Topic: Optical to coax...what to do?

[Popmarter]

Hello,

Here is a nice puzzle, what to do best? I have some stuff lying around to transfers cassettetapes. Tapes must end up on harddisc in 24bit/96hz

Plan 1:
Tapedeck > out to XLR in > Behringer Ultramatch 24/96 http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/SRC2496.aspx (does the 24bit/96hz conversion) > Optical Out > converter (something like: http://www.national-tech.com/specs/10tr-08300.htm > Coax in on the Edirol R44. Then record to HCSD.

Maybe (easier/better) Plan 2:
Tapedeck > any suggestions? > Edirol R-44

Now, i was thinking, the Edirol might be able to do the conversion from analog to 24 bit with it's internal converter? Not sure though..
The Edirol only has coax in (and 4 mic in, but that is no option as far as i know)

Few side things:
- I want to record to flashcard, direct to pc is no option (old)
- 24bit please, yes I know it's tape...

Any suggestions?

[Gordon]

do you have a v3?  or one you can borrow?  I've done a few cass > rca/xlr > v3 @24/xx > coax > deck.  been very happy with that.

[bhadella]

Hello,

Here is a nice puzzle, what to do best? I have some stuff lying around to transfers cassettetapes. Tapes must end up on harddisc in 24bit/96hz

Plan 1:
Tapedeck > out to XLR in > Behringer Ultramatch 24/96 http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/SRC2496.aspx (does the 24bit/96hz conversion) > Optical Out > converter (something like: http://www.national-tech.com/specs/10tr-08300.htm > Coax in on the Edirol R44. Then record to HCSD.

Maybe (easier/better) Plan 2:
Tapedeck > any suggestions? > Edirol R-44

Now, i was thinking, the Edirol might be able to do the conversion from analog to 24 bit with it's internal converter? Not sure though..
The Edirol only has coax in (and 4 mic in, but that is no option as far as i know)

Few side things:
- I want to record to flashcard, direct to pc is no option (old)
- 24bit please, yes I know it's tape...

Any suggestions?

Tapedeck > out to XLR in > Edirol R-44

I'm sure the a/d of the R44 is as good or better than that Behringer unit.   

[Popmarter]

Reply to Gordon:
No I have not, neither can I borrow.

Been playing with the idea of getting a Sound Device USB preamp, which I think , could help out here aswell. But this turns out to be a long time plan.

Would like to get these transfer done with the equipment I already have (or a cable extra). Sofar I am only missing the optical/coax converter, but that one is cheap.

[Popmarter]

Reply to bhadella:

XLR to R44, I have been thinking. This will not give any problems with the phantom power? (I guess it must be off).

Specifications r44:
Analog Input Channels 1 - 4 : XLR/TRS Combo type, XLR type (phantom powered), TRS type (balanced/unbalanced)

[bhadella]

Reply to bhadella:

XLR to R44, I have been thinking. This will not give any problems with the phantom power? (I guess it must be off).

Specifications r44:
Analog Input Channels 1 - 4 : XLR/TRS Combo type, XLR type (phantom powered), TRS type (balanced/unbalanced)

Just leave the phantom power off (switches on top of unit). 

[Popmarter]

Almost there...i read the manual (...duh..) and there is something about connecting a analog device to the r44. Like you said, phantom power turned off and a pair of TRS cables will do the job, so RCA out -> TRS In.

What is the difference/better than with RCA out -> XLR In? This cable I have, the others (TRS) not yet.

[Fried Chicken Boy]

Almost there...i read the manual (...duh..) and there is something about connecting a analog device to the r44. Like you said, phantom power turned off and a pair of TRS cables will do the job, so RCA out -> TRS In.

What is the difference/better than with RCA out -> XLR In? This cable I have, the others (TRS) not yet.

Other than the actual physical connector, XLR and TRS connections both accomplish the same thing: 6 in one hand, a half-dozen in the other, as the saying goes.  If there's any issue in your signal chain, it's that the RCA is unbalanced whereas XLR/TRS is balanced.  I suppose this might cause issues but I haven't encountered any when I've run RCA into my R-44 from soundboard feeds.  Someone with more electrical knowledge can weigh in on this much better than I.

If you don't have TRS connectors handy, another option (which I've used successfully with the R-44) are the Hosa RCA to XLR adaptors.  Your chain would be: Tape deck > RCA cable > adaptors > R-44.  And yeah, definitely make sure the phantom power is OFF.

[Popmarter]

I have connected the tapedeck (Nakamichi Dragon) with  the 2 x RCA (left + right) to 2 x XLR (left + right) to the Edirol (Phantom OFF). The outputlevel on the tapedeck I kept very low and played a bit with the gainsetting on the edirol (inner/outer knob....boy...won't go into that , i believe there is info enough about that).
I was pleased with the result (recorded a part in 24bit/192hz). I don't know if balanced/unbalanced has anything to do with this situation, just don't know how that works. Can changing something in this setup make it 'better'?

New question did arise. By choosing the Behringer route (instead of above) to coax-in, i am bypassing the internal preamp from the Edirol (right?). Would this be 'better' ?. One extra 'problem' is than: i will not be able to record in 192hz, but 96hz max (as that is what the Behringer is passing through). I know, the difference will not be heard, but that is not the point

curious to the advice..

[runonce]

I have connected the tapedeck (Nakamichi Dragon) with  the 2 x RCA (left + right) to 2 x XLR (left + right) to the Edirol (Phantom OFF). The outputlevel on the tapedeck I kept very low and played a bit with the gainsetting on the edirol (inner/outer knob....boy...won't go into that , i believe there is info enough about that).
I was pleased with the result (recorded a part in 24bit/192hz). I don't know if balanced/unbalanced has anything to do with this situation, just don't know how that works. Can changing something in this setup make it 'better'?

New question did arise. By choosing the Behringer route (instead of above) to coax-in, i am bypassing the internal preamp from the Edirol (right?). Would this be 'better' ?. One extra 'problem' is than: i will not be able to record in 192hz, but 96hz max (as that is what the Behringer is passing through). I know, the difference will not be heard, but that is not the point

curious to the advice..

The Behringer has both optical and coax outputs.

And - you'll want to keep the output level on the tape deck all the way up...no point in attenuating a nice line level signal...you're increasing your noise by running it low.

[notlance]

Tapedeck > out to XLR in > Edirol R-44

I'm sure the a/d of the R44 is as good or better than that Behringer unit.

I agree with the above signal flow.  There is no need to introduce any additional components into the signal flow, especially if they are made by Behringer (yes, that was a snarky comment).   Of course, you could use the R-44's TRS inputs rather than XLR and get the same results; it just depends on what kind of cables you have lying around.

Perhaps it is futile to try to convince you otherwise, but you really do not need to transfer cassette tapes at 24 bits/96kHz, much less 192kHz.  If you set your recording levels to peak at about -6 dBFS or anywhere near that, you can make audibly identical copies of cassettes at 16bit/44.1kHz.  And yes, I realize your cassette deck is a Nakamichi Dragon.

[Popmarter]

I have connected the tapedeck (Nakamichi Dragon) with  the 2 x RCA (left + right) to 2 x XLR (left + right) to the Edirol (Phantom OFF). The outputlevel on the tapedeck I kept very low and played a bit with the gainsetting on the edirol (inner/outer knob....boy...won't go into that , i believe there is info enough about that).
I was pleased with the result (recorded a part in 24bit/192hz). I don't know if balanced/unbalanced has anything to do with this situation, just don't know how that works. Can changing something in this setup make it 'better'?

New question did arise. By choosing the Behringer route (instead of above) to coax-in, i am bypassing the internal preamp from the Edirol (right?). Would this be 'better' ?. One extra 'problem' is than: i will not be able to record in 192hz, but 96hz max (as that is what the Behringer is passing through). I know, the difference will not be heard, but that is not the point

curious to the advice..

The Behringer has both optical and coax outputs.

... ...the 3rd one on the right, rca..?. 

And - you'll want to keep the output level on the tape deck all the way up...no point in attenuating a nice line level signal...you're increasing your noise by running it low.

Checked that. Turned the tapedeck output level all the way up. Edirol preamp (SENS) all the way to left (DBu +4) and inner-knob (LEVEL) all the way to the right. This results in a signal that tops the level scal at -12 dBFS. Nice! No noise whatever. Thanks for the tip.

[Fried Chicken Boy]

Perhaps it is futile to try to convince you otherwise, but you really do not need to transfer cassette tapes at 24 bits/96kHz, much less 192kHz.  If you set your recording levels to peak at about -6 dBFS or anywhere near that, you can make audibly identical copies of cassettes at 16bit/44.1kHz.  And yes, I realize your cassette deck is a Nakamichi Dragon.

x2.  You can maybe rationalize doing the transfer in 24-bit to help your noisefloor for post-processing but anything over 44.1 is pretty much overkill.  The cassette was never a high-fidelity medium regardless of what the hipsters want to think.

[Popmarter]

Perhaps it is futile to try to convince you otherwise, but you really do not need to transfer cassette tapes at 24 bits/96kHz, much less 192kHz.  If you set your recording levels to peak at about -6 dBFS or anywhere near that, you can make audibly identical copies of cassettes at 16bit/44.1kHz.  And yes, I realize your cassette deck is a Nakamichi Dragon.

x2.  You can maybe rationalize doing the transfer in 24-bit to help your noisefloor for post-processing but anything over 44.1 is pretty much overkill.  The cassette was never a high-fidelity medium regardless of what the hipsters want to think.

  I know, i know, no matter what fancy deck, cassette stays always a copy(!) from something better... LP, CD, whatever 

[runonce]

Tapedeck > out to XLR in > Edirol R-44

I'm sure the a/d of the R44 is as good or better than that Behringer unit.

I agree with the above signal flow.  There is no need to introduce any additional components into the signal flow, especially if they are made by Behringer (yes, that was a snarky comment).   Of course, you could use the R-44's TRS inputs rather than XLR and get the same results; it just depends on what kind of cables you have lying around.

Perhaps it is futile to try to convince you otherwise, but you really do not need to transfer cassette tapes at 24 bits/96kHz, much less 192kHz.  If you set your recording levels to peak at about -6 dBFS or anywhere near that, you can make audibly identical copies of cassettes at 16bit/44.1kHz.  And yes, I realize your cassette deck is a Nakamichi Dragon.

Yeah - I know Behringer - just hate it!...Sorry - this is one of the more useful devices I have ever owned...just for the digital domain handi-ness. (SRC and format conversion...I have a DAT collection)

The A/D...is good enough...I evolved from cassette to DAT and then to hard media...I would hope the A/Ds in the Edirol stuff is at least as good....

But shit - check out these mods!

http://www.lampizator.eu/LAMPIZATOR/TRANSPORT/behringer/Ultramatchmikro.html

Really...these things have been on the market for something nearing 10 years!!!

I could care less about the traditional criticisms of Behringer gear...it ALWAYS sounds better than the negative hype...I really dont care who they copied they circuits/products from. (a common net critique)

Fuck - even the lowly Ultragain mic preamp sounds great...not really a "tube" pre, like the dbx386...but sounds more like a solid state hi-res pre...you can buy these for under 50 bux.

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/MIC2200.aspx

I will conceede...my Vampire amp is a cool idea...but mine is hopelessly screwed...noisy swoooshing sound from minute you turn it on...yeah THAT piece of Behringer gear sux...

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

I have connected the tapedeck (Nakamichi Dragon) with  the 2 x RCA (left + right) to 2 x XLR (left + right) to the Edirol (Phantom OFF). The outputlevel on the tapedeck I kept very low and played a bit with the gainsetting on the edirol (inner/outer knob....boy...won't go into that , i believe there is info enough about that).
I was pleased with the result (recorded a part in 24bit/192hz). I don't know if balanced/unbalanced has anything to do with this situation, just don't know how that works. Can changing something in this setup make it 'better'?

New question did arise. By choosing the Behringer route (instead of above) to coax-in, i am bypassing the internal preamp from the Edirol (right?). Would this be 'better' ?. One extra 'problem' is than: i will not be able to record in 192hz, but 96hz max (as that is what the Behringer is passing through). I know, the difference will not be heard, but that is not the point

curious to the advice..

Double check the Behringer, doesn't it have an RCA SPDIF output???  If so, run that to your Edirol...

I would run a few tapes via Dragon > analog > Behringer > SPDIF > Edirol, and then the smae exact tapes via Dragon > analog > Edirol.  I would make a decision from there based on HQ listening...  Both the Behringer and R44 are doing the same thing (level tweak and ADC). 

I know you want 24/192, I think you should run the best you can with both systems and make a decision from there.  You may decide the 24/96 tapes via the Behringer are preferable to a 24/192 tape via the Edirol???

I'm not sure there is a "better" or "best" or anything like that.  They are your tapes, and you are free to present them to The Masses however you like, depending on what you think sounds "better".  If you prefer the Behringer sound, go for it!  If not, ditch it!

Terry


 

[runonce]

I have connected the tapedeck (Nakamichi Dragon) with  the 2 x RCA (left + right) to 2 x XLR (left + right) to the Edirol (Phantom OFF). The outputlevel on the tapedeck I kept very low and played a bit with the gainsetting on the edirol (inner/outer knob....boy...won't go into that , i believe there is info enough about that).
I was pleased with the result (recorded a part in 24bit/192hz). I don't know if balanced/unbalanced has anything to do with this situation, just don't know how that works. Can changing something in this setup make it 'better'?

New question did arise. By choosing the Behringer route (instead of above) to coax-in, i am bypassing the internal preamp from the Edirol (right?). Would this be 'better' ?. One extra 'problem' is than: i will not be able to record in 192hz, but 96hz max (as that is what the Behringer is passing through). I know, the difference will not be heard, but that is not the point

curious to the advice..

Double check the Behringer, doesn't it have an RCA SPDIF output???  If so, run that to your Edirol...

I would run a few tapes via Dragon > analog > Behringer > SPDIF > Edirol, and then the smae exact tapes via Dragon > analog > Edirol.  I would make a decision from there based on HQ listening...  Both the Behringer and R44 are doing the same thing (level tweak and ADC). 

I know you want 24/192, I think you should run the best you can with both systems and make a decision from there.  You may decide the 24/96 tapes via the Behringer are preferable to a 24/192 tape via the Edirol???

I'm not sure there is a "better" or "best" or anything like that.  They are your tapes, and you are free to present them to The Masses however you like, depending on what you think sounds "better".  If you prefer the Behringer sound, go for it!  If not, ditch it!

Terry


 

Ears are the final maker...

Run the Behringer at 0 gain...(at the top/middle) - I would resist adding gain there. Work it later in post.(if you have to add more than 3db in post...maybe bump the levels a bit )

I think the Behringer has opti/coax and AES...and word clock outs.

And - I forget if the Dragon has balanced outs or not - but read up on each unit's preferred way of accepting an unbalanced connection...

[justink]

I have connected the tapedeck (Nakamichi Dragon) with  the 2 x RCA (left + right) to 2 x XLR (left + right) to the Edirol (Phantom OFF). The outputlevel on the tapedeck I kept very low and played a bit with the gainsetting on the edirol (inner/outer knob....boy...won't go into that , i believe there is info enough about that).
I was pleased with the result (recorded a part in 24bit/192hz). I don't know if balanced/unbalanced has anything to do with this situation, just don't know how that works. Can changing something in this setup make it 'better'?

New question did arise. By choosing the Behringer route (instead of above) to coax-in, i am bypassing the internal preamp from the Edirol (right?). Would this be 'better' ?. One extra 'problem' is than: i will not be able to record in 192hz, but 96hz max (as that is what the Behringer is passing through). I know, the difference will not be heard, but that is not the point

curious to the advice..

The Behringer has both optical and coax outputs.

And - you'll want to keep the output level on the tape deck all the way up...no point in attenuating a nice line level signal...you're increasing your noise by running it low.

to the bolded, i've always thought it was good to turn the volume all the way up, then back it down a bit.  this way, you're not blowing the amp (possibly causing distortion) on the outgoing signal, and using clean gain on the incoming signal if needed.

for example:  say you are running an analog patch out of your R-09 headphone jack to the analog in of another R-09.  unity gain on the R-09 is 08 to 13 (if i'm remembering correctly).  so, in this case, if you set your peak levels on the recording/second R-09 where you want them and you're under unity gain, you probably have your first R-09 running too hot out the headphones and might be distorting the signal... correct?

edit:  i get it now... wasn't thinking we're talking about two different things here. 

[Popmarter]

Thanks a for comments,    interesting to see all opinions en differences. I go and try both routes to see what my ears tell. Maybe i will post some samples, but can take a few weeks as i am busy.

[Charlie Miller]

I use this:

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/CO2.html

Runs on AC or 9volt battery.

[Fried Chicken Boy]

I use this:

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/CO2.html

Runs on AC or 9volt battery.

Is this M-Audio box "bit perfect" when it does the conversion?  Asking as I just don't know.  I recall reading other threads here on TS about coax/optical converters where the Hosa models were touted as the favorite because they were bit perfect converters.