Taperssection.com
Gear / Technical Help => Recording Gear => Topic started by: Rick on July 14, 2008, 08:42:08 AM
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Continued from http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,103270.0.html
Team R-44 >> http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,106140.0.html
when I record one minute from a CD into the R-44 via spdif, then rip that CD into my DAW and invert it against the R-44, I get silence - the spdif recording is bit-accurate.
For proof here's the readout from Audition for the mixdown of the two files, one inverted against the other -
Left Right
Min Sample Value: 0 0
Max Sample Value: 0 0
Peak Amplitude: -inf dB -inf dB
Possibly Clipped: 0 0
DC Offset: 0 0
Minimum RMS Power: -inf dB -inf dB
Maximum RMS Power: -inf dB -inf dB
Average RMS Power: -inf dB -inf dB
Total RMS Power: -inf dB -inf dB
Actual Bit Depth: float
Using RMS Window of 50 ms
Eureka! Sorry for the scare last night. Never do stuff late.
Mod R-44? You Bet!
http://oade.com/digital_recorders/hard_disc_recorders/R44_upgrades.html
http://www.busmanaudio.com/mods.html
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Checking part 3....carry on.
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Checking part 3....carry on.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/leehookem21/Topaz2008-07-11/P1070247.jpg)
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two issues I have recently encountered with my R44 which I use for recordig music and location sound for film (very satisfied so far):
1 wherever I plug it to a computer via USB, I never seem to get USB 2.0-like speeds, rather exactly like USB 1.1. In the same ports if I plug my USB 2.0 data stick, the same files transfer much faster. Tried PCs and Macs- same result.
2 I had a power supply cable made that connects my 12 V NP1 battery from my 4 channel mixer to the R44. When I connect it and put the power supply in the menu to either 9 or 12 V (or any other of the given options), my R44 say "batteries low" and shuts down soon after. The cable plug has the correct polarity.
I'd appreciate any helpful advice, as always :)
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Yes, transfer speed direct from the R-44 is slower than you'd expect. I don't think it's as slow as USB1 however. As the only time I have had an SDHC card fail was somewhere in the process of taking it out of the R-44 and putting it into a card reader, I now tend to do a transfer with the card in the R-44, and if that takes a little longer than via a card reader, well, it's not often those minutes would make a difference.
If you have a 12 volt battery, and set the R-44 to 9 volts, when the battery voltage goes down to or close to 9v it will assume the battery is about to go flat. I can only think that the battery isn't maintaining enough voltage under load to convince the R-44 that all is well.
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The description for the "Control Sync Jack" on the R-44 says "Word clock sync and start/stop remote control of 2 units". That makes me wonder if if it's possible to hack a cable to make this be just word clock out to some other device. Anyone taken a look at what data is coming out of that jack? My assumption is that standard signaling for "word clock" is probably being observed (whatever that might be) + some command/control for the slaved device. Could it be as simple as wiring it up the proper cable to only transmit what a second device needing "word clock in" would expect...leaving command/control wires going nowhere? Probably a long shot...but, possible?
--Michael
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2 I had a power supply cable made that connects my 12 V NP1 battery from my 4 channel mixer to the R44. When I connect it and put the power supply in the menu to either 9 or 12 V (or any other of the given options), my R44 say "batteries low" and shuts down soon after. The cable plug has the correct polarity.
Do you connect this NP1 battery directly or through the mixer's output feed? If the latter, then the mixer might be feeding less current than the R44 needs.
Have you fed any other battery or supply through that socket into the R44?
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2 I had a power supply cable made that connects my 12 V NP1 battery from my 4 channel mixer to the R44. When I connect it and put the power supply in the menu to either 9 or 12 V (or any other of the given options), my R44 say "batteries low" and shuts down soon after. The cable plug has the correct polarity.
Do you connect this NP1 battery directly or through the mixer's output feed? If the latter, then the mixer might be feeding less current than the R44 needs.
Have you fed any other battery or supply through that socket into the R44?
I feed it from a direct output, though the NP1 batt is fixed mounted on the mixer. I have fed a wireless receiver that usually runs on 9V batteries without problems. My slight guess is that the voltage the mixer gives out is enough to feed the R44, but maybe not enough to convince it it's enough, if you know what I mean.
What USB speed do others have? All of you have slow R44s???
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My slight guess is that the voltage the mixer gives out is enough to feed the R44, but maybe not enough to convince it it's enough, if you know what I mean
The guess might be wrong. The mixer should specify how much current can it feed.
IMHO there's a bottleneck there. It's not the R44's fault probably.
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My slight guess is that the voltage the mixer gives out is enough to feed the R44, but maybe not enough to convince it it's enough, if you know what I mean
The guess might be wrong. The mixer should specify how much current can it feed.
IMHO there's a bottleneck there. It's not the R44's fault probably.
To specfy my guess, I guess (huh) that the reason is that my NP1 is NiMH, and my charger being a NiCd charger, it doesnt fully charge the battery, though still full enough to run my mixer with all four channels phantom power on for more than 24 consecutive hours. So maybe the voltage is just below 9 V, thus too little to be approved by the R44 as valid power source. Does this make any sense?
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To specfy my guess, I guess (huh) that the reason is that my NP1 is NiMH, and my charger being a NiCd charger, it doesnt fully charge the battery, though still full enough to run my mixer with all four channels phantom power on for more than 24 consecutive hours. So maybe the voltage is just below 9 V, thus too little to be approved by the R44 as valid power source. Does this make any sense?
It doesn't really make sense, because AFAIK most NiCd chargers will charge NiMHs alright. Except if the charger is too cheap, which probably is not your case. What does the charger specify as its charging voltage? Is it an intelligent charger?
NP1 batteries are at least 12v, and they can't hold voltage below 9v. In fact you shouldn't use a 12v battery below 10v, or 1v per element, or you will damage it.
So do check what voltage and current will your mixer output. It may feed just a few milliamps, which won't do with the R44. Just now did I have a look at the R4-Pro manual (which is the one I'm thinking of buying) and it demands 2 amps, which shouldn't be much different in the R44.
To be sure of the actual consumption you should connect a DMM in line with the R44 and the power source, battery or not. Then you should precisely know what you are dealing with, instead of just guessing. ;D
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Yeah, my USB is painfully slow compared to my old R4, but OMG the R44 rocks, lol.
Heh...
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Yeah, my USB is painfully slow compared to my old R4, but OMG the R44 rocks, lol.
Mmmmm....sexy. ;D
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What Lowepro bag is that?
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Yeah, my USB is painfully slow compared to my old R4, but OMG the R44 rocks, lol.
Heh...
Painfully slow is dat transfer. :P It can always be worse.
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Sonidista,
Apparently you are you using your R44 recorder for film or video jobs, right? Don't they require time coded recordings?
I ask that because I am intending to buy a recorder with such jobs in mind, and the R4 Pro is one I am considering, as it has TC capabilities.
In my case I would go in with Shure FP33 audio, which should be quieter than the internal mic preamps. Though location ambient noise is probably greater than the Edirol noise can put in,
One thing I am concerned about is how to deliver the recordings to the client, and I don't think you can output files directly from R4 or R44 to a CD or DVD recorder, can you? From what I see on the manual you have to go through a computer.
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Hey Carlos:
As per R44 manual, it draws 1.2 amps. And no, you can't file transfer from R44 to another device, but you can stream digital s/pdif out to a a device with s/pdif input (i.e. it's digital but it's real time).
Peace,
Sanaka
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Hey Carlos:
As per R44 manual, it draws 1.2 amps.
The data I had was from r4 pro manual. It was 2A. Maybe it's different on r44.
And no, you can't file transfer from R44 to another device, but you can stream digital s/pdif out to a a device with s/pdif input (i.e. it's digital but it's real time)
Then it's better to use computer for download.
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Sonidista,
Apparently you are you using your R44 recorder for film or video jobs, right? Don't they require time coded recordings?
I ask that because I am intending to buy a recorder with such jobs in mind, and the R4 Pro is one I am considering, as it has TC capabilities.
In my case I would go in with Shure FP33 audio, which should be quieter than the internal mic preamps. Though location ambient noise is probably greater than the Edirol noise can put in,
One thing I am concerned about is how to deliver the recordings to the client, and I don't think you can output files directly from R4 or R44 to a CD or DVD recorder, can you? From what I see on the manual you have to go through a computer.
Carlos,
true. Projects that use TC in my book are only the very high end. I have worked on high budget 35 mm shoots and they didn't want to use TC. Remember that all three components, audio recorder, camera and editing suite, have to support TC. So according to my work experience I decided to buy the R-44.
Maybe ask Edirol if they're planning to make a R-44 Pro anytime soon, since the R-44 virtually replaces the old R-4, and the R4Pro is a ship of a recorder.
So it really depends form the kind of jobs you do, and if the majority does require TC. In my case, if someone wants TC, I will rent a SD 744T for the job.
The good old slate still is the safest solution to me and will never die.
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true. Projects that use TC in my book are only the very high end. I have worked on high budget 35 mm shoots and they didn't want to use TC.
What country do you live in? I live in Brazil even if I made my first years in the film business in Argentina, a long time ago. In those days we used Nagra and Uher machines for location audio.
In the early '90s I started an audio rental business in both countries, now only in Rio. So I have most of the equipment except recorder, which I never got requests for except in the early DAT days.
So it's the only piece I don't have now that I want to restart doing location audio.
Remember that all three components, audio recorder, camera and editing suite, have to support TC.
Particularly in Argentina there seems to be very few people using TC, but I am not too sure why. In Brazil is very much used. My Denecke TC slates go out all the time.
So according to my work experience I decided to buy the R-44.
What do you deliver to your clients? A CD copy?
Maybe ask Edirol if they're planning to make a R-44 Pro anytime soon, since the R-44 virtually replaces the old R-4, and the R4Pro is a ship of a recorder.
AFAIK the Edirol R4 Pro is the latest version and the R44 is that model without the TC capability. I don't think there will be a new model.
So it really depends form the kind of jobs you do, and if the majority does require TC. In my case, if someone wants TC, I will rent a SD 744T for the job.
I will have buy a TC capable recorder, even if it's the Tascam, which you have to input a TC signal. As I already have a Denecke TC generator, then I can use it. But having 4 channels and TC is even more interesting. So I'd be willing to go for the R4 pro.
The good old slate still is the safest solution to me and will never die.
Yes and no. It will soon die, when all equipment is TC capable, and we are now very close to it. Many DV and HDV cameras can output an SMPTE or mide TC signal, so you can jam that to the TC generator.
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What Lowepro bag is that?
anybody, Bueller?
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Just by the size and the few of many models I've seen personally, it looks similar to the Apex or Rezo series Lowepros. Lowepro's site does not have a search function that allows you to enter the size you want and it returns bags with those dimensions. I know the Fry's around Dallas carry a few different models of the Apex and Rezo series cases. Check a local Fry's or look on lowepro.com for a retailer near you. A camera store that carries Lowepro may have POS/tech lit that isn't available on the website that lists dimensions of all their products.
or try PMing baytayntd
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AFAIK the Edirol R4 Pro is the latest version and the R44 is that model without the TC capability.
The recently released R-44 writes to SDHC media and is much smaller than the R4 Pro. It is said that it uses the same mic preamp.
I don't think there will be a new model.
Not of the R4 series, but I can imagine an R-44 Pro with timecode and full monitoring!
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or try PMing baytayntd
already did. no response yet.
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The recently released R-44 writes to SDHC media and is much smaller than the R4 Pro. It is said that it uses the same mic preamp.
Now I realize one thing I didn't perceive before.
The R4 Pro records to an internal 80GB drive or to an external USB device, like a memory-stick I guess. It doesn't have internal CF card capability, and I am interested in a recorder that does have that.
Size is a bit larger on the R4 Pro and weight is probably a bit more too.
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true. Projects that use TC in my book are only the very high end. I have worked on high budget 35 mm shoots and they didn't want to use TC.
What country do you live in? I live in Brazil even if I made my first years in the film business in Argentina, a long time ago. In those days we used Nagra and Uher machines for location audio.
In the early '90s I started an audio rental business in both countries, now only in Rio. So I have most of the equipment except recorder, which I never got requests for except in the early DAT days.
So it's the only piece I don't have now that I want to restart doing location audio.
Remember that all three components, audio recorder, camera and editing suite, have to support TC.
Particularly in Argentina there seems to be very few people using TC, but I am not too sure why. In Brazil is very much used. My Denecke TC slates go out all the time.
So according to my work experience I decided to buy the R-44.
What do you deliver to your clients? A CD copy?
Maybe ask Edirol if they're planning to make a R-44 Pro anytime soon, since the R-44 virtually replaces the old R-4, and the R4Pro is a ship of a recorder.
AFAIK the Edirol R4 Pro is the latest version and the R44 is that model without the TC capability. I don't think there will be a new model.
So it really depends form the kind of jobs you do, and if the majority does require TC. In my case, if someone wants TC, I will rent a SD 744T for the job.
I will have buy a TC capable recorder, even if it's the Tascam, which you have to input a TC signal. As I already have a Denecke TC generator, then I can use it. But having 4 channels and TC is even more interesting. So I'd be willing to go for the R4 pro.
The good old slate still is the safest solution to me and will never die.
Yes and no. It will soon die, when all equipment is TC capable, and we are now very close to it. Many DV and HDV cameras can output an SMPTE or mide TC signal, so you can jam that to the TC generator.
I live and work in Germany. I deliver CD or DVD copies with the files. Its pretty easy. No big deal.
The R44 is much smaller than the R4(Pro). If you want TC and got the cash, I recommend you buy the Sound Devices 744T. Its much smaller (MUCH!) than the R4Pro and got great Preamps. Still great value for money.
Hey Oz, what a nice dream that is... R-44 Pro... sends nice time code shivers down my spine...
By the way I disagree on the death of slates theory. Its all zeros and ones, thus very vulnerable... what if a TC gets messed up somewhere in the process. Slates will always be the back hand option. Quick and dirty, too...
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I made a whole other post about this, but does anyone know what the gain is on the R44 mic preamps? I don't grok the "input level" spec., I just want to know by what factor the mic signal can be amplified, i.e. gain. Thanks!
Peace,
Sanaka
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What Lowepro bag is that?
It's a Lowepro "SlipLock Pouch 60AW". I found it at a Calumet store in SF, maybe you can get it through their website?
It should be said that this is bag fits the R44 perfectly with room for a DVD battery if needed, BUT... There's not a cm to spare and there are no extra pockets, none. Amazingly, as an AW, it actually does have a tiny self-contained built-in but hidden rain/beer cover.
I kind of look at this bag as the standard thing that's protecting my R44 at all times in any bag or on any shelf, etc. But depending on the gig, I may use a completely different bag. This bag REQUIRES right-angle XLRs (unless modded or something), I use those pigtails in the photos (which for the record I now wish were black, but I digress).
My typical use of this besides storage will be to throw it in a bigger messenger bag with even more crap, lol. And then at the venue, I can just lock and leave the recorder in this discreet bag. I had to poke a hole in the side of the bag to be able to use the lock, and I suppose it might be possible to mod the bag on both sides to be more like an audio bag. Although at that point, you'd be better off going with a PortaBrace.
Sorry it took so long to reply.
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What Lowepro bag is that?
It's a Lowepro "SlipLock Pouch 60AW". I found it at a Calumet store in SF, maybe you can get it through their website?
It should be said that this is bag fits the R44 perfectly with room for a DVD battery if needed, BUT... There's not a cm to spare and there are no extra pockets, none. Amazingly, as an AW, it actually does have a tiny self-contained built-in but hidden rain/beer cover.
I kind of look at this bag as the standard thing that's protecting my R44 at all times in any bag or on any shelf, etc. But depending on the gig, I may use a completely different bag. This bag REQUIRES right-angle XLRs (unless modded or something), I use those pigtails in the photos (which for the record I now wish were black, but I digress).
My typical use of this besides storage will be to throw it in a bigger messenger bag with even more crap, lol. And then at the venue, I can just lock and leave the recorder in this discreet bag. I had to poke a hole in the side of the bag to be able to use the lock, and I suppose it might be possible to mod the bag on both sides to be more like an audio bag. Although at that point, you'd be better off going with a PortaBrace.
Sorry it took so long to reply.
No worries. If I ever pull the trigger on the R44, that looks like a great bag to have. Perfect protection when putting into a larger bag and small and compact when running at a show.
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I made a whole other post about this, but does anyone know what the gain is on the R44 mic preamps? I don't grok the "input level" spec., I just want to know by what factor the mic signal can be amplified, i.e. gain. Thanks!
Peace,
Sanaka
Suggest someone send a 2-week loaner R-44 for bench testing the analog inputs so we all might know input noise, min/max input levels, and bandwidth performance.
Similar TS member/Sonic Studios customer loans have resulted in posted data for MR-1, R-09hr, LS-10 technical reviews now linked to TS thread discussions and review pages at top of my tips page at: www.sonicstudios.com/tips.htm (http://www.sonicstudios.com/tips.htm)
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I recorded an orchestral concert with the R-44 tonight (legit recording for radio) and I have to say it worked very well. Because no balance test was possible I had to wing it as far as levels were concerned but in the end "scored" -3dB max, using a Sennheiser MKH series MS pair, plus three spots (but of course only 2 at once!). And plus a Zoom H2 in the middle of the orchestra in 4 channel mode which if necessary I will have fun syncing with the rest - something of an experiment!
I'll see if I can find some really loud and really quiet bits and post a one-minute sample just from the main pair.
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I read in previous thread that the headphone amp is high quality in this unit. My question is does it have enough gain that you can use it during loud shows? IE: the UA-5 headphone gain is too low for it to be heard during a rock show, is the R-44 different(louder) or will I need a headphone amp? Thanx, kirk
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I have only used the headphones once, but it was plenty loud.
in other news I will be using it again for the second time tonight, as I have officially joined the team.
Oade Concert Mod R44!
:)
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I have only used the headphones once, but it was plenty loud.
in other news I will be using it again for the second time tonight, as I have officially joined the team.
Oade Concert Mod R44!
:)
Sweet Lee! +T
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thanks Rick! backatcha!
+T
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which card are you running Lee??
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Transcend. I run 24/48 Stereo X2 no issues.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820208293
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I have only used the headphones once, but it was plenty loud.
in other news I will be using it again for the second time tonight, as I have officially joined the team.
Oade Concert Mod R44!
:)
Thanx! Only days away from owning this unit!
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your gonna love it. I have used a stock R44 and a modded unit once each. mighty impressed with the both units.
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Transcend. I run 24/48 Stereo X2 no issues.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820208293
i got the same card. so far so good. i've run at 24/88.2 2x mono, 24/44.1 4x mono, and 24/44.1 2x mono.
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Here's a suggestion for a future firmware(?) update:
When recording to multiple files (2x mono and more) you get a folder that has the filename, and in the folder you get 1.wav and 2.wav. Now if I record many files and want to import them to protools or another DAW, there will be confusion upon many 1.wav and 2.wav files. So I suggest that the files within the folder also carry the folder's name befor the channel number in the end, such as recording001_1.wav
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Here's a suggestion for a future firmware(?) update:
When recording to multiple files (2x mono and more) you get a folder that has the filename, and in the folder you get 1.wav and 2.wav. Now if I record many files and want to import them to protools or another DAW, there will be confusion upon many 1.wav and 2.wav files. So I suggest that the files within the folder also carry the folder's name befor the channel number in the end, such as recording001_1.wav
i suggested this back in 2005 basically on my first day as an r4 owner. i agree, an excellent idea!
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If you keep the files in their folders, doesn't that keep the DAW happy? If it only goes by filenames and doesn't understand directories, seems like the DAW should be redesigned rather than the R-44. Certainly I've not encountered this problem with mine.
Edit - just checked in Audition and Reaper and neither have any problem opening files with the same name from different directories. Are you really saying Pro Tools can't cope with that? Good grief!
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Just wanted to say I stayed up 'til 3:30 reading parts 1 & 2 of this awesome thread. Getting my brain into "psychological ownership" of the R44 :o To get things going as far as actual physical ownership ;D
I'd be very interested in good analytical comparisons of stock vs. modded versions of this unit, as per Ozpeter's comments. Especially since there seems to be little potential for an ambient/nature mod (i.e. which actually boosts the gain while keeping noise down), which would pique my interest as opposed to a "flavor" mod.
Also, any analytical evidence of the "display noise" would be of interest. Perhaps just Doug's unit had this problem?
Keep up the good discussion and good recordings!
Peace,
Sanaka
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Also, any analytical evidence of the "display noise" would be of interest. Perhaps just Doug's unit had this problem?
Peace,
Sanaka
I have failed to find any evidence for any meaningful display (or other digital) noise in 2 units examined. Surely Doug would pre and post test units he is modding in order to verify his modifications are operating to spec?
digifish
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Here's a suggestion for a future firmware(?) update:
When recording to multiple files (2x mono and more) you get a folder that has the filename, and in the folder you get 1.wav and 2.wav. Now if I record many files and want to import them to protools or another DAW, there will be confusion upon many 1.wav and 2.wav files. So I suggest that the files within the folder also carry the folder's name befor the channel number in the end, such as recording001_1.wav
I like the idea as I often rename the files myself (although I think I still would cause I like having the band name and date in the source filenames). That said, my NLE of choice (Vegas) has no problems using the same filenames in different folders.
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I should have a sample posted later today of Papa Grows Funk from Friday. 50/50 matrix and AKG 483 only.
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I just like this thread so I'm bumping it up :D
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Plus, this my TS post #49. One more and I can hand out +Tickets! :D
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Here it is, #50! WooHoo! Big +T time for you homeys! :D
Peace,
Sanaka
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I should have a sample posted later today of Papa Grows Funk from Friday. 50/50 matrix and AKG 483 only.
how'd it turn out?
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uploading a matrix track now. sounds great. John let me get a soundboard feed for a matrix. I haven't messed with the AKG only source yet.
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<a href='http://www.sendspace.com/file/85vzdc'>http://www.sendspace.com/file/85vzdc</a>
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<a href='http://www.sendspace.com/file/85vzdc'>http://www.sendspace.com/file/85vzdc</a>
sounds good, Lee.
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.
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<a href='http://www.sendspace.com/file/85vzdc'>http://www.sendspace.com/file/85vzdc</a>
that sounds fantastic :coolguy:
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thanks guys. I am working on the mic only first set right now.
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uploading a matrix track now. sounds great. John let me get a soundboard feed for a matrix. I haven't messed with the AKG only source yet.
Good to hear I'm hoping for the same thing saturday!
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Oade Concert mod ordered ;D
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My pull of PGF's opening song from 8/8/8 in Santa Cruz 140's ORTF > V3 > R-44.
No board needed. :P
http://www.sendspace.com/file/iir17p
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Quick question that I really should already know the answer to, but I just don't know for sure, and couldn't find a specific answer in the earlier threads. I also checked the manual, but it wasn't exactly clear...
I'm likely getting a board feed for a matrix tonight where I'll be getting xlr outs from the sbd...will using balanced TRS connectors be considered line in, or is it preferable to use TS unbalanced connections?
I've run a few matrix's with the r-44 already but I sent the board through my ua5 just to have some adjustability with that signal, but that is one more piece of gear to lug when it really may not be needed.
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If this R-44 review has been linked before I missed it - it's from the July "AudioMedia" online magazine.
http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/newbay/audiomedia_200807/index.php?startid=56
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If this R-44 review has been linked before I missed it - it's from the July "AudioMedia" online magazine.
http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/newbay/audiomedia_200807/index.php?startid=56
+T new I think.
digifish
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Does anyone know what form factor/part# of (preamp) chips are stock on this unit?
Richard
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Does anyone know if the R44 will accept the 16 or 32GB SDHC cards available or is it limited to just the 8GB cards?
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Does anyone know if the R44 will accept the 16 or 32GB SDHC cards available or is it limited to just the 8GB cards?
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,103270.msg1421074.html#msg1421074
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Thanks +T!
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Costco has been selling a 32GB Class 4 card that is only $120. IT is the same PNY HD Video card that is the 16GB one that Louie and I use just fine. I have been awfully tempted to get one for festival use.
http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11296461&whse=BC&topnav=&browse=&lang=en-US&s=1
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great price for the card...sure would like to know if it can handle 4 X 1 recording...let us know if you get one....
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Got permission to release part of what was my first outing with my Oade R44 a few weeks back. But be forewarned, it's not a recording for the "purists" out there, lol, but it gives you an idea of the potential of this sweet little box, heh. You can listen to a couple of MP3 samples from the top post on my website now (see sig). Some sick jazz BTW at what turned out to be one of the last shows at Jazz at Pearl's in North Beach (SF) before they closed for good this time.
Source was:
2xAKG481+6db (DIN 6' high, center of brass section on right) > R44 (at 10:30 outer / 0 inner) > 2xWAV(24/44.1)
C4 (inside piano in back left of room) > R44 (at 1:30 outer / 0 inner) > WAV(24/44.1)
C4 (pointed at guitar and bass amps way on left) > R44 (at 12:00 outer / 0 inner) > WAV(24/44.1)
Mix/Mastering: Vegas 8 > Waves VST > WAV(16/44.1) > MP3(LAME-VBR4)
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Just linking in a comparison of the R44, R09HR and R09 internal mic preamps with external mics...
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,109081.msg1456339.html#msg1456339
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I just got this from Roland Japan, the information should be uploaded to the Roland site in September
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The following SD CARDs have been added as COMPATIBLE SD CARD.
COMPATIBLE SD CARD:
Panasonic RP-SDV32GL1K 32GB(6)
Panasonic RP-SDV16GL1K 16GB(6)
Panasonic RP-SDM16GL1K 16GB(4)
Panasonic RP-SDV08GL1K 8GB(6)
Panasonic RP-SDM08GL1K 8GB(4)
Panasonic RP-SDV04GL1K 4GB(6)
Panasonic RP-SDM04GL1K 4GB(4)
Panasonic RP-SDV02GL1A 2GB(6)
Panasonic RP-SDM02GL1A 2GB(4)
Panasonic RP-SDV01GL1A 1GB(6)
Panasonic RP-SDM01GL1A 1GB(4)
SanDisk SDSDH-016G-J61 16GB(4)
SanDisk SDSDRX3-8192-903 8GB(6)
SanDisk SDSDH-008G-J61 8GB(4)
SanDisk SDSDB-8192-J95 8GB(2)
SanDisk SDSDRX3-4096-903 4GB(6)
SanDisk SDSDH-004G-J61 4GB(4)
SanDisk SDSDB-4096-J95 4GB(2)
SanDisk SDSDH-002G-J61 2GB(4)
SanDisk SDSDX3-002G-J21 2GB(6)
SanDisk SDSDX3-2048-903 2GB
SanDisk SDSDB-2048-J95 2GB(2)
SanDisk SDSDX3-1024-903 1GB
SanDisk SDSDB-1024-J95 1GB(2)
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If the numbers in brackets are class ratings, the list more or less implies that any reputable card should work.
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If the numbers in brackets are class ratings, the list more or less implies that any reputable card should work.
Yes they are class ratings.
digifish
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If the numbers in brackets are class ratings, the list more or less implies that any reputable card should work.
Except that hasn't been the experience by some ppl here. Seems like depending on the specific card, YMMV. So, I'd personally stick with cards on that list, or cards that are known to work. Otherwise, there is a (slim) chance you'll end up with a card that doesn't work. Seems like most of the problem cards have been 16 gig +
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Received my mod R44 last night and have to say I like it. Gonna take a little time to get used to the levels, themetering on the 744 was much easier on the eyes.
The question I have today is around external power. I bought a 9V DVD battery but can't seem to get the R44 to power up using it. Is there a setting I'm missing? I changed the voltage in the menu to 9V and to external. The battery I bought didn't have options for polarity with the connectors...does anyone use this battery and do I need to buy an adapter to fix polarity? I didn't see anythiong in the instructions one way or the other with the battery.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/480307-REG/Impact_BPD8000_BPD_8000_Universal_Portable_Li_Ion.html
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The R-44 is center pin negative.
Go to Radioshack and buy an adaptaplug. M and B tips and cable.
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2049698&cp=&sr=1&kw=adaptaplug&origkw=adaptaplug&parentPage=search
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Anyone upgrade to the new operating system 1.03?
http://www.edirol.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=29&Itemid=391
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No change log?
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Thanks for the heads-up! Things it really should fix are the slow transfer speed and lack of any indication of digital level setting. I'll be the patsy and give it a try. If you see smoke rise from Australia you know it's best avoided...
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I did the update but can't spot anything changed, yet. Transfer speed remains slower than via a card reader, and there's no display of digital level - that's a pity.
Two things concerning the update - indeed it wipes your settings including name settings. And to get the current version display you press the LITTLE >| button with 'display', not the big one.
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I was wondering what some people thought about the r-44 compared to the HD-P2. I was thinking about getting one of these and selling my 2 HD-P2.
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No change log?
Fixes are
1. Issues of compatibility with SD Cards (new list should be up soon).
2. Counter digits might jump back for few seconds within few seconds of recording when Pre-Rec is activated.
3. Signals might be distorted by negative values set at the Graphic EQ.
4. Fixes incorrect frequency response by negative values set at MID of "3 Band EQ" in 88.2/96kHz sampling rate modes.
5. Compatibility improved with .WAV files made by LOGIC from Apple.
6. Now compatible with 4-ch surround or WaveFormatExtensible files made by applications such as SONAR from Cakewalk.
digifish
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Thanks for the info!
The other thing that needs fixing are the markers which only seem to work in Wavosaur.
And while I think of it - check through the effects settings carefully after the update - they seem to have some random "on" settings.
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Thanks for the info!
The other thing that needs fixing are the markers which only seem to work in Wavosaur.
And while I think of it - check through the effects settings carefully after the update - they seem to have some random "on" settings.
Not surprising given they have been messing about with the EQ/Effects code...will check mine pre/post update and if I concur will pass it back to Edirol.
EDIT: OK I updated but didn't find any settings that were on, what in particular did you find?
digifish
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I found - some. I just reset what I saw to "off" without considering taking any note. So all I can usefully say on the basis of my own experience is that checking may be worthwhile. But after such an operation I guess it would be prudent to check through all setups before the next serious recording anyway.
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As I don't have an R44 yet, those that do here might answer this query: can you navigate from take to take on a recording, to check on what you have just recorded or previous takes?
As I would be using it for film/video audio, I would need to check on that quite a lot.
Can you connect a keyboard to the R44 in order to write information on the take?
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As I don't have an R44 yet, those that do here might answer this query: can you navigate from take to take on a recording, to check on what you have just recorded or previous takes? As I would be using it for film/video audio, I would need to check on that quite a lot.
Yes, quite easily I might add, and from marker to marker in the same file too.
Can you connect a keyboard to the R44 in order to write information on the take?
No.
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Unfortunately though the markers are written in a non-standard way so that at the editing stage they may not appear in your DAW software. Note also that providing a balanced playback in terms of level is provided via a menu - though I believe the balance is reset if the R-44 is turned off - but you can't pan the four channels independently. You need an external monitor mixer for that.
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Can you connect a keyboard to the R44 in order to write information on the take?
No.
[/quote]
How do you write down letters to identify the files then, like scene, take, shot, etc.?
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The R-44 has a pretty good file naming scheme. You can either have files auto-name with full date and time details, or you can preset a filename pattern, like "Take" or "Scene" or whatever - the R-44 then numbers the files appropriately (take_001, take_002 etc etc).
From the manual -
"If there is only one channel, a monaural WAV file will be created with a name consisting
of the project name and a .wav extension
If there are 2–4 channels, a folder will be created with a name consisting of the project
name plus an extension of .pjt. In that folder, monaural WAV files will be created with
names consisting of the channel number and a .wav extension"
Here (FWIW) I have preset names as follows -
Rehearsal
Part One
Part Two
Test
Take
Then in recording setup you choose which preset name to use for the files or folders you are about to record.
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As one who does some double-system with my edirol units, another thing that is nice is that the file name is displayed on screen. So, although this may not be practical in your situation, I often "slate" the scene by filming the screen of the R44/R4 for a sec. By doing that, you'll have the filename (and approximate timecode if you're rolling one audio file) listed right in the video file -- comes in handy.
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Aha, that's the reason for the otherwise unnecessary figures in the timecode! Good scheme!
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I was wondering what some people thought about the r-44 compared to the HD-P2. I was thinking about getting one of these and selling my 2 HD-P2.
Just sold my P2 to fund the R-44. I really liked the P2. IF I already had two of them I don't think I would have sold them to buy the R-44. Hands down better metering on the Tascam. I do like the adjustable gain on the R-44. Maybe a slightly better stock A/D unit on the Tascam, not sure that I could hear the difference but that's what I've been told. It is smaller than the P2. Unless I was looking to down size my rig I think I would run two P2's sync one with the internal clock of the other and let 'em fly. Of course you could sell and put the leftover money into gettin the mods done to the R-44 making it an all in one that would be hard to beat. Hope that helps, Kirk
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As one who does some double-system with my edirol units,
What units are you using for double-system sound? Is it film or video? What sync routine are you using, clapper? Do you use TC?
another thing that is nice is that the file name is displayed on screen. So, although this may not be practical in your situation, I often "slate" the scene by filming the screen of the R44/R4 for a sec. By doing that, you'll have the filename (and approximate timecode if you're rolling one audio file) listed right in the video file -- comes in handy.
My guess is you are probably using smaller cameras for that, DV or HDV: is that so?
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I was wondering what some people thought about the r-44 compared to the HD-P2. I was thinking about getting one of these and selling my 2 HD-P2.
Just sold my P2 to fund the R-44. I really liked the P2. IF I already had two of them I don't think I would have sold them to buy the R-44. Hands down better metering on the Tascam. I do like the adjustable gain on the R-44. Maybe a slightly better stock A/D unit on the Tascam, not sure that I could hear the difference but that's what I've been told. It is smaller than the P2. Unless I was looking to down size my rig I think I would run two P2's sync one with the internal clock of the other and let 'em fly. Of course you could sell and put the leftover money into gettin the mods done to the R-44 making it an all in one that would be hard to beat. Hope that helps, Kirk
I already have one V2 that I use in front of one of the P2's. I was thinking about selling both P2's and getting a R-44 and another V2(or a mod).
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More practical questions on the R44. I was just looking at the Audiomedia review
(http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/newbay/audiomedia_200807/index.php?startid=56) and it say you can't save setups. That's one of the things that disturb me in my Sony MD RH10, so I wouldn't want to have a unit that can not save and keep a recording setup, even if I turn the unit off.
Will the R44 save a recording combo, like say 24/48, and leave that as my recording standard until I pick a new one?
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yes it will.
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Some units can save a variety of complete settings for different purposes - the R-44 can't do that, but does hold almost all settings when turned off. The exception that springs to mind is the playback level menu settings - I think the manual says they are volatile.
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R44 put to good use...
(http://www.digifishmusic.com/public/images/Freesound_PopcornRevisited.jpg)
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awesome!
sendspace? :lol:
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I was wondering what some people thought about the r-44 compared to the HD-P2. I was thinking about getting one of these and selling my 2 HD-P2.
Just sold my P2 to fund the R-44. I really liked the P2. IF I already had two of them I don't think I would have sold them to buy the R-44. Hands down better metering on the Tascam. I do like the adjustable gain on the R-44. Maybe a slightly better stock A/D unit on the Tascam, not sure that I could hear the difference but that's what I've been told. It is smaller than the P2. Unless I was looking to down size my rig I think I would run two P2's sync one with the internal clock of the other and let 'em fly. Of course you could sell and put the leftover money into gettin the mods done to the R-44 making it an all in one that would be hard to beat. Hope that helps, Kirk
I already have one V2 that I use in front of one of the P2's. I was thinking about selling both P2's and getting a R-44 and another V2(or a mod).
I'd think it would be a little out of pocket money involved if you were to get an R-44 and V2. Why not get V3 and run the digi in on the R-44? About the same money isn't it? That would be another difference between two P2's and one R-44 you could run digi in on two separate decks but only one stereo pair input on the R-44, cannot run digi in for four channels. Of course that is more to carry if it matters. The idea of a mod is pretty appealing too. And as small as the R-44 is, a modded box would make it real easy to lug around. Bussman does nice mods without having to but from him. Or Oade Bros. Even after selling my P2 I still have a fondness for it, and the way it worked, and layout. But, I am really digging the R-44 too. 4 tracks good box and great price make the difference in user features easy to accept.
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Anyone running a busman mod r-44?
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(http://www.digifishmusic.com/public/images/Freesound_PopcornRevisited.jpg)
awesome!
sendspace? :lol:
freesound...
http://www.freesound.org/samplesViewSingle.php?id=59712
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So can anyone recommend any reliable 16 or 32 gb sdhc cards. Also any good deals on them. I've been searching for the specific ones on the Edirol list and can't seem to find the Panasonic or Toshiba ones. Also the Sandisk I can not find the exact model they recommend. I will be running 24/96, not sure if that makes a difference as far as the reliability of the cards. Usually 2 channel but occasionally four channels. Looking forward to joining the R-44 team. ;D ;D
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The class 4 PNY cards that are made for HD video cameras seem to work well. I use the 16GB model and have not had problems at all. They also make a 32GB model that is on sale at Costco for $120. I would suggest trying that if you want to try a 32gb that should be reliable.
PNY 16gb (http://www.amazon.com/PNY-P-SDHC16G4-FS-Secure-Digital-High-Capacity/dp/B001518O24/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1223838484&sr=8-2)
PNY 32gb (http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11296461&whse=BC&topnav=&browse=&lang=en-US&s=1)
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The class 4 PNY cards that are made for HD video cameras seem to work well. I use the 16GB model and have not had problems at all. They also make a 32GB model that is on sale at Costco for $120. I would suggest trying that if you want to try a 32gb that should be reliable.
PNY 16gb (http://www.amazon.com/PNY-P-SDHC16G4-FS-Secure-Digital-High-Capacity/dp/B001518O24/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1223838484&sr=8-2)
PNY 32gb (http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11296461&whse=BC&topnav=&browse=&lang=en-US&s=1)
Thank you for the reply. +T
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Sound Devices user forums keeps a regular running list of prices and post a chart of xfer times. It is a useful site.
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Sound Devices user forums keeps a regular running list of prices and post a chart of xfer times. It is a useful site.
Yeah, but they won't tell you if it is known to work reliably in an R44 will they?
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Hi
Has anyone got there R44 apart? I took the 5 screws out from the bottom but the case wouldn't shift.
I want to see what they use for the gain stages and whether I could mod it.
Thanks
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Hi
Has anyone got there R44 apart? I took the 5 screws out from the bottom but the case wouldn't shift.
I want to see what they use for the gain stages and whether I could mod it.
Thanks
You're braver than I! Only time I take my gear apart is if I've got nothing to lose. So I'm wondering. Mod it how?
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Hi
Has anyone got there R44 apart? I took the 5 screws out from the bottom but the case wouldn't shift.
I want to see what they use for the gain stages and whether I could mod it.
Thanks
To start with it would be better to get a service manual first. Is it possible to get one from Edirol?
From what Busman and others are doing, apparently you can upgrade the input chips.
From the Edirol R-09HR mods on another topic there might be some improvements in the phantom power bypassing too, modifying the supply cap close to the input.
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R44 put to good use...
(http://www.digifishmusic.com/public/images/Freesound_PopcornRevisited.jpg)
Thanks for the excellent pic and a good laugh. I needed that tonight! :D
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The class 4 PNY cards that are made for HD video cameras seem to work well. I use the 16GB model and have not had problems at all. They also make a 32GB model that is on sale at Costco for $120. I would suggest trying that if you want to try a 32gb that should be reliable.
PNY 16gb (http://www.amazon.com/PNY-P-SDHC16G4-FS-Secure-Digital-High-Capacity/dp/B001518O24/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1223838484&sr=8-2)
PNY 32gb (http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11296461&whse=BC&topnav=&browse=&lang=en-US&s=1)
Have you tried them using the 4 X 1 recording mode....that seems to be the dividing line whether they will work or not....
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Sandisk 8gb HD Video SDSDHV-008G-A15
works fine 4x1 so far.
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So can anyone recommend any reliable 16 or 32 gb sdhc cards.
We're using the Transcend Class 6 16 GB cards here with an R-44/TetraMic setup. They seem to work fine, and for under $40 they're a good value.
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I came across this page of end-user R-44 reviews just now - includes some really bizarre "cons"! Really weird. One guy complaining that he can't fix it to a lighting stand, one says there's no gain control, another that he can't connect rca plugs to the line inputs... makes me feel like saying, "give it to someone who deserves it - you don't!"
http://www.buzzillions.com/dz_872117_edirol_r_44_solid_state_four_channel_reviews
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I came across this page of end-user R-44 reviews just now - includes some really bizarre "cons"! Really weird. One guy complaining that he can't fix it to a lighting stand, one says there's no gain control, another that he can't connect rca plugs to the line inputs... makes me feel like saying, "give it to someone who deserves it - you don't!"
http://www.buzzillions.com/dz_872117_edirol_r_44_solid_state_four_channel_reviews
Yes odd...what had me surprised more than anything was the £895 price to the left, ~$1400 USD, ouch :) Given it's a random review on a price comparison site I wouldn't be too worried what he said. About being deserving, well I can't comment I have been using mine to record popcorn making :)
digifish
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I came across this page of end-user R-44 reviews just now - includes some really bizarre "cons"! Really weird. One guy complaining that he can't fix it to a lighting stand, one says there's no gain control, another that he can't connect rca plugs to the line inputs... makes me feel like saying, "give it to someone who deserves it - you don't!"
http://www.buzzillions.com/dz_872117_edirol_r_44_solid_state_four_channel_reviews
Yes odd...what had me surprised more than anything was the £895 price to the left, ~$1400 USD, ouch :) Given it's a random review on a price comparison site I wouldn't be too worried what he said. About being deserving, well I can't comment I have been using mine to record popcorn making :)
digifish
Regardless of the hilarious review, I absolutely love mine. Best. Value. Evar.
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Hi all, just checking in as a new member of the R44 team. ;D Picked up a Oade mod R44 the other day, haven't even had the chance to run it yet.
I read though most of the R44 threads before I decided to buy, but I can't remember this and am too lazy to wade thru everything again -- do the typical walmart style li-ion batteries work in the R44? I've got a couple 9v wally li-ion batteries, but fully charged the R44 keeps flashing "low battery". The batteries are regulated to put out exactly 9v, and that is what my voltmeter reads, but I guess that exactly 9v the R44 thinks the battery is too low?
Just double-checking on other people's experiences, but it looks like it might be time to pick up some 9.6v NiMH packs.
Looks like a very cool little recorder, can't wait to get the power issue solved and find a show to go tape.
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Hi all, just checking in as a new member of the R44 team. ;D Picked up a Oade mod R44 the other day, haven't even had the chance to run it yet.
Glad to see that economy's being stimulated! If this place was a soap opera it would be called "As the Gear Turns" Hahaha.
Good luck with the new toy. 8)
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Hi all, just checking in as a new member of the R44 team. ;D Picked up a Oade mod R44 the other day, haven't even had the chance to run it yet.
I read though most of the R44 threads before I decided to buy, but I can't remember this and am too lazy to wade thru everything again -- do the typical walmart style li-ion batteries work in the R44? I've got a couple 9v wally li-ion batteries, but fully charged the R44 keeps flashing "low battery". The batteries are regulated to put out exactly 9v, and that is what my voltmeter reads, but I guess that exactly 9v the R44 thinks the battery is too low?
Just double-checking on other people's experiences, but it looks like it might be time to pick up some 9.6v NiMH packs.
Looks like a very cool little recorder, can't wait to get the power issue solved and find a show to go tape.
Set it as adapter instead of battery. I was a little freaked out when I had the same issue but alas it was ok. Ran it digi in for 10 hours and only used 2 bars on the wally battery.
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Ran it digi in for 10 hours and only used 2 bars on the wally battery.
24/48?
5400mah / 6000mah batt?
That's killer.
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Hi all, just checking in as a new member of the R44 team. ;D Picked up a Oade mod R44 the other day, haven't even had the chance to run it yet.
I read though most of the R44 threads before I decided to buy, but I can't remember this and am too lazy to wade thru everything again -- do the typical walmart style li-ion batteries work in the R44? I've got a couple 9v wally li-ion batteries, but fully charged the R44 keeps flashing "low battery". The batteries are regulated to put out exactly 9v, and that is what my voltmeter reads, but I guess that exactly 9v the R44 thinks the battery is too low?
Just double-checking on other people's experiences, but it looks like it might be time to pick up some 9.6v NiMH packs.
Looks like a very cool little recorder, can't wait to get the power issue solved and find a show to go tape.
Set it as adapter instead of battery. I was a little freaked out when I had the same issue but alas it was ok. Ran it digi in for 10 hours and only used 2 bars on the wally battery.
Thanks! +T in spirit. That did the trick, good to know I can keep using these batteries. Now to get out and use it.
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Hi all, just checking in as a new member of the R44 team. ;D Picked up a Oade mod R44 the other day, haven't even had the chance to run it yet.
I read though most of the R44 threads before I decided to buy, but I can't remember this and am too lazy to wade thru everything again -- do the typical walmart style li-ion batteries work in the R44? I've got a couple 9v wally li-ion batteries, but fully charged the R44 keeps flashing "low battery". The batteries are regulated to put out exactly 9v, and that is what my voltmeter reads, but I guess that exactly 9v the R44 thinks the battery is too low?
Just double-checking on other people's experiences, but it looks like it might be time to pick up some 9.6v NiMH packs.
Looks like a very cool little recorder, can't wait to get the power issue solved and find a show to go tape.
Set it as adapter instead of battery. I was a little freaked out when I had the same issue but alas it was ok. Ran it digi in for 10 hours and only used 2 bars on the wally battery.
Thanks! +T in spirit. That did the trick, good to know I can keep using these batteries. Now to get out and use it.
Just for the record, I also run this exact way (9v walmart batt running as "adapter"), and I get crazy long record times even with all the fancy lights lit up, lol. Even after four-five hours, I can come home and do the transfer off the same charge and STILL have two batt lights left.
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thats my experience as well, 4-5 hrs, plus a transfer at home (off of the wally batts).
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Ran it digi in for 10 hours and only used 2 bars on the wally battery.
24/48?
5400mah / 6000mah batt?
That's killer.
24/48 with a 6000 mah battery. I was shocked.
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are you guys getting the 4+hrs on 4 channels or 2?
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are you guys getting the 4+hrs on 4 channels or 2?
No problem with 6000mAh. Ran 4 channels for approx 9 hours straight and still had a light left on the batteries (Phantom off, headphones cranked). the same run time on my 5400 powering the UA-5 and I still had a light left on that too.
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I can go 4+ hours without blinking using four channels with phantom on, doing the transfer at home, and still have bar(s) to spare on the batt.
I actually (semi-permanently) gaff my walmart batt directly to my R44, LOL. Makes for a bad-arse long lasting yet small 4-chan phantom field recorder. I posted pics of my setup a few pages back:
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,107018.msg1431179.html#msg1431179
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got my new toy today!! I see the post above about wally record times but I'll ask anyway cause most of those are referring to 6000 version.
I have 5400 version. I'll be mostly doing digi in at 24/48. I know that is plenty of juice for the shows I do. when I do run 4 channels it'll be digi in and then sbd no phantom. what should I expect doing that? can't test that at home, no soundboard ;)
time to start reading.
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got my new toy today!! I see the post above about wally record times but I'll ask anyway cause most of those are referring to 6000 version.
I have 5400 version. I'll be mostly doing digi in at 24/48. I know that is plenty of juice for the shows I do. when I do run 4 channels it'll be digi in and then sbd no phantom. what should I expect doing that? can't test that at home, no soundboard ;)
time to start reading.
Your expectations should be limited to the ability to make some bad ass recordings. That is about it.
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can't test that at home, no soundboard ;)
Do you have some RCA > XLRs? You could record your stereo w/ mics and run RCA out of anything (i.e. same stereo, tape deck, what have you) and have that part act as the 'SBD'.
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Anybody run the R-44 at 24/96 x 4 or 24/192 x 4? If so what media?
Also if you are only going to run with an external pre-Amp does getting a modded R-44 make a difference? And do you have to use the TRS jacks when using an external pre (as you do with the R-4 - to bypass the internal pre's)?
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My Oade concert R-44 arrived yesterday! ;D Sure is a compact little thing, actually fits nicely in the bag for my Bose headphones.
Also if you are only going to run with an external pre-Amp does getting a modded R-44 make a difference? And do you have to use the TRS jacks when using an external pre (as you do with the R-4 - to bypass the internal pre's)?
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you can bypass the internal pres with the TRS jacks (I know you can't with the R-4). You'd have to go digi-in to do that. I don't think TRS vs. XLR makes any difference for the analog path.
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correct, can't bypass the pres.
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So can you run the R-44 with external Pre's or can they be disabled (i.e. through a mod)?
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I don't know of a mod that disables the pres, they mainly replace some of the stock analog circuitry with better components. You're either going to run through both the external and internal pres (presumably with the internal pres at low gain) or you need an outboard ADC as well as the preamp to run digi-in, basically using the R-44 as a bit-bucket. I think there are people here doing each.
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I'm not familiar with the stock R4Pro. Does the R4Pro sound better than the R44?
Can someone point me to samples comparing the two? (Yes, I'm lazy to look
throug the previous 500 posts in this thread.)
Flintstone
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easyjim runs a pro, maybe PM him for some thoughts
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It's been said - I think by someone from Edirol way back - that the R-44 preamps are the same as the R-4 Pro. Wasn't that on an exhibition video online somewhere??
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hey ho, new member of the team, just picked up an Oade R-44 and really digging it so far. i do, however, have a problem as Focker did below. I bought the same external battery from B&H, and also went to rat shack and per Lee's rec bought an adaptaplug cable plus the M and B adaptaplugs. Set the R-44 to adaptor and still...nothing. can't get this sucker to power on with a fully charged Impact 8000mah. Any ideas? Thanks.
Received my mod R44 last night and have to say I like it. Gonna take a little time to get used to the levels, themetering on the 744 was much easier on the eyes.
The question I have today is around external power. I bought a 9V DVD battery but can't seem to get the R44 to power up using it. Is there a setting I'm missing? I changed the voltage in the menu to 9V and to external. The battery I bought didn't have options for polarity with the connectors...does anyone use this battery and do I need to buy an adapter to fix polarity? I didn't see anythiong in the instructions one way or the other with the battery.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/480307-REG/Impact_BPD8000_BPD_8000_Universal_Portable_Li_Ion.html
The R-44 is center pin negative.
Go to Radioshack and buy an adaptaplug. M and B tips and cable.
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2049698&cp=&sr=1&kw=adaptaplug&origkw=adaptaplug&parentPage=search
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The tip on the M needs to be negative and the B needs to be positive.
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The tip on the M needs to be negative and the B needs to be positive.
hey Lee, thanks man. does one have to specify this (i.e. positive and negative) when at rat shack, or did i maybe plug the adaptaplugs in the wrong end of the cable or something? i'm clueless when it comes to this electrical stuff so pardon my ignorance! thanks again.
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I am so happy to say that I'm not as dumb as I think I am ;D
thanks Lee, i figured it out...just gotta look a little closer at the cable ends! it's working now so thanks again.
The tip on the M needs to be negative and the B needs to be positive.
hey Lee, thanks man. does one have to specify this (i.e. positive and negative) when at rat shack, or did i maybe plug the adaptaplugs in the wrong end of the cable or something? i'm clueless when it comes to this electrical stuff so pardon my ignorance! thanks again.
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Thought I would chime in here. I have had an oade mod R-44 for 4 months now and last week was the first time I ran mics without an external preamp. I taped The Brew Neumann U89> (OCM) R-44 and it came out great. Of course it sounds better with an external pre and a/d but I have no complaints with it as an all in one unit. Normally when I hear an all in one unit recording I feel like it's missing something but the this recording is well rounded, balanced, and sounds great.
Around here people have been talking about powering the deck. I use rechargeable batteries. They are cheeper, lighter, take up no space, and there is no way you can knock the battery cable out.
I use the edirol bag. It's not cheep but I think it's worth it. Very nice bag.
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I've never seen the Edirol bag for this unit. Now I'm curious...I'll have to check it out.
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well I said last page I'm a new member. haven't taped anything yet but did a DAT transfer for the hell of it last night.
damn this thing is small! I'm not a undercover guy but nice to know that the one or two shows a year where that would be necessary I can use this without the v3.
on that note I've read the stock pres are pretty good. any side by side comparisons with the busman mods? anyone know if he will only mod two channels? or if that would work? see no reason it wouldn't but i really have no clue.
reason I ask that is most of the time I'll be running as a bit bucket and every now and then using the other 2 for sbd. do the mods improve the "line in" ie sbd with no phantom? if so is it enough to consider doing the mods? 99% of the sbds will be used for matrix with my 140's.
another thing. I read a few pages back that the unit will create a folder for the files (even 1x stereo) and create multiple files for 4 channel. when I got done with the dat transfer I popped the card in my card reader and the file was there but there was no folder. just the icon for the "drive" (card reader) and when clicking on it there was my file. I would assume it keeps the 4 channel files separate?
edit: yet another question ;) mine came with a pny 16 gig card which I see many folks are using. are their 8 gig versions just as reliable? don't see why they wouldn't be but thought I'd ask.
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Just got mine back from the service people following its failure to work on external power. Some little fuse blew apparently, but it seems like it was the first problem to be encountered in Australia and it took a while for a service manual to arrive from (?) Japan.
They are cheeper, lighter, take up no space, and there is no way you can knock the battery cable out.
It does run well on quality rechargeables, but if you use them with an external power pack as well, if the battery cable comes out or the external battery runs down, it carries on using internal power as if nothing had happened.
any side by side comparisons with the busman mods?
Well, there's a couple of threads going with discussions of whether anyone can hear modded versions of another item right now... probably enough blood on the forum floor already! I think the general view is that you are unlikely to be able really to distinguish in blind tests the results from stock and modded machines, but if you feel happier with mods, go for it.
Of course it sounds better with an external pre and a/d
Well, for the reasons given in the preceding para I won't suggest someone proving the difference with some samples for blind testing - enough already! :)
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anyone using these??
PQI 8GB Secure Digital High Capacity (SDHC) Class 6
edit to say I used pqi compact flash with my P2 with no problems.
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I would like to get a modded R-44. I'm getting out of video and switching to just audio for awhile.
Which mod do people like better the oade's concert or bussman's transparent?
I'm mostly a >:D taper; not worried about the size. Does anyone else use their r-44 for >:D purposes? PM me please.
I would probably run it with some Nevaton MCE 400's (HRTF) and a pair of cards after I find something I like. Any suggestions.
-Trenton
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Which mod do people like better the oade's concert or bussman's transparent?
Perhaps the first thing to do is to identify what you don't like about the stock R-44 sound. Then identify which mod claims to fix the problem. If you just go on other people's preferences, then you'd have to hope that your taste in sound was the same as theirs. There have been no reports here of valid tests (either listening or bench tests) of these competing mods vs the stock device, so it's down to subjective personal opinions.
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So XMAS Jam was my first time running the R-44. I have to say I am very impressed with the stock pre. I was using Nak 300's with shotguns directly into the R-44. The sound is nice and clean, and warm. Just my two cents....I am going to hold off on any mods till I run it a few more times, before even thinking about a mod.
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i'm perfectly happy with the sound of my stock unit.
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So XMAS Jam was my first time running the R-44. I have to say I am very impressed with the stock pre. I was using Nak 300's with shotguns directly into the R-44. The sound is nice and clean, and warm. Just my two cents....I am going to hold off on any mods till I run it a few more times, before even thinking about a mod.
Nice to see the Nak shotguns still being ran. I'm almost thinking of keeping the ones I have up FS in the yard, just in case I ever want to run guns myself. Not that much money tied up in them, I just don't know if I want them sitting in a drawer most of their lives. lol
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So XMAS Jam was my first time running the R-44. I have to say I am very impressed with the stock pre. I was using Nak 300's with shotguns directly into the R-44. The sound is nice and clean, and warm. Just my two cents....I am going to hold off on any mods till I run it a few more times, before even thinking about a mod.
Nice to see the Nak shotguns still being ran. I'm almost thinking of keeping the ones I have up FS in the yard, just in case I ever want to run guns myself. Not that much money tied up in them, I just don't know if I want them sitting in a drawer most of their lives. lol
Love the Guns!!!!!
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Anyone using a San Disk Ultra II 16 gig? Santa brought me one, and just checking to see if this works or if I should return for a different one.
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Anyone using a San Disk Ultra II 16 gig? Santa brought me one, and just checking to see if this works or if I should return for a different one.
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,97893.msg1304350.html#msg1304350
it has a sandisk 16gb card listed with more detailed numbers you can see if it matches yours
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Outdoor people might be interested to hear that I used my R-44 for several hours at -11° Celsius with no problems at all. This baby just never lets me down...
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holy crap :o. what's that in Fahrenheit?
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holy crap :o. what's that in Fahrenheit?
Below freezing. ;) ...about 12deg F
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well right on Edirol :coolguy:
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Can someone point where to get or how to make a battery cable to fit the 9v Dvd battery? .... Also how long will the unit run on a sigle battery charge?
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Go to Radio Shack and pick up three things. An adapta-plug cable, a B tip, and a M tip. Done. Just remember that the R44 is center pin negative.
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Hi--just checking in. I bought an R-44 this afternoon, just got home, and am unpacking it now. I have a concert to record Friday night that'll need four microphones. My laptop computer setup for four-channel recording has been adequate but unwieldy, and it ties me to AC power, so I hope this thing will work.
The 8 GB SDHC card that I bought with the unit is from Lexar, but isn't on the lists I see posted here--in fact I can't find a model designation at all, unless "SD8GB-711" is it.
The only bench test I've made so far is to see whether it can light up four Schoeps PHS 48 phantom power testers simultaneously. The answer is no--three's the limit. So if I'm recording with four CMC-series microphones I'll have to use external phantom powering for two of them, which ain't the end of the world; alternatively I could use one pair of lower-current microphones along with a pair of CMC-series mikes.
--best regards
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You may need an external battery pack if you are not running on wall power.
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Do you know what current draw it takes to light up the PHS48 testers? I didn't think the CMC range drew that much power (not like Audix micros or earthworks). It's a bit disturbing to think the R44 can't adequately power 4 mics at once.
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I don't recall anyone else criticising the R-44 phantom power adequacy. This must represent a severe test.
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How many of us are running phantom powered four mics? Seems like a lot of the R-44 crowd is running two mics and maybe pulling the soundboard.
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Most of the time I use the R44, it is for running 4 mics. Occasionally I get the opportunity to get a board feed and run that with 2 mics. And I've been generally using my Sony D50 for 2ch work, and only run the R44 when I want to do 4ch. As I said, sometimes for sbd+mics, but more often with 4 mics. So far usually just to see which mic pair I prefer and not 4ch mic mixes, but I imagine I'll do that at times too.
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What I want to try one day is two mics at stage lip, one channel from the soundboard (its running mono anyway) and one mic pointing back at the audience. In post I can mix the soundboard channel and with the stage mics. Then take the audience track and mix it back in as needed for applause and the occasional pithy comment yelled at the band. That way I'll get a nice band recording but the applause wont sound like it is coming from so far away.
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How many of us are running phantom powered four mics? Seems like a lot of the R-44 crowd is running two mics and maybe pulling the soundboard.
Me, I have run 2 x NT1-A and 2 x AT3032 recently recording a piano, off batteries, no problems. I was only recording for 30 minutes, so I can't say anything about battery life under these conditions.
digifish
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How many of us are running phantom powered four mics? Seems like a lot of the R-44 crowd is running two mics and maybe pulling the soundboard.
Me, I have run 2 x NT1-A and 2 x AT3032 recently recording a piano, off batteries, no problems. I was only recording for 30 minutes, so I can't say anything about battery life under these conditions.
digifish
So would this produce less power or the same power than the mics mentioned above?
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How many of us are running phantom powered four mics? Seems like a lot of the R-44 crowd is running two mics and maybe pulling the soundboard.
I'm running two pres in front of mine so I can't really say. But I am shocked that the phantom fell short.
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The specifications for the R-44 give the combined limit for all four inputs as 20 mA. The PHS 48 nominally draws 4.5 mA, so four of them at once should draw about 18 mA combined--though they aren't precision instruments, so this is really only approximate.
It's even possible that the unit is just barely meeting its spec, though at the moment it doesn't quite look that way. Anyway I'll measure carefully later on and post the results. Some microphones draw more current than a Schoeps does, and people should realize that the available current is no more than what the spec sheet says.
I'm planning to record tomorrow night's concert with the first two channels fed via S/P-DIF from a Grace V3, which will power the main pair of mikes. The second pair of mikes will be needed only for the first half of the concert; I'll connect that pair directly to the recorder and power them from it. I think I should be OK that way.
--best regards
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So what happens if the load is exceeded? Presumably voltage drop below 48v which would be significant for some mics and perhaps not others.
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So what happens if the load is exceeded? Presumably voltage drop below 48v which would be significant for some mics and perhaps not others.
I don't imagine it would affect the voltage level of the phantom power -- it should still stay at 48v. The issue seems to be with how much current is available. With not enough current available, the mics will not get enough power which will lead to distortion increasing. Lack of available current for the microphone operation would be a problem for any mic, it wouldn't be the same as whether certain mics are more or less sensitive to getting exactly 48v of phantom.
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Also, good to know the spec is for 20ma of total current available for phantom power. When I got the R44, I thought I'd be using an external preamp on at least 2ch so I didn't much pay attention, but several times I find myself running 4 mics directly into the R44.
Hopefully it will provide the spec'd 20ma. It seems a lot of condensor mics use somewhere in the range of 2-4.5ma. IIRC, the audix m12xx micros use about 6.5ma which is somewhat high, and earthworks mics use 10ma, which is very high. My Milabs use 4ma per mic, and the MBHOs I just picked up use 4.5ma. So for me, even running 4ch of mics directly into the R44 shouldn't be a problem (again, if it provides the specified 20ma).
It is close enough though that if you plan to run 4 mics directly into the R44, you should find out the current draw of your mics (which unfortunately isn't always published).
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if the spec is exceeded the supply may overheat and fry.
Dsatz will know for sure, but even if the supply is regulated, and if the capacity is exceeded, my guess is that the voltage will indeed drop by some amount. IIRC when the capacity for supplying current reaches max, then as more demand is placed on the crkt, voltage drops. How this is effected by a regulator, I don't know?
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i have no idea how much power these pair of mics draw, but fwiw i have run a pair of DPA 4060's and a Schoeps CMXY4v stereo mic more than once into my R-44 without incident.
ymmv
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I'm planning to record tomorrow night's concert with the first two channels fed via S/P-DIF from a Grace V3, which will power the main pair of mikes. The second pair of mikes will be needed only for the first half of the concert; I'll connect that pair directly to the recorder and power them from it. I think I should be OK that way.
--best regards
From what I'm reading about available amperage I'd agree with you. The Digi & Analog in is how I am usually running mine too. I like running it this way and maybe it's just luck but seem to end up with the best results too. I wonder how that full load of amperage draw on the phantom circuit would affect battery life especially if you happened to be running AA's?
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Lets hope that they did it the sensible way ;)
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Just to answer a previous question, in general when too heavy a load is placed on a regulated power supply, its regulation stops being effective. The output falls below the intended voltage, and often there will be significant amounts of noise (hum and hash) riding on the DC output.
The spec in the manual for the R-44's phantom powering is 48 Volts +/- 4 Volts, 8 mA maximum per channel with 20 mA as the maximum total.
--I made my first recording with the R-44 tonight. It worked out well in the end, but I'm glad I had enough time to set up carefully before the concert and listen to some room tone. I had the weirdest experience I've ever had with RFI. I'm too tired to write it up right now, but it could really have been a problem if I hadn't eventually lucked into one physical positioning for each item (preamp battery, preamp/converter, recorder, and microphones) that stopped the buzz somehow. And I was running everything on batteries--there was no connection to any AC outlet.
I hope that isn't a recurrent problem, because I'd far rather record on the R-44 than on my laptop computer with a M Audio "Quattro Pro USB" interface (which is line-level only, and thus requires four outboard mike preamp channels as well).
--best regards
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Hey folks, long time no speak...
I've been loving my R44 for a while now, damn fine machine, heh...
But I've got a question I should probably already know the answer to, and it's probably buried in here somewhere, but I can't seem to find it, so sorry for the repetition.
I never use the limiter for music, but I'm going to be doing a bunch of interviews soon, and I was thinking about possibly using the limiter for some of the more unpredictable stuff.
So, has anyone figured out the definitive answers to these questions yet (on the R44):
1. Is the limiter analog?
2. What's the threshold?
3. What's the ratio?
Thanks in advance for any help...
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The R-44's limiter is analog and digital mixed like the R-4Pro. When you turn on the limiter, analog gain goes automatically -12dB down for prevention of digital distortion and after that passes through the digital limiter. After that the signal level goes +12dB back up again for matching total signal level.
The limiter threshold is -10 dB relative to digital full scale.
I had that from the mouth of the horse some time back.
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I had the weirdest experience I've ever had with RFI.
I had some strange noise happen when I was doing some experiments. I was running the R-44 and another device off the same battery pack, and noticed some weird noise issues. Then I noticed the R-44 was dead - its power input had fried, because the other device was, I think, sending extra volts out of its power input because it had its own battery installed. Thus the R-44 got more volts than it could handle.
Your problem could be quite different, but if you were using one power source for multiple devices, be careful!
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Just to nip this in the bud, no--I wasn't using one battery to power more than one device. The R-44 was running on four AA cells in its underbelly (I changed them during intermission), while the V3 was running on a separate rechargeable battery of its own.
The interference problem, if that's what it was, first appeared as a buzz in one channel of my stereo mike, which was plugged directly into channels 3 and 4 of the R-44, running from the R-44's internal phantom powering. I swapped the two XLR plugs and the buzz changed to the other channel, so I thought at first that either the mike (an older model which was recently overhauled) or the cable was defective. I found an odd way of looping and running the cable from that mike so that the noise was minimized, but it was still audible over headphones.
I promised some weirdness and here it is: I moved some of the stuff around (R-44, preamp, preamp battery and the respective cables between them), during which time I powered down the recorder. When I powered it back up again, suddenly the buzz was in channels 1 and 2, which were being fed into the recorder digitally from the outboard preamp/converter. Channels 3 and 4 were perfectly quiet; it was as if the poltergeist had simply moved over.
Eventually I moved the preamp/converter's battery, the preamp/converter and the R-44 as far apart from one another as their cables would allow, and at that point I no longer heard any buzz, and I left things that way for the whole concert.
--best regards
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The R-44's limiter is analog and digital mixed like the R-4Pro. When you turn on the limiter, analog gain goes automatically -12dB down for prevention of digital distortion and after that passes through the digital limiter. After that the signal level goes +12dB back up again for matching total signal level.
The limiter threshold is -10 dB relative to digital full scale.
I had that from the mouth of the horse some time back.
Ah, yes, now I remember some of this. So, unless I'm missing something here, this is basically pointless isn't it? I mean sure, it gives you 10 db more headroom, but hell, I can get that by turning down the gain myself. So, it seems like if you actually needed more than 10db of headroom, you'd end up still clipping before they even apply the digital limiter anyway, no? If true, that's just stupid, lol.
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Any limiter when recording should be used only as a longstop, not as an effect. So in this case, you'd set levels so that it looked unlikely that any peak would exceed -10dB (I think.....) But if you wanted to be quite sure, you'd then use the limiter to catch the totally unexpected. However, indeed you could alternatively back the input sensitivity down by two clicks (if available) and then digitally limit in your DAW afterwards - same difference.
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However, indeed you could alternatively back the input sensitivity down by two clicks (if available) and then digitally limit in your DAW afterwards - same difference.
That's my exact point, that with their system it seems COMPLETELY POINTLESS to do it in the recorder -- you absolutely get NOTHING out of doing in the recorder except to limit (pun intended) your options in post. I'm still not entirely sure that's true, but if so, my main point stands, LOL, that their limiter S-U-C-K-S, it basically isn't really a limiter IMHO. The limiter in my FP24, now that IS a limiter, this one is a complete joke. (Don't get me wrong, I LOVE my R44, just saying...)
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However, indeed you could alternatively back the input sensitivity down by two clicks (if available) and then digitally limit in your DAW afterwards - same difference.
That's my exact point, that with their system it seems COMPLETELY POINTLESS to do it in the recorder -- you absolutely get NOTHING out of doing in the recorder except to limit (pun intended) your options in post. I'm still not entirely sure that's true, but if so, my main point stands, LOL, that their limiter S-U-C-K-S, it basically isn't really a limiter IMHO. The limiter in my FP24, now that IS a limiter, this one is a complete joke. (Don't get me wrong, I LOVE my R44, just saying...)
Ummm, if you run 10 dB cool and then a spike bigger than that hits you, you're screwed either way. You have to add 10 dB of digital gain either way. So you get NOTHING more by running 10 dB cool and applying a limiter in post. So you don't lose any flexibility by running the limiter, and it saves you work in post.
I wouldn't use the limiter, but it seems like it has an obvious utility, really it doesn't seem like you should need more than 10 dB of safety anyway, so I think for some users this limiter is handy and saves them work in post, while a more sophisticated (ie expensive) limiter would be wasteful.
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Just to nip this in the bud, no--I wasn't using one battery to power more than one device. The R-44 was running on four AA cells in its underbelly (I changed them during intermission), while the V3 was running on a separate rechargeable battery of its own.
The interference problem, if that's what it was, first appeared as a buzz in one channel of my stereo mike, which was plugged directly into channels 3 and 4 of the R-44, running from the R-44's internal phantom powering. I swapped the two XLR plugs and the buzz changed to the other channel, so I thought at first that either the mike (an older model which was recently overhauled) or the cable was defective. I found an odd way of looping and running the cable from that mike so that the noise was minimized, but it was still audible over headphones.
I promised some weirdness and here it is: I moved some of the stuff around (R-44, preamp, preamp battery and the respective cables between them), during which time I powered down the recorder. When I powered it back up again, suddenly the buzz was in channels 1 and 2, which were being fed into the recorder digitally from the outboard preamp/converter. Channels 3 and 4 were perfectly quiet; it was as if the poltergeist had simply moved over.
Eventually I moved the preamp/converter's battery, the preamp/converter and the R-44 as far apart from one another as their cables would allow, and at that point I no longer heard any buzz, and I left things that way for the whole concert.
--best regards
It makes me wonder if Edirol has run into this on occasion seeing as the power supply and USB cable have chokes on them and they even provide one for the head phone cord. Maybe they have had RFI issues?
I had a weird experience with my R-44 this weekend with it jumping into pause during the show about 40 minutes in. It had showed levels at the beginning of the show but upon opening the wave it was flat lined for the whole 1st set. What makes it even weirder is that a friend running a 744 had some very strange issues with his deck too. His tracks lost sync and the shortly after the signal flat lined on all four channels. I was on battery he was on AC power. We have no idea what caused it. I do know that some of the light boards I've used you MUST turn your cell phone off or leave it very far away from the desk or else it can cause a reboot of the system. Maybe some strong RFI signal messed us up? And how does a 744 recording four track lose it's sync in the deck....very strange. Yet the seond set came out fine for both of us and we didn't do anything different.
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Hi--just checking in. I bought an R-44 this afternoon, just got home, and am unpacking it now. I have a concert to record Friday night that'll need four microphones. My laptop computer setup for four-channel recording has been adequate but unweildy, and it ties me to AC power, so I hope this thing will work.
The 8 GB SDHC card that I bought with the unit is from Lexar, but isn't on the lists I see posted here--in fact I can't find a model designation at all, unless "SD8GB-711" is it.
The only bench test I've made so far is to see whether it can light up four Schoeps PHS 48 phantom power testers simultaneously. The answer is no--three's the limit. So if I'm recording with four CMC-series microphones I'll have to use external phantom powering for two of them, which ain't the end of the world; alternatively I could use one pair of lower-current microphones along with a pair of CMC-series mikes.
--best regards
A few weeks ago we ran 4 sets of Schoeps all CMC6/mk21/mk22/mk4/mk41 directly into two R-44s for a comparison. No outboard gear. They both powered the four mics with no issues.
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So you don't lose any flexibility by running the limiter, and it saves you work in post.
Not sure I agree because anything above -10 db is now being "digitally limited," so once you're in post, you have a signal that's already been messed with. Now, that would be fine and all if you actually got some more headroom for it, in this case you get really no advantage except maybe not having to do it in post if you wanted to. Thing is then, at that point, for me personally, I'd rather not even bother limiting at all, and I'll just customize the compression as need in post. There's no headroom benefit, and it DOES leave an impact on anything recorded above -10 db. Now of course it does, because you turned the limiter on after all, right, that was the point, you wanted the limiter. But, since you get no real benefit in headroom, it just seems to me that at that point you'd be better off just turning it down two clicks yourself and doing everything else in post. Personally speaking, to me, that makes it kind of useless. Or maybe pointless is a better word. But again, maybe I'm missing something? Haven't heard anything yet that makes me think otherwise.
Also, I do feel that there are times in field recording, maybe not in audience recording so much (or at all), where having an analog limiter than can handle well more than 10db gracefully is a nice thing -- that is if you're actually able to use it to get your main signal up in level without the use of digital tricks.
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OK, here are some actual measurements. Open-circuit voltage with no mikes connected, 46.8 Volts. Connect one CMC 541 mike and the voltage at the unused input drops to 46.0 Volts. Connect a second CMC 541 mike and this drops another 0.8 Volts to 45.2 Volts, which is still just fine.
Add a CMC 58 (for double M/S, perhaps) and now the voltage on the unused input is 44.5, which as I've been saying is quite OK although it implies some small (ca. 200 Ohm) non-standard series resistance between the regulated supply and the phantom resistor pairs--though that low a value wouldn't give them much extra filtering of the DC or protection from inrush current, so it's hard to imagine the motive for it.
Anyway with another CMC 58 connected to the fourth input there are no more unused inputs, so if I unscrew the connector shell and measure across the terminals I get 31.2 Volts. Now 2 mA through a 6.8 kOhm resistor gives a 13.6-Volt drop while 2.5 mA gives 17 Volts. Since even the lower of the two figures doesn't quite add up to the 43.8-ish voltage I would expect, I have to suspect that the phantom resistors are lower in value than the nominal 6.8 kOhms. And potentially (no pun unintended) that could also be quite OK--the absolute tolerance is 20% as I recall, as long as the resistors are matched within each pair to within 0.4%.
So to me it still seems that as far as the microphones are concerned, this recorder's powering is a little below its own specifications. It's probably just barely OK for running four Schoeps CMC 5--s even though the supply by that point has fallen slightly below the official standard--but can the circuit put out nearly its maximum current for an indefinite length of time without risk of failure? Unless I can find out more, I'd have qualms about running this class of equipment that way on a steady basis.
I bought the $65 extra insurance policy and I suppose I could plug in four testers and leave the unit running for a week to see whether its power supply burns out or not, but if it does burn out and the insurance won't pay for a new one ... Main thing is, though, people with even higher-current microphones such as Shure KSMs, CAD Equiteks or Earthworks should continue to use outboard phantom supplies with this recorder.
--best regards
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R-44 Ver.1.03 System Program - downloadable for a long time from Edirol - but does anyone know what this firmware upgrade actually does? I've looked through all the R-44 threads here and I can't find a mention of it.
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--best regards
We have no idea what caused it. I do know that some of the light boards I've used you MUST turn your cell phone off or leave it very far away from the desk or else it can cause a reboot of the system. Maybe some strong RFI signal messed us up? And how does a 744 recording four track lose it's sync in the deck....very strange. Yet the seond set came out fine for both of us and we didn't do anything different.
Most likely completely unrelated, but your story reminded me of something. Once I was editing video in the field on a laptop with an external lacie hard disc connected via firewire. I left my mobile phone near the lacie. When the phone rang, the lacie shut down. I thought a fluke, but but being a spazz, later I left my phone again near the hard disc and again it rang and again the disc shut down (and of course I lost all my work)
Was a while ago, maybe technology has changed...
Bit of a thread jack, apologies. Back to R44 business :)
cb
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Pssst....: http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,117952.0.html
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Checking in.. finally decided to jump on the R44 train and ordered one this morning.
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It is "the shiznit" (as the kids say these days).
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Checking in.. finally decided to jump on the R44 train and ordered one this morning.
Ordered mine last night (Oade Concert Mod).
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^^^
Same. Too bad we didn't do this 2 weeks ago.
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From what I'm gathering, Wanee is going to look like an R-44 user's convention.
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So mine came in this morning and I've read through all three of these topics. Thanks to lee for answering the power-cable question three times, and everyone else for some really useful information.
I guess my major question is the phantom issue running 4-mics directly into the R-44. I'll be running a pair of KM-150s and a pair of DPA 4021s. I also have the option of running the 150s into the Mini-me and connecting digitally to the R-44.
The entire discussion begun by DSatz about phantom power equations is pretty much completely over my head, so I guess the question is whether these four will power correctly.
I did run these four together once with a borrowed R-4 and the results were truly outstanding (thanks Keith).
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I've run 4 phantom many times without any issues that I know of (2xAKG480+2xC4).
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I've run 4 phantom many times without any issues that I know of (2xAKG480+2xC4).
same here...
2 x MC930 & 2 x Naiant XT
2 x MC930 & 2 x AKG 461
--Michael
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Danlynch, the phantom powering of my R-44 is a little below spec when driving four transformerless Schoeps microphones, and I prefer to avoid that situation for myself. But both the Neumann KM 150 and the DPA 4021 draw distinctly less current than the Schoeps; I wouldn't worry about using pairs of those.
Is that clearer?
--best regards
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Anyone ever use a batterygeek 10-14-88 to power the R-44? I've read they work with the R-4 so I assume they would work with this as well. The battery is (10V~14V) 8A max current output. Im not to good with specs, I assume since the R-44 takes 9-16V/1.2A, its all good on voltage, just wondering about the 8A max current...
EDIT: after a little crash course in electricity, I've learned the difference between voltage & amperage. The voltage is the the amount of power, while amperage is how fast it flows from the battery to the device, or current. Thus, on the 10-14-88, the maximum flow of power, or current, it can supply, is 8A. Since the R-44 only requires 1.2A, this is well within the limits of that particular battery. And since the voltage the batt supplies is also within the range the R-44 accepts, this battery should work just fine. (granted one of the connector tips fits), not to mention power it FOREVER, you can't kill this thing!
Im sure you folks already know all this, but Im just all proud of myself for figuring it out. ;D Please let me know if Im off base here...
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Danlynch, the phantom powering of my R-44 is a little below spec when driving four transformerless Schoeps microphones, and I prefer to avoid that situation for myself. But both the Neumann KM 150 and the DPA 4021 draw distinctly less current than the Schoeps; I wouldn't worry about using pairs of those.
Is that clearer?
--best regards
Absolutely, thanks!
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Danlynch, the phantom powering of my R-44 is a little below spec when driving four transformerless Schoeps microphones, and I prefer to avoid that situation for myself. But both the Neumann KM 150 and the DPA 4021 draw distinctly less current than the Schoeps; I wouldn't worry about using pairs of those.
David, do you have any idea how much current the Gefell MV692 draws? I've been unable to unearth that spec and
I'm trying to determine if the R-44 will properly power two pairs of my various mics.
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Mine just arrived this afternoon. I'll fiddle widit and re-scan the threads tonight.
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Anyone ever use a batterygeek 10-14-88 to power the R-44? I've read they work with the R-4 so I assume they would work with this as well. The battery is (10V~14V) 8A max current output. Im not to good with specs, I assume since the R-44 takes 9-16V/1.2A, its all good on voltage, just wondering about the 8A max current...
EDIT: after a little crash course in electricity, I've learned the difference between voltage & amperage. The voltage is the the amount of power, while amperage is how fast it flows from the battery to the device, or current. Thus, on the 10-14-88, the maximum flow of power, or current, it can supply, is 8A. Since the R-44 only requires 1.2A, this is well within the limits of that particular battery. And since the voltage the batt supplies is also within the range the R-44 accepts, this battery should work just fine. (granted one of the connector tips fits), not to mention power it FOREVER, you can't kill this thing!
Im sure you folks already know all this, but Im just all proud of myself for figuring it out. ;D Please let me know if Im off base here...
I think you are right on track here skotdee...I own a 10-14-88 but have actually never tried it with my r-44 due to the way I do things at shows particularly w/the r-44(swap wally's and sdhc cards at every setbreak, for the sake of always coming home with something). Plus I'm often running my mr1k as well and that is the power source for that deck.
But I agree it should power it for quite some time, far longer than the standard wally's anyway.
I'm sure I could run a few tests if you would like...
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If it helps at all I have run two sets of Schoeps Mk21/MK22 both with CMC6 bodies into my R-44 with no issues.
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Breaking down the R-44 and 10-14-88 battery thing a bit...(bear with me, I had a margarita or two tonight...)
The 10-14-88 is rated at 88 watt-hours (WH). Many people (including myself) find WH a bit confusing. Most batteries are rated in amp-hours (AH), not WH. Theoritical run-time calculations are easier when using AH. To calculate theoretical run-time1 with a battery spec'd in AH, simply divide the AH spec of the battery by the amp (A) draw of the device one is running. For example, a 7 AH battery using a 1 A device will provide a theoretical run-time of 7 hours (7 AH divided by 1 A).
For a battery spec'd in WH (att-hours), it's easiest if we first convert WH to AH. Then, we may use the simple calculation noted above. To convert a battery's WH to AH, divide the WH rating by the voltage (V). So, using the 10-14-88 battery as an example: an 88 WH battery using a 10V device (for example, the R-442) provides 8.8 AH of capacity (88 WH divided by 10V = 8.8 AH). Going back to the run-time calculation above based on AH: since the battery's AH rating is 8.8 AH, and the R-44 draws 1.2A, the theoretical run-time is 8.8 AH divided by the 1.2 A draw, or 7.3 H (hours).
1Note this is the theoretical run-time, which assumes perfect efficiency. Actual run-times will be somewhat shorter.
2While the R-44 runs on 9V - 16V, the 10-14-88 battery runs on 10V - 14V. For our calculations, we must use the lowest common voltage between the device (R-44) and battery (10-14-88): 10V.
HTH.
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JFTR, I ran pairs of Milab DC-196 + Senn 8040 (for alternate stereo recordings, not 4 mic) into the R-44 at Joe's Pub tonight with no problems.
Also FTR, I use a PM85-50 Li-ion 13200 mAh battery @ 11V and get about 7 hours powering the same 4 mics.
(and you're welcome, Dan)
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Thanks to lee [hookem] for answering the power-cable question three times, and everyone else for some really useful information.
I guess my major question is the phantom issue running 4-mics directly into the R-44...
Another thanks here. Made it easy for me to find the powering info in the thread last night. Off to R-shack tonight.
I asked Doug Oade about the current of the phantom supply and he assured me there should be no problem running 4 of my mics, all of which draw around 4ma or less (He confirmed that the Gefell MV692s draw 3ma, which is the one I was unsure about).
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Didn't need to make the Rad-shack run. Found an extra size M plug in my desk and hacked one of the cables that came included with the 3 new Li-ion batteries I picked recently. Ground a slot in the plug's screw-on housing for right angle cable entry and soldered it up with the correct polarity (sleeve positive, center negative). Works a charm as a dedicated cable and needs no adapters. I'm not going to bother making a 'Y' cable for two batteries like I did for the V3 since the internal, low-discharge rechargeable AAs I'll keep in there take over gracefully during an external battery swap.
photos-
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I like the right angle idea! Rat Shack, here I come! A little JB Weld might help. Since I'm getting four batteries I think I'll build a single battery cable and a dual battery cable for various scenarios. It'll be nice to not have to change batteries all night in the dark at a fest.
Now to get a couple of SDHC cards that will hold a run that long too (16GB ??? 32GB ???). My one gripe with the R-44 so far is that changing the SD card can be awkward. I carry a small pair of Leatherman pliers which helps.
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Testing this Kingston SD4/32GB card (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820134716) in there with 4 tracks running now. When I put the card in, the machine was set for 1xstereo 24/48 and remaining time on the display read 31:26:42, which is a nice number. With 4 tracks running for 3hrs so far, it currently shows over 12 1/2 hrs of recording time remaining.
What is the purpose of the Check function on the SD Card Utility screen? I went looking through the menu for a R-09-like Card Info screen and that seems substituted. The manual doesn't say much about it other than a warning that it could mangle data and to be sure to back up projects first. Why not just reformat then?
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What is the purpose of the Check function on the SD Card Utility screen? I went looking through the menu for a R-09-like Card Info screen and that seems substituted. The manual doesn't say much about it other than a warning that it could mangle data and to be sure to back up projects first. Why not just reformat then?
Haven't had to use it yet thankfully, but it's probably like the DOS chkdsk /f command that attempts to save the data in unclosed files if the directory gets scrambled (usually due to a sudden loss of power).
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I haven't used it either but when you move files off the card via the USB cable, it will say that it is checking the card when you disconnect from the computer. Is that the same "check"? I dunno. ???
I always reformat the card after removing all the files. I'm hoping it will prevent any error writing to the card the next time I record. Does it work? I dunno but it makes me feel better. :-\
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I know some of you plan on using or do use one large SDHC card, I urge you to at least have a 2nd card with you at all times when recording. I attempted to record the headliner last night with a fresh card that had been formatted in the r-44 previously and I could not get the R-44 to stop "loading" upon power up...I was eventually forced to pull the power, eject the card, re-insert and try again to the same result..Once I switched back to the card I used for the opener it loaded in about 2 seconds. Luckily I had been recording @24/44.1 as opposed to a higher sample rate or I would not have fit the headliners set on the first card.
Not sure what the issue was. I believe I saw mention of this previously by someone in this or the team thread...just be warned, don't leave yourself without options, these cards, especially the 8 and 16gb, are quite affordable so keep a few extras in your gear bag just in case this happens to you right before showtime.
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Wise words. I have two of these plus other smaller cards I can switch too if necessary.
I haven't used it either but when you move files off the card via the USB cable, it will say that it is checking the card when you disconnect from the computer. Is that the same "check"? I dunno. ???
Noticed that too. I don't think it's the same check. The menu option check takes much longer to process and asks if you're sure brfore doing it. It does not report anything after the check, however.
The 32GB Kingston card seemed to work fine for this initial test. No problem with 2 x stereo 24/48, 4 x mono 24/48, or 1 x mono 24/96. The buffer monitor never seemed to fill beyond than the 1st bar. True test will be next weekend.
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How do y'all organize your SD cards? Both physically and so that you don't get them mixed up?
For the cards I use for recording, I have a small 'leather' case that I carry them in and I've labeled them with a Sharpie with a A/B scheme, A being the size of the card and B being an individual identifier, pretty much the order in which I've bought them. So the first card in my holder is 4/1 (a 4GB card) and the last card I got was labeled 8/7 (8GB/seventh card bought). That way, fumbling around in the dark at a fest I can easily see what size the card is and keep in my head which cards have been used. I also put the used cards in the case backwards as a clue because keeping things in ~MY~ head is risky. I am getting some bigger cards so that changing them out wont be much of an issue though.
I really want to find a better case. The one I have is unnecessarily thick and if you carry it the wrong way, the cards can slide out of their slots. Good thing I only paid a buck for it. I don't like the ones with the inserts for different types of chips, the ones I've tried just don't seem to work well. What do you use?
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You must be a festie guy. I have never had to worry about that for the most part. I just label them with a silver sharpie(easier to see in low light) with a 1, 2, 3. and then use them in chronological order. IE if I start at 2 I go to 3 next and so on. But I have only had to do use two cards in one night. I just keep it in the little plastic case they come in and stick the extra in my pocket when I set up at the show. I dump them every night, and ever since I had an HD-P2 I ALWAYS format the cards between use. I had a couple of errors on the P2 without formatting and I have never run my cards in the R-44 without doing this and they have been flawless.
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Similarly, I mark cards with a sharpie 1,2,3,4,5,6,.. I mark rechargeable batteries the same way.
For single events I'll just bring a spare card along as backup. For long festival type things I carry extra cards in two ziplocks, one marked 'free' the other marked 'used' so there is no confusion as to which have available space. I keep notes on what's on which along with other recording notes on a note pad. It is very convenient to have large capacity cards for those situations, cutting down on card swapping, card tracking, and wasted space on multiple cards.
I always use the AA batteries in sequential numbered pairs or groups of 4. Fresh batteries all point the same way in their plastic cases, discharged batteries alternate directions. Easy enough to push the button to check the lithium-ions. Works for me.
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For single events I'll just bring a spare card along as backup. For long festival type things I carry extra cards in two ziplocks, one marked 'free' the other marked 'used' so there is no confusion as to which have available space.
<snip>
Works for me.
Until you lose the baggie! Sorry, I had to toss that one in. ::) That had to hurt. But the "used" baggie idea sounds good!
I like the idea of putting the purchase date on the battery packs as well as giving them a identifying number.
I saw a holder system for AA batteries somewhere on the Internet and meant to go back and get it but never did. It had plastic tubes the batteries went in, green for good, red for used. I keep hitting up the cigar smokers I know to get any of the tubes some of them come in in hopes that some may work for mics, batteries, etc. So far no luck though. What would be great is if they came in sizes that would hold four AAs at a time since that is my most common combination between the R-44 and my camera.
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Until you lose the baggie! Sorry, I had to toss that one in. ::) That had to hurt. But the "used" baggie idea sounds good!
Yep, lost a Ziplock with card #1 in it a couple years back at Live Oak. Had all of Friday's recordings on it. You remembered that? I've kept a close hand on them ever since. :-\
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Until you lose the baggie! Sorry, I had to toss that one in. ::) That had to hurt. But the "used" baggie idea sounds good!
Yep, lost a Ziplock with card #1 in it a couple years back at Live Oak. Had all of Friday's recordings on it. You remembered that? I've kept a close hand on them ever since. :-\
Yep, I remember all sorts of stuff that I shouldn't and can't remember a damn thing I should. ::)
BTW, I went by RatShack today and picked up some of the M-sized connectors to make up a power cable for the DVD battery & R-44 like you did. While I was there I noticed they had the Targas knockoff of the large Gorillapod camera tripod on sale for $7.50. I grabbed one and headed to the register. It rang up as costing $3.50 so I grabbed a second one. Pretty good deal for a versatile little tripod! 8)
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Some quick notes:
- In late February I recorded my first live concert with my new R-44 and had strange RFI problems which I reported here. Two nights ago I recorded another concert with the R-44 in the same location using a somewhat similar setup, and had no problems with RFI whatsoever. In the meantime I'd rounded up four Shure A15RF filters and had them with me "just in case," but they weren't needed.
- Apart from the great convenience while recording with three or four mikes, the R-44 is FAR more convenient than my old laptop arrangement for playing back three or four channels into a mixer. It makes a huge difference in my being able to get post-production work done within a limited time. I'm very happy about that.
- My one remaining complaint is the difficulty of seeing the exact peak levels of each channel when those levels are in the -6 to -3 dBFS range. This is forcing me to under-record somewhat, just to play it safe.
- The people here who are chiming in with "I powered four [whatever type of] microphones via the R-44 with no problems" may be missing the point somewhat. If a microphone is marginally underpowered, it may work OK or it may have decreased headroom and other possible problems, depending on the microphone's design and, of course, how far below spec the voltage actually is.
If you're using mikes that can normally handle 130 dB SPL, for example, suddenly their clip point may have dropped to 120 dB SPL. Especially for microphones with internal DC/DC converters (which is essentially every transformerless microphone in the world), the SPL limit will most likely not be proportional to the power supply voltage; the loss of headroom may be quite a bit more severe than you might expect. I have seen graphs of maximum SPL versus supply voltage for some types of condenser microphones in which there was a very rapid decline past a certain point.
Of course that loss of headroom wouldn't matter if your microphones don't need to handle very high sound pressure levels. But my guess is that most people who are posting these remarks are doing so without first checking either the voltage at the power supply or the maximum SPL that the mikes can handle when powered by that reduced voltage. And that missing information is very important.
Power supplies aren't expected to be perfect, so the IEC standard for phantom powering specifies tolerance limits. Microphones are generally designed on the assumption that the powering will be within that set of tolerances--not some other set of tolerances that the manufacturer finds more convenient. I've dealt particularly with German microphone engineers for decades now, and have found that they compartmentalize their thinking almost completely. Even though on one level they are all aware of the problems, it's as if they can't quite bring themselves to believe that another engineer would design a "professional" product that doesn't comply with the standard.
--best regards
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I posted this in the Team R44 thread so apologies to those tracking both treads.
So far I have only a few gripes with the R44-
1) No detent at the +/-0 digital level position (inner knob) for the channel input gains.
2) The red clip indicator light is missing.
3) Like others have mentioned, the metering could be better. Yet I'm rather used to the identical metering on the R09 and the R44 is identical except for the missing clip indicator light.
4) No settable delay function available as a record/playback effect, which would seem an obvious application and more useful than some of the other functions.
5) No pan function for monitoring or playback mix out, which would be another obvious application that could be handled via a record/playback effect.
The last two could conceivably be added through a future firmware update. Any Edirol engineers lurking?
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- The people here who are chiming in with "I powered four [whatever type of] microphones via the R-44 with no problems" may be missing the point somewhat. If a microphone is marginally underpowered, it may work OK or it may have decreased headroom and other possible problems, depending on the microphone's design and, of course, how far below spec the voltage actually is.
If you're using mikes that can normally handle 130 dB SPL, for example, suddenly their clip point may have dropped to 120 dB SPL. Especially for microphones with internal DC/DC converters (which is essentially every transformerless microphone in the world), the SPL limit will most likely not be proportional to the power supply voltage; the loss of headroom may be quite a bit more severe than you might expect. I have seen graphs of maximum SPL versus supply voltage for some types of condenser microphones in which there was a very rapid decline past a certain point.
Of course that loss of headroom wouldn't matter if your microphones don't need to handle very high sound pressure levels. But my guess is that most people who are posting these remarks are doing so without first checking either the voltage at the power supply or the maximum SPL that the mikes can handle when powered by that reduced voltage. And that missing information is very important.
Interesting. So how can one figure if it will indeed adequately power a particular microphone? For instance, Im looking at using it to power 4 AKG480 mics. From the 480 specs, they need a supply voltage of 48v, with current consumption of <2 mA. The R-44 supplies 48 V + or - 4 V, 8 mA per 1 channel (20 mA or less in all channels), so I should be fine, no? Not sure what that "+ or -" is after 48 V though...
Am I overthinking this? If Im purchasing a 4 channel recorder I obviously want it to power 4 mics... Seems like a given that it would.
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- The people here who are chiming in with "I powered four [whatever type of] microphones via the R-44 with no problems" may be missing the point somewhat. If a microphone is marginally underpowered, it may work OK or it may have decreased headroom and other possible problems, depending on the microphone's design and, of course, how far below spec the voltage actually is.
If you're using mikes that can normally handle 130 dB SPL, for example, suddenly their clip point may have dropped to 120 dB SPL. Especially for microphones with internal DC/DC converters (which is essentially every transformerless microphone in the world), the SPL limit will most likely not be proportional to the power supply voltage; the loss of headroom may be quite a bit more severe than you might expect. I have seen graphs of maximum SPL versus supply voltage for some types of condenser microphones in which there was a very rapid decline past a certain point.
Missing the point entirely, as a matter of fact! In my own case, I was recording at very modest SPL levels. Thanks for the clarification -- now I'm thinking I should go out and record some jackhammers with 4 vs. 2 mics connected to see how well they hold up. I think all the condensers I use have nominal requirements of 48V ±4.
Am I correct in assuming that the voltage/current of the power source to the R-44 has no direct relation to the ability of the unit to power the mics, as long as the power source is within Edirol's specs?
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Just got this response from Oade:
The R44 has 20 mils of current for all 4 channels, most mics draw 2 to 4 mils each. Only a very few, like EarthWorks mics need more,. You can run 4 C480s ( or 4 of most any mic) without any trouble.
I hope this helps...Doug
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Interesting. So how can one figure if it will indeed adequately power a particular microphone? For instance, Im looking at using it to power 4 AKG480 mics. From the 480 specs, they need a supply voltage of 48v, with current consumption of <2 mA. The R-44 supplies 48 V + or - 4 V, 8 mA per 1 channel (20 mA or less in all channels), so I should be fine, no? Not sure what that "+ or -" is after 48 V though...
The "+ or -" means the actual voltage should be between 44 and 52 volts, but if I understand DSatz's test measurements, that's not necessarily the case for certain mics with four of them drawing power.
I'm also planning on using four 480s with the R-44, so I'm somewhat reassured to read Doug's assessment.
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skotdee, if your R-44 is like mine, then based on what I measured, I think you'll have no problem at all with it powering four of your AKG microphones. Doug Oade's summary is a bit too warm and fuzzy--quite a few microphones draw more than 4 mA, not just a few rare types--but if your microphones draw less than 3 mA apiece then there really is no problem.
kbergend, perhaps the issue is open-circuit voltage versus voltage under load. For 48-Volt phantom powering the specified tolerance is ±4 Volts, but that's open-circuit voltage--what you would measure at an XLR socket that has no microphone connected to it. The usual circuit feeds the DC to each microphone through a matched pair of resistors specified at 6.8 kOhms each for 48-Volt powering. When a microphone is connected, half of its supply current flows through each of those resistors--and the more current that flows through any resistor, the more the voltage drops across that resistor. So the voltage actually delivered to the microphone is less, in proportion to the current drawn.
If a microphone draws 2 mA, then 1 mA is flowing through each of the 6.8 kOhm resistors, causing a voltage drop of 6.8 Volts across each resistor. Thus if the open-circuit voltage was 48 Volts to begin with (and if the supply itself is perfect and doesn't sag at all under load), then the voltage actually reaching the microphone will be 48 - 6.8 Volts, or 41.2 Volts. That is completely in accord with the standard; only the open-circuit voltage is specified, and the actual voltage reaching the microphone is supposed to be lower in proportion to the current being drawn. The microphone designers know this and work with it.
If a microphone draws ca. 7 mA then it is really receiving only about 24 Volts. To draw more than 7 mA is actually to pass the point of diminishing returns as far as power is concerned--at 10 mA (Earthworks), the drop across each resistor is 5 x 6.8 = 34 Volts so the great majority of the power is being expended in the feed resistors, not the microphone circuitry; it is simply wasted as heat.
Now as it happens, the supply in the R-44 isn't quite perfect, and it does sag as more current is drawn--if you connect 1, 2, or 3 microphones at 4.5 mA apiece and measure the open-circuit voltage at the fourth, unused socket, it keeps getting lower as more and more current is drawn from the other sockets. Ideally that should not be the case, but as long as the equivalent open-circuit voltage stays in the 44 - 52 Volt range and the recorder isn't harmed by being pushed up to its limit, then everything should work fine.
Unfortunately what I found is that my R-44 can't actually deliver even 16-18 mA without the voltage sagging below the tolerance limit. Thus I avoid connecting four Schoeps CMC-series 48-Volt mikes at the same time, simply because the recorder is at or slightly past its actual limit then, and I'm averse to operating equipment that way. I have seen a phantom power supply literally burn itself out; it smells funny, it can be expensive to repair, and it spoils the recording, which kind of defeats the purpose of my being there.
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skotdee, if your R-44 is like mine, then based on what I measured, I think you'll have no problem at all with it powering four of your AKG microphones. Doug Oade's summary is a bit too warm and fuzzy--quite a few microphones draw more than 4 mA, not just a few rare types--but if your microphones draw less than 3 mA apiece then there really is no problem.
kbergend, perhaps the issue is open-circuit voltage versus voltage under load. For 48-Volt phantom powering the specified tolerance is ±4 Volts, but that's open-circuit voltage--what you would measure at an XLR socket that has no microphone connected to it. The usual circuit feeds the DC to each microphone through a matched pair of resistors specified at 6.8 kOhms each for 48-Volt powering. When a microphone is connected, half of its supply current flows through each of those resistors--and the more current flows through any resistor, the more the voltage drops across that resistor. So the voltage actually delivered to the microphone is less, in proportion to the current drawn.
If a microphone draws 2 mA, then 1 mA is flowing through each of the 6.8 kOhm resistors, for a voltage drop of 6.8 Volts across each resistor. Thus if the open-circuit voltage was 48 Volts to begin with (and if the supply itself is perfect and doesn't sag at all), then the voltage actually reaching the microphone will be 48 - 6.8 Volts, or 41.2 Volts. That is completely in accord with the standard; only the open-circuit voltage is specified, and the actual voltage reaching the microphone is supposed to be lower in proportion to the current being drawn. The microphone designers know this and work with it.
If a microphone draws ca. 7 mA then it is really receiving only about 24 Volts. To draw more than 7 mA is actually to pass the point of diminishing returns as far as power is concerned--at 10 mA (Earthworks), the drop across each resistor is 5 x 6.8 = 34 Volts so the great majority of the power is being expended in the feed resistors, not the microphone circuitry; it is simply wasted as heat.
Now as it happens, the supply in the R-44 isn't quite perfect, and it does sag as more current is drawn--if you connect 1, 2, or 3 microphones at 4.5 mA apiece and measure the open-circuit voltage at the fourth, unused socket, it keeps getting lower as more and more current is drawn from the other sockets. Ideally that should not be the case, but as long as the equivalent open-circuit voltage stays in the 44 - 52 Volt range and the recorder isn't harmed by being pushed up to its limit, then everything should work fine.
Unfortunately what I found is that the recorder can't actually deliver even 16-18 mA without the voltage sagging below the equivalent of the 44-Volt tolerance limit. Thus the reason I avoid connecting four Schoeps CMC-series 48-Volt mikes at the same time is simply that the recorder is at or slightly past its actual limit then, and I'm averse to operating equipment that way. I have seen a phantom power supply literally burn itself out; it smells funny, it can be expensive to repair, and it spoils the recording, which kind of defeats the purpose of my being there.
The above is completely untrue. Have just tested my R-44: Open circuit phantom is 47.9V. With one microphone connected drawing 5 mA, the phantom drops to 47.75V, two mics connected eaching drawing 5 mA, the phantom drops to 47.6V...With four mics connected eaching drawing 5 mA (total 20 mA), the phantom drops to 47.4V, well within the specs. End of story. You can test yours to confirm or to get the exact voltage, but please do not mix speculations with facts.
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Your test says one thing, his another - I don't see where 'speculation' comes into it. Presumably you were using the same model of mic as in his test? Otherwise your test as a check on his would appear to be invalid.
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Your test says one thing, his another - I don't see where 'speculation' comes into it. Presumably you were using the same model of mic as in his test? Otherwise your test as a check on his would appear to be invalid.
The "speculation" is his "calculations" indicating that currents drawn in one XLR connector will affect the phantom supply voltage in other XLR connectors, because of the 6.8 K ohm. This is simply not true, a conclusion obviously not based on measurements.
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OK, here are some actual measurements. Open-circuit voltage with no mikes connected, 46.8 Volts. Connect one CMC 541 mike and the voltage at the unused input drops to 46.0 Volts. Connect a second CMC 541 mike and this drops another 0.8 Volts to 45.2 Volts, which is still just fine.
Add a CMC 58 (for double M/S, perhaps) and now the voltage on the unused input is 44.5, which as I've been saying is quite OK although it implies some small (ca. 200 Ohm) non-standard series resistance between the regulated supply and the phantom resistor pairs--though that low a value wouldn't give them much extra filtering of the DC or protection from inrush current, so it's hard to imagine the motive for it.
Anyway with another CMC 58 connected to the fourth input there are no more unused inputs, so if I unscrew the connector shell and measure across the terminals I get 31.2 Volts. Now 2 mA through a 6.8 kOhm resistor gives a 13.6-Volt drop while 2.5 mA gives 17 Volts. Since even the lower of the two figures doesn't quite add up to the 43.8-ish voltage I would expect, I have to suspect that the phantom resistors are lower in value than the nominal 6.8 kOhms. And potentially (no pun unintended) that could also be quite OK--the absolute tolerance is 20% as I recall, as long as the resistors are matched within each pair to within 0.4%.
So to me it still seems that as far as the microphones are concerned, this recorder's powering is a little below its own specifications. It's probably just barely OK for running four Schoeps CMC 5--s even though the supply by that point has fallen slightly below the official standard--but can the circuit put out nearly its maximum current for an indefinite length of time without risk of failure? Unless I can find out more, I'd have qualms about running this class of equipment that way on a steady basis.
I bought the $65 extra insurance policy and I suppose I could plug in four testers and leave the unit running for a week to see whether its power supply burns out or not, but if it does burn out and the insurance won't pay for a new one ... Main thing is, though, people with even higher-current microphones such as Shure KSMs, CAD Equiteks or Earthworks should continue to use outboard phantom supplies with this recorder.
--best regards
Seemed to be based on measurements?? Or are you saying he made it up?
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Your test says one thing, his another - I don't see where 'speculation' comes into it. Presumably you were using the same model of mic as in his test? Otherwise your test as a check on his would appear to be invalid.
The "speculation" is his "calculations" indicating that currents drawn in one XLR connector will affect the phantom supply voltage in other XLR connectors, because of the 6.8 K ohm. This is simply not true, a conclusion obviously not based on measurements.
Just so you realize - you're being a total ass to one the most respected members here...
Cool to question or clarify...but no need to be such a douche
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Just so you realize - you're being a total ass to one the most respected members here...
Cool to question or clarify...but no need to be such a douche
I respect facts, not misleading info/statements. Regarding being as ass, yes you can lick my ass!
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{edited to reflect things as they are not as they were}
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Hello, MaxJames. What you posted is very interesting. You've misinterpreted some of what I wrote and you're using language that I think is uncalled for, but the main thing is that you measured the voltages and posted your results--so now we all have more information than we had before, and I appreciate the contribution.
I don't assume that either one of us is necessarily mistaken, but it is a bit of a surprise that two samples of the same model would differ this much unless there's been a circuit revision. For reference, the serial number on mine is ZX527 followed by two further digits. If my R-44 behaved more like yours, I'd be happier--but for me the net result is just that I will bring along a phantom power supply for two of the mikes if I ever want to connect four transformerless Schoeps mikes directly to this recorder. Sometimes I use older microphones with output transformers; those microphones draw less than 1 mA apiece so there'd be no problem using a pair of them with a pair of newer ones. All in all it's no tragedy.
Just to clarify, when the load on one socket causes the voltage on a different socket to sag, that is not because of the 6.8 kOhm resistors on either socket. I never said or implied that in any way! But if you thought that I'd said it, you'd be right to call it mistaken. The voltage sag could have a number of possible causes, but the fact that it was so regular--0.8 Volts for each additional 4.5 mA microphone I connected--made me think that there might be some extra series resistance going from the regulated 48 VDC supply to the four pairs of (what should be) 6.8 kOhm phantom resistors.
What microphones did you use that draw 5 mA? Just curious. Mine were Schoeps CMC 5-series mikes which actually draw something more like 4 mA when used without active accessories.
By the way, all the quoting back of entire messages is kind of unnecessary on a board like this, isn't it?
--best regards
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By the way, all the quoting back of entire messages is kind of unnecessary on a board like this, isn't it?
--best regards
I would love to know how to measure these types of things. I have an R-44, various mics, and a multimeter. Is that enough? If so, can someone post an idiot proof, step by step method for doing so?
Always learning,
--Michael
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By the way, all the quoting back of entire messages is kind of unnecessary on a board like this, isn't it?
Should be, but I got the distinct impression that your earlier post which I quoted hadn't been read by MaxJames. But indeed it seems to have been subsequently re-quoted a few more times! :)
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Michael, you can easily make this measurement with the equipment you mentioned. Just turn on the phantom powering and push one of your multimeter's probes into the hole for pin 1 of any XLR microphone socket--that will be the ground pin--and push the other probe into either of the other two holes. With no microphones connected you should see 44-52 VDC.
Then connect one (or more) of your microphones and again make this measurement at an unoccupied socket. Strangely the ISO standard for phantom powering doesn't address this topic directly, but from a common-sense engineering standpoint, the voltage at the unused socket should be the same as whatever it was before. I found that it dropped distinctly farther than MaxJames found that it dropped for him, and it would be great to know what you find.
One important variable is the number and type of the microphone(s) you plug in, since different ones draw different amounts of current, anywhere from < 1 mA apiece to 10 mA apiece (or even more in some unorthodox cases). If you're going to do this, I'd appreciate your telling us that information as well.
For making other types of measurements, such as measuring frequency response or finding the input overload point of a preamp or recorder's microphone inputs, it really helps to have an audio tone generator with adjustable levels; I'm excessively fond of the NTI (=Neutrik) "Minirator" series and wish they were still inexpensive, which unfortunately they're not any more. But there are alternatives, including the crafty use of recording software or pre-recorded samples.
--best regards
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fixed
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So following the method described by Dsatz, I tested the phantom on my R-44, S/N ZX0099xx. Ground on pin1 test lead on pin2. Phantom on set for 4chx1 Voltage reads 47.5 with multi meter set in 200 range. Connect one Busman modded ADK A51s(main bias resistor changes and capacitors) Voltage drops to 47.2v. Connect two mics voltage drops to 47.1v
I repeated the test in various setting , stereox2 and monox4 and got the same results.
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One important variable is the number and type of the microphone(s) you plug in, since different ones draw different amounts of current, anywhere from < 1 mA apiece to 10 mA apiece (or even more in some unorthodox cases). If you're going to do this, I'd appreciate your telling us that information as well.
--best regards
Thanks for the instructions!
Test #1
- With no mics attached, the first channel reads 47.6
- Add one Beyer MC930 on the second channel and the reading is 47.5
- Add a second Beyer MC930 on channel number three and the reading is 47.4
- Add a Naiant XT on the fourth channel and the reading is 47.3
Test #2
- With no mics attached, the first channel reads 47.6
- Add one Naiant XT on the second channel and the reading is 47.6
- Add a second Naiant XT on channel number three and the reading is 47.5
- Add a Beyer MC930 on the fourth channel and the reading is 47.4
Test #3
- With no mics attached, the first channel reads 47.6
- Add one Beyer MPC66 VJ on the second channel and the reading is 47.5
- Add a second Beyer MPC66 VJ on channel number three and the reading is 47.3
- Add a Beyer MC930 on the fourth channel and the reading is 47.2
I ran this with the R-44 on the wall-wart and off of a wally-world 9V Lion with the same results. The mics specs should be easily accessible on the web. I'm not sure exactly what to report. The Beyer MPC 66 specs might not be easy to find, but I've been told it is a Panasonic capsule:
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,109937.msg1471569.html#msg1471569
Serial no = ZW802##
Does this help?
--Michael
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Michael, many thanks for your report. Beyer specifies your microphones to draw 4.6 mA apiece, which is directly comparable to the current which my Schoeps CMC-series microphones draw. I don't know the current drawn by the microphones that kirkd used in his test, nor do I know which microphones MaxJames used so I can't confirm his statement that they draw 5 mA. But by now there have been two or possibly three tests in which other people's phantom supplies in their R-44s have held up better under load than mine did for me.
Again, for many situations and purposes, mine is quite OK, too. So now I wonder whether I have an individual sample that is a little below par, or whether perhaps there are different circuit versions out there. Both seem plausible enough to me.
--best regards
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Is there a way to test what the modded ADK mics draw? My DVOM has settings for 10A; 200m; 20m; 2000u; 200u. You guys got my geek side showing and I love learning about this kind of stuff.
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kirkd, the manufacturer really ought to specify this. It can be measured directly by wiring up a barrel adapter that has an XLR-3 plug on one end and an XLR-3 socket on the other; Switchcraft makes these (called the "S3FM," or at least they used to be). Wire it from pin 1 on one end to pin 1 on the other and pin 2, likewise. Finally, attach an insulated wire to pin 3 of either connector, and assemble the barrel connector only halfway--leaving the other connector sitting out of the barrel adapter. That way you have a wire leading to pin 3 of one connector while the other connector has its pin 3 directly exposed.
Plug the barrel adapter into one socket of the recorder, and connect one of your microphones to the barrel adapter's socket via an ordinary mike cable. Then wrap the wire from pin 3 of one connector around one probe of your meter, while holding the other probe to the exposed pin 3 of the open connector. Now turn on the phantom powering for that channel and you can measure the current. Multiply that by 2 and you'll know how much your microphone draws--most likely somewhere between 0.5 mA and 10 mA.
If we knew that the R-44's DC supply remained steady at 48 Volts and that it used standard 6.8 kOhm phantom feed resistors, we could infer the current from the voltage drop (by opening the plug end of a mike cable and measuring the voltage with and without the microphone connected to the other end of that cable). But those are things we don't know, so we can't do that in this case.
--best regards
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Just to clarify, when the load on one socket causes the voltage on a different socket to sag, that is not because of the 6.8 kOhm resistors on either socket. I never said or implied that in any way!
This was indeed the way I (mis)interpreted your original post - it was late in the evening and I did not read it carefully (and did not understand phantom power supply in the first place), before making a hasty measurement and post. My bad and I am sorry.
I am relatively new with recording and recorders, and the R-44 is my first and only recorder I have so far - bought mine in the first week it started general shipping in the US (s/n ZW80244) based on the specs only (without reading any reviews). Never made any measurement until the other day on the phantom power supply, and more measurements today – Here is a summary:
- The phantom supply indeed has a 6.8K for the pin #2 and a 6.8K for the pin #3 – pretty conventional and nothing unusual
- Have a pair of AKG 414, a Rode NT-4 (stereo mic with two XLR connectors), a Rode NT1A, a number of pots, and a half dozen of the Switchcraft XLR barrels (left over from a dozen I bought for making various attenuation pads) – they come in really handy.
- I used the mics with the pots in parallel to draw the exactly 5mA in each connector in the previous measurement
- In today’s measurements I shorted pins #1, #2, and #3 – measured current 14 mA. I did this to both input 1 and input 2, drawing 28 mA in total. The phantom voltage in this case dropped to 47.3V. This is pretty good compared to the spec (20 mA max current, 48 +/- 4 volts). Did not go further because I did not want to risk damaging the circuitry.
- Also measured the output noise floor today as below:
o Used a RF spectrum analyzer to measure the output in 20Hz – 20KHz only
o R-44: level setting centered, 16 bits/48 KHz (what I always use in recording), no filtering
o The EIN is calculated by assuming the gain is -20 dB - the “sensitivity” setting (i.e. for sens = -44 dB, the gain = -20 – (-44) = 24 dB). Not sure if assumption and/or measurements are correct.
Sensitivity Output noise, EIN dB
Setting
4 -123 -99
-2 -122 -104
-8 -121 -109
-14 -122 -116
-20 -122 -122
-26 -118 -124
-32 -112 -124
-38 -106 -124
-44 -100 -124
-50 -93 -123
-56 -87 -123
If the measurements are correct, then the actual noise performance is pretty good compared to the specs and the results by some others (will repeat the measurements using a proper audio analyzer at work next week). Not sure about variations from unit to unit though, in terms of both the phantom supply and the noise floor.
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Let me be one to retract my knee jerk reaction to you and your post and say WELCOME to the club :-* Now if I only had the level headedness of Mr Satz ;D
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kirkd, the manufacturer really ought to specify this.
Here is all I can find for specs:
A-51s SPECIFICATIONS
TYPE: True Condenser Pressure Gradient Microphone
CAPSULE: 1" Diameter, Low Micron, Gold Vapor-Deposited Gradient Design
ELECTRONICS: Low Noise Discrete FET
FREQUENCY RANGE: 20 Hz to 20 kHz
SENSITIVITY: 15 mV/pA 9-36.5 = 1 V/pA
EQUIVALENT NOISE LEVEL: (A-Weighted per IEC 286-4) < 17db Typical
MAXIMUM SPL FOR THD: <0.5% (1 kHz) 140 dB
SWITCHABLE LOW FREQUENCY CUT-OFF: 100 Hz
SWITCHABLE PAD: - 10dB
CONSTRUCTION: Heavy Duty Aircraft Grade Machined Brass with Durable Scratch Resistant Anodized Finish
WEIGHT: 470 grams / 1.03 lbs.
DIMENSIONS: 50 x 190 mm / 2 x 7.5
OPERATING VOLTAGE: 48 V Phantom Power
I did not see any thing that states current draw. If it was something that would be considered useful here to know I could get in touch with Larry who founded ADK mics. Also I don't have any idea if the mods Chris(busman Audio) did affect the draw at all? But from what I'm reading all I need to do is measure pin three current with the MM in the circuit under a load, so it there would be no need to contact anyone, I would have that measurement in real time, right? Thanks for the step by step instructions. I've got some loose connectors here so it won't be that hard to fabricate one up, kirk
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^^^
Not sure about the A-51 but the similar, unmodified ADK-TL draws <4mA. Manufacturer's specs. (http://www.adkmic.com/catalog/audiophileseries/TL.php)
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... and say WELCOME to the club...
Thanks! I look forward to having fun and learning things from this forum, which no doubt will enhance this new hobby of mine. Never thought of measuring the phantom power supply (nor any bench testing in general) until I "discovered" this forum.
Just did some quick measurements on the Tascam DR-100 which I pre-ordered a couple of weeks ago and arrived yesterday, and the results are a bit surprising:
- The phantom supply was exactly 48.0v with no load. Then I shorted pins #1,2, & 3 on XLR input #1 (measured current draw = 14.6 mA), and shorted pins #1&2 on the XLR input #2 (measured current draw = 7.3 mA, for a total current draw of 21.9 mA), the voltage was rock solid at exactly 48.0V
- At the "High" sensitivity setting, the DR-100’s EIN was a couple of dB better than the Ediroal R-44 EXCEPT at exactly 12,000 Hz where there was a spike as high as 15 dB above the noise floor everywhere else. This spike may be due to electrically noisy environment near my test bench, which induced the spike in the 150 Ohm resistor that I used to terminate the XLR input. There was also a minor spike at 60 Hz, which I was able to trace back to the compact fluorescent light that I was using – the spike was gone after I turned off the light. Will repeat the test at my work place shortly.
- At both the “Mid” and “Low” sensitivity settings, the spike at 12,000 Hz was much lower, and the Tascam DR-100’s EIN was a couple of dB better than the Edirol R-44, even if the spike was taken into account.
Overall, I am very happy with both the Edirol R-44 and the Tascam DR-100, based on audio tests (mostly recordings of piano music) - I have very good ears, particularly in terms of tones.
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MaxJames, as you know those are excellent results, completely in tune with the standard for phantom powering at 48 Volts.
I don't know why my R-44 doesn't quite achieve those same results, but it's close enough that it doesn't spoil my pleasure at using this recorder--it just means that I have to be a little bit careful with certain microphone combinations.
Thanks again for your postings.
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has anyone tried to use the M-S mixing feature on this yet?
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I keep looking at that but haven't wanted to "risk" trying it so far. I guess I need to record something lees critical figuring the first time out I'll botch it somehow. I be interested to hear if anyone has used it too, and how it worked out. kd
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You can record the unadulterated Mid & Side signals and use the M/S feature as a playback effect with out risk.
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what a great deck this is. by far, the best feature set, I/O options and stock sound right out of the box.
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I've used the MS dematrixing many times - if you are familiar with MS recording it's very straightforwardly implemented on the R-44. Indeed you can simply use if for playback but that means you get a weird monitoring balance when recording. It's a great pity that the R-44 effects cannot simply be used for monitoring during recording and playack, rather than having the recorded permanently if you simply want them for monitoring.
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Is there a step by step process here anywhere of how to make the external battery and what supplies i will need?
Thanks!
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Is there a step by step process here anywhere of how to make the external battery and what supplies i will need?
Thanks!
Go to Radio Shack and pick up three things. An adapta-plug cable, a B tip, and a M tip. Done. Just remember that the R44 is center pin negative.
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I should report that after about 10 recordings with the 150s + 4021 combo, I have had zero problems with phantom or anything else.
On Sunday, I did my first show with the 150s + board feed. For the first band, I set the digital gain for the 3 and 4 channels (board feed) at 12 o'clock and unfortunately there was a ton of brickwalling. For the second and third bands, I bought the gain down two notches (10 o'clock) and everything is perfect. I guess its hard to really tell if you have a really hot feed until the band actually starts playing. And of course, having the 2 stereo wav files means that a I still have an excellent recording of the first band, just no board feed to mix with it.
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When you say digital gain, are you referring to the inner or outer knob? It is my understanding the inner knob is digital, but you mention bringing it down a couple notches, which sounds like you were using the outer (stepped) gain, which I though was analog ???
Was the channel name blinking when it brickwalled?
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Digital Gain = Inner Knob.
"Analog" Gain = Outer Knob
I brought the outer knob down pretty low, but the fact is that if you've set the inner (digital) knob too high, the brickwalling/peak distortion is going to still be there. The wav flatlines, even though the flatline is at about -20db. When I brought down the inner (digital) knob, it was after the first set and the last two sets of the night are perfect.
And yes there was a lot of blinking, but it wasn't solid. I didn't expect to have the flat-top on the wav that ended up, but again it was my first experience with a line feed. Now I know.
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You should run the board feed at far left analog gain as this line in.... Inner knob @ 12:00 as it isn't even there....
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Allow no blinking.
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the fact is that if you've set the inner (digital) knob too high, the brickwalling/peak distortion is going to still be there. The wav flatlines, even though the flatline is at about -20db. When I brought down the inner (digital) knob, it was after the first set and the last two sets of the night are perfect.
OK wait, if you had the inner (digital) knob set at 12:00, there should have been no digital gain added. From the manual:
Turn the Input level knob [LEVEL] (inner) to the center position. This position is 0 dB.
Are you saying you had to turn the inner knob down below 12:00, thus subtracting gain digitally, to keep from brickwalling?
I'll be running my first SBD patch with this box Friday, and would love to get it right the first time :-\
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I pull soundboard + mics almost every Friday & Saturday night. I set the inner knob to 12:00 for all channels and forget it. Then I set the levels with the outer knob with a little headroom (usually 1 click) and record at 24bit. You have to also consider that the output of the board has a pot and it should be set at unity too. A soundman that doesn't know or doesn't care could alter that setting.
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the fact is that if you've set the inner (digital) knob too high, the brickwalling/peak distortion is going to still be there. The wav flatlines, even though the flatline is at about -20db. When I brought down the inner (digital) knob, it was after the first set and the last two sets of the night are perfect.
OK wait, if you had the inner (digital) knob set at 12:00, there should have been no digital gain added. From the manual:
Turn the Input level knob [LEVEL] (inner) to the center position. This position is 0 dB.
Are you saying you had to turn the inner knob down below 12:00, thus subtracting gain digitally, to keep from brickwalling?
I'll be running my first SBD patch with this box Friday, and would love to get it right the first time :-\
Yes, I had to turn the inner knob down two clicks to 10 o'clock. I assume that this is a "hot" board feed, but again it was my first time with this deck. I've had feeds from this board before (maybe 10 times) but that was using the UA-5, which has very low gain to begin with. Obviously, YMMV.
[edit]
Ok, let me just clarify this a bit. When I say "inner", the knob is the much shorter knob that is adjusted with "clicks" or interval settings. The "outer" knob is the longer one with the smooth adjustment.
The longer "outer" knob could be called inside because it is thinner and longer, but technically further inside of the pot.
Have I now confused everyone?
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Have I now confused everyone?
You have the special honour of being the first person to describe the knob that clicks - the analog gain knob - as being the "inner" knob. It's always referred to as the outer knob, because it runs round the outside of the knob that does not click, which is the digital gain knob, which should always be at 12 o'clock (or higher but there's no point if editing in a DAW later). It should never be lower than 12 o'clock as that would result in clipping from the analog stage being recorded at a lower digital level, but still with the analog clipping.
Note that the preamp has clipping indicators to the left of the meters. That will show clipping requiring you to lower the clickable part of the knob, regardless of what the level meters are showing.
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...the knob that does not click, which is the digital gain knob...
You know they really should have made both 'clicky'...how many hours have I been double checking all my inner (digital gain) knobs are in the 12 O'Clock position? :( if they at least had a 0 dB 'detent' would be nice.
digifish
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Yup - and/or a on-screen readout of precise setting, like those for the clicky knobs. Now that could be a firmware addition, in theory - which I think I did email them about.
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Have I now confused everyone?
You have the special honour of being the first person to describe the knob that clicks - the analog gain knob - as being the "inner" knob. It's always referred to as the outer knob, because it runs round the outside of the knob that does not click, which is the digital gain knob, which should always be at 12 o'clock (or higher but there's no point if editing in a DAW later). It should never be lower than 12 o'clock as that would result in clipping from the analog stage being recorded at a lower digital level, but still with the analog clipping.
Note that the preamp has clipping indicators to the left of the meters. That will show clipping requiring you to lower the clickable part of the knob, regardless of what the level meters are showing.
So it is decreed, from this point further, that I shall, with due haste, from hereon out refer to the knobs as "the clicky one" and "the smooth one".
It does seem pretty counter-intuitive that the clicky knob should be the one that adjusts on the fly and the smooth knob is always set at 12 o'clock, if I'm reading things the right way.
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So it is decreed, from this point further, that I shall, with due haste, from hereon out refer to the knobs as "the clicky one" and "the smooth one".
It does seem pretty counter-intuitive that the clicky knob should be the one that adjusts on the fly and the smooth knob is always set at 12 o'clock, if I'm reading things the right way.
You are now reading things the right way. Clicky = analog, Smooth = digital.
Actually in practice it's a great system, you wind the clicky knob up until it clips (if your source is loud enough), then back it off 1 or 2 clicks depending on how confident you are of the Max volume the source will reach.
digifish
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... and if you regularly use the same mics and record broadly the same kind of music, you may well find that you rarely use other than one clicky knob position. Set and forget.
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So the Edirol firm ware update is for clicky and smooth ;D
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Allow no blinking.
best advice to date
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Allow no blinking.
best advice to date
Even yet I don't push my analog levels too high. I still back off the R-44 analog inputs a 'click' or two because hot levels have a tendency to sound distorted. ymmv.
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Seems to me that my R44 is pretty conservative on the level metering....
What would appear to be -12dB on the meters are really -20 in wavelab. But when I fed a test tone at 1k @0dB from a Soundcraft Ghost, meters reported true, same for -3 and -6dB.
Anyone have similiar feelings?
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bugg100, since losing my microscopic vision in an unfortunate encounter with red kryptonite, I've had a hard time reading the R-44's meters accurately. This leads me to under-record channels 3 and 4 just to be on the safe side, and yeah, sometimes they come out lower in level than I'd like. Fortunately those aren't the main channels.
Channels 1 and 2 are nearly always going through my Grace V3 and into the R-44 via S/P-DIF, so I can use the V3's meters and level controls; no problem there.
--best regards
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But geez, David I can check levels on my buddies V-3 from across the room....
But yeah, 24 bit headroom takes care of being well enough for me as well.
Joe
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I've found that after running the R-44 for almost a year now, you get a real good feel for setting your levels. The metering does leave a little to be desired. In my old age with eyesight not a sharp as it was i tend to err on the side of caution. And while not a real technical term, the attack time of the meters seems good and the accuracy solid enough to allow em a level of comfort in pushing the levels up a tad. For me and what I record I look to see the meters hitting between the 20 and 12 marks on the scale. it then seems that I never have peaks that clip. Like a lot of you I do run a pre in front of my mics . And as a rule I always start with the the outer(clicky) [analog] sensitivity knob rotated completely counterclockwise and only add gain with that knob if I cannot add enough with the inner(smooth) [digital] level knob. The most common situation where I find myself have to add gain with the outer(clicky) [analog] sensitivity knob is when I take a straight rca line level signal from a mixer. Kirk
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I'm extremely pleased that "clicky" and "smooth" have taken off as the new popular monikers.
That being said, I have yet to run my mics with the Mini-Me in front with this unit. Its certainly something that I will eventually do. At this point, I'm just becoming more comfortable with the R-44 and carrying the extra equipment in the field has been a disincentive. Plus I have to rationalize/justify having spent an extra $100-150 on the Oade mod unit by convincing myself I don't need the pre. This leads to the question, do I really need the mini-me with an Oade mod version of the R-44?
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I have an Oade mod version and it sounds pretty good without
a pre, stills sounds better with my V3 in front.
Also on the gain... Doug told me (and its in the team thread)
keep the small knob (smooth) all the way to the right before adding any gain
with the outer (clicky) knob.
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I really have a hard time with the logic of Oade's advice unless he totally rebuilt the circuit with his mod.....
On a stock box, far left on the inner(smooth) knob would be +12dB boost of the incoming signal from the analog section.
That would be the analog section you paid money for him "MOD". Is the analog pre that bad that it needs that much "normalization"?
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Also on the gain... Doug told me (and its in the team thread)
keep the small knob (smooth) all the way to the right before adding any gain
with the outer (clicky) knob.
Interesting. Thats in direct contrast to how others here, and the manual, suggest adjusting gain. So it would be better to have all digital gain, and no analog? Does anyone know the difference, or why Doug would advise this method?
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Here's his exact quote
from Doug Oade:
"Use as little gain as possible from the outer knob, this is the one that adjust the dB setting in the LCD display. Increase the gain with the outer knob only if you cannot get enough gain with the inner knob set to maximum"
I don't know what Doug mods, but i have one of his units and it's been fantastic so far.
I'll admit to running digi in most of the time with my main pair, but every time i have run
either soundboard or a second pair of mics, i have followed his recommendation for gain
settings and it's worked fine for me.
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Well, what works is good. But the 2 knob issue is confusing at best to new owners so our needs are best served as community to not add to this.
Could Doug be confused about this in reference to the above quote?
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I think some people have problems envisioning what is inner and outer with the knobs because they are picturing the knobs from looking down at the unit from above, not from looking at the knobs from the end (like a target). From what I read of Doug Oade's comments, it seems to me like he is looking from the top.
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"Use as little gain as possible from the outer knob, this is the one that adjust the dB setting in the LCD display."
Seems to be without question as the smooth knob does nothing on the lcd....
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The smooth knob is clearly digital gain, as I've said before - at its zero point you get digital silence. If you add (or subtract) digital gain during recording, you are irrevocably altering the bits after AD conversion for no useful purpose - unless you have no means or intent to do postproduction. If Mr Oade's strange advice is intended to encourage people to use low gain on the mic preamp, then you can still do that if you want, but don't then add digital gain during recording to compensate - you can do it later in your DAW when you know precisely how much digital gain to apply. During the recording, you're taking a guess and you might end up with digital clipping, or you might add not enough digital gain during recording and need to add more later, which strikes me as undesirable at least in theory.
Furthermore, recording at different preamp (clicky knob) levels has implications for the noise floor at each level. See the earlier thread about this for details. The Oade mods may change the noise floor figure for each setting compared to stock units however.
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I emailed Doug earlier today and asked him to elaborate a little on this matter, here's his reply:
Hi Scott, my understanding is that gain adjustment is a PGA and not digital manipulation of the signal data post conversion, that would be exactly the same as boosting levels with a DAW. The reason to use as little front end gain as possible is to both reduce the odds of overload and reduce the amount of hiss. Think of the front end gain adjustment as an input trim control on a sound recording console. The key point is the analog signal does not pass thru the rotary controls, they are digitally controlled but of an analog signal path. I know this for a fact for the front end as I traced out that circuit and know how it works. This is well done as it avoids any digital level changes in the critical preamp section. I am very impressed with the R44, Edirol did a very good job with it, gain control is just one example of their superior engineering. I looked at the block diagram and now understand why everyone is so confused, that diagram seems in error. I have never seen a limiter, for example, placed after signal level adjustment. One typically uses a limiter before a circuit that can overload, not after. However, Edirol does not release service manuals and I have not traced out that part of the circuit. I do suggest you do a few test and let your ears deice what works best for you.
I hope this helps...Doug
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^^^
skotdee just posted a similar angle while I was typing this:
The smooth knob is clearly digital gain, as I've said before - at its zero point you get digital silence.
Maybe, probably, but your conclusion is not necessarily correct. Just look at the R-09. '0' input level mutes the input, yet no one would argue that the R-09's input adjustment isn't controlling the analog input stage. The R-09 has a digital adjustment of analog input gain. So does the R-44, except there are two input range controls and it is uncertain how the gain stages work which those pots control. Both knobs adjust digital control signals, which can be programed to mute the input or set it at various gain ratios. Those digital control signals can be used to adjust either analog or digital gain changes and that's where the mystery lies.
I agree that both the wording of the manual and the simplified circuit diagram in the appendix seem to indicate that the 'smooth' knob on the R-44 is doing a digital gain adjustment after the ADC. Yet also I've been told by circuit savvy people poking around inside this machine (who seemed quite impressed with Edirol's engineering, FWIW) that the R-44 uses a PGA or programmable gain amplifier and that the simplified diagram might be somewhat misleading. I assume the R-09 uses a PGA design too. I'm not certain what all the implications of using a PGA are other than eliminating sending audio signal though the gain potentiometers by instead adjusting a control signal to the PGA, eliminating the problems of noisy pot wiper scratch, pot linearity and matching, and analog circuit routing issues. I'd think such a design would make for easy/clean/inexpensive push button or rotary user controls and simplifies the analog circuit by keeping it all in the chip and on the board. But I don't know enough about that stuff to really say.
The short and long of it is that I'm back to accepting that I have no idea what is really going on inside this thing. I've reverted to a practical view informed by usage alone. In the real world I've run the R-44 with the smooth knob at both 12:00 and at full clockwise and have made good sounding, undistorted, noise-free recordings both ways. Yet I can also create the condition where I can cause the input stage to clip (channel number blinks) before the meters indicate full scale if the center knobs are not at 12:00. Because of that I've tended to set the center knobs at 12:00 and adjust the clicky knobs for sufficient gain. That makes the metering accurate at least which is vitally important, and I haven't noticed a significant difference in noise. Regardless, I try to keep my eye open for blinking. I was mildly shocked to find that the R-44 doesn't have an obvious flashing red clip light like the R-09 when I first received it.
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I'm going to experiment a bit to try and illuminate myself, but one thought occurred to me to detect where in the circuit the smooth level control is actually working.
We know the limiter is after the analog input stage. IF the limiter is after the ADC but before the level control (smooth knob) as indicated in the block diagram, then we should be able to set the device so that we can hear the squashing effect of the limiter, then adjust the smooth knob and see how that change modifies the effect of the limiter.
If the signal level changes but the limiter squash is the same, then the smooth level control is after the limiter. If adjusting the smooth level control causes the limiter to engage more or less strongly, then it is before the limiter.
The test won't tell us if the limiter is really before or after the ADC though, so I'm not sure that really helps. If we know the limiter is digitally implemented then it does.
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We know how the limiter works from the email I had from Edirol and which I posted earlier - from memory, the limiter switch cuts the analog gain by 12dB and the limiter itself then works in the digital domain. Then, 12dB of makeup is digitally applied before the bits go to the card.
As for the smooth knob - I have had an idea for a test which would determine how it works and I may be able to post further in a few hours' time. I accept that my view of it is based on zero level = zero bits, and I also accept that it would be possible for them to arrange digital mute at the bottom of the knob's travel. But did they?
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The reason to use as little front end gain as possible is to both reduce the odds of overload and reduce the amount of hiss.
As you increase the gain, the noise floor does not increase as much as the gain does (see my previously posted tests) - except at one point in the knob travel. Therefore, at higher clicky knob settings, you are getting a better signal to noise ratio - so long as you don't overdo it and clip, of course.
I think I'll repost those noise floor readings later too.
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OK chaps, brains in gear... I've been doing some measurements on my 'stock' R-44 (24 bit files). All figures are average RMS below full scale in dB.
Firstly I investigated whether, when you go from click to click on the clicky level knob (the preamp knob), what difference there is from step to step.
To do this I simply recorded a steady tone at each step, going up from the lowest gain, and the results are as follows.
Average RMS
Clicky 24 bit tones
-78.07
-71.82 = 6.25
-65.68 = 6.14
-59.42 = 6.26
-47.09 = 12.33
-40.88 = 6.21
-34.8 = 6.08
-28.66 = 6.14
-22.38 = 6.28
-16.74 = 5.64
-10.71 = 6.03
The figure after "=" is the difference from the figure before. So from lowest setting to next one up, gain goes up by 6.25dB. Then by 6.14, etc etc.
Note that from the postion "-14" on the R-44 display of gain to the position "-20" the gain increase is actually 12.33dB not 6dB. The rest are ballpark 6dB jumps.
Now let's see what we can tell about the smooth control, which I suspect is just digital gain. At its lowest setting, when recording a steady tone at a fixed clicky gain setting, you get digital silence (all bits zero). As you increase the setting to some arbitrary points you get these pairs of signal and noise results (noise measured with a 150 ohm resistor plugged in) -
Smooth 24 bit tones & noise
-39.86 signal
-106.58 noise
-23.85 = 16.01
-90.48 = 16.1
-17.03 = 6.82
-83.67 = 6.81
-13.77 = 3.26
-80.39 = 3.28
-11.07 = 2.7
-77.78 = 2.61
-8.95 = 2.12
-75.63 = 2.15
Again, the figures after the "=" sign are the change from the previous values, and you can see that signal and noise pretty much increase by the same amount as you raise the knob from its lowest setting to its highest setting (as represented by the last pair of figures). This to me is still the kind of behaviour you would expect from digital amplification - signal and noise increase by the same amount as you go up. Put it this way - it shows that there is no particular point in amplifying the signal this way vs doing it in the DAW as you don't get an improvement in signal to noise ratio either way. Analog gain change vs noise change tends to not be linear (see next lot of figures).
Lastly, below are some figures just for the noise floor at each position of the clicky gain knob measured across 150 ohms.
Noise 150 ohm
-107.42
-106.24 = 1.18
-104.42 = 1.82
-101.68 = 2.74
-106.65 = -4.97
-104.26 = 2.39
-100.42 = 3.84
-95.35 = 5.07
-89.48 = 5.87
-83.85 = 5.68
-77.84 = 6.01
This shows the noise floor being at -107.42dB with the knob at its lowest setting. When you increase the gain by one click from the bottom (gain increase of 6.25dB, see first table of figures) you get a noise increase of only 1.18dB (to -106.24dB). So that's a better signal to noise ratio if you don't get clipping. And you can read off the figures for other clicks of the knob.
Note that when you go from the position labelled "-14" to that labelled "-20" on the display, you are getting a gain increase of 12.33dB but a fall of noise floor of 4.97dB, so there is a very significant improvement of signal to noise ratio at that point. I would interpret that as being the setting from which which Edirol assume you will be using mics rather than line inputs. At each point above that, you get more gain increase vs noise increase with each click of the knob, though the differences become small for the last four settings. One could argue that recording with the clicky knob higher than the setting labelled "-38" on the display is not really worthwhile in terms of improved signal to noise ratio - you might as well raise the level in your DAW if need be, as that too will raise the noise and the signal equally, but with the knowledge that you won't get unforseen clipping.
Bottom line - have the clicky knob at "-38" or below (because you might as well use your DAW to amplify above that figure) and avoid going as low as "-14" when using mics as the loss of gain when you go down one more click is 12dB, while the noise goes up 4.97dB at that point. And you might as well keep the smooth control at noon as if it isn't a digital gain control, it certainly seems to act like one.
Whew! And goodnight.
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Nice work, that sheds a lot of light on what's going on. Thanks for doing the measurements!
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This statement in the Oade quote is interesting...
The key point is the analog signal does not pass thru the rotary controls, they are digitally controlled but of an analog signal path.
Seems he is implying the gain is analog - but the control is digital...which doesnt sound like the same thing as saying it's "digital gain" (ala normalize).
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Seems he is implying the gain is analog - but the control is digital
That's not so unusual these days (digital control of analog gain) - eg Motu Traveler works that way for one.
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That's what I was getting at as well.
Just to clarify what I stated earlier about the practical aspects of the smooth knob changing the metering so that the onset of clipping may not be as obvious until the channel indicator blinks (ignoring noise issues)-
The danger is in setting the smooth level knob below the 12:00 position. In that case the input stage will clip, indicated by the blinking channel marker, before the meter display reaches 0db. So there is no fore-warning, just a indication once input stage clipping is happening.
From an avoid-any-clipping metering standpoint there isn't a risk if setting the smooth knob above 12:00 which causes the level to the ADC to clip before the analog input stage. At least in that case an overly hot level is obvious on the display. Running it that way is sort of like dialing in forced headroom in the input stage, or setting your clock ahead to trick yourself into being on time. I like accurate clocks.
With Ozpeter's measurements I'll shoot to keep the 'clicky' knob in the center 5 positions and the smooth knob at 12:00. Conveniently, it makes intuitive sense that the best settings are near the center of both the knobs' travel. It's nice when intuition and practice agree.
To sum up, the smooth knob is best left near 12:00, can be used above that position without risk even though the benefits of doing so are questionable, but should not be used below 12:00 to avoid clipping the input stage without warning.
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Thanx for the detailed test results Ozpeter. Gutbucket in theory and on paper I agree with what you summarize but in reality I have never been able to run my deck with the outer knob more that 3 clicks up which would be -14, even then it was because of the line level signal needing more gain. Granted I have never run my mics straight into the R-44 so I cannot speak as to the practicality of those setting for straight mic in. I do run a sound Devices MP-2 in front of the unit and with the MP-2 set as low as it can go I have to run the outer(clicky) knob as far down as possible or risk a clipping indication on the channel display. FWIW that display, in my mind, is like a peak indicator on a mixer and should be avioded at all times. Like Louie said Blinky ANYTHING is bad. It would be nice if Edirol was to update things so there was a peak hold and a clip indicator that held too instead of returning to normal after a short time. I like the idea of a lower noise floor but can't see being able to reach those knob setups while recording amplified rock and roll. Those are my experiences in the last 11 months.
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How does using this gain system compare to a traditional mixer/channel strip approach? (this might have been referenced in the Oade quote)
Seems like they were trying to replicate the channel strip (trim + fader) approach using a "digitally controlled analog signal path" - but perhaps the controls dont work as intuitively as they might have liked? - and you dont get a trimmer peak light - instead the downstream clip light (assuming this is the A/D input) not as useful...once you've lost control of the gain. A -3db peak light on the input would be more telling...
(hope Im not lagging off topic here too much - but Im still on "Team Lust" - so, been following this thread a while...)
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Kirk,
Of course with a hot board feed or preamp output you need to accommodate the signal level however you can. My comments are based on going mic-in. The only preamp I've run in front of the R-44 so far is a CA-UGLY and that was for powering PIP mics. I do plan to run the V3 in fornt of it but I'll 'prolly connect it digitally.
Roving,
Using the channel strip analogy, input trim = the clicky knob and the trimmer peak light is the blinking channel indicator (indicating clipping of the input stage). The smooth knob = the fader, the level meter is then post fader.
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Well right of course levels need to be set appropriately ;D, and like the V-3 I do also use a digi in from my UA-5 a lot too. I do like the digi input option which then negates the whole gain conversation. in fact I use my UA-5 on most board feeds I get. I have calibrated an SUV-1 meter that makes setting levels on the UA-5 a snap. The other thing is the MP-2 signal runs on the really hot side even turned all the way down. We even used this once for a second set of mics with a 744T and had to back down the gain a lot compared to the stock pre's in the 744. I've never run my BM2p+ analog out into this deck, one because of the A/D >D/A conversion and 2 because I like the digi in and like to think that the UA-5 has a slightly better A/D section than the R-44 or at least I've heard that...somewhere can't recall where...although I'm not sure I could tell the difference personally. One day I'll have to try and run mics directly in and see what I think of the stock pre's. I hear that they sound good but have never run mics that way in all this time I've owned the unit. For me most recording done nowadays is a mic/sbd mix with mics almost always being on stage lip. In fact I've only done two audience recordings with it.
Now that I know the -20 setting has a lower noise floor I will try to get to that setting if possible. I'd like to think that with that big a difference it would be something you could hear. It does seem that conversations always seem to fall into agreement that the metering is the one area where we all wish it was a little better than it is. Of course I'm not going to get rid of me deck because of it and even knowing that still think that pound for pound, feature for feature and most importantly dollar for dollar there is not anything better out there right now. Every time I use it I am glad I bought it, Kirk
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Now that I know the -20 setting has a lower noise floor I will try to get to that setting if possible. I'd like to think that with that big a difference it would be something you could hear.
As you are no doubt well aware, it really depends on what you are recording. For most of what people are recording here at TS, the ambient noise of the venue will be way above the equipment's noise floor. If you are recording something like delicate chamber music that needs loads of gain then these efforts to optimize the noise contribution of the preamp might have more merit. Even then, the self noise and sensitivity of your mics is likely to be a bigger contributing factor.
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Gutbucket, good point...couldn't see the forest because the trees were in the way :laugh:
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The danger is in setting the smooth level knob below the 12:00 position. In that case the input stage will clip, indicated by the blinking channel marker, before the meter display reaches 0db. So there is no fore-warning, just a indication once input stage clipping is happening.
I haven't been around in a while, but in reading this whole thread, GutBucket nailed it in my book. After using this thing in the field weekly for a year or more now, and after my own tests, I agree with this assessment, and this is how I rationalize drawing the conclusion that the inner smooth knob is purely digital (not just digital control of analog gain). I pretty much always run at 12 'o clock+ these days on the smooth knob. I actually find that reversing moves on the outer knob in post to be pretty easy, especially knowing the steps are roughly 6db. Makes it super easy to reverse a move. BUT, that 12db gain move is really interesting, and good to know. Thanks for finding that!
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BUT, that 12db gain move is really interesting, and good to know. Thanks for finding that!
I double checked (did the whole test twice) and the result ties in with the odd change in noise floor, but if anyone had a moment to do any sort of test on their unit to confirm that it's the same with theirs, it would be good to have some assurance that it's not something odd about mine - unlikely though that might be.
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I just ordered mine
:yahoo: :nightfevah: :yahoo:
I just ordered mine!
:nightfevah: :yahoo: :nightfevah:
WooHoo!!!
Besides longing for the flexibility afforded by the 2 extra channels, I've been pretty sick of the cheeziness and pathetic analog input stage of my Microtrack, and have been scheming for pretty much the year+ these TS threads have gone on to pull it together for an R-44. Today was the day!
I went for the Oade super modded version, which, due to my profound respect for Ozpeter, I almost felt guilty about, as I cannot argue his point that there's no objective/measureable data supporting any superiority of any of the 'mods', nor is there even sufficient information to qualitatively describe what about them sounds different from 'stock'. It would seem that most who buy a modified version assume that whoever would put the effort into these modifications, and possesses the knowhow to perform them, must know that they in fact improve the sound/performance of the device. I certainly was subscribing to that view, and perhaps still do to an (hopefully sober) extent.
I see it as similar to how we all know there are many high dollar mic pre's (studio and mobile) and most have their ardent devotees. Not all the most highly regarded ones show the best laboratory specs for linearity, distortion, noise, etc. They are 'flavors'. In the case of a modded recorder, one is simply trusting that he will like the flavor he orders. I trust that I will like the flavor Doug Oade has created based on my judgement of Doug. As an old school Deadhead, I'm like: "This guy created The Brick for cryin' out loud!" He was the guy working hardest to get the best possible live concert capture back when the Dead were the only band even allowing that. He's like the grandaddy of concert taping! One could argue these are silly reasons for believing his tweaks produce a better piece of kit, but I don't find it unreasonable to suppose that his status as an extremely seasoned veteran recordist gives him credibility as to what could make a recorder sound "better". My own personal status makes me more than happy to trust his judgement :)
Plus, I have at least heard a few Oade mod R-44 recordings (http://www.gearslutz.com/board/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-location-recording/349611-oade-brothers-modded-edirol-r-44-portable-recorder-review-shoot-out-clips.html), and they sounded quite nice to me. And over the years I've heard many superb recordings by Doug and/or made on equipment he built. It's a very warm fuzzy association for me, so, what the heck.
Not sure why I'm feeling the need to justify myself, the important thing is... [see beginiing of post]!
Peace,
Sanaka
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You'll be pleased, I'm sure.
And anyway, the best pleasures are the guilty ones! (I speak on the basis of extensive research).
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thanks for all your research Ozpeter and congratulations on your new purchase Sanaka.
The only thing I wish they had an update for is the file size selector. If I could set it to 1.75 GB it would make it much easier when editing in post, b/c if you have to add gain to any of your channels at 2GB you go beyond the 2GB file size making it impossible to work with unless you chop the file in half. I know it is not that big a deal but it would sure help out with workflow. Who has the direct support contact for Edirol? I will send them an email.
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The only thing I wish they had an update for is the file size selector.
Is there one? Or are you saying there should be one? I can't see such a thing in the menus on mine.
if you have to add gain to any of your channels at 2GB you go beyond the 2GB file size making it impossible to work with unless you chop the file in half.
I don't follow that at all - how are you doing what you are doing? I wouldn't expect such a problem to arise at all.
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I think Louie is suggesting that there should be a menu option to set the maximum file size, after which the machine makes an auto-split. The R-09 has such a function and lets you set the file size at 64MB, 128MB, 256MB, 512MB, 1GB or 2GB. I too was surprised this feature was missing from the R-44, though I always use 2GB anyway.
I don't follow the part about gain changes increasing the file size bit though, unless the issue is the DAW working in a higher bit-depth, which is common and would increase the file size. That's not an issue with the software I use though so I'm speculating.
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I think Louie is suggesting that there should be a menu option to set the maximum file size, after which the machine makes an auto-split. The R-09 has such a function and lets you set the file size at 64MB, 128MB, 256MB, 512MB, 1GB or 2GB. I too was surprised this feature was missing from the R-44, though I always use 2GB anyway.
I don't follow the part about gain changes increasing the file size bit though, unless the issue is the DAW working in a higher bit-depth, which is common and would increase the file size. That's not an issue with the software I use though so I'm speculating.
Wavelab 5 has this issue.
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Soundforge 9.0 does not.
So who all here is running a V2 in front of the R44? What settings do you use so the R44 is at unity?
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I bet the increased file size is something small like more header data being appended by whatever destructive-based software/workflow is being used. Just enough to put you over the limit and cause problems for certain file systems or for certain software. I personally use Vegas in a non-destructive workflow, so when editing in my project, the originals never get modified at any step in the process.
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Soundforge 9.0 does not.
So who all here is running a V2 in front of the R44? What settings do you use so the R44 is at unity?
yeah, but can you mix multiple channels in soundforge?
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Soundforge 9.0 does not.
So who all here is running a V2 in front of the R44? What settings do you use so the R44 is at unity?
yeah, but can you mix multiple channels in soundforge?
Select All and Copy 2.wav . Open 1.wav Edit > Paste Special > Mix. This brings up a window with option details for the mix. It does not double the file size.
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Soundforge 9.0 does not.
So who all here is running a V2 in front of the R44? What settings do you use so the R44 is at unity?
yeah, but can you mix multiple channels in soundforge?
Select All and Copy 2.wav . Open 1.wav Edit > Paste Special > Mix. This brings up a window with option details for the mix. It does not double the file size.
Anyone mixing multiple channels in SoundForge, and I might even argue anyone using SF for anything, would likely be WAY BETTER OFF using Vegas. Vegas completely fvcking rules. It has nearly the same interface as SF, so if you know SF, getting up to speed in Vegas will be pretty easy. Then, with Vegas, you basically have unlimited channels, both audio and video, multiple buses, full use of any VST plugin you have, the timeline supports almost every file type, be it audio or video, and that even includes dropping flac files right on the timeline. Plus, you get a completely non-destructive workflow that leaves your originals untouched, and you just render out a new file when needed. Did I mention you can just drop video files right on the timeline too? And easy controls for levels, panning, buttons for phase flip, muting, soloing, blah, blah. And oh yeah, FULL AUTOMATION (keyframing) of any VST that supports it, so automating riding levels, or even automating the threshold of a compressor, all a piece of cake. Also, you can be tweaking everything as you listen -- you can be slipping a SBD track relative to an AUD track as you listen to how it sounds, makes matrixing super-easy, etc. (There are a couple of things where SF makes more sense, but SF is a right click away from Vegas, so no biggie).
Anyway, just saying...
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Anyone mixing multiple channels in SoundForge, and I might even argue anyone using SF for anything, would likely be WAY BETTER OFF using Vegas. ...
Anyway, just saying...
I use Vegas. Not much for audio work tho, mainly Video. I use it as it has the best audio support/workflow of any video application. The other alternative to Vegas (as it again has the same interface) is ACID.
The cheap version does a lot...
http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/musicstudio
http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/products/acidfamily.asp
digifish
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Anyone mixing multiple channels in SoundForge, and I might even argue anyone using SF for anything, would likely be WAY BETTER OFF using Vegas.
Or Reaper.... the list is pretty endless. And is discussed to death daily at http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=7
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any of you ever had an issue with the headphone jack? mine seems to be getting a bit loose. When I touch the plug of my headphone it sort of comes and goes.
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clean the headphone plug with rubbing alcohol real good, then try again. Then you can move on to the jack if it still is flaky...
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So who all here is running a V2 in front of the R44? What settings do you use so the R44 is at unity?
anybody?
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So who all here is running a V2 in front of the R44? What settings do you use so the R44 is at unity?
anybody?
when I ran my sonosax in front of it, I would run the sax as hot as possible. for the R44, I would leave the center knob at 12 and the outer know all the way down then gradually increase the outer knob until the levels looked good. If the channel starts blinking, it means that you are brickwalling, so that can come from your V2 clipping or from adding to much gain on the R44. First check your V2 to make sure you are not clipping and then turn the outer ring down one notch (or until the blinking stops). If you clip, you can turn down the inner knob until you are no longer clipping. Zman runs his V2 hot. Might want to get some input on how hot to run it. I think it is ok to let the OVD led to come on once in a while.
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If you clip, you can turn down the inner knob until you are no longer clipping.
Not sure about that specific piece of advice. Has that actually worked for you? Thing is, if the inner knob is digital (and I know that's still being debated), turning the inner down when clipping may simply bring the level down so it appears it's not clipping, when in fact the waveform is bricking. I want to say I tested that specific scenario once, which is what convinced me the inner was digital actually, but now I'm a little unsure since it's been a year or so. This is actually worth testing I think. Someone should run a signal into the unit, making sure not to clip the input, then turn up the outer knob until it's clipping the meter, then turn the inner back down enough to stop the meter from clipping, and then examine the waveform. Has anyone else tried this particular test?
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From: http://lib.roland.co.jp/manual/en/dl_08-24182/r44_guide_e1.pdf
Note bottom hint.
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If you clip, you can turn down the inner knob until you are no longer clipping.
Not sure about that specific piece of advice. Has that actually worked for you? Thing is, if the inner knob is digital (and I know that's still being debated), turning the inner down when clipping may simply bring the level down so it appears it's not clipping, when in fact the waveform is bricking. I want to say I tested that specific scenario once, which is what convinced me the inner was digital actually, but now I'm a little unsure since it's been a year or so. This is actually worth testing I think. Someone should run a signal into the unit, making sure not to clip the input, then turn up the outer knob until it's clipping the meter, then turn the inner back down enough to stop the meter from clipping, and then examine the waveform. Has anyone else tried this particular test?
I agree. I've run a Sonosax and Aerco wide open (with the outer ring at +4, and the inner at 12:00) and was unity with those units (ie. analog and digital clipping are the same). You will brickwall if you try to turn the inner ring down from 12:00 to attempt to attenuate a digitally clipping signal.
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From: http://lib.roland.co.jp/manual/en/dl_08-24182/r44_guide_e1.pdf
Note bottom hint.
That image file visually explains perfectly why both the inner knob and the limiter are dead to me, LOL.
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There are some errors or maybe somewhat misleading info in Edirol's literature though. At one point in the document I gave the link to they mention adjusting the sensitivity (outer knob) and watching the clip indicator to the right of the display. That seems to be fine if you have the level knob (inner) set to 12:00 but the real clip indicator for the sensitivity setting is the reversing of the channel markers on the left. Its not very intuitive at first. I wish there was a way to switch the "meters" between the digital and the analog sides. But once you get used to it, it works ok.
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Hey I got mine!! WooHoo!!
My Team board post here (http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,119049.msg1629168.html#new)
Oade Super Mod:
(http://sanaka.smugmug.com/photos/542462517_xENZE-X3.jpg)
;D ;D ;D
Peace
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From: http://lib.roland.co.jp/manual/en/dl_08-24182/r44_guide_e1.pdf
Note bottom hint.
That image file visually explains perfectly why both the inner knob and the limiter are dead to me, LOL.
^^^
After the last round of confusion I'm completely back on board with this view.
Welcome to 4 channel fun sanaka.
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From: http://lib.roland.co.jp/manual/en/dl_08-24182/r44_guide_e1.pdf
Note bottom hint.
That image file visually explains perfectly why both the inner knob and the limiter are dead to me, LOL.
^^^
After the last round of confusion I'm completely back on board with this view.
Welcome to 4 channel fun sanaka.
It seems that Edirol somewhat murkily says in their literature that the inner knob is all on the digital side and that 12:00 is unity, from what I gather from quotes of Doug Oade, he says he traced some of the circuitry and that the inner knob works at least partially on the analog side. Sorry Doug, I'm going with Edirol until proven wrong. No offense, but they built the thing, not that they couldn't be wrong in their literature but ...
What this effectively does is make the "meter" on the digital side and somewhat meaningless unless the inner knob is set to unity. The only true metering of just the analog side is those channel markers reversing when clipping, and I'm not even sure about that. So I agree about the inner knob, set it and forget it. There may be some situation where it is useful but I can't think of one. Maybe to bring up low levels when running 16 bit.
BTW, the meters seem to work just fine with the inner knob at unity even if they are on the digital side. They are just a bit hard to read.
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What this effectively does is make the "meter" on the digital side and somewhat meaningless unless the inner knob is set to unity.
Well, yes, though I'd reword that to say that they are somewhat meaningless unless you have first checked analog levels with the inner knob set to unity. Having got that right, you can then - if you really want - change the level of the inner knob to add digital gain and monitor the level of that on the meters, which will then be giving you meaninful digital-domain info.
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Meanwhile - c'mon Edirol, where's the promised bugfix firmware update??
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What this effectively does is make the "meter" on the digital side and somewhat meaningless unless the inner knob is set to unity.
Well, yes, though I'd reword that to say that they are somewhat meaningless unless you have first checked analog levels with the inner knob set to unity. Having got that right, you can then - if you really want - change the level of the inner knob to add digital gain and monitor the level of that on the meters, which will then be giving you meaninful digital-domain info.
True enough. Thanks for clearing up my words! I need all the clarity I can get.
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Meanwhile - c'mon Edirol, where's the promised bugfix firmware update??
Surprised we haven't seen any updates.. are there actual bugs people have had or wish list niceties?
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There are some known bugs (Google for "edirol r-44 firmware bugs", not in quotes, and a few should show up) and I was told about three months back that a firmware upgrade would address them in about two months. I do hope in these troubled economic times that the guys who know how to do what needs to be done are still working for Edirol!
There are of course some wishlists - one has to be realistic in one's expectations, but showing the centre knob level numerically when moving it wouldn't seem to be a big ask (to allow one to be sure that it's bang in the middle for instance).
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I asked about custom files sizes and also a digital meter for the inner knob. They only answered one question.
Sorry for the long wait for reply. We are not currently planning to update firmware that allows custom file sizes. Sorry.
Best Regards,
Roland Systems Group
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wow, took me awhile to make my way thru all 3 threads
some good info in there!
im running Nicks ACM R44 for phish knoxville > Bonnaroo. im pretty excited. trying to give myself a crash course before i leave tuesday
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The R-44, makes the current version of the OS to V 1.05 and enables users to add effects in Pre Record mode, and also includes updates for the BWF (Broadcast Wave File) marker format, notable with previously recorded data. Other improvements include quicker shutdown times in some modes with SD cards, and a smoother overall workflow helped by minor bug fixes.
http://www.edirol.com/images/stories/downloads/r44_update_v105.zip
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Update applied, in the field tonight. Will report what seems different.
Joe
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First serious R44 run for me last night at band practice. Was trying to leave the inner sens knobs at noon, but afterwards, sure enough one was tweaked a little. Until Edirol does something about the inner knobs, like change their function completely (http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,122988.msg1638228.html#msg1638228), which will likely be never, I thought of doing this:
(http://sanaka.smugmug.com/photos/559532968_Pnr3z-M.jpg)
A tiny little plastic or even wood strip, say 2mm x 2mm, just glued across the front of the knobs. A pinpoint dot of superglue on each knob could I think break away later without damage if needed. Seems it wouldn't obstruct the main level knobs too much. Crazy?
Peace,
Sanaka
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Little crazy...
Soon it will be second nature for any experienced operator....
Welcome to the team.
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The idea of a finely adjustable level controls on each channel, separate from the stepped sensitivity isn't without merit. That adjustment could be useful for matching the outputs of mics with slightly different output levels for example. But without any way of knowing exactly how much difference you're dialing in you can't really do that accurately enough to bother. Better done latter.
Ozpeter's reasonable suggestion to show the level setting on the display while it is being adjusted would allow that as well as confirming that they were doing nothing when set to zero. Still it would be nice to be able to set any level offsets in a menu so it was it locked and not easily changed.
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Battery life seems shorter with AA's. Will measure voltage at home... Deck shut itself done in record mode....
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Remember that the update will wipe your settings, so maybe something was changed in your settings that had an impact on battery life (eg pre-record, which effectively means it's recording all the time). However, we know they've made a change in the pre-record function (to make effects work in the pre-recorded bit) so hopefully they haven't introduced a new bug such that pre-record is always on even if you've turned it off...
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But the deck was recording while it shut down, so prerecord isn't a factor.
Also reset all my settings, 3x mono, 44.1 24 bit....
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But the deck was recording while it shut down, so prerecord isn't a factor.
But it could be a factor if you'd had the deck switched on (and didn't realise it was therefore pre-recording) for half an hour before you started the actual recording. I realise that probably wasn't the case, but the pre-record is a bit of a gotcha thing when considering battery life.
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Deck was off or recording.
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But the deck was recording while it shut down, so prerecord isn't a factor.
Also reset all my settings, 3x mono, 44.1 24 bit....
Did you set the battery type back to Ni-MH? It will default to Alkaline after the update.
EDIT: I assume you are using rechargeables?
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so after reading all 3 threads can i get opinions on if a mod is needed?
it seemed at first people thought NO
but now it seems like mods are what everyone is doing
fwiw i would run akg48x and Busman mics
sometimes sbd
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What do your ears say?
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What do your ears say?
hard to say for me because unless i know what the music sounded like live i can't tell how it translate to a recording
all i can say is that sounds good or not
and saying a unmodded unit sounds good is fine in one situation but without having a modded unit to compare it too its not a true representation for me to judge
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Mine is unmodded but I run a BMp2+ and an SD MP-2 in front of it. I like the digi out put on the UA-5 so a mod on channel 1-2 would be useless in that situation. It also allows me to run what ever pre I want on that particular set of channels. The only time I have ever used my deck with out a pre is when getting a SBD feed. The board feeds sound just fine at least to me.
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I have a modded unit. I won't hesitate to run schoeps cmc6>r-44 and it sounds very good.
Does it sound as good as when i have the V3 in front? No. But if i can't carry the entire kit,
a pair or two of actives and just the r-44 will make a very good recording and is a very small
rig.
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can anyone explain to me how to delete the blank files from ch1&2 when using just mod'd ch3&4 and havibg to run stereo x 2 to utilize the mod' ch's
stuck at the Roo and can't figure it out. 2 other r44 users here who can't figure it out either
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I think you'd only be able to do this in post cause if you try to delete through the finder on the recorder, it's all or nothing on delete....
What acts have stood out so far at the 'roo?
Joe
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that sucks what kind mod do you have?
can anyone explain to me how to delete the blank files from ch1&2 when using just mod'd ch3&4 and havibg to run stereo x 2 to utilize the mod' ch's
stuck at the Roo and can't figure it out. 2 other r44 users here who can't figure it out either
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Earlier in this thread I wrote about some relatively minor problems that I'd had with the R-44--one odd case of RFI, and finding that the phantom powering in my particular R-44 was slightly below specification when four relatively high-current microphones were connected simultaneously.
I'd just like to balance that by saying that I've continued to use the recorder since then for about a dozen live recordings (some 2-channel and some 4-channel), and have had no further mishaps with it.
--best regards
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can anyone explain to me how to delete the blank files from ch1&2 when using just mod'd ch3&4 and havibg to run stereo x 2 to utilize the mod' ch's
stuck at the Roo and can't figure it out. 2 other r44 users here who can't figure it out either
you should have had channels 1and2 modded if you were only planning on running 2 channels with mics b/c when you select Stereo x 1 it only activates channels 1 & 2. So you must record in Stereo x 2 in order to utilize your modded channels. I assume you are having an issue with not having enough memory on your card to cover all 4 ch.
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can anyone explain to me how to delete the blank files from ch1&2 when using just mod'd ch3&4 and havibg to run stereo x 2 to utilize the mod' ch's
stuck at the Roo and can't figure it out. 2 other r44 users here who can't figure it out either
you should have had channels 1and2 modded if you were only planning on running 2 channels with mics b/c when you select Stereo x 1 it only activates channels 1 & 2. So you must record in Stereo x 2 in order to utilize your modded channels. I assume you are having an issue with not having enough memory on your card to cover all 4 ch.
or he has different mods
some people have warm on 1/2 and trans on 3/4 (not sure if those are the correct terms but you prob know what i mean)
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new thread here
http://taperssection.com/index.php/board,11.0.html
Rick, please lock this one down.