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Author Topic: Acoustic Guitar Recording Mics?  (Read 12687 times)

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Offline illconditioned

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Re: Acoustic Guitar Recording Mics?
« Reply #15 on: January 01, 2009, 05:51:38 PM »
Actually, those charts show excellent consistency in off-axis frequency response, which is only about -2dB or so at 80Hz (the lowest fundamental of an acoustic guitar).
Would you mind explaining how to read the chart?

What do all the "longitude" and "latitude" lines mean?

  Richard
Please DO NOT mail me with tech questions.  I will try to answer in the forums when I get a chance.  Thanks.

Sample recordings at: http://www.soundmann.com.

Offline illconditioned

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Re: Acoustic Guitar Recording Mics?
« Reply #16 on: January 01, 2009, 09:52:47 PM »
The frequency response chart is straightforward; frequency on the X axis and dB on the Y.  Or do I have the XY labels backwards?  It's been a looong time since calculus.

Anyway, I expect you are asking about the polar chart.  The on-axis response is at 0 degrees, and there are several different lines/curves/whatever you want to call them for different frequencies.  Distance from the center indicates the response at that frequency and position off-axis.  Note how it's hard to see the different frequency lines; they are pretty much all the same.  That's an indication of a good, consistent polar pattern; the mic will get mostly uniformly quieter at all frequencies as you shift off-axis.

Other cardioid mics may not be as consistent, especially large-diaphragm types.  That was why I objected to the comment on the Beyer being typical; it is perhaps more ideal than typical.  This is also why I wonder why people like LDCs for stereo mic applications, when their polar response is not consistent.  But they may be inconsistent in a pleasing way?  Who knows?

Anyway, check out the KSM44 patterns for comparison, in the user guide:

http://www.shure.com/stellent/groups/public/@gms_gmi_web_ug/documents/web_resource/us_pro_ksm44_en_ug.pdf

Note that the Beyer charts above don't go up to 15kHz, where they probably do start to wander a bit.  But in general, the KSM44 cardioid pattern is less tight at lower frequencies than the Beyer, and starts to look hyper at very high frequencies.  And check out the omni!  That's because of dual-diaphragm design, but not all multipattern mics are created equal . . .

For further comparison, the dual-pattern (but not dual-diaphragm) KSM141 (small diaphragm):

http://www.shure.com/stellent/groups/public/@gms_gmi_web_ug/documents/web_resource/us_pro_ksm141_en_ug.pdf

So often you will find that consistency of polar pattern is partially a function of diaphragm size, hence small-diaphragm mics are often selected for stereo recording.

Thanks, I get that.

What I meant was what are all the lines inside the general cardioid shape?  It looks like they are depicting a 3D object or something.  I don't get it.

  Richard
Please DO NOT mail me with tech questions.  I will try to answer in the forums when I get a chance.  Thanks.

Sample recordings at: http://www.soundmann.com.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Acoustic Guitar Recording Mics?
« Reply #17 on: January 01, 2009, 10:48:27 PM »
I think they are just showing the polar plot rotated around the mic axis to help you visualize the patten in 3 dimensions, to show how the pattern translates in the real world.  For typical SDC 'end fire' mics it would be pretty much symmetrical all the way around.  For side address mics, the mic housing would effect the pattern somewhat differently in the vertical plane than in the horizontal plane. I'd think rectangular capsule mics like the Pearls would have a polar plot that is a significantly different shape for the vertical axis at higher frequencies.

I thought that was kind of cool when I saw the diagram, since I'd never seen a mics polar plot measurement shown that way before.  It would make it really hard to read if there were lots of different frequency lines though.  I've only really seen this type of 3-D plot in textbook type discussions of mic patterns.
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Offline flipp

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Re: Acoustic Guitar Recording Mics?
« Reply #18 on: January 01, 2009, 10:48:48 PM »
They are depicting a 3D object in 2D, that is they are the images below sliced through the microphone along the length axis. The following make it easier to visualize the actual pickup pattern of a mic. Think of the various frequency curves as how the pattern varies from the ideal.

3D Cardioid pickup pattern 2D Card

3D Omni pickup pattern 2D Omni

Images found in the taperssection reference area

Offline illconditioned

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Re: Acoustic Guitar Recording Mics?
« Reply #19 on: January 02, 2009, 12:08:03 AM »
They are depicting a 3D object in 2D, that is they are the images below sliced through the microphone along the length axis. The following make it easier to visualize the actual pickup pattern of a mic. Think of the various frequency curves as how the pattern varies from the ideal.

3D Cardioid pickup pattern 2D Card

3D Omni pickup pattern 2D Omni

Images found in the taperssection reference area
OK, I get it now.  I don't know why they do this, though, since the mic is symmetric about the axis.

Anyway, yes the Beyerdynamic sound great!

  Richard
Please DO NOT mail me with tech questions.  I will try to answer in the forums when I get a chance.  Thanks.

Sample recordings at: http://www.soundmann.com.

Offline vikki

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Re: Acoustic Guitar Recording Mics?
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2009, 05:51:33 PM »
Just to say thanks for all your thoughts and comments, much appreciated.
Vikki(uk) :D

Offline digifish_music

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Re: Acoustic Guitar Recording Mics?
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2009, 06:03:58 PM »
For the record, in the studio when recording close mic'd instruments (within around 1 to 3 feet) the difference between omi and cardioid can be quite minimal, particularly if the acoustic space is well controlled. The most noticeable thing will probably be the omnis more even bass-response as distance changes, while the cardioid will exhibit a greater proximity effect.

Nothing beats wearing a set of highly isolating headphones and moving the mic back/forward, left right, at various angles - while the player does their thing to find the sweet-spot. Indeed the sweet spot will depend entirely on taste...btw, about the guitar sounding too bright, do you have any objections to making EQ changes? I am always happy to cut frequencies...any chance of posting up a short example?

digifish
« Last Edit: January 05, 2009, 06:07:28 PM by digifish_music »
- What's this knob do?

Offline vikki

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Re: Acoustic Guitar Recording Mics?
« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2009, 06:59:36 PM »
I'm just having a rejig and moving the recording gear into another room, i'll post some samples in a few days when sorted out, many thanks. ;D
Vikki(uk)

Offline jim1274

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Re: Acoustic Guitar Recording Mics?
« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2009, 12:36:37 PM »
I know this thread is a bit old...but....

In researching ribbon mics in general, I came across this old thread.  This post caught my eye as my go to mic for acoustic guitar has been my MC930's or Violet Fingers.

I have to ask, how were you placing the Fathead for acoustic guitar?  I'm actually ready to pull the trigger on a single or pair of Fathead or Fathead II (still trying to figure out if the II is worth the extra bucks) with one of the primary intended uses being for acoustic guitar mic.  What were you using/comparing to for mics when saying "really enjoying the results"?

Anybody else out there using/prefering ribbons to SDC's for acoustic guitar? 

I've never used/owned a ribbon and am dying to try one (two?) out.


I'm chiming in to simply agree with the suggestions that you fiddle around with placement.

You should be able to get a nice guitar sound with that 451b.

That said; I've been using an inexpensive Cascade Fathead ribbon mic on my acoustic guitar and really enjoying the results.

Offline jim1274

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Re: Acoustic Guitar Recording Mics?
« Reply #24 on: October 14, 2009, 08:44:00 PM »
I found a used pair of Fat heads with the Blumlein rig and ordered last night.  Looking forward to trying on acoustic guitar after all the positive comments on ribbons in this application.


I know this thread is a bit old...but....

In researching ribbon mics in general, I came across this old thread.  This post caught my eye as my go to mic for acoustic guitar has been my MC930's or Violet Fingers.

I have to ask, how were you placing the Fathead for acoustic guitar?  I'm actually ready to pull the trigger on a single or pair of Fathead or Fathead II (still trying to figure out if the II is worth the extra bucks) with one of the primary intended uses being for acoustic guitar mic.  What were you using/comparing to for mics when saying "really enjoying the results"?

Anybody else out there using/prefering ribbons to SDC's for acoustic guitar? 

I've never used/owned a ribbon and am dying to try one (two?) out.


I'm chiming in to simply agree with the suggestions that you fiddle around with placement.

You should be able to get a nice guitar sound with that 451b.

That said; I've been using an inexpensive Cascade Fathead ribbon mic on my acoustic guitar and really enjoying the results.

Offline mblindsey

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Re: Acoustic Guitar Recording Mics?
« Reply #25 on: October 14, 2009, 09:46:15 PM »
I have both mc930's and some naiant xt's.  Call me crazy...I have to say, I kind of like my naiant's on my acoustic over the beyers....ymmv.  as a plus, they are really cheap.

fair to say i don't have the top of the line guitar either and it has it's own personality:  "Seagull Entourage Mini Jumbo Acoustic Guitar"

pre was a v3, close mic'd...

--Michael
« Last Edit: October 14, 2009, 09:48:20 PM by mblindsey »
Mics:  Microtech Gefell m200/M20/nBob Actives>PFA, CA-11
Pre's: USB Pre2, 1x V3, 2x V3 w/optimod, MP2, Church Ugly
Decks: SD MixPre 6 II, R44 Oade Concert Mod, M10
Playback: Grace m9xx->Sen HD 650, Fostex TH-X00, HIFIMAN HEXX
Mixing: RME Fireface UFX->Reaper/Izotope->Yamaha HS8

Offline jim1274

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Re: Acoustic Guitar Recording Mics?
« Reply #26 on: October 14, 2009, 10:46:50 PM »
I have both mc930's and some naiant xt's.  Call me crazy...I have to say, I kind of like my naiant's on my acoustic over the beyers....ymmv.  as a plus, they are really cheap.

fair to say i don't have the top of the line guitar either and it has it's own personality:  "Seagull Entourage Mini Jumbo Acoustic Guitar"

pre was a v3, close mic'd...

--Michael

The Naiant is an omni condenser?  I have a pair of Avenson STO-2 omnis that are as yet untested on acoustic guitar.  Also just ordered a set of those "Little Blondie' omnis with all the buzz over on Gearslutz.  There were some clips on the "Blondie" thread that did an A/B with the Avensons.  At 1/3 the price, the Blondies were pretty impressive.  I'm planning to do a major mic shoot-out on acoustic guitar, but am still trying to figure out a way to run, say, 6 mics at once and not have the obvious placement differences make the results meaningless.  Impossible, really.  With relatively close micing, it is pretty much impossible to compare mics due to the sound difference from even a small difference in mic position.  I guess try 2 grouped tight at a time and hope the musician is consistent between takes.  Or put each one sequentially in exactly the same position and go from there.  Guess I got off topic....sorry....

I like both the Violet Fingers and the Beyer 930's on acoustic guitar, but in different ways.  I also have an LDC Violet Flamingo Jr. that might be good on acoustic, but it has been in the vocal/harp slot when I did some prior comparisons.

This probably is a discussion more appropriate for Gearslutz, but am pretty pumped and got a little off base...sorry...

Offline jim1274

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Re: Acoustic Guitar Recording Mics?
« Reply #27 on: October 14, 2009, 10:56:20 PM »
I have both mc930's and some naiant xt's.  Call me crazy...I have to say, I kind of like my naiant's on my acoustic over the beyers....ymmv.  as a plus, they are really cheap.

fair to say i don't have the top of the line guitar either and it has it's own personality:  "Seagull Entourage Mini Jumbo Acoustic Guitar"

pre was a v3, close mic'd...

--Michael

Did a quick search and it seems those Naiants are primarily used as a drum/overhead mic?  Not that they would not be good for acoustic or other uses....

Different mic "flavors" are sure a fun part of this game...

Offline mblindsey

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Re: Acoustic Guitar Recording Mics?
« Reply #28 on: October 14, 2009, 11:30:07 PM »
I have both mc930's and some naiant xt's.  Call me crazy...I have to say, I kind of like my naiant's on my acoustic over the beyers....ymmv.  as a plus, they are really cheap.

fair to say i don't have the top of the line guitar either and it has it's own personality:  "Seagull Entourage Mini Jumbo Acoustic Guitar"

pre was a v3, close mic'd...

--Michael

Did a quick search and it seems those Naiants are primarily used as a drum/overhead mic?  Not that they would not be good for acoustic or other uses....

Different mic "flavors" are sure a fun part of this game...

just one of those things.  if it sounds good, it is good (opinion, of course).  my personal fave for that naiant so far, even though that is not what i purchased it for.  again, i'm in a finished basement (not a controlled studio setting), a hobbyist with some rotating toys, and i really do like it better than my mc930 on my guitar.  mp3's upon request...if you don't make fun of my lack of skill..

EDIT to add that I have used them to record loud shows indoors/outdoors, my daughters xmas recital in a public school auditorium, on a set of hi-hats, as drum OH's, and on ride cymbal....on my guitar I like 'em best.  I like them on the hi-hat/ride too.  for my room the mc930's sound best up top of the drums... 
« Last Edit: October 14, 2009, 11:38:43 PM by mblindsey »
Mics:  Microtech Gefell m200/M20/nBob Actives>PFA, CA-11
Pre's: USB Pre2, 1x V3, 2x V3 w/optimod, MP2, Church Ugly
Decks: SD MixPre 6 II, R44 Oade Concert Mod, M10
Playback: Grace m9xx->Sen HD 650, Fostex TH-X00, HIFIMAN HEXX
Mixing: RME Fireface UFX->Reaper/Izotope->Yamaha HS8

Offline jim1274

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Re: Acoustic Guitar Recording Mics?
« Reply #29 on: October 25, 2009, 04:52:25 PM »
I have both mc930's and some naiant xt's.  Call me crazy...I have to say, I kind of like my naiant's on my acoustic over the beyers....ymmv.  as a plus, they are really cheap.

fair to say i don't have the top of the line guitar either and it has it's own personality:  "Seagull Entourage Mini Jumbo Acoustic Guitar"

pre was a v3, close mic'd...

--Michael

Did a quick search and it seems those Naiants are primarily used as a drum/overhead mic?  Not that they would not be good for acoustic or other uses....

Different mic "flavors" are sure a fun part of this game...

just one of those things.  if it sounds good, it is good (opinion, of course).  my personal fave for that naiant so far, even though that is not what i purchased it for.  again, i'm in a finished basement (not a controlled studio setting), a hobbyist with some rotating toys, and i really do like it better than my mc930 on my guitar.  mp3's upon request...if you don't make fun of my lack of skill..

EDIT to add that I have used them to record loud shows indoors/outdoors, my daughters xmas recital in a public school auditorium, on a set of hi-hats, as drum OH's, and on ride cymbal....on my guitar I like 'em best.  I like them on the hi-hat/ride too.  for my room the mc930's sound best up top of the drums...

I'm assuming this is the naiant mic you are using:

http://www.naiant.com/xtspecification.html

They are pretty inexpensive, so am pretty tempted based on the comment.  Might be interesting to run those, the just scored "Little Blondies" everyone is raving about on Gearslutz, and my Avenson STO-2's as an acoustic guitar comparison test.  The Blondies and Avensons were already going to get the A/B on acoustic guitar anyway.  What's one more, anyway....

The X-T seems like a pretty versatile omni in general based on your usage comments.


 

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