Topic: Suggest T-mic for Sony PCM-M10

[jj69]

After getting fed up with a failing MicroTrack II and a disappointing sojourn with a Tascam DR-03, I just got a Sony PCM-M10 for concert recording - typically loud rock bands in clubs. 

With the MTII, I was using this Olympus ME-51S T-mic, plugged directly into the MTII's mic input with surprisingly good results:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/496651-REG/Olympus_145037_ME_51S_Stereo_Microphone.html

The mic is obviously designed for voice recording/dictation.  I think it's just dumb luck that it happened to be  good synergistic match with the MTII.  However, using the same mic with the Sony, I'm getting very bright recordings that seem to have unnaturally boosted treble, and very little bottom end. 

My guess is that there is some kind of impedance mismatch between the Olympus and the Sony's mic preamp, so I'll have to go with another mic.  I'm looking for suggestions. 

Please note that I DO NOT LIKE wires all over the place.  I like the idea of plugging a mic into the Sony, setting the levels, and leaving it on a cocktail table for the rest of the night.  I do not want wires running to mics and battery boxes.  I realize, of course, this seriously limits my choices.  The only really high quality T-mic I can find is the SPSM-1 by Sound Professionals, shown here:

http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-SPSM-1

Would this mic, used through the Sony's mic input, be an improvement?  Or would it likely produce the same results as the Olympus I'm already using? 

If it helps, the impedance of the Sony's mic input is 22 kOhms, while the MTII was 2.2 kOhms.  The impedance of the Olympus mic is 2.2 kOhms, but the impedance of the Sound Professionals mic appears to not be published on their site. 

[monkeyguy]

not a huge selection with what your looking for...
ive used this mic (well the old version ECM-717) many a time to record loud rock concerts straight (single wire) into Sony M10
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/283490-REG/Sony_ECM719_ECM_719_Stereo_Electret.html

or theres this which plugs straight into but never used...but have heard some ok recordings in the past
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/225510-REG/Sony_ECMDS70P_ECM_DS70P_Mic_for.html

[jj69]

Thanks for the links.  The second one looks interesting.  I wonder how it would compare with the Sound Professionals? 

[acidjack]

The problem with these T mics is, as you note, they're not designed for music recording, which begs the question of, why you are using them for music recording to begin with, other than convenience.  Although as you say, you apparently were happy with the T-mic and the MTII, but I have to agree with you that that seems to be just dumb luck.  You results with the M10 sound more typical.

The published specs of the Sonys are terrible and the actual results of them tend to be, in my opinion, even worse.  The SP mic has better published specs, but I'd worry about that 105dB max SPL limit that it has.  While that - or the higher 120 it lists if you use a battery box - is technically sufficient, I would worry about that mic overloading. 

I don't know if he still does it, but I believe Chris Church/Church Audio will do a "T" version of the CA-11 mics that he makes, which are actually designed for concert recording and are infinitely better than the products mentioned.

Otherwise, before I used one of those mics, I'd use the internal mics on the M10.  I've never used them, but people say they're pretty good.

[jj69]

Thanks for the info.  That's pretty much what I expected to hear.  I did just talk to Sound Professionals, and they recommended this one over any of the T-mics:

http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-PSM-6

It's basically a powered breakout box with the mics built into the sides.  I would have to deal with one wire from the box to the Sony, but I might be able to live with that.  What do you guys think? 

I'll look into the Church t-mic as well, but I've never seen one. 

[acidjack]

Their literature says it's designed for recording high SPL, which is a plus.  However, it also looks somewhat hard to mount... where are you imagining this being?   

Before I put any money into that, I'd still ask into the Church T-mic.  I'm 100% positive that will work for concert recording, and cannot say the same for the SP product in this particular case. 

I'd also still give the internal mics a go.

I assume you're allergic to wires because you're trying to be very stealthy?  Again, if so, where are you mounting your mics now?

[jj69]

I'm more lazy than stealthy.  I just like a one-box solution.  I generally just leave the recorder on a cocktail table and forget about it.  Since it's inside a canvas case it doesn't really look much different from a cell phone or camera case.  I doubt anyone even notices the little t-mic sticking out of it. 

With the PSM-6, I figure I can just leave the black box on the table and run the cable into the canvas case. 

The problem I see with the CA-11 T-mic is that I would still need a battery or pre box.  That means two wires, which is pushing it for me.  The beauty of a t-mic is that it just plugs into the top of the unit - no wires needed. 

[acidjack]

In that case, the PSM-6 seems like it could be ideal for you. I doubt anyone on this board has tried it, but based on your description I think it would work.  It's self-powered, can handle high SPL, and presumably is made from decent components.  The only thing I'd still wonder is whether the M10 internals would do as good a job!

[jj69]

That's a good question about the internals.  My guess is that the answer is no, but I'll give it a shot tomorrow night.  I'm taping a rock show at a venue with outstanding acoustics, so I'll give it a try with just the internals. 

[anr]

acidjack suggested using the Sony internals and I'd support that.   Given your self imposed limitations, which I fully understand, you'll be pleasantly surprised. 

I am often asked to edit recordings and quite recently I've done a few shows recorded with a PCM-M10 / internals.  Believe me, there wasn't much work to do, they were superb. 

Regards

[jj69]

Thanks Anr.  I'm going to try the internals tonight. 

What do you think of the Sound Professionals PSM-6?:

http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-PSM-6

Would that be an upgrade over the Sony's internals, or do you think it would be more of a sideways move? 

[anr]

jj69

Just my personal opinion, but I'd skip the T-Mic idea if you have a PCM-M10.  I think the quality of the M10 internals is a step beyond other models like the RO-9 or H2.  As a single piece, "point, press and leave" recording system, it takes a lot of beating. 

[jj69]

I just got back from the show tonight.   I used the internals.  I've only listened to a bit of the recording, but what I got was a lot of muddy bass.  This is in a room with superb acoustics/superb PA, and in which I have never had to use a low cut filter with the Olympus/MTII combo.  I'm not sure what's going on here.  Perhaps the Olympus didn't have the frequency range to pick up the low frequencies at all? 

Or, perhaps the volume from the PA was overloading the Sony's internal mics?  The Sony's input level knob is labeled from 1 to 10, and I had to set it at 1 to record at the suggested -12 dB on the Sony's meters.  Is that normal?  I was recording a rock band, but the volume was at a comfortable level.  The show ended only a few hours ago and there's no ringing in my ears. 

Wouldn't the powered Sound Professionals mic, used through the Line In, be a big improvement just by giving me a lot more dynamic range to play with?: 

http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-PSM-6

[acidjack]

Those Sony internals shouldn't overload if they mic sensitivity, etc. is set to LOW, I wouldn't think.

But yes, I am quite certain that the SP mic you were looking into, running line-in, definitely won't.

[jj69]

Yes, the mic input was definitely set to LOW.  I double-checked it at the gig.  I just found it odd that the volume in the room was not earsplitting, yet I could turn the Sony's input level knob only up to 1 (out of 10). 

I did not have the low cut filter on (I've never used one before).  I'm not sure if it would have helped.  Does anyone know at what frequency the Sony's internal LCF begins to roll off bass?  It's not listed in the manual.