum you get (supercardioids, hypercardioids and finally figure-8s), the more you'll have these problems.

So if a wide cardioid microphone is single-diaphragm, it will very likely be less sensitive to wind and breath noise than a comparable cardioid. This also applies to solid-borne noise.

The first time I recorded a concert with a pair of single-diaphragm wide cardioids, I used two different miking positions depending on the instruments and voices in each piece on the program, so I was picking up the entire mike stand, moving it, and setting it back down onto the floor. When I got home and played back the recording, there was no trace of noise at all as the stand was moved and set down onto the floor.

The above statements do not apply to electrically switchable multi-pattern microphones, which have two cardioid capsules back to back; each has the usual cardioid sensitivity to wind and breath noise and mechanical shock, so when you add them together to make an "omni" or a wide cardioid, you still have those problems to some degree. Dual-diaphragm microphones even have some proximity effect when set to "omni."

--best regards

[Todd R]

Thanks much for the feedback gentlemen!

[goodcooker]

When I had Peluso subcards they were closer to the card caps in some of the areas you mention - mainly wind and proximity effect.  They had more bass roll off than the cardioids when used from a distance however....which I guess is different from some others.

I used Neumann subcards (ak43s) for Panic in November and the opposite was true.

Go figure.

[DSatz]

goodcooker, that just goes to show that a directional pattern is a directional pattern, while frequency response is frequency response. A microphone with directional pattern "X" can have any frequency response that its acoustical design allows. There's no rule that says that a wide cardioid will have more bass than a cardioid, or that a supercardioid will have less bass than a cardioid, either. It all depends on how the various capsules are designed and built.

--best regards

[goodcooker]

goodcooker, that just goes to show that a directional pattern is a directional pattern, while frequency response is frequency response. A microphone with directional pattern "X" can have any frequency response that its acoustical design allows. There's no rule that says that a wide cardioid will have more bass than a cardioid, or that a supercardioid will have less bass than a cardioid, either. It all depends on how the various capsules are designed and built.

--best regards

I'm from Alabama. What you said is what I meant by "go figure".

[DSatz]

Then your state has a much more efficient way of communicating than we have here in Noo Yawk, and I bow to you [-all].

--best regards

[trustthex]

Then your state has a much more efficient way of communicating than we have here in Noo Yawk, and I bow to you [-all].

--best regards

DSatz, I have learned much from you, but I must correct you here... It's y'all.  One syllable.  Do you sound redneck saying it; hell yes.  Is it much more efficent?  Yes!   

Signed,

A dumb kid from Texas.