Topic: MacBook Pro for sampling and/or audio editing?

[mysterymadman]

Hi,

Recently, from work I strenuously requested a MacBook Pro, and my wish was (justifiedly so ) granted, so... as of recently, I have taken my first real steps in a very nice OS and hardware world, and naturally, I'd also like to investigate just how well this machine can be used for my audio sampling and editing efforts.

What I've got:
It's the 2.16GHz dual core Intel MacBook Pro, and it has (presently) 1 GB of memory, which will soon be upgraded to 2 or 3 GB. Of course I did not want to miss out on the possibility of also installing Windows on it, so for getting optimum performance out of the machine, I installed it natively in a Bootcamp partition (hence giving me access to the full force of the dual core processor, as well as better overall hardware support than would be the case in an entirely VMWare or Parallels installation), and the Windows of choice was XP Home (good enough for my purposes). Bootcamp 1.2 beta allows you to create a special drivers disc for better hardware support, and after installing it, the "audio hardware device" is listed as being a: "SigmaTel High Definition Audio CODEC" (more about this configuration can be found at a.o.: http://37prime.com/bootcamp.html ). I am not 100% certain as to what the actual hardware is, and probably Apple won't tell, but it does at least feature combined analogue and digital in and outputs.

What I used to use:
Previously I just used to sample from a somewhat old PC (a Dell Optiplex III or so), which AFAIK has an on-board sound card, which by no means will be a high end one. For editing I use Sony's SoundForge 8.0d.

What I'd like to know:
-Are there any (very) good Apple (or 3rd party) OS-X programs, that are up on par with Sound Forge?
-Does anyone know anything about the ADAC quality of the MacBook Pro's sound card?
-Has anyone already experimented with such a machine, and if so, what were your findings regarding audio editing?
-When sampling, would it be preferrable to do so from OS-X (if so: using which program?), or from the native Windows XP installation (with the above mentioned SigmaTel sund driver), using Sound Forge?

Finally, back in 1998 for my M.Sc. thesis I built a high end A/D D/A sampling board, and hence I know just how critical a good design is. More in particular, if the analogue sections are not very properly shielded against "digital overspeak" (if that's what it's called in English), a lot of sampling errors and inaccuracies are introduced, esp. with ADACs that are as precise as 16-bit ones!
Intuitively I would say that the space restrictions of a laptop design would almost inevitably be in direct conflict with the space requirements for such a proper ADAC design, but then, perhaps Apple's engineers have found a way to make it work really well. Is there anyone (probably a real techie) who has any idea about that?

I'm very curious as to exploring the possibilities this machine offers further, and therefore, anyone's 2 cents are more than welcome!

Tnx in advance, and cheerz,
MM

[hummat]

Well, your new laptop's audio in will accept an optical cable. 

In terms of software, there is a Mac OS X version of Audacity.  I'm not a big fan of it's interface and have been using something called SoundStudio from Felt Tip.  It'll run you about $80 but there is a pretty healthy trial period.  The next step up from there gives many options from ProTools to Cubase to Logic (apple's offering) and many others. 

[bgalizio]

Wave Editor also looks good (wbrisette uses it):
http://audiofile-engineering.com/wave_editor.php

[wbrisette]

Wave Editor also looks good (wbrisette uses it):
http://audiofile-engineering.com/wave_editor.php

And highly recommends it. 


Wayne

[xargos]

I would not worry about whether you are sampling from Mac OS X or from Windows, but personally I wouldn't want to trust the onboard audio too much.  On both Windows and Macintosh platforms I have found that using an external audio interface seems to work better. 

As the MacBook Pro has both USB 2.0 and Firewire ports, there should be quite a few external interfaces to choose from.

I personally swear by Audacity for editing, but it is not a program that everyone is comfortable with.  It isn't as easy to use as many of the commercial programs, but it can do plenty of things well.

[mysterymadman]

Hi guys,

Tnx for the advice so far!

Firstly: I'll check out the mentioned programs, tnx!

Then, regarding the sampling (after all: that's what I'm most worried about, and what is one of the major keys to getting a good end result), there are a few thingies of importance:
1-At present my personal budget for hardware upgrades is very limited (we just bought a new house, and we have a baby underway, so.... ), so I'm trying to make do as most as possible with what I have at present, unless I can make very significant improvements for relatively little money (say max. 50 Euros or so).
2-The above pretty much rules out the options of buying high end recording and/or sampling gear, and at present I use a Sony MZ-R50 MD for taping, and unfortunately it doesn't have a digital line out, so (again: at present) for sampling the stuff into the computer, I have to make use of the D/A -> A/D circuitry (hence my desire for using as good an ADAC design as possible, within the bounds of the computers I currently have).
3-When combining the two points above, what it winds down to, is that what I am looking for, is finding a way to be able to either digitally read out the MD data directly, and use that rather than using the ADAC circuitry, or to acquire a low-cost yet very good sound board for sampling the music. Are there any (preferrably) low-cost options for this (like specific MD decks, that feature a digital out and/or USB 2.0 and/or Firewire 400/800 port)?

I hope anyone has an insight into this, and/or the initial question(s) asked about just how well the ADAC circuitry has been designed (esp. since a laptop design is typically optimised towards small size, and we are speaking about a system with lots of parts using VERY high frequencies, so lots of digital chatter on the lines)...

Tnx again, and with any luck, some further answers/questions to the above points will quickly help me on my way.

Cheers!
MM

[mysterymadman]

Hi again,

I'm currently starting my evaluation process of good OS-X software for audio editing. As a start, I just d/l-ed a trial version of Wave Editor. The aspect that looks very promising to me, is the fact that it uses layers! I am very inclined to also give some of the other mentioned packages a go, if they have significant additional advantages.

What I tend to do most often [in Sony's Soundforge 8] is (a combination of one or more of) the following:
-Sample into the machine.
-Manually and/or by automatic filters get rid of clipping and/or other undesirable loud peaks.
-Real-time looping through a graphic equaliser, allowing adjustments on the fly (very important for me!).
-Easy zoom in/zoom out functionality.
-Normalisation (incl. detecting RMS and peak volumes).
-Soft limiting (I hardly use this, but it can be handy).
-Tweaking the dynamics, etc.
-Using the 'Wave hammer' function.
-Interpolating "off" peaks and valleys.
-Possibility of using additional filters (VST, etc.?).

Is there any Mac user here who can give a good recommendation (as a reply here, or by PM) as to which of the programs would come closest to offering such functionality?

Tnx again, and cheers!
MM

PS: From what I've seen, Wave Editor looks very nice, but I have yet to get really into it. 

[Sebastian]

Anyone ever tried Ardour?

[nic]

Anyone ever tried Ardour?

isnt Ardour Linux only?
I guess it could work via Fink/Darwin Ports though....but then you would have to use X11.

mysterymadman,
it looks like would need something along of the lines of Logic, Cubase, DP, etc
Cubase (LE) would probably be the best option considering the budget needs you stated as you can often get it free with various external interfaces (like M-Audio, Presonus, etc) BUT, I dont know if it is "universal" yet.

[Sebastian]

isnt Ardour Linux only?

They have a Universal package for download, so I guess there's an OS X port.

[nic]

isnt Ardour Linux only?

They have a Universal package for download, so I guess there's an OS X port.

cool...I hadnt looked at Ardour in years.
may have to try it out on my Powerbook.

[Sebastian]

cool...I hadnt looked at Ardour in years.
may have to try it out on my Powerbook.

Let me know what you think.

[wbrisette]

What I tend to do most often [in Sony's Soundforge 8] is (a combination of one or more of) the following:

As related to Wave Editor, I'll take these one at a time.

-Sample into the machine. [yes, this is pretty much a no-brainer]

-Manually and/or by automatic filters get rid of clipping and/or other undesirable loud peaks. [Hmmmm, I don't ever think I've seen anything that gets "rid" of clippiing. You can use various limiters and such to make them less annoying, but you don't ever fully get rid of a signal you've clipped.]

-Real-time looping through a graphic equaliser, allowing adjustments on the fly (very important for me!). [you can setup loops, but I'll have to see if there are any built-in EQ functions. I use Waves plug-ins, so I never have issues with EQ, but these weren't free.]

-Easy zoom in/zoom out functionality. [This is one of the things that sold me on W.E. over Bias' Peak which I had been using. It quite simply is one of the fastest products I have ever used in zooming in and out.]

-Normalisation (incl. detecting RMS and peak volumes). 
-Soft limiting (I hardly use this, but it can be handy).
-Tweaking the dynamics, etc.  [I'll group all three of these since again, I'm unsure of what the basic options are for W.E. since I use Wave's products for all of these features. You can turn on the setting to view the automatic RMS or Peak volumes. Is that what you meant?]


-Using the 'Wave hammer' function. [WTF is this??? I've never heard of wave hammer.]

-Interpolating "off" peaks and valleys.
-Possibility of using additional filters (VST, etc.?). [I'll group these since both can be done by W.E.]


In all honesty, most of the larger applications (Peak, Wave Editor, Logic, DP, etc.) can do this, it's all a matter of money. As far as bang for your buck, I think W.E. wins. I own all four of the applications I mentioned, and neither Peak or Logic will ever get updated again. Digital Performer does everything I need when dealing with multi-track files, and Wave Editor has become my tool of choice when it comes to two channel editing. They have a new release coming out soon which they claim will fix a few of my complaints and allow you to burn a playlist from within W.E., so you can build everything you need in one application. I really like that option. They also will support DDP in the next release, so if you ever need to send your stuff to a mastering house, you can use W.E. and not have to resort to Peak with the extra $300 DDP option.

Anyhow, having used several of the sound editing packages out there, I would say most will fit your needs. Each has their own way of handling things, so your work flow might have to change a bit, but overall I think any of them will suit your needs.

Wayne

[nic]

wayne, 'wavehammer' is the built in SoundForge compressor.

Peak will not be updated?
I thought I heard that Logic was being rewritten/rebranded...

[wbrisette]

wayne, 'wavehammer' is the built in SoundForge compressor.

Peak will not be updated?
I thought I heard that Logic was being rewritten/rebranded...

Peak will be updated, I just won't be updating it again. I think W.E. is that much better than Peak and it is less expensive.

I hadn't heard that about Logic. But really it hasn't been the same since Apple took it over.

Wayne