Topic: Why are my recordings all drums & vocals, but no guitars?

[jj69]

Just a quick question for the experts.  Perhaps someone knows what's going on here.  I've been using some new gear and it seems like my recordings have been emphasizing vocals and drums over guitars.  I'm recording loud hard rock type bands playing through a PA in small clubs and theaters. 

The gear I'm using is a simple Sound Professionals SP-SPSM-1 mic (omnis in a T configuration) into a 12V battery box into a Sony PCM-M10's line input.  Here's the mic:

http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-SPSM-1

The Sony is recording at 16 bit, 44.1k, with both bass filter and limiter on. 

What do you think?  Is it because the mics are omins? 

[page]

In really small clubs, I've found that when they try and amp the vocals through the stacks, you get bleed through of the drums (cause the singer seems to want to stand right in front of the drummer courtesy of the small stage). I've seen it occur mostly at places where the max capacity is around 100 people. Not saying thats it, but thats whats happened each time I've had this effect.

[newplanet7]

A few questions for you.
1) You say new gear. Did this happen with your old gear?
2) This is happening in more than one club/venue?
3) How are you mounting the mic? Wearing it?
4) Typically, where is your location in these clubs? Way up front?

The last two are in bold because I think it's either a location or set-up issue. With that, I'm guessing a mix of the two.
Omnis should not be the issue as to why you are not picking up the other instruments.
I would definitely turn off the limiter and bass cut filter also just for good measure.
On paper, the gear should perform it's intended function.

[jj69]

1) This did not happen with my old gear in the same venues.  Previous setup was an Olympus ME-51S mic (which I believe uses cardioid elements) into an MTII via mic input. 
2) Yes.  In fact, in the same venues where I used my old gear. 
3) I am wearing the mic clipped to my chest with a tie clip.  Now that you mention it, with the old gear, I used to leave the mic and the MTII sitting on a table (but in the same location within the venue). 
4) I try to stand as far back as possible.  I'd say about 3/4 of the way back. 

Just to clarify, the mic is picking up the other instruments.  It's just that drums and vocals seem to be really pronounced whereas inside the hall, the mix sounded more balanced. 

These are venues with capacity between 300 and 500. 

[George]

I'm wondering why do you have the bass filter and limiter on?   I never use those and I don't think any tapers on TS rely on those either.

[Cheesecadet]

I have my limiter on just in case but run my levels low enough to where it is generally never engaged.  I never run with a bass rolloff on my M10. 

Could it be that the mix that particular night didn't have the guitars up front in the mix?

[jj69]

I'm wondering why do you have the bass filter and limiter on?   I never use those and I don't think any tapers on TS rely on those either.

I use the bass filter because the battery box I'm using at the moment has no bass rolloff.  The Sound Professionals mic has a much wider frequency response (20-20k) than the Olympus (100-15k), so some bass rolloff is needed.  The recordings I made without any rolloff were unlistenable, and I hate using EQ in post.  Admittedly, the Sony's filter is supposedely rather high (200Hz), so that could be an issue. 

As for the limiter, I'm not aware of any reason not to use it.  I set the levels at Sony's suggested -12dB, so I guess I don't really need it.  But what would be the disadvantage of using it?  Isn't a limiter desirable to prevent clipping from an unexpected noise? 

[jj69]

Could it be that the mix that particular night didn't have the guitars up front in the mix?

It sounded fine in the room.  This happened with more than one show in more than one venue, but some shows came out better than others. 

[page]

I'm wondering why do you have the bass filter and limiter on?   I never use those and I don't think any tapers on TS rely on those either.

As for the limiter, I'm not aware of any reason not to use it.  I set the levels at Sony's suggested -12dB, so I guess I don't really need it.  But what would be the disadvantage of using it?  Isn't a limiter desirable to prevent clipping from an unexpected noise?

When I'm not running my 722 line-in, I've run the limiter on it (engages at -4db) and run it so that I'm peaking about 4db under that. The one time I didn't run it the band busted out a didgeridoo and I came home with 30 seconds of solid whomwhom clipping which sounds like ass. The limiter is the lesser of two evils as far as I'm concerned. As long as you set your levels so that it's not engaging except in emergencys, then I wouldn't worry about it, especially if you're using a 24bit recorder which doesn't have noise issues so you can spare 6db or so.

[acidjack]

I'm wondering why do you have the bass filter and limiter on?   I never use those and I don't think any tapers on TS rely on those either.

I use the bass filter because the battery box I'm using at the moment has no bass rolloff.   The Sound Professionals mic has a much wider frequency response (20-20k) than the Olympus (100-15k), so some bass rolloff is needed.  The recordings I made without any rolloff were unlistenable, and I hate using EQ in post.  Admittedly, the Sony's filter is supposedely rather high (200Hz), so that could be an issue. 

As for the limiter, I'm not aware of any reason not to use it.  I set the levels at Sony's suggested -12dB, so I guess I don't really need it.  But what would be the disadvantage of using it?  Isn't a limiter desirable to prevent clipping from an unexpected noise?

Still, no reason to do this.  You should adjust bass in post.  The bass rolloff on those small decks is just not any good; also, once it's gone, you can't really put it back.  Rolling off at 200Hz, especially depending on the curve it's using, is massive overkill.

Not all limiters are created equal as I understand it. For example, the Sound Devices 722 that page mentions below is a superior quality audiophile deck designed for recording music and FX - its limiter probably works with those applications in mind.  The primary purpose of a Sony M10 and units like it is recording speech and that is what its settings such as the limiter and the bass rolloff are set for.  When used with music, the results can be unpredictable.  It may well be the case that the "limiter" is not working like a typical hard limiter that just prevents clipping, but actually starts compressing and limiting your signal prior to hitting the clip point; in fact, I'd bet it probably does.  That is why you'll find pretty much universal agreement on this board that with these small decks like the M10, which are very good when used properly, you should never use these various "automatic" settings the deck has. 

As to your original problem, it sounds like one of placement or program material or both.  In general with a lot of rock recordings made in the audience, you are going to find that guitars don't come through as clearly as vocals and drums.   I find that even running high-end gear, I have some recordings that I am not terribly happy with the guitar on. 

[jj69]

Thanks for the input guys.  By the next time I tape, I should have a new batt box with built-in adjustable rolloff.  So I can go without the Sony's bass filter or limiter. 

I may also try going back to the Olympus, which made some amazing recordings with me through the MTII's mic stage, but no so good into other decks.  One thing I just learned is that the MTII's plug-in has a full 5V of plug-in power, more than most other models.  I'm thinking it may work well with the Sony throu a full 12V from a proper batt box. 

[George]

Plus, you received an answer from aaronji regarding the bass roll off on the M10 in another thread you created:

"I think the "24 dB/octave" means that for every halving of the frequency (i.e. one octave decrease), starting at 200 Hz, the signal will be decreased by 24 dB.  So at 100 Hz, down 24 dB.  At 50 Hz, down another 24 dB.  Pretty drastic low-cut; often it's 6 or 12 dB per octave..."

With my rig I never use the bass roll off or limiter...I just dial it in and leave some room for any loud bursts.

[TimeBandit]

The Sony is recording at 16 bit, 44.1k, with both bass filter and limiter on. 

Switch to at least 24 Bit / 48k, and switch all aids like auto gain, limiter OFF and keep that off (use a patch of Gaffa against switch abuse).

24 Bit = more information, more headroom and better handling for later mastering.

I bet you solve the bass and instrument issues if you only only switching to 24Bit, aids off, let the sony run at around -6db on the peaks - gain it during soundcheck or opening act and then leave it.
Even the peaks around -12 are good enough if you wanna do save, you can raise the gain of 24 Bit recording in post much better then a 16 Bit.

[jj69]

I bet you solve the bass and instrument issues if you only only switching to 24Bit, aids off, let the sony run at around -6db on the peaks - gain it during soundcheck or opening act and then leave it.

I never really understood the logic of recording at higher bit rates.  I ultimately write everything to CD, so anything would have to be downsampled to 44/16 eventually anyway.  If there are valid reasons for doing so, I'll give it a try. 

Is 24 bit good enough, or should I also use a higher sampling rate?  I've heard that downsampling from 48k to 44k is not good. 

[page]

I bet you solve the bass and instrument issues if you only only switching to 24Bit, aids off, let the sony run at around -6db on the peaks - gain it during soundcheck or opening act and then leave it.

I never really understood the logic of recording at higher bit rates.  I ultimately write everything to CD, so anything would have to be downsampled to 44/16 eventually anyway.  If there are valid reasons for doing so, I'll give it a try. 

Is 24 bit good enough, or should I also use a higher sampling rate?  I've heard that downsampling from 48k to 44k is not good.

1) 24 bit allows you to record at a quieter volume without taking a hit on converter noise. For recording and mastering, 24 bit is great, less so for listening but can still have a benefit if a different mastering touch is used.
2) Downsampling can range from transparent to ugly depending on the algorithm used. A group of us have debated this and ultimately if you know you're material is destined for a CD and never a DVD (audio or video) and you aren't doing any speed manipulating, then 44.1 is fine. I'd dig up the thread but that takes more effort then I want to expend.