Author Topic: Newbiw to get new gear- what to get for a max of 300 euros? (Read 9640 times)

nicolaidenmark · « **on:** February 28, 2013, 08:24:22 AM »

Hi all,

New to this forum and would appreciate some advice.

Over the years, I have done a couple of audience recordings using my Sony MZ710 (I believe it's called) MD and a sony ECM719 clip on mic.

I'm looking to do stealth recording and due to walking disability (caused by cerebral palsy) I need a new SIMPLE setup as my MD is starting to act weird.

Examples of a songs I have recorded with said equipment are these:

Bryan Adams- Live: (Everything I Do): http://www.filebox.com/ovztce4r90pg
Bryan Adams- Live: Hearts On Fire: http://www.filebox.com/yttw0izxt5j2

Closed indoor Arena that was sold out (6,000 in attendance).

Was sitting on BA's right hand side approximately 15 meters away is memory serves.

I should add that the recording you hear has had its volume increased and undergone a so-called "hard limiting" process.

Is my mic decent? (Stealth is required so the Clip-on feature of the 719 comes in handy when I clip it onto my jacket.

I hope to get at least equal but hopefully better quality with my new gear.

If, in any way, I have violated forum rules by uploading, I do apologize. Hoping someone will be able to help me out.

Ideally, I would like a recorder that records onto a removable media which I can store safely in a safe.

Thanks,

bryonsos · « **Reply #1 on:** February 28, 2013, 08:52:03 AM »

Pick up these:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=160798.0

And this to power them:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=160904.0

And a solid state recorder with both line and mic in. Here in the US, folks favor the Sony M10, but in Europe I believe one of the Olympus decks can be had more affordably.

nicolaidenmark · « **Reply #2 on:** February 28, 2013, 09:15:41 AM »

Forgot to add: I live in Denmark so links to UK/EU sites are preferred.

I prefer to buy new.

Here is some info on my current mic. It has been as "a good mic" by a guy working with sound recordings and sound editing:

http://reviews.cnet.com/microphones/sony-ecm-719-microphone/4505-6469_7-30548275.html

and

http://store.sony.com/p/ECM-719/en/p/ECM719

Concert is march 9th. So quick replies appreciated.

nicolaidenmark · « **Reply #3 on:** February 28, 2013, 02:08:43 PM »

Is there any way to get some decent mics (and what else is required) in a way that they would be in my hands (Denmark) by march five at the latest?

nicolaidenmark · « **Reply #4 on:** February 28, 2013, 02:18:11 PM »

Quote from: Jon Stoppable on February 28, 2013, 02:14:41 PM

OKM Soundman maybe . . .

Any good and which should I go for for recording live rock concerts?

earmonger · « **Reply #5 on:** February 28, 2013, 02:50:04 PM »

OKM mics are going to be way over the budget.

If you can still get those Church Audio mics from the Yard Sale, do it. They are excellent. It's two mics instead of one like your clipon Sony, but they are black (less visible against dark clothes than the Sony) and the sound will improve hugely.

Buying new will not give you as good a mic at anywhere near the same price--and if you order them directly from Church Audio, it will be weeks before he can get around to building them. Really, grab them, you won't regret it. People who sell here are generally dependable.

If those mics disappear, you should contact Soundprofessionals and see how quickly they can ship these little tiny mics (eraser-sized)
http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-BMC-2. Smaller than Church and much stealthier, a notch lower in sound quality, but still far better than the ECM-719.

And get a 9v or 12v battery box (or get the one that's also in the Yard Sale) to give you more headroom for loud music. You'd record mics-->battery box-->Line-in. The battery box gives the mic extra power so it can handle louder sounds without overloading, and it makes the mic sound better in general.

For a recorder, look into the Roland R-05, which is a lot cheaper in the EU than the beloved Sony PCM-M10. Or if you have a friend traveling through New York City, they could pick up the Sony PCM-M10 for about $200 (not Euros).

March 5 is a tough deadline. You could always track down a recorder now in Denmark, use your Sony mic and get new microphones after the gig. But if you can grab those Church Audio CA-14 mics, you're well on the way to much improved sound.

nicolaidenmark · « **Reply #6 on:** February 28, 2013, 02:57:35 PM »

Buying from Thomann, I can get the PCM-M10 for just 22 euros more then the R05. Which is better?

achalsey · « **Reply #7 on:** February 28, 2013, 03:33:36 PM »

Quote from: nicolaidenmark on February 28, 2013, 02:57:35 PM

Buying from Thomann, I can get the PCM-M10 for just 22 euros more then the R05. Which is better?

Both are quite good for the price. Most people here will say the M10, but for stealth recording the R05 may have a better design. Comes down personal preference. The M10 has a gain wheel on the side that cannot be locked. This is obviously potentially hazardous in your pocket. With the R05 all setting can be locked and the record button is big and in the middle. With the M10 all the buttons are the same size so you have to memorize which is the record button.

eman · « **Reply #8 on:** February 28, 2013, 05:52:12 PM »

M10 users haven't been reporting trouble with the gain wheel moving in pocket. It hasn't happened to me yet in a dozen stealth recordings. The battery life is pretty awesome, easily record an all day festival with a pair of rechargeable NiMH's. Also I don't think you are going to use for recording off a board but I believe the M10 will accommodate a pretty hot signal.

F.O.Bean · « **Reply #9 on:** February 28, 2013, 05:58:45 PM »

stevetoney · « **Reply #10 on:** February 28, 2013, 09:58:13 PM »

get the m10 hands down. The internal mics will even work well for you until your chutch audio mics arrive.

Believe the others. So many people have used this same rig and they are all happy... you will be happy too.

nicolaidenmark · « **Reply #11 on:** March 01, 2013, 05:04:29 AM »

Can I get same audio quality or better with the M10's internal mics as the clips, I've uploaded?

Thing is: the 300 euro budget includes everything- also mics and so on.

Can someone link to a rock concert, they've recorded using the M10?

And will the internal mics of the M10 be better than my single ECM 719?

earmonger · « **Reply #12 on:** March 01, 2013, 04:24:45 PM »

A recording from the PCM-M10 will be as good as the mics going into it and the bitrate (how much computer information is recorded per second of music) of the recording. The PCM-M10 is capable of .wav recording and higher bitrates than your minidisc was.

The PCM-M10 internals are quite good, and probably have less background noise than the external Sony mic, but the easiest way to find out if you think they are better is to make a recording with both the internals and the ECM-719 and decide which you like best.

Here are a zillion recordings made with the PCM-M10.

http://archive.org/search.php?query=PCM-M10%20AND%20collection%3Aetree

But what you are hearing, overwhelmingly, is the sound of the microphone (and to a much lesser extent the preamp or battery box) and of the mix in the room. The recorder itself reproduces what it gets through the input.

You could also search for recordings made with your mic.

http://archive.org/search.php?query=ECM-719%20AND%20collection%3Aetree

Most dedicated live recordists use external mics, so I don't see an easy way to find good recordings from the built-ins on the PCM-M10--but try them when it arrives. Crank up your stereo and compare the ECM-719 to the built-ins.

nicolaidenmark · « **Reply #13 on:** March 02, 2013, 03:31:19 AM »

Regarding storage:

Recording in best possible quality, How many hours will the internal 4 GB be enough for? I worry about the fact that it only says "micro sd" and micro men. stick from sony. I would like it to take other storage media as well. Especially as I have heard that SD cards are unreliable.

Is the M10 very well built (buttons feel like quality etc.)

Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B) · « **Reply #14 on:** March 02, 2013, 03:58:34 AM »

You'll get about 4 hours at 24/48. No need to record at a higher quality. I have a 8GB microSD card in mine, but never really use it. I have found the internal memory to be 100% reliable. The microSD card has a tendency to not seat correctly. The M10 will tell you if it isn't reading it and you'll have to reseat it. Once you have it in there seated correctly you shouldn't have any further issues. You can remove it to transfer data quicker but I leave mine in for peace of mind on the rare occasions I need to use it.

The M10 is pretty solid for a consumer level device. I haven't seen anything nicer except pro level equipment.

I don't think the unlockable gain knob is an issue. It's firm enough that I've never had it move in my pocket, and the ability to lock the buttons and still be able to adjust the levels is very handy for stealth use. I usually hit record 10 minutes or so before the act goes on, and have my levels set to where I'd normally have them. Once the music gets to it's normal loudness I give a quick check to the levels and then put the M10 back in my pocket for the rest of the show.

nicolaidenmark · « **Reply #15 on:** March 02, 2013, 04:35:55 PM »

M10 ordered!

Can I get some pieces of advice regarding recording settings?

The acoustic gig (one guitarist, one pianist) will take place indoor and only approximately 1500 tickets was put up for sale- a small intimate concert.

I will be sitting on the third row center.

F.O.Bean · « **Reply #16 on:** March 03, 2013, 12:04:48 AM »

You can buy a 64gb microsdxc card that WILL work in your m10. You just have to format it in a windows machine first

at 24-Bit/44.1kHz, thats close to 66 hrs of runtime

nicolaidenmark · « **Reply #17 on:** March 03, 2013, 05:47:03 AM »

The M10 is compatible with MAC OSX, right?

achalsey · « **Reply #18 on:** March 03, 2013, 11:26:58 AM »

Quote from: nicolaidenmark on March 03, 2013, 05:47:03 AM

The M10 is compatible with MAC OSX, right?

Yes.

F.O.Bean · « **Reply #19 on:** March 04, 2013, 01:58:58 AM »

Quote from: nicolaidenmark on March 02, 2013, 03:31:19 AM

Regarding storage:

Recording in best possible quality, How many hours will the internal 4 GB be enough for? I worry about the fact that it only says "micro sd" and micro men. stick from sony. I would like it to take other storage media as well. Especially as I have heard that SD cards are unreliable.

Is the M10 very well built (buttons feel like quality etc.)

Sd cards are highly UNreliable

I COMPLETELY disagree with that statement. You can use a 64gb microsdxc card in an m10 if you format it in your PC first. I have a 32gb card and never take it out. Lot less to worry about. Just plug USB into m10 and PC and just wait a few mins, DONE!!!!

If you have a 4gb card and want to record at highest quality, which is 24/96, your card will last 2 hrs, that's IT!!!

F.O.Bean · « **Reply #20 on:** March 04, 2013, 02:00:05 AM »

And FWIW! I switched from recording at 24/48 to 24/44.1 because it saves me 20+ mins of post editing and I surely can't hear a difference.

nicolaidenmark · « **Reply #21 on:** March 04, 2013, 03:04:24 AM »

With the card being FAT32 (max file size 1 GB, right), what happens if my recording gets bigger than 1 GB? Will it just create another file and will this happen totally seamlessly?

ScoobieKW · « **Reply #22 on:** March 04, 2013, 03:36:23 AM »

Quote from: nicolaidenmark on March 04, 2013, 03:04:24 AM

With the card being FAT32 (max file size 1 GB, right), what happens if my recording gets bigger than 1 GB? Will it just create another file and will this happen totally seamlessly?

Yes, and the M10 will record seamlessly between the memory card and the 4 gig internal memory, HOWEVER, you must enable cross memory recording in the menus.

aaronji · « **Reply #23 on:** March 04, 2013, 08:48:28 AM »

Quote from: nicolaidenmark on March 04, 2013, 03:04:24 AM

With the card being FAT32 (max file size 1 GB, right), what happens if my recording gets bigger than 1 GB? Will it just create another file and will this happen totally seamlessly?

FAT32 maximum file size is 4 GB, but the max on the M10 is 2 GB (at which point it creates a new file)...

nicolaidenmark · « **Reply #24 on:** March 04, 2013, 10:23:07 AM »

Ordered MicroSD 16 GB. Now to live with the fact, That I cannot record with the internal mice when in a crowd. Unless I tape it to my chest in some kind of pouch.

earmonger · « **Reply #25 on:** March 04, 2013, 03:29:29 PM »

You can always use your Sony mic.

nicolaidenmark · « **Reply #26 on:** March 05, 2013, 03:23:19 AM »

Of course. However, I was hoping that the internal mics of the M10 would be superior:

M10 mics: https://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-audio/cat-recorders/product-PCMM10%2FB/

ECM719: http://store.sony.com/p/ECM-719/en/p/ECM719#specifications

Opinions?

George · « **Reply #27 on:** March 05, 2013, 08:17:46 AM »

Can't speak for either microphone (never used the internals). I would recommend putting out a feeler (ISO=In Search Of) in the yard sale and see if you can pick up a used, good starter pair of mikes.

earmonger · « **Reply #28 on:** March 05, 2013, 11:04:31 PM »

It depends on what you are recording. The other night at a show I tried to record through the internals for you--but it was a loud gig and the bass completely overloaded the mics. Unlistenable. But I have gotten very nice recordings with the internals under quieter conditions.

The ECM-719 gets around the bass overload by basically blocking a lot of bass and having low sensitivity. Look at its frequency response specs--the bottom note of a piano is 27.5 Hz, way lower than the Sony mic's 100 Hz. (Each octave doubles the number of Hz--the next octave down from 100 is 50, and then 25, so you're losing the lower two octaves of bass. Ears pick up 20-20,000 Hz.)

However, better mics--are those CA-14 still around?-- and a battery box would let you record through line-in without overloading. The battery power makes the mics themselves able to handle more volume, and going through line-in bypasses the built-in mic preamp that can also overload. So you would get much more full-bodied sound, with more bass recorded in high fidelity. For instance, I recently went to an electronic dance music show with outboard mics (old Church Audio) and a battery box, and got a very good recording with no bass overload, subwoofers and all. A good mic recording in mp3 sounds better than a bad mic recording at CD quality, if you ask me.

nicolaidenmark · « **Reply #29 on:** March 06, 2013, 04:26:16 AM »

BTW: I've read something about the internal mics of the M10 being unevenly matched (one recording a little louder than the other). Is this something I should worry about here in 2013 or have the newest batch of M10s had this fault corrected by Sony?

earmonger · « **Reply #30 on:** March 06, 2013, 11:06:39 PM »

With mics, through line-in--not internal mics--I find my left channel a little hotter, at least according to the meter. But whether that is the mics, the battery box or the PCM-M10 is completely unknown. It could be happening anywhere in the chain, and it has nothing to do with internal mics.

Meanwhile, in playback, I don't hear it. This is probably one of those things that instruments can detect but humans needn't bother themselves about.

nicolaidenmark · « **Reply #31 on:** March 07, 2013, 05:00:21 AM »

It seems the recorder will not arrive before the show. If it does however, having a seat (third row centre) how should I hold/ place the recorder for best sound? In my hands or put it on my legs?

earmonger · « **Reply #32 on:** March 07, 2013, 10:03:10 AM »

The microphones are on the upper corners--you'll see them. The higher up they are, the better, since there are fewer bodies blocking the sound. Put your ears at lap level sometime during a concert and you'll hear the difference.

But in your hands could mean handling noise, so better to keep it still somehow. It's made to lie on its back on a table; there are little rubber feet.

The PCM-M10 does have a place for a strap (lower right) and there's a strap in the package, so conceivably you could hang it (upside down) around your neck, or hang it from something. It also has a threaded hole on the back for a tripod mount.

The internal mics are omnis, which means that you have some flexibility about where you place them--they don't have to be pointed directly at the sound source. Wherever it sounds good to your ears is where it should be. But you'd probably get a decent recording even from your lap.

F.O.Bean · « **Reply #33 on:** March 07, 2013, 03:19:52 PM »

Buy external mics and a battery box. you'll thank me later

Church Audio CA14[Cardioids/Omnis]>Battery Box>M10 is a killer rig for the price

In fact, check this comp out I made a few weeks back

Schoeps mk41 vs. CA14 mics!!!!

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=160937.0

nicolaidenmark · « **Reply #34 on:** March 11, 2013, 04:10:33 PM »

So, recorded first gig with M10 and I'm disappointed!

Recording level 2
Manual record settings
No Low cut filter

Sitting on second row centre, cinema style seats, Bryan's speaker just in front of me and the person in front of me.

Recorder placed between my legs, lying on my seat with mics facing the back back of the seat which was in front of me.

Recording is "wolly" and bas heavy. Needs bas reduction and some mid and treble added.

Using Audacity, what stages should I go through to improve the sound?

Step by step guide appreciated.

http://www.ng-translations.dk/Bryan%20Adams%202013%20TS%20sample.mp3

Alos, the recording levels (meter) of the internals seemed a little uneven at times, however, still much better than my ECM 719 mic.

aaronji · « **Reply #35 on:** March 12, 2013, 12:22:54 PM »

Quote from: nicolaidenmark on March 11, 2013, 04:10:33 PM

Recorder placed between my legs, lying on my seat with mics facing the back back of the seat which was in front of me.

I would think this is at least part of the reason you are disappointed. It will sound a lot better if you get the mics up higher (with a clear line-of-sight to the sound source)...

LikeASong · « **Reply #36 on:** March 12, 2013, 01:58:42 PM »

Quote from: aaronji on March 12, 2013, 12:22:54 PM

Quote from: nicolaidenmark on March 11, 2013, 04:10:33 PM
Recorder placed between my legs, lying on my seat with mics facing the back back of the seat which was in front of me.

I would think this is at least part of the reason you are disappointed. It will sound a lot better if you get the mics up higher (with a clear line-of-sight to the sound source)...

^ THAT.

Try to place the recorder somewhere around your ears' height (as if you wore the recorder mounted on a hat or something)... It will sound heaps better.

Author Topic: Newbiw to get new gear- what to get for a max of 300 euros? (Read 9640 times)

stevetoney