Topic: Any help?

[Herestravy]

Hey guys, im new to recording live music. I have had the idea in mind for awhile but never had the money to get a little rig set up until now! 
So this is what I was thinking.

Zoom H1 Handy Portable Digital Recorder
16GB micro SD card
SP-CMC-20 Deluxe Cardioid Stereo Microphone
SP-SPSB-8  Mini Battery Module with adjustable bass roll-off

Would this be a decent noob rig for local rock shows?
Also do you guys have any tips?

[TimeBandit]

for a first starting rig with the best bang for the buck:

1. used Tascam DR7 (Mk1 old model)
2. Check the yard sale here if church audio ca14 mics and CA9100 preamp appears, or even smaller ca-ugly

your options aren' that good because you can' t set gain on a battery box and the zoom recorder has only 3 settings for gain on the line input. so you are restricted in setting gain.
the dr7 mk1 has a real gain wheel.
even i remind the zoom h1 has a bug which drains out the battery even its turned off.

if you money is no problem check the sony pcm - m10.

[bryonsos]

Here's an interesting listing in the YS:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=149302.0

Aside from that, I agree with the CA-14 idea. You can switch the caps between cardioid and omni. I've heard that the 9000 has more gain than 9100 which is good if you ever record quieter shows. I also agree with the PCM-M10 suggestion, I really like mine!

[George]

Hmm, I didn't know you can changes the elements (caps) on the CA-14's from cards to omni's...you sure of that?

[bryonsos]

Hmm, I didn't know you can changes the elements (caps) on the CA-14's from cards to omni's...you sure of that?

I may be off on that. Either the CA-11 or 14 has interchangeable caps though. Regardless, I would go with the one with the flexibility to change them. PM Church and he'll advise you, plus I think he still has his summer sale going on. I'm currently waiting on a set of CAFS + 9100, can't wait!

[rastasean]

CA11's have the interchangable caps.
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=141135.0
CA-9100 w/ ca-14 omni and ca-14 cardioid mics $299  Now  $279

That's pretty sweet, pre-amp and two pairs of mics for less than $300.

editing...
micro SD cards are pretty inexpensive so if you see an outrageous price for a 16 gig, I'd suggest passing on it. I don't know anything about that recorder but if you already own it, use it--otherwise consider other recorders.

[acidjack]

Zoom recorders are looked upon very unfavorably here, and for good reason.

The H4N is a fine tool for video guys who get SBD feeds and don't really give a shit about the audio because they're just posting YouTube videos.  But most of the rest of their products are pretty bad.

The best bang for your buck, as mentioned, is Church Audio mic of some kind (depending on what you record and what you want to do with them)>Church Audio battery box>recorder of some kind made by Sony, Edirol or Tascam, my preferences being in that order.

FWIW, I recently recommended that a buddy buy an $80 set of Church CA-1 omni mics.  His recordings since he took my advice have been amazing.  But obviously, omni mics are not ideal for every situation.

[hoppedup]

You can probably make listenable recordings with that rig. A few people are gonna step in and suggest the Sony M10 for a recorder. And likely a few more will suggest CA-14/9100 combo package. I agree with this if you want to more than double the budget your selections above seem to indicate. It will give you a rig you're likely to be happy with for a while, if not forever. I've been running Church-Audio mics since I started taping about 2.5 years ago and have no upgrade plans.

If you want to stay reasonably within a budget defined by your selections above, I'd suggest the CA-14/Ugly BB Chris Church is advertising right now for $139.99 http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=141135.0 , which is essentially the same price as the SP-CMC-20 and SP-SPSB-8 together. If you want to start taping right away Sound Professionals is the way to go. If you can wait a bit for the Church gear, it's worth it.

The potential problem going with a battery box is you'll be depending on your recorder for any additional gain. If you are taping loud shows, this may not be a problem, but the cheaper recorders usually don't have the quietest preamps so you may get more noise than you want from the recorder.

One of the Tascam DR-0x recorders would probably suit your purposes. I personally own the DR-07 and DR-05. I use the DR-07 all the time and have the DR-05 for those occasions when I want to run three sources. The DR-05 does have a more sensitive input and you'd need to be careful if you are grabbing board feeds with it. I steered Yarn's mandolin player to the DR-08 because he wanted something really inexpensive with internals that could make a decent tape. Here's one of his recordings with it: http://www.archive.org/details/Yarn2011-03-11  He normally just puts the recorder down somewhere near the soundboard area.

If you're not mounting the mics to yourself, your going to need a mounting system and a stand or clamp/extension pole to clamp to. You can DIY your mount if you are so inclined. And there are threads covering stands, clamps and extensions.

*Note: I see some of this info was covered already, but I started typing this early this morning and just came back to it.

[earmonger]

I guess I'm a minority here, but I would swap out your cardioid mics for omnis since you are just getting started.

Here's why. Cardioids are directional, which means that if you move around at a concert, or turn them away from the sound source, you are going to get a big change in volume. Omnis are a lot more forgiving and--bonus!--give you more bass than equally priced cardioids. If you record outdoors, omnis are also less susceptible to wind noise. (Though the ones I'm going to recommend come with windscreens anyway.)

I've made some very nice recordings through the years with Sound Professionals BMC-2 omni mics, which are eraser-sized and can be clipped to a shirt collar, hat, or whatever, plus a battery box.  SoundPro actually just upgraded the elements that go into those mics, and the newer ones sound appreciably better. They are sensitive enough so that you can get away with just using a battery box, no preamp; if you are recording a really quiet concert, just go straight into mic-in instead of line-in.

Oh, and save a little money and skip the bass roll-off.  Truly crushing bass will overload the mic before the signal gets to the battery box, and otherwise, line-in can handle it. You want to get the most accurate recording the mics can give, bass and all; if you want to lower the bass, you can do that on playback.

I have just gotten some CA-14 mics and am looking forward to recording with them, but if you are watching your budget and want instant gratification, the SoundPro BMC-2 and a battery box would be an excellent starter kit.  Get the clips with the BMC-2, and get the extended warranty if you are going to be using them a lot, since they are on thin wires (great for stealth) and can wear out before three years.  SoundPro's customer service is excellent, and you'll get replacements fast.

And if you can afford the extra $$ for the recorder, the Sony PCM-M10 is just a joy.

[Herestravy]

You can probably make listenable recordings with that rig. A few people are gonna step in and suggest the Sony M10 for a recorder. And likely a few more will suggest CA-14/9100 combo package. I agree with this if you want to more than double the budget your selections above seem to indicate. It will give you a rig you're likely to be happy with for a while, if not forever. I've been running Church-Audio mics since I started taping about 2.5 years ago and have no upgrade plans.

If you want to stay reasonably within a budget defined by your selections above, I'd suggest the CA-14/Ugly BB Chris Church is advertising right now for $139.99 http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=141135.0 , which is essentially the same price as the SP-CMC-20 and SP-SPSB-8 together. If you want to start taping right away Sound Professionals is the way to go. If you can wait a bit for the Church gear, it's worth it.

The potential problem going with a battery box is you'll be depending on your recorder for any additional gain. If you are taping loud shows, this may not be a problem, but the cheaper recorders usually don't have the quietest preamps so you may get more noise than you want from the recorder.
 
One of the Tascam DR-0x recorders would probably suit your purposes. I personally own the DR-07 and DR-05. I use the DR-07 all the time and have the DR-05 for those occasions when I want to run three sources. The DR-05 does have a more sensitive input and you'd need to be careful if you are grabbing board feeds with it. I steered Yarn's mandolin player to the DR-08 because he wanted something really inexpensive with internals that could make a decent tape. Here's one of his recordings with it: http://www.archive.org/details/Yarn2011-03-11  He normally just puts the recorder down somewhere near the soundboard area.

If you're not mounting the mics to yourself, your going to need a mounting system and a stand or clamp/extension pole to clamp to. You can DIY your mount if you are so inclined. And there are threads covering stands, clamps and extensions.

*Note: I see some of this info was covered already, but I started typing this early this morning and just came back to it.

I had no idea that the zoom had so many problems, seems like a rip off though because the price of the H1 is a bit higher than the DR-05. After listening to some of your uploads on LMA I can tell already that the CA-14 Mics and CA-9100 will work fine for me. I downloaded a Flac file for the song " Big Country" from the band "Big Daddy Love" and played it on my system, very nicely done recording. Also I listened to Yarn and that recording sounded good compaired to the other internals I have heard. I have made up my mind!

DR-05
CA-14 Mics
CA-9100

im still going to look around though to find some more samples of this type of setup and reviews before I fork some money out. lol

Thank-you for the advice.

[bryonsos]

You will make nice tapes with that rig! Church build time is ~ month, so order 'em soon!!!

[Herestravy]

You will make nice tapes with that rig! Church build time is ~ month, so order 'em soon!!!

I should have enough money in a week or so for the CA-14 Mics+CA-9100. Ill get ahold of them then, I have heard many good reviews about Church Audio from just looking around the forum.
I already ordered the DR-05 on Amazon for only $86 with free shipping! 

[adrianf74]

You will make nice tapes with that rig! Church build time is ~ month, so order 'em soon!!!

I should have enough money in a week or so for the CA-14 Mics+CA-9100. Ill get ahold of them then, I have heard many good reviews about Church Audio from just looking around the forum.
I already ordered the DR-05 on Amazon for only $86 with free shipping! 

If you're getting the cards and omnis with 9100, that's a great little package.  As several people have said here, there are advantages to both omnis and cards. I have both CA-14's and, after getting to use both of them a bit this summer, I've come to (as earmonger mentioned) prefer the omnis over the cards for a plethora of reasons.  Although the cards deflect chatty wooks, the omnis give an overall "better," more natural sound to my ears.    Depending on your situations, the CA-14's might be too big/noticeable for some shows.  I had a pair of CAFS-OMNIS which have a capsule about the size of a match that I recently put up in the yard.  I only put them up as I have made the move to something else but these also have their own advantages/disadvantages. 

I think what we're all trying to say is that there are a lot of good choices for relatively little money compared to the "old days."    I think your 9100/CA-14 package was a good choice.  You'll be hard-pressed to find anything better sounding until you step up considerably.

[bryonsos]

Omnis rawk! I'm basically exclusively running them at all low crowd noise and outdoor shows these days.

[Herestravy]

You will make nice tapes with that rig! Church build time is ~ month, so order 'em soon!!!

I should have enough money in a week or so for the CA-14 Mics+CA-9100. Ill get ahold of them then, I have heard many good reviews about Church Audio from just looking around the forum.
I already ordered the DR-05 on Amazon for only $86 with free shipping! 

If you're getting the cards and omnis with 9100, that's a great little package.  As several people have said here, there are advantages to both omnis and cards. I have both CA-14's and, after getting to use both of them a bit this summer, I've come to (as earmonger mentioned) prefer the omnis over the cards for a plethora of reasons.  Although the cards deflect chatty wooks, the omnis give an overall "better," more natural sound to my ears.    Depending on your situations, the CA-14's might be too big/noticeable for some shows.  I had a pair of CAFS-OMNIS which have a capsule about the size of a match that I recently put up in the yard.  I only put them up as I have made the move to something else but these also have their own advantages/disadvantages. 

I think what we're all trying to say is that there are a lot of good choices for relatively little money compared to the "old days."    I think your 9100/CA-14 package was a good choice.  You'll be hard-pressed to find anything better sounding until you step up considerably.

I will at one point get both whenever I get the money and into more advanced taping so I can see what I think sounds better, as for right now though I think this will be a nice little rig for local rock shows. I'm glad I went ahead and bought the recorder, that way I can get a feel for it. Also check this show out, it's the same set up that I will be using http://www.archive.org/details/bk402011-05-14  not really the type of music I listen to, but the recording sounds very well done.