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Author Topic: Dithering facts and fiction  (Read 6501 times)

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Offline dklein

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Re: Dithering facts and fiction
« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2004, 06:22:15 PM »
good work man.  I'll give these a go.  I'd recommend using this tool for your comparisons if you're playing back on a pc/laptop source
http://www.kikeg.arrakis.es/winabx/

Here's some other sources in you're not a windows user http://www.pcabx.com/

I must admit, I'm a little bit skeptical about this practice of dithering after each step as most software already bumps up the resolution for processing and dithers back down automatically.  But let's give it a listen first!
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Offline mmmatt

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Re: Dithering facts and fiction
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2004, 09:31:53 PM »
As were listening there is one more thing to consider.  Dithering (here again I'm no authority) in my understanding not only uses it little bits of noise to soften the noise created by some forms of processing, but it also brings subtle nuances out in the source that would otherwise be lost.  By adding a chunk of noise to the ends of these nuances, they become audible.
     Ok JT, or Matt (or anyone else who knows this stuff)... now say it right for me but I think I'm close!  Point being that as we are listening for less noise, we should also listen for more music.  Different versions of the test may have strengths in one end but not the other or there may be one best way to achieve both benefits of dithering.  I guess we will find out!!!
     I think I'm going to post a link to this on another thread.  I think many non-lappy tapers (like me) don't often make it to this side of the sight.

Matt
I do think taping is the reality of the business..it is also an impetus for artists to create studio CDs that are ART, not just another recording...    Fareed Haque  2-4-2005




Canon 24-70 f2.8L, Canon 135 f2L, Canon 70-200 f4L, Canon 50 f1.8, > Canon 5D or Canon xt (digi) and Canon 1N (film)

Offline jk labs

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Re: Dithering facts and fiction
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2004, 10:02:36 AM »
As were listening there is one more thing to consider.  Dithering (here again I'm no authority) in my understanding not only uses it little bits of noise to soften the noise created by some forms of processing, but it also brings subtle nuances out in the source that would otherwise be lost.  By adding a chunk of noise to the ends of these nuances, they become audible.
     Ok JT, or Matt (or anyone else who knows this stuff)... now say it right for me but I think I'm close!  Point being that as we are listening for less noise, we should also listen for more music.  Different versions of the test may have strengths in one end but not the other or there may be one best way to achieve both benefits of dithering.  I guess we will find out!!!
     I think I'm going to post a link to this on another thread.  I think many non-lappy tapers (like me) don't often make it to this side of the sight.

Matt



Seems I'll need a little "dither strategy" paper anyway so this is my take on this:


The MS Excel graph below attempts to show an analog sine wave (in green). The maximum is at "17", thinking this is suitable to demo the performance of an ADC with 32 discrete levels (5 bit converter). The frequency of the analog signal is about 1% of the sample frequency.  The sine wave contains no noise.

This analog signal is input to an ADC implemented in MS Excel spreadsheet.

The ADC in question is assumed to be perfect: The ADC has a totally stable voltage reference against which it measures the signal. The ADC does not inject RF into the analog part. The ADC does not mess with the power supply for the analog stage. The ADC has a totally isolated digital ground. The clock has no jitter. The ADC does not add any jitter to the clock signal. There is no leakage of the clock signal into the analog signal. The analog signal does not modulate the clock. The sample and hold holds a perfect representation of the analog amplitude until this amplitude is sampled. The ADC does not deviate from linear in its conversion of small or large signals.  The ADC input gate adds no noise to the signal, there is no capacitive modulation,... ad infinitum....   

The result of this perfect ADC, processing the green analog signal, is represented in the red dataset. The output is a sequential series of integers in the range -15 to +16 sampled at a fixed interval. The sample is valid for that one instant in time.

We see that there is a difference in the amplitude of the two representations. Truncating the data causes this discrepancy. This is the quantization error. Eyeballing the graph we see that it is less than on bit in amplitude. In fact, it's for all practical purposes triangular and so eats up 50% of the least bit.
Ooops, we just lost 3 dB dynamic range right there.   

But we also see that the quantization error itself stems from changes in the analog data. That is, the quantization error is *correlated* with the input signal. Our ADC, when processing analog data, introduces it. That's bad. Not only do we loose 3 dB dynamic range but we find scads of new harmonics in our digital representation of the original analog signal. So our perfect ADC alters the very signal!

What is worth noting is that the exact same thing happens if you do *any* floating point processing on already digitized data and then proceed to store the result as an integer in any form. The severity of the effect depends on the bitdepth and scales with the relative size of the least significant bit.        

Dithering means to add noise to the analog signal. The quantization error will now correlate with the signal + the dithering noise! Carefully selecting the dither amplitude to +- 1/2 bit (can be "explained" with basis in the graph) derails the quantization error quite effectively. The error is now correlated with the noise! I.e. correct dithering manages to break the correlation between the desired signal and the quantization noise. Our original signal is now better represented in the digital domain but the drawback is that more noise is present in the digitized dataset.

For dithering to work, the noise must not be correlated between samples (it must not be "signal like"). This means it must contain high frequency components causing a different noise value at every sample.
   
White noise is something that the ear and brain is used to. It's also harmless on subsequent processing and it is easy to generate in both the analog and digital domain. So white noise is the basic form of noise used with dithering.

A strategy for reducing the perceived level of noise is to put it in a region of the spectrum where the ear is less sensitive to acoustic energy. By sending all the noise energy up in frequency one attempts to bring the quantization error out of the audible range. This is the idea behind noiseshaping.

PS. The MS Excel graph contains some oddities. The sine wave is clearly distorted and the vertical bars are
offset by half a time step to the right. The first problem is odd in that all data is generated by an Excel formula. The latter is corrected by some option setting I'll find one day...   

Edited: reduced the size of the image to suitable size.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2004, 12:40:11 PM by jk labs »

Offline dklein

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Re: Dithering facts and fiction
« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2004, 10:10:16 AM »
Well I guess I'll be first to go on the record and say I'm not hearing differences.  While I *thought* I heard some, I could not reliably distinguish using that ABX software I linked to above (did ok with samples b1 and b4)..

Why?  Some possible explanations.

- there is already so much noise in both recordings that the incremental noise from dithering is still below the ambient noise floor
- there are no 'subtle sounds' being brought in from outside of the 16 bit (96dB) range that are actually audible over the ambient noise
- there was so much destructive processing that the dither effect was minor compared to the other stuff
- there was no sound that decayed to nil, where the quantizing effect of no dither would be heard
- there is no undithered sample (because wavelab automatically calculates at a higher resolution and brings it back down if you're working in 16 bit mode (btw, what did you set the wavelab temp file resolution at? - check preferences, file)
- my ears are not what they used to be (I'm 37)

Playback was laptop > emagic A62 (digital out) > Lucid DA9624 > Linn/Naim hifi (should be good enough)

I think that we'd need studio quality material and some real decaying sounds to bring out the differences.  Which kinda says that for our purposes this may not be a big deal.  When I say 'for our purposes' I mean field recording in less than ideal circumstances where we have very little conrol over the environment and there's usually tons of background noise.

Who's hearing differences?  And if you are, I challenge you to do it again with the ABX software and hide the results.  Run 5-10 trials and let the software tell you if you're guessing or not.  fyi - set it to ABX, load the 2 files.  All you have to do is say whether X (randomly selected by the software) is the same as A or B.  Then click 'next trial' after you've decided.  Check the 'hide results' button - it'll keep you honest.
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Offline mmmatt

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Re: Dithering facts and fiction
« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2004, 10:40:57 AM »

- there is no undithered sample (because wavelab automatically calculates at a higher resolution and brings it back down if you're working in 16 bit mode (btw, what did you set the wavelab temp file resolution at? - check preferences, file)


32 bit float temp file.  I've never adjusted this so it must be the default.

Matt
I do think taping is the reality of the business..it is also an impetus for artists to create studio CDs that are ART, not just another recording...    Fareed Haque  2-4-2005




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Offline BWolf

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Re: Dithering facts and fiction
« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2004, 09:22:26 AM »
just like to say thanks for that information.  i'm an electrical engineering student and that was extremely enlightening.  thanks :)

taken so many systems and signals/computer processing and there isn't one that is tied to music/audio in any way, so i always had a hard time picturing the digital audio world.  but that put a lot into perspective.  thanks.
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Offline mmmatt

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Re: Dithering facts and fiction
« Reply #21 on: October 30, 2004, 10:06:53 PM »
anybody hear anything?  I will post the key on monday so get the samples if you are interested.

Matt
I do think taping is the reality of the business..it is also an impetus for artists to create studio CDs that are ART, not just another recording...    Fareed Haque  2-4-2005




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Offline mmmatt

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Re: Dithering facts and fiction
« Reply #22 on: November 02, 2004, 09:54:24 AM »
Well... I think this test was a bust.  However here is the key.

Clip "A"  Fire on the Mountain   The Big Wu   wu2004-10-15 

1  different dithers at each step
2 No dithering whatsoever
3 dither same at each step
4 dither at the end

Clip "B"  Rosalie McFall  The Clumsy Lovers  TCL2004-10-14

1 dither at the end
2 dither same at each step
3 No dithering whatsoever
4 different dithers at each step

Naturally I wasn't as blind as the rest, but with my blinders on I heard subtle differences between a few.  Not so much in the noise factor, but in the overall presence of the music that was there.  I felt my original method of dithering between each step was the best.  I heard it most on the glass clink at the begining of clip B.  Who knows though... maybe I just wanted to hear something.  Either way it was so subtle that one would never notice through typical listening applications.

Matt
I do think taping is the reality of the business..it is also an impetus for artists to create studio CDs that are ART, not just another recording...    Fareed Haque  2-4-2005




Canon 24-70 f2.8L, Canon 135 f2L, Canon 70-200 f4L, Canon 50 f1.8, > Canon 5D or Canon xt (digi) and Canon 1N (film)

 

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