Author Topic: Suggest T-mic for Sony PCM-M10 (Read 9188 times)

jj69 · « **on:** July 18, 2011, 12:33:19 AM »

After getting fed up with a failing MicroTrack II and a disappointing sojourn with a Tascam DR-03, I just got a Sony PCM-M10 for concert recording - typically loud rock bands in clubs.

With the MTII, I was using this Olympus ME-51S T-mic, plugged directly into the MTII's mic input with surprisingly good results:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/496651-REG/Olympus_145037_ME_51S_Stereo_Microphone.html

The mic is obviously designed for voice recording/dictation. I think it's just dumb luck that it happened to be good synergistic match with the MTII. However, using the same mic with the Sony, I'm getting very bright recordings that seem to have unnaturally boosted treble, and very little bottom end.

My guess is that there is some kind of impedance mismatch between the Olympus and the Sony's mic preamp, so I'll have to go with another mic. I'm looking for suggestions.

Please note that I DO NOT LIKE wires all over the place. I like the idea of plugging a mic into the Sony, setting the levels, and leaving it on a cocktail table for the rest of the night. I do not want wires running to mics and battery boxes. I realize, of course, this seriously limits my choices. The only really high quality T-mic I can find is the SPSM-1 by Sound Professionals, shown here:

http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-SPSM-1

Would this mic, used through the Sony's mic input, be an improvement? Or would it likely produce the same results as the Olympus I'm already using?

If it helps, the impedance of the Sony's mic input is 22 kOhms, while the MTII was 2.2 kOhms. The impedance of the Olympus mic is 2.2 kOhms, but the impedance of the Sound Professionals mic appears to not be published on their site.

monkeyguy · « **Reply #1 on:** July 18, 2011, 04:52:43 AM »

not a huge selection with what your looking for...
ive used this mic (well the old version ECM-717) many a time to record loud rock concerts straight (single wire) into Sony M10
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/283490-REG/Sony_ECM719_ECM_719_Stereo_Electret.html

or theres this which plugs straight into but never used...but have heard some ok recordings in the past
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/225510-REG/Sony_ECMDS70P_ECM_DS70P_Mic_for.html

jj69 · « **Reply #2 on:** July 18, 2011, 09:30:23 AM »

Thanks for the links. The second one looks interesting. I wonder how it would compare with the Sound Professionals?

acidjack · « **Reply #3 on:** July 18, 2011, 11:20:18 AM »

The problem with these T mics is, as you note, they're not designed for music recording, which begs the question of, why you are using them for music recording to begin with, other than convenience. Although as you say, you apparently were happy with the T-mic and the MTII, but I have to agree with you that that seems to be just dumb luck. You results with the M10 sound more typical.

The published specs of the Sonys are terrible and the actual results of them tend to be, in my opinion, even worse. The SP mic has better published specs, but I'd worry about that 105dB max SPL limit that it has. While that - or the higher 120 it lists if you use a battery box - is technically sufficient, I would worry about that mic overloading.

I don't know if he still does it, but I believe Chris Church/Church Audio will do a "T" version of the CA-11 mics that he makes, which are actually designed for concert recording and are infinitely better than the products mentioned.

Otherwise, before I used one of those mics, I'd use the internal mics on the M10. I've never used them, but people say they're pretty good.

jj69 · « **Reply #4 on:** July 18, 2011, 11:41:27 AM »

Thanks for the info. That's pretty much what I expected to hear. I did just talk to Sound Professionals, and they recommended this one over any of the T-mics:

http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-PSM-6

It's basically a powered breakout box with the mics built into the sides. I would have to deal with one wire from the box to the Sony, but I might be able to live with that. What do you guys think?

I'll look into the Church t-mic as well, but I've never seen one.

acidjack · « **Reply #5 on:** July 18, 2011, 11:45:49 AM »

Their literature says it's designed for recording high SPL, which is a plus. However, it also looks somewhat hard to mount... where are you imagining this being?

Before I put any money into that, I'd still ask into the Church T-mic. I'm 100% positive that will work for concert recording, and cannot say the same for the SP product in this particular case.

I'd also still give the internal mics a go.

I assume you're allergic to wires because you're trying to be very stealthy? Again, if so, where are you mounting your mics now?

jj69 · « **Reply #6 on:** July 18, 2011, 11:55:00 AM »

I'm more lazy than stealthy. I just like a one-box solution. I generally just leave the recorder on a cocktail table and forget about it. Since it's inside a canvas case it doesn't really look much different from a cell phone or camera case. I doubt anyone even notices the little t-mic sticking out of it.

With the PSM-6, I figure I can just leave the black box on the table and run the cable into the canvas case.

The problem I see with the CA-11 T-mic is that I would still need a battery or pre box. That means two wires, which is pushing it for me. The beauty of a t-mic is that it just plugs into the top of the unit - no wires needed.

acidjack · « **Reply #7 on:** July 18, 2011, 01:08:42 PM »

In that case, the PSM-6 seems like it could be ideal for you. I doubt anyone on this board has tried it, but based on your description I think it would work. It's self-powered, can handle high SPL, and presumably is made from decent components. The only thing I'd still wonder is whether the M10 internals would do as good a job!

jj69 · « **Reply #8 on:** July 18, 2011, 02:09:32 PM »

That's a good question about the internals. My guess is that the answer is no, but I'll give it a shot tomorrow night. I'm taping a rock show at a venue with outstanding acoustics, so I'll give it a try with just the internals.

anr · « **Reply #9 on:** July 19, 2011, 01:44:14 AM »

acidjack suggested using the Sony internals and I'd support that. Given your self imposed limitations, which I fully understand, you'll be pleasantly surprised.

I am often asked to edit recordings and quite recently I've done a few shows recorded with a PCM-M10 / internals. Believe me, there wasn't much work to do, they were superb.

Regards

jj69 · « **Reply #10 on:** July 19, 2011, 09:17:15 AM »

Thanks Anr. I'm going to try the internals tonight.

What do you think of the Sound Professionals PSM-6?:

http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-PSM-6

Would that be an upgrade over the Sony's internals, or do you think it would be more of a sideways move?

anr · « **Reply #11 on:** July 20, 2011, 01:53:08 AM »

jj69

Just my personal opinion, but I'd skip the T-Mic idea if you have a PCM-M10. I think the quality of the M10 internals is a step beyond other models like the RO-9 or H2. As a single piece, "point, press and leave" recording system, it takes a lot of beating.

jj69 · « **Reply #12 on:** July 20, 2011, 02:17:45 AM »

I just got back from the show tonight. I used the internals. I've only listened to a bit of the recording, but what I got was a lot of muddy bass. This is in a room with superb acoustics/superb PA, and in which I have never had to use a low cut filter with the Olympus/MTII combo. I'm not sure what's going on here. Perhaps the Olympus didn't have the frequency range to pick up the low frequencies at all?

Or, perhaps the volume from the PA was overloading the Sony's internal mics? The Sony's input level knob is labeled from 1 to 10, and I had to set it at 1 to record at the suggested -12 dB on the Sony's meters. Is that normal? I was recording a rock band, but the volume was at a comfortable level. The show ended only a few hours ago and there's no ringing in my ears.

Wouldn't the powered Sound Professionals mic, used through the Line In, be a big improvement just by giving me a lot more dynamic range to play with?:

http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-PSM-6

acidjack · « **Reply #13 on:** July 20, 2011, 10:39:28 AM »

Those Sony internals shouldn't overload if they mic sensitivity, etc. is set to LOW, I wouldn't think.

But yes, I am quite certain that the SP mic you were looking into, running line-in, definitely won't.

jj69 · « **Reply #14 on:** July 20, 2011, 12:54:37 PM »

Yes, the mic input was definitely set to LOW. I double-checked it at the gig. I just found it odd that the volume in the room was not earsplitting, yet I could turn the Sony's input level knob only up to 1 (out of 10).

I did not have the low cut filter on (I've never used one before). I'm not sure if it would have helped. Does anyone know at what frequency the Sony's internal LCF begins to roll off bass? It's not listed in the manual.

jj69 · « **Reply #15 on:** July 20, 2011, 11:22:40 PM »

Just a quick update. I was listening to the recording I made in Adobe Audition. The only way I can eliminate the bass boom is to turn down all the frequencies between 80hz and 200hz. The result is vastly improved, but still not a perfect result. It appears to be the bass guitar. However, there was absolutely no problem with the sound at the actual gig. The mix was outstanding and the sound crystal clear. I've never had an issue in this venue.

I have no idea what caused this. Could it be the mic was overloaded?

Church-Audio · « **Reply #16 on:** July 20, 2011, 11:55:44 PM »

Quote from: jj69 on July 20, 2011, 12:54:37 PM

Yes, the mic input was definitely set to LOW. I double-checked it at the gig. I just found it odd that the volume in the room was not earsplitting, yet I could turn the Sony's input level knob only up to 1 (out of 10).

I did not have the low cut filter on (I've never used one before). I'm not sure if it would have helped. Does anyone know at what frequency the Sony's internal LCF begins to roll off bass? It's not listed in the manual.

Reducing bass does not help with distortion. Reducing distortion must happen at the capsule end. Its a myth that using a LPF will help with distortion.

jj69 · « **Reply #17 on:** July 21, 2011, 12:11:29 AM »

Thanks Chris. What do you think is going on with the internal mics?

SparkE! · « **Reply #18 on:** July 21, 2011, 11:07:40 AM »

Quote from: Church-Audio on July 20, 2011, 11:55:44 PM

Quote from: jj69 on July 20, 2011, 12:54:37 PM
Yes, the mic input was definitely set to LOW. I double-checked it at the gig. I just found it odd that the volume in the room was not earsplitting, yet I could turn the Sony's input level knob only up to 1 (out of 10).

I did not have the low cut filter on (I've never used one before). I'm not sure if it would have helped. Does anyone know at what frequency the Sony's internal LCF begins to roll off bass? It's not listed in the manual.

Reducing bass does not help with distortion. Reducing distortion must happen at the capsule end. Its a myth that using a LPF will help with distortion.

Correct, unless the "distortion" is actually brick walling where the front end of the signal chain is overloaded by the mic signal. In that case an EXTERNAL high pass (bass rolloff) filter may help, but not because the low frequencies actually are the source of the problem. It helps because it reduces the overall signal level if you cut out the bass frequencies. Heck, it would help to cut any part of the signal spectrum, but bass is what most people cut because it's easy to do and easy to boost in post.

Whatever the case, Sony is notorious for producing portable equipment that easily overloads in the front end. I do not know about your particular unit, but on the older PCM-M1 and many other Sony recorders, you want to use a gain setting of between 5 and 10 on the level control. If you have to go down to 1 in order to avoid clipping at the input to the A/D, you are amost CERTAIN to be clipping in the front end. In that case, you need to use a less sensitive input for your signal. Most people use the line input for their external mic signals.

As far as what's going on with your internal mics, I'm betting they are in the same signal path as you'd have if connecting external mics to the mic input. If so, they simply are not designed for higher sound pressure levels like you get when recording loud, live music.

acidjack · « **Reply #19 on:** July 21, 2011, 11:20:07 AM »

I'm just surprised that the Sony M10 mics distort so easily, given that I've seen more than a few people on this board recommend using them in a pinch. I have to assume they are as good or better than the horrendous internal mics in the R-09 or the Zoom recorders, and people post those recordings regularly. From time to time they do have some brickwalling, but nothing to the extent the OP is talking about.

aaronji · « **Reply #20 on:** July 21, 2011, 12:10:53 PM »

Sony specs the internals as handling a max of 123 dBSPL. By contrast, that SP-PSM-6 lists a max of 120 dB...

My guess is that the mics distorted and not the recorder. guysonic posted that the M10's mic input can handle a 2 dBu signal and I recently taped a quite loud show (Rush) using fairly sensitive mics (DPA 4060s) with no clipping or distortion.

jj69 · « **Reply #21 on:** July 21, 2011, 12:21:25 PM »

Thanks for the input guys, but I'm starting to get a bit confused. I think what you're saying is that an external mic with batter power fed through the Sony's Line In should be the solution?

su6oxone · « **Reply #22 on:** July 21, 2011, 01:06:45 PM »

Quote from: jj69 on July 21, 2011, 12:21:25 PM

I think what you're saying is that an external mic with batter power fed through the Sony's Line In should be the solution?

Bingo... Get a nice pair of mics and a small preamp/battery box and you'll be good to go. These smaller electret mics seem to need a "4.7k mod" that was developed by Church Audio to avoid distortion. CA-11 and CA-14 seem to be the most popular choices, but you can also go with Sound Professionals (with the "low sensitivity mod"), but they tend to cost more but not sound better (but have more switchable cap patterns).

jj69 · « **Reply #23 on:** July 21, 2011, 03:01:27 PM »

The one that appeals to me the most is the Sound Professionals PSM-6 I linked above. Would that work?

My understanding is that it is two omni mics that are actually built into battery box to make one small, self-contained unit for $99.

I'm sure the CA mics are superior, but they would just be too many wires and boxes for me, and they do cost more. Given my propensity for a one-box solution, I'm not inclined to deal with any more than 1 more box and 1 more wire.

Church-Audio · « **Reply #24 on:** July 21, 2011, 03:22:36 PM »

Quote from: jj69 on July 21, 2011, 03:01:27 PM

The one that appeals to me the most is the Sound Professionals PSM-6 I linked above. Would that work?

My understanding is that it is two omni mics that are actually built into battery box to make one small, self-contained unit for $99.

I'm sure the CA mics are superior, but they would just be too many wires and boxes for me, and they do cost more. Given my propensity for a one-box solution, I'm not inclined to deal with any more than 1 more box and 1 more wire.

I could build capsules into anything, but just because you can does not mean you should. I make a stereo T mic but its not something I would recommend for concert taping but I have sold it to customers that insist on using it for that reason. I have heard some ok recordings the real issue is stereo separation and the total lack of ability to place the microphone properly. For many reasons.. Wires and boxes aside there is a reason why I build things the way I do. I could sell lots of preamps with built in mics and i am sure people would buy them but for concert recording its not something that would be of much use. Most of these all in one solutions work great for certain situations but concert recording is usually not one of them.

acidjack · « **Reply #25 on:** July 21, 2011, 05:29:34 PM »

None of these replies really explain (or even seek to explain) why the M10s distorted in this case. Again, as aaronji points out they are rated for higher SPL than the "t" mic the OP is talking about buying from SP. I realize those SPL ratings are often inaccurate, but that's probably true of the SP mic too.

What kind of a show was this? Death metal? Extremely loud?

If you do what I did, and use the TS.com search function for "M10 internals" you will find numerous references to people using these to record shows and people being quite happy with them. I'm going to take a wild guess that everyone that recorded with them wasn't recording quiet chamber music.

Personally I would never use the M10 internals, but I would also not use a T-mic. It would benefit the OP to try and help diagnose the problem - especially if you are a user of M10 internals - rather than the usual, less-than-helpful TS.com advice of 'spend more money'. I am still not convinced that this product from Sound Professionals is better than the M10 internal mics. I am fairly certain that whatever Chris can come up with, including his t-mic, probably is.

ilduclo · « **Reply #26 on:** July 21, 2011, 06:10:07 PM »

I really doubt that the Sony should overload like this with the internals when properly set up. I have the d50 and have recorded some super loud noise shows using the internals. Is there a users group for the m10 and see what you can come up with. A lot of musicians use the "all in one boxes" to record their performances, the LS10, M10, all the Zoom units, etc. I have seen them in use at shows that are loud enough that my heavy construction type earplugs are not enough. Sounds to me like the m10 you have is either defective or it's not being set up correctly......

suggestion: read the manual, go to some shows that you don't really care what your recording sounds like, try a bunch of different settings and I'll bet you find one that works better. There's always a learning curve with most gear.

good luck!

ild

jj69 · « **Reply #27 on:** July 21, 2011, 08:03:53 PM »

Just to reiterate, the show was far from death-metal loud. It was a "classic rock" band in a very high end venue with a superb PA, skilled sound man, etc. The M10 was placed at a table near the middle-back of the room, which is probably 20 feet from the stage, and just about dead center between the PA speakers. The PA speakers are actually mounted above the lighting rig, quite high up. The volume was more than sufficient for a classic rock band, but not enough to leave your ears ringing after the show.

To be clear, I don't know if the mics necessarily overloaded. It could be another problem entirely. There is just a bass boom on the recording between 80hz-200hz that I did not hear in the room, and that I have never heard on other recordings made in the same room with the MTII/Olympus combo.

Personally, I don't put much faith in manufacturer published specs, especially from the mass-market companies. I don't think it makes sense to compare the SPL rating of a powered external mic to whatever Sony claims for the M10's mics.

As for trying different settings with the M10, I'm not aware of any changes I could possibly make aside from switching the LCF filter on. I had the mic sensitivity set to LOW, so switching it to HIGH would only make things worse. I set the input level knob at 1 so that the meters read -12db, which is the input level suggested in the manual. I don't think there's much else I could do unless you feel the LCF filter will make a significant difference.

jj69 · « **Reply #28 on:** July 21, 2011, 09:50:59 PM »

To give everyone a better idea of what I'm experiencing, I've decided to post some sound clips. If doing so violates any board rules, please feel free to delete this.

Below is a link to a 107MB zip file that contains three tracks in flac format, each about five minutes long. All three recordings have been normalized in Adobe Audition, but no EQ or any other processing has been done to them.

Link:
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=HQ2GCB95

Track 01 - Classic rock band recorded in a high end venue with excellent acoustics and superb PA system. Recorded with the MicroTrack II with an Olympus T-mic placed on a table in the mid-back of the room, dead center. This is an example of a recording I am very happy with.

Track 02 - Classic rock band recorded at an outdoor town festival with a mediocre rental PA. Recorded with the Sony PCM-M10 and the Olympus T-mic clipped to my shirt. I was standing about 20 feet from the right channel PA, which was very loud. This is the first recording I made with the Sony and I believe this is an example of the Olympus mic being overloaded.

Track 03 - Classic rock band recorded at the same venue and in the same location as Track 01, but this time with the Sony PCM-M10's internal mics, with mic input sensitivity set to low, and the meters set to the manufacturer recommended -12db. This is the recording we've been discussing with the bass boom between 80hz-200hz.

beatkilla · « **Reply #29 on:** July 21, 2011, 10:04:28 PM »

The m10 internal mics are omni and the other comparisons are all cardioid i beleive which would explain the bass response. Try rolling off some bass in post.Also i use the sony ecm 719 mic with a video camera and it can handle some very loud gigs and doesnt need any post production work so maybe that is a cheap solution.

dogmusic · « **Reply #30 on:** July 22, 2011, 07:12:34 AM »

Quote from: jj69 on July 21, 2011, 08:03:53 PM

The M10 was placed at a table

Perhaps it has something to do with reflections or vibrations from that table, making it so the M10 was not hearing what you were hearing.

fmaderjr · « **Reply #31 on:** July 22, 2011, 08:03:25 AM »

Quote from: SparkE! on July 21, 2011, 11:07:40 AM

Sony is notorious for producing portable equipment that easily overloads in the front end. I do not know about your particular unit, but on the older PCM-M1 and many other Sony recorders, you want to use a gain setting of between 5 and 10 on the level control. If you have to go down to 1 in order to avoid clipping at the input to the A/D, you are amost CERTAIN to be clipping in the front end. In that case, you need to use a less sensitive input for your signal. Most people use the line input for their external mic signals.

Sony corrected this issue with the M10. Guysonic reported that if the level control is at around 1 or above and the meters are peaking below 0 dB, you will not get brick wall distortion. If the M10 is set exactly at 1 it is certainly possible he brick walled, but not at all certain.

jj69 · « **Reply #32 on:** July 22, 2011, 07:53:24 PM »

Quote from: beatkilla on July 21, 2011, 10:04:28 PM

The m10 internal mics are omni and the other comparisons are all cardioid i beleive which would explain the bass response.

All of my mics are omnis.

jj69 · « **Reply #33 on:** July 26, 2011, 04:33:34 PM »

Just bumping this. Have any of you experts had a chance to listen to the sample clips I posed?

TIA

Author Topic: Suggest T-mic for Sony PCM-M10 (Read 9188 times)

ilduclo