Topic: separate preamp and recorder vs all-in-one unit?

[jnorman34]

i see that many of you are choosing to run multi-box setups, such as mics>littlebox>M10, where you are using nice mics, running those into a stand-alone preamp, be it a V3 or naiant or sonosax, and then unto the line inputs on a small recorder which doesnt have XLR inputs. 

can you please describe for me why you chose that route as opposed to using a single unit such as a PMD661 or similar?  thanks.

[Scooter123]

Because nice mikes sound better and they need phantom power supplied by the preamp.

[aosone]

Having good gear is the easy part, but even the best gear will give you a crappy recording if you don't have the mics in the right location.

[Napo]

Tapers start with the basic set-up, mics and recorder (with battery box, if needed), and then build up their rigs with preamps and more than one set of mics for the pleasure of having options in different field recording circumstances.

I started with CA11>ST9100>M-10. I have moved to MK22>CMR>TinyBox>M10 and now I am dreaming for Milabs mics and an SDmixerpre.

[page]

Once you get excellent equipment, whether you run a preamp or use the gain on your deck is largely one of sonic flavor preference.

This is all based on having an all-in-one box that is good enough to start with.

[jnorman34]

sorry, i didnt make my question quite clear enough.  i was not asking about using an all in one unit with its internal mics - i recognize that external mics will almost always be better.

i was asking about using mics>littlebox>M10  vs  mics>pmd661  type of arrangment.  why use 2 boxes instead of one?  are the preamps in the little box significantly better than the preamps in the pmd661 or fostex fr-le2?    if so, which single box solutions have GOOD preamps? - the sound devices 702?  sonosax minir82?  edirol R-4?  tascam Dr680?

thanks.

[darby]

once again it depends on personal taste and application

I PREFER the sound of my preamps to the sound of the internals on both my Tascam units
plus I had my V3 before I started recording in 24 bit and certainly didn't want to get rid it
I use the Littlebox > M10 combo because I had the Littlebox first and can use the M10 various other ways

as far as the the other units you mentioned compared to the Littlebox
besides the Sound Devices and the Oade R4 Pro... I don't know since I haven't used them
I like the sound of the preamp on those units, but don't wish to spend that much on a recorder

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

once again it depends on personal taste and application

I PREFER the sound of my preamps to the sound of the internals on both my Tascam units

This my opinion as well.  I have several mic/preamps combinations and specific sounds that I like for certain situations. I match my gear for the recording environment of the evening.

That said, for someone starting out I feel that there are advantages to using a reasonable quality all-in-one unit.  The number of extra wires and batteries is reduced.  The complexity of trouble shooting in the field is reduced.  Many of the all in one units offer line or digital in so if one later decides that an external preamp or ADC is preferred, the internal preamp or ADC can be bypassed.  Then later when a low profile situation arises or if one is travelling, the fall back mics>all-in-one-box solution can be used.  Very often when I visit a questionable venue or a hostile environment, I'll go back to just the DPA>722 configuration to keep things small and secure.  It's nice to have that option.

[stevetoney]

JNorman, I asked myself this same question back a couple of years before I started experimenting with gear combo's of all sizes and shapes because honestly I initially felt the tapers were fairly anal and that it didn't make much sense to carry lots of extra gear when a good quality all-in-one could do the trick.  Now after going through a personal adventure of trying everything out on my own, I've changed my thinking. 

So for my own purposes, the answer is simply that none of the all-in-one units sound as good as the sound provided from the better sounding preamps.  For me, it really all comes down to that.  That said, I've turned fairly anal about my sound.  So in that respect I was right...that tapers with lots of components are fairly anal about their sound.  I'm not sure the typical audience member would discern between a recording made with an all-in-one versus one made with a great sounding external preamp.  However, after testing and listening to alot of gear myself, I've trained my ear to know what I like and what I don't.  The bottom line is that my recordings with my preferred external preamp sounds better than me to any all-in-one I've tried.

[Belexes]

I don't do a lot of open taping, so in my case I opted for an all-in-one FR2-LE but had it in for a mod by Busman.  It's nice not having to lug around all the extra gear and interconnects.

If I did more open taping and had higher-end mics than the BSC1's, I think I'd consider mics > pre > deck

[datbrad]

sorry, i didnt make my question quite clear enough.  i was not asking about using an all in one unit with its internal mics - i recognize that external mics will almost always be better.

i was asking about using mics>littlebox>M10  vs  mics>pmd661  type of arrangment.  why use 2 boxes instead of one?  are the preamps in the little box significantly better than the preamps in the pmd661 or fostex fr-le2?    if so, which single box solutions have GOOD preamps? - the sound devices 702?  sonosax minir82?  edirol R-4?  tascam Dr680?

thanks.

The units with "GOOD" preamps are all the ones you mentioned, and you should add Nagra to that list. That being said, myself and a vast number of others hear an improvement with outboard preamps even with the Sound Devices and other top priced recorders. In my experience, it's not simply the quality of the preamp circuit built into the recorders that is really the issue, IMO. I purchased a PMD661 with the Oade Warm Mod upgraded preamps, and yet I still use outboard preamps. The built in preamps, even with the upgrades, I still view mainly as a backup in the event my preamp fails, or in very rare cases where size requirements of a situation call for it.

For me at least, I have always found that in loud rock shows recording off the PA, being able to harness the sound properly with an outboard preamp, then feeding a more even line level signal to the recorder works better than trying to handle the entire job using only the recorder's gain control. The recorder's gain control works more like a trim when using line in and I find that easier in the field. An added benefit is the strain on the recorder's power supply is eased with the preamp handling the phantom power to the mics. You get signifiantly longer battery life running a recorder line in, or digital in, than mic in with phantom.

[datbrad]

Once you get excellent equipment, whether you run a preamp or use the gain on your deck is largely one of sonic flavor preference.

This is all based on having an all-in-one box that is good enough to start with.

This is not completely accurate, for reasons I explained in my last post.

[page]

Once you get excellent equipment, whether you run a preamp or use the gain on your deck is largely one of sonic flavor preference.

This is all based on having an all-in-one box that is good enough to start with.

This is not completely accurate, for reasons I explained in my last post.

I guess we'll agree to disagree.

[datbrad]

Once you get excellent equipment, whether you run a preamp or use the gain on your deck is largely one of sonic flavor preference.

This is all based on having an all-in-one box that is good enough to start with.

This is not completely accurate, for reasons I explained in my last post.

I guess we'll agree to disagree.

Guess so, but you seem to be in the minority as most 7 series owners I know run outboard preamps, and it's not just for a difference in flavor. Certainly the 7 series is one of the better recorders out-of-the-box for use as an all in one, but I have never heard a top grade preamp paired with one that only offered a difference in sonic character, rather than a noticably "cleaner" sound, for lack of a better word. That and the control advantages I mentioned in my earlier post.

Edit to add: While we are on the topic, you should check out CK's V2 up in the YS for $600. If you ran your Beyers through that into your 722, it would sound better than running the mics straight in, I promise.

[jlykos]

Everybody has different reasons.  For me personally, I can stealth with a small recorder and I can't with a 671, for example.  The flexibility of running an open or stealth setup with the same piece of gear while only paying for one recorder appeals to me.