Topic: Using vr-61 ext tubes for 480 into "Actives"

[IowaClint]

Just wondering if anybody has done this.  I have searched the archive and found nothing.  Be pretty sweet to hack the ends off of these and and put 15' of silver clad on them.   
~Clint

[jeromejello]

i belive that the vr-61 is only able to be used with the 460s... just like the other actives... something about an extra contact in the body.

i know nothing..

+t for the idea though... since i imagine 460s could benifit from that idea.

[TNJazz]

There was a post along these lines at one time.  Someone on this board took Schoeps podium mounts and made them into custom actives.  Seems like there were some noise issues that never got resolved?

Anyway, I had this exact idea for a pair of 451's last year, and I got the VR1 tubes and everything.  Called AKG and they told me it couldn't be done but wouldn't tell me why.  Talked to an electrical engineer friend of mine and he looked at it and said it probably wouldn't work either and cited something about noise, distance from the capsule, polarizing voltage, yadda, yadda, yadda.  Wish I knew more about this stuff, but at that point it wasn't worth the effort to continue.

Incidentally, those tubes are VERY solid metal, so it's not as easy as "hacking off the ends".  I couldn't even bend one with brute force.

Dirk

[thegreatgumbino]

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=16107.0

[IowaClint]

I am thinking that one of the Hardware /RF engineers at work could help me Isolate the problem.  I am sure it has to be related to the cable type, soldering,  etc....  I think I am going to give it the olde college try. 
~Clint

[thegreatgumbino]

+T for your efforts.  It'd be sweet if it works out.

[johnw]

Here's why it doesn't work:

http://www.akg.com/akg_structuretree/forum/topics//powerslave,_detail,1,id,1196,_language,ENUS,nodeid,4,mynodeid,149.html

Edit: I think someone at SonicSense tried it and got static. But it seems like adding a capacitor might be the solution if all the metal tube does is add capacity. But I am no engineer.  But if someone can make cables for 460s, they will be my hero!

Oh and freelunch tried this with the similar schoeps tubes and has working active cables for his schoeps mics. Maybe he could give it a try?

[TNJazz]

I wonder if this means the capacitor would have to be added on the capsule side though?  Karl mentions the noise being amplified from the cap through the cable.  Seems like adding a capacitor in the body wouldn't have much of an effect.  Then you run into the question of whether or not that's feasible based on the capsule design...

Of course I'm not an engineer so I have no idea.  Sure would be nice though.

Dirk

[it-goes-to-eleven]

Oh and freelunch tried this with the similar schoeps tubes and has working active cables for his schoeps mics. Maybe he could give it a try?

My schoeps actives are working perfectly.. Way on the back burner is an active MG project. But I really like to record more than futz with circuits.  And who wants to screw up a pair pristine $2k matched mics?  So I'm not sure that will happen. Especially once spring hits.

These projects are very time consuming and their is risk.  If you buy one gooseneck for $350 and can't make it work, you have blown the money.  Or if you short the body and mess it up, etc. Then, if you get it working, maybe there are hours of testing and tuning of the circuit for sound quality.

It sounds like some folks are thinking they can just attach the cap to the body with an extension cable.  Nice thought but it won't work.  You need a powered buffer circuit at each end. It is my impression that some AKGs have a FET in the capsule which is capable of driving the cable. It sounds like this series of caps does not.  So that would need to be a part of the design.

[poorlyconditioned]

Oh and freelunch tried this with the similar schoeps tubes and has working active cables for his schoeps mics. Maybe he could give it a try?

My schoeps actives are working perfectly.. Way on the back burner is an active MG project. But I really like to record more than futz with circuits.  And who wants to screw up a pair pristine $2k matched mics?  So I'm not sure that will happen. Especially once spring hits.

These projects are very time consuming and their is risk.  If you buy one gooseneck for $350 and can't make it work, you have blown the money.  Or if you short the body and mess it up, etc. Then, if you get it working, maybe there are hours of testing and tuning of the circuit for sound quality.

It sounds like some folks are thinking they can just attach the cap to the body with an extension cable.  Nice thought but it won't work.  You need a powered buffer circuit at each end. It is my impression that some AKGs have a FET in the capsule which is capable of driving the cable. It sounds like this series of caps does not.  So that would need to be a part of the design.

Exactly.  CK9x series are electrets with the FET built in.  Just run three wires out to a battery box.  You don't even need the bodies!  I've built two sets, one CK91 and one CK93.  Now all I need is CK92

The CK6x are just bare *externally polarized* capsules, so they need: 1) polarization voltage (62V), 2) FET near the capsule.  Both these come from the 460/480 body, or from an "active" connector.

  Richard

[TNJazz]

I've got to think that if it were really just as easy as that someone would have done it by now.  There has to be something else in the equation that would prevent it.  Why would AKG say it's not possible?  They explained to me on the phone a while back why 460's could be used with extension cables and 451's and 480's could not (I didn't understand a word the tech was saying though) so if they would tell me that then why would they not concede that 480's *could possibly* be made to work with a cable system?

I think I've read repeatedly that the 480's lack something to allow for remote powering of capsules.  Maybe therein lies the major limitation?

Dirk

[bluegrass_brad]

the "active" cable for the 460 isnt really active.  It was just an extension cable for the x series capsules, which had the electronics built in and uses an electret style capsule. The 460 body has something that the 450,480's do not which allows them to be used with those cables and capsules. Dont remember the exact details.

[TNJazz]

Right.  A second ring or something in the body that provided that polarizing voltage or something like that.

The CKx series capsules appear to be simply CK1, CK2 and CK3 capsules with an attachment (likely the FET).  I popped the top off one, but I did not dig under the attachment to see what was inside (I only looked at the capsule and the electronics) that were "topside".  They are smaller in diameter than the CK ULS capsules (and the body of the mic too, of course).

The extension cable appears to have a pin that makes contact with the ring in the body (someone told me that's what provides the power) - not sure what's inside this piece either, but it's probably the other half of the equation.

Dirk

[bluegrass_brad]

I may be wrong on this, but if you have the X series capsules supposedly they can be easily powered with a battery box.  This is just something I was told and have never tried it myself. But theoretically it should work since the capsules are the back electret type.

[johnw]

Oh and freelunch tried this with the similar schoeps tubes and has working active cables for his schoeps mics. Maybe he could give it a try?

My schoeps actives are working perfectly.. Way on the back burner is an active MG project. But I really like to record more than futz with circuits.  And who wants to screw up a pair pristine $2k matched mics?  So I'm not sure that will happen. Especially once spring hits.

These projects are very time consuming and their is risk.  If you buy one gooseneck for $350 and can't make it work, you have blown the money.  Or if you short the body and mess it up, etc. Then, if you get it working, maybe there are hours of testing and tuning of the circuit for sound quality.

It sounds like some folks are thinking they can just attach the cap to the body with an extension cable.  Nice thought but it won't work.  You need a powered buffer circuit at each end. It is my impression that some AKGs have a FET in the capsule which is capable of driving the cable. It sounds like this series of caps does not.  So that would need to be a part of the design.

Exactly.  CK9x series are electrets with the FET built in.  Just run three wires out to a battery box.  You don't even need the bodies!  I've built two sets, one CK91 and one CK93.  Now all I need is CK92

The CK6x are just bare *externally polarized* capsules, so they need: 1) polarization voltage (62V), 2) FET near the capsule.  Both these come from the 460/480 body, or from an "active" connector.

  Richard

To be clear, the VR61 and VR62 work with either the 460 or 480 bodies. The VR61 is discontinued and is 12" long. The VR62 is still made and is 3 feet long. The bodies are presumably providing the polzrization voltage the caps need and the tube must have a FET somewhere along the 3 feet.

Why does the tube need to be rigid? Whatever electrical purpose the metal tube is serving should be able to be replaced in the design by something else. For me, even a 3 foot length of flexible material would be great! What is the maximum distance to separate the body from the cap? My A61 angle adapters have no room for electronics, but perhaps they don't need any because the distance the cap is separated from the body is only an inch. I would be willing to chip in money to buy a used 460 body, capsule and tube if someone with the proper background can answer these questions. The VR61 tubes come up all the time on Ebay - a pair just sold for around $100 a week ago. They guy I bought my mics from in 2004 had a ton of VR61s that he was trying to get rid of for $75. I've seen body + cap go for less than $250. In fact there is one on ebay right now that probably won't bring $200 given the cosmetic condition. I'd guess plenty of AKG owners would be interested in finding an answer that explains why you can separate the ck61/62/63 capsule from the 460/480 body with a rigid tube by up to 3 feet, but not with the exact same components in the tube and flexible wiring.

[TNJazz]

OK, tell you what:

I've got to go by AKG in the next couple of days to pick up my stuff (in for checkup and repair).  I will ask the technician directly and see what he says.  If necessary I will wear Sonics and record him word for word!

I'd like to think a lot of this is a combination of misinformation due to misunderstanding the intent (by AKG).  If it is clearly explained what is requested I'm reasonably sure I can get a straight answer.  Plus if I'm standing right in front of him it won't be as easy for him to lie to me!  (not that he would, but you know what I mean)

Dirk

[johnw]

Sounds good! I just want to know why can't there be a 3 foot flexible separation between the cap and body using all the parts from a VR62 except the rigid metal tube.

[poorlyconditioned]

Oh and freelunch tried this with the similar schoeps tubes and has working active cables for his schoeps mics. Maybe he could give it a try?

My schoeps actives are working perfectly.. Way on the back burner is an active MG project. But I really like to record more than futz with circuits.  And who wants to screw up a pair pristine $2k matched mics?  So I'm not sure that will happen. Especially once spring hits.

These projects are very time consuming and their is risk.  If you buy one gooseneck for $350 and can't make it work, you have blown the money.  Or if you short the body and mess it up, etc. Then, if you get it working, maybe there are hours of testing and tuning of the circuit for sound quality.

It sounds like some folks are thinking they can just attach the cap to the body with an extension cable.  Nice thought but it won't work.  You need a powered buffer circuit at each end. It is my impression that some AKGs have a FET in the capsule which is capable of driving the cable. It sounds like this series of caps does not.  So that would need to be a part of the design.

Exactly.  CK9x series are electrets with the FET built in.  Just run three wires out to a battery box.  You don't even need the bodies!  I've built two sets, one CK91 and one CK93.  Now all I need is CK92

The CK6x are just bare *externally polarized* capsules, so they need: 1) polarization voltage (62V), 2) FET near the capsule.  Both these come from the 460/480 body, or from an "active" connector.

  Richard

To be clear, the VR61 and VR62 work with either the 460 or 480 bodies. The VR61 is discontinued and is 12" long. The VR62 is still made and is 3 feet long. The bodies are presumably providing the polzrization voltage the caps need and the tube must have a FET somewhere along the 3 feet.

Why does the tube need to be rigid? Whatever electrical purpose the metal tube is serving should be able to be replaced in the design by something else. For me, even a 3 foot length of flexible material would be great! What is the maximum distance to separate the body from the cap? My A61 angle adapters have no room for electronics, but perhaps they don't need any because the distance the cap is separated from the body is only an inch. I would be willing to chip in money to buy a used 460 body, capsule and tube if someone with the proper background can answer these questions. The VR61 tubes come up all the time on Ebay - a pair just sold for around $100 a week ago. They guy I bought my mics from in 2004 had a ton of VR61s that he was trying to get rid of for $75. I've seen body + cap go for less than $250. In fact there is one on ebay right now that probably won't bring $200 given the cosmetic condition. I'd guess plenty of AKG owners would be interested in finding an answer that explains why you can separate the ck61/62/63 capsule from the 460/480 body with a rigid tube by up to 3 feet, but not with the exact same components in the tube and flexible wiring.

Hey, if you send me any parts I will investigate and report back to you.

I'm *most* interested in a bare CK6x capsule, even an imperfect or broken one, just to see what kind of physical and electrical interface is necessary.  I've actually got all the parts I need to play with except the capsule.

The other things I could use are anything that connects to the 460/480 body, including tubes, angle brackets, actives for the CK1x (electret) capsules, etc.  If it connects to the 460/480 body, then it must have the same threads as the CK6x capsule, so I can use this information.

Please don't spend any serious money on this though.  I would rather just borrow some busted or partially busted gear from someone.

I was thinking of buying a pair of CK63's (I can get them for just under $200 apiece new), but I'm hesitant to spend the money until I know if I can get something working.

  Richard

[TNJazz]

Sounds good! I just want to know why can't there be a 3 foot flexible separation between the cap and body using all the parts from a VR62 except the rigid metal tube.

I've asked this very thing several times in the past 6 months (with regard to making 451's "active") and have just simply been told it's not possible.  I will get specifics when I go get my gear later this week.

Dirk

[it-goes-to-eleven]

I've asked this very thing several times in the past 6 months (with regard to making 451's "active") and have just simply been told it's not possible.  I will get specifics when I go get my gear later this week.

I'm guessing it is a case of "It is possible if you know how to do it and impossible if you don't.."

[TNJazz]

I'm guessing it is a case of "It is possible if you know how to do it and impossible if you don't.."

This would not surprise me at all.  If I can get even that answer out of them, at least we'll know it's possible.

[thegreatgumbino]

Hey, if you send me any parts I will investigate and report back to you.

I'm *most* interested in a bare CK6x capsule, even an imperfect or broken one, just to see what kind of physical and electrical interface is necessary.  I've actually got all the parts I need to play with except the capsule.

The other things I could use are anything that connects to the 460/480 body, including tubes, angle brackets, actives for the CK1x (electret) capsules, etc.  If it connects to the 460/480 body, then it must have the same threads as the CK6x capsule, so I can use this information.

Please don't spend any serious money on this though.  I would rather just borrow some busted or partially busted gear from someone.

I was thinking of buying a pair of CK63's (I can get them for just under $200 apiece new), but I'm hesitant to spend the money until I know if I can get something working.

  Richard

Richard-

Did everything work out with you and Sanjay to get the non-working ck1x cap & mk46 extension cable?  If not, maybe we can track down the new owner & see if they'll donate them to the cause?

My understanding from AKG themselves is they will not service these caps or extension cables any longer.  They will however take your ck_x caps and convert them to a standard ck_ cap.   

[poorlyconditioned]

Hey, if you send me any parts I will investigate and report back to you.

I'm *most* interested in a bare CK6x capsule, even an imperfect or broken one, just to see what kind of physical and electrical interface is necessary.  I've actually got all the parts I need to play with except the capsule.

The other things I could use are anything that connects to the 460/480 body, including tubes, angle brackets, actives for the CK1x (electret) capsules, etc.  If it connects to the 460/480 body, then it must have the same threads as the CK6x capsule, so I can use this information.

Please don't spend any serious money on this though.  I would rather just borrow some busted or partially busted gear from someone.

I was thinking of buying a pair of CK63's (I can get them for just under $200 apiece new), but I'm hesitant to spend the money until I know if I can get something working.

  Richard

Richard-

Did everything work out with you and Sanjay to get the non-working ck1x cap & mk46 extension cable?  If not, maybe we can track down the new owner & see if they'll donate them to the cause?

My understanding from AKG themselves is they will not service these caps or extension cables any longer.  They will however take your ck_x caps and convert them to a standard ck_ cap.   

TNJazz is the new owner, and he is going to get back to me if there are any parts left over.

Note that the CK_x caps are *not* the same as the CK6x's.  They are electret caps, like the c451 mics.  So playing with those is just a distraction and not moving me towards the CK6x's that we all want...

Thanks for asking though.

  Richard

[thegreatgumbino]

TNJazz is the new owner, and he is going to get back to me if there are any parts left over.

Note that the CK_x caps are *not* the same as the CK6x's.  They are electret caps, like the c451 mics.  So playing with those is just a distraction and not moving me towards the CK6x's that we all want...

Thanks for asking though.

  Richard

Understood.  I'm fully aware of the differences in the ck_x and ck6_ caps.  However, my inquiry was in response to your request:

The other things I could use are anything that connects to the 460/480 body, including tubes, angle brackets, actives for the CK1x (electret) capsules, etc.  If it connects to the 460/480 body, then it must have the same threads as the CK6x capsule, so I can use this information.

Please don't spend any serious money on this though.  I would rather just borrow some busted or partially busted gear from someone.

I figure this could be a step in the right direction.  Threading info is the same, the cap + cable could provide some insight on the req'd electronics for actives. 

Just a thought since the gear is not operational & could potentially be donated, rather than us pooling money to buy gear (working or not) to be sacrificed for the cause.

+T for your interest/efforts Richard.

EDIT to add:  This also stems for the fact that since the cap + cable are not operational and AKG will not service them, the donation to the cause could be a great option since you, or someone else, may be able to repair them to working order in return.

[TNJazz]

My understanding from AKG themselves is they will not service these caps or extension cables any longer.  They will however take your ck_x caps and convert them to a standard ck_ cap.   

This entire set is currently at AKG Nashville for service.  They didn't give me any indication they wouldn't service them.  The only negative thing they told me was that it was possible the CK2 caps would need to be converted to the CK22 cap (their standard "upgrade" these days  )  If they convert these to standard CK capsules without checking with me first, heads will roll.

If they suddenly contact me and say they won't do the service on them (they've had them for a week and I hand delivered them, so I would have expected refusal immediately) I will have very harsh words for them, both in person and on all kinds of public forums.  To manufacture a product and then not service it is unacceptable, especially since I read somewhere that AKG claims they will service ANY of their historical products at any time.

Did everything work out with you and Sanjay to get the non-working ck1x cap & mk46 extension cable?  If not, maybe we can track down the new owner & see if they'll donate them to the cause?

If the gear cannot be FULLY serviced, the entire package (including 2 Audio Upgrades modified bodies) will likely be up for sale as it will be of no use to me.

OK, now you've got me all worked up.  Time to call over to AKG and find out what's going on...

[thegreatgumbino]

Not trying to piss you off, Dirk. 

I was originally going to purchase the 460 active package from Goose.  After doing extensive research on these components and numerous inquiries with AKG via phone & email, I decided not to pass on the package.  Sanjay then picked these up and sold it to you after coming up empty handed in his search for 460 bodies.

My reason for not buying these was the tech people at AKG Tennessee told me after several phone conversations that:
1) they no longer service the ck_x caps or the mk46 extension cables
2) could not provide me the schematics on either the caps or cables because they do not have them.  They did search for these over the course of a few days supposedly, and could not find them.
3) the only service they would be able to me was "updating" the non-working ck_x to the corresponding ck_ cap.  Effectively removing the "x" ability that allows one to run these caps remotely with the mk46 cable.

[TNJazz]

Not trying to piss you off, Dirk. 

I didn't take it that way at all.  Apologies if I came off heavy-handed.  I was just stating I drove over there last week and handed them the gear.  If they were going to give me the run-around I would have expected it to happen by now.  I am going to call over there in a little while and find out what's going on.

It's strange they told you that they couldn't get you schematics, etc.  Karl has offered up CKx schematics to people on the AKG forum in response to questions previously...

My anger (if it becomes necessary) will not be directed at anyone on this board, but rather at AKG for poor customer support.  Of course, if AKG cannot service the capsules there is surely someone out there who can and will.  In my examination of them, the diaphragms do not appear to be bad so it's likely a contact or an electrical component of some kind that's causing the issues with the non-working capsules.

We'll see what happens.

[thegreatgumbino]

I didn't take it that way at all.  Apologies if I came off heavy-handed.  I was just stating I drove over there last week and handed them the gear.  If they were going to give me the run-around I would have expected it to happen by now.  I am going to call over there in a little while and find out what's going on.

It's strange they told you that they couldn't get you schematics, etc.  Karl has offered up CKx schematics to people on the AKG forum in response to questions previously...

My anger (if it becomes necessary) will not be directed at anyone on this board, but rather at AKG for poor customer support.  Of course, if AKG cannot service the capsules there is surely someone out there who can and will.  In my examination of them, the diaphragms do not appear to be bad so it's likely a contact or an electrical component of some kind that's causing the issues with the non-working capsules.

We'll see what happens.

No problem.  Do you have contact info for Karl?  I'd love to request this from him.  I'm sure AKG will come through in the end.  I've heard nothing but good things about their customer service, fwiw.  +T

[TNJazz]

I didn't take it that way at all.  Apologies if I came off heavy-handed.  I was just stating I drove over there last week and handed them the gear.  If they were going to give me the run-around I would have expected it to happen by now.  I am going to call over there in a little while and find out what's going on.

It's strange they told you that they couldn't get you schematics, etc.  Karl has offered up CKx schematics to people on the AKG forum in response to questions previously...

My anger (if it becomes necessary) will not be directed at anyone on this board, but rather at AKG for poor customer support.  Of course, if AKG cannot service the capsules there is surely someone out there who can and will.  In my examination of them, the diaphragms do not appear to be bad so it's likely a contact or an electrical component of some kind that's causing the issues with the non-working capsules.

We'll see what happens.

No problem.  Do you have contact info for Karl?  I'd love to request this from him.  I'm sure AKG will come through in the end.  I've heard nothing but good things about their customer service, fwiw.  +T

Just service@akg.com sent to his attention.  He's in Austria, so going directly to the source might get results you weren't able to obtain from Nashville.  I've heard and experienced nothing but good things about their service as well, which is why your experiences are a little surprising (and concerning!)

[thegreatgumbino]

Thanks, Dirk.  I just emailed Karl.

[TNJazz]

D'oh!  It wasn't Karl, it was Horst.

http://www.akg.com/akg_structuretree/forum/topics/powerslave,_detail,1,id,1382,_language,EN,nodeid,4,mynodeid,148.html

[johnw]

Another idea - would it be possible to get schematics fro AKG to see what electronics are in these VR extension tubes? Who can be contacted to request schematics?

[thegreatgumbino]

I forwarded it on to Horst.  I'll take the lead with trying to get all these schematics since I've already started the correspondence with AKG Europe.  I'll let everyone know what I find out.

[johnw]

I forwarded it on to Horst.  I'll take the lead with trying to get all these schematics since I've already started the correspondence with AKG Europe.  I'll let everyone know what I find out.

Thanks!