Topic: In order to make good tapes...

[drumminj]

...you must first make bad tapes.

Yes, yes, yes.  I've been making "bad" tapes for a while now, and hope to turn last night into a learning experience.  Hopefully y'all can help me figure out how I could have done things better so I can start making "good" tapes

I'm running at853rx->stock UA-5->JB3.  I know that, using small-diaphram mics like the 853 I'm not going to pull anything stellar, and the sound is going to be a bit more harsh.  Given that...

I ran the mics ORTF, FOB/DFC(well, actually, just below the SBD, as it's elevated above the rest of the bar), about 8 1/2 ft. off the ground, and maybe 20' from the PA/stage.  At that distance and the placement of the speakers, the mics were pointed pretty much directly at the PA.  Subs are underneath the stage on each side.  The PA speakers are suspended from the ceiling, angled downward.   If you shot a ray from the PA speakers (based on their angle downward) it would hit right about the level where my mics were that far back from the stage.  The mics were pointed straight outward, not angled up or down.  I didn't use any bass roll-off

The resulting tape is decent - good bass response, not much of a stereo image of the band(I think the PA is mixed mono), which I guess makes sense to me if the mics were pointed pretty much directly at the speakers.  The one thing that stands out on this tape is that the vocals aren't very strong in the recording, while they were nice and clear in the room.  Other instruments - guitar, drums, cymbals, keyboards - come through pretty clear, which confuses me.  Why would those come through clear, but not the vocals.  I would think perhaps the angle of the mics to the PA may have affected the pickup of certain frequencies, but there's definitely overlap between all those intstruments.  Giving it another listen, I guess the guitar is a little weak in the mix as well.

So what may help me walk out with a better tape?  Angle the mics slightly upward towards the PA?   Maybe a more narrow angle between the mics?

Any suggestions that don't inclue "buy a larger-diaphram mic" are greatly appreciated.  I'm toying with the idea of buying a pair of MC-012's or somesuch, but most places I tape I need a very unobtrusive setup - i can't run a stand.

Thanks.

J

[DaryanLenz]

While you may make a good tape every now and then, upgrading the mics is what is going to make the most difference.  I find the 853's not pleasing at all to my ears, and they sound "cheap" to me.  I have heard many more bad tapes made with them than good tapes.  If you are not wanting to upgrade to dpa's or audix mics, maybe look into moding the ua-5 and I would reccomend running din or xy instead!

D

[Chuck]

"The resulting tape is decent - good bass response, not much of a stereo image of the band(I think the PA is mixed mono), which I guess makes sense to me if the mics were pointed pretty much directly at the speakers.  The one thing that stands out on this tape is that the vocals aren't very strong in the recording, while they were nice and clear in the room.  Other instruments - guitar, drums, cymbals, keyboards - come through pretty clear, which confuses me.  Why would those come through clear, but not the vocals.  I would think perhaps the angle of the mics to the PA may have affected the pickup of certain frequencies, but there's definitely overlap between all those intstruments.  Giving it another listen, I guess the guitar is a little weak in the mix as well."

Another question I would ask is:
What did it sound like from where you were standing?
This is not trivial. In order to make a good tape you have to have good sound where you are taping from. Just moving a little forward, back, left or right can make a big difference. This is the most important thing I have learned initially from Doug Oade's postings, then from my own experience. Don't just assume it will sound good just anywhere. Experiment.

Good luck.

[Brian Skalinder]

In order to make a good tape you have to have good sound where you are taping from. Just moving a little forward, back, left or right can make a big difference.

I ran into this last night, taping at the Grog Shop here in Cleveland.  Crappy crappy crappy space for taping, and my first time to the venue since they changed locations.  I wandered around the room during the opening acts to find the image center.  Found it, all set.  Well, Luther Wright & The Wrongs come on stage and the image center has moved 3' to the left!  Doh...

[drumminj]

Another question I would ask is:
What did it sound like from where you were standing?
This is not trivial. In order to make a good tape you have to have good sound where you are taping from. Just moving a little forward, back, left or right can make a big difference. This is the most important thing I have learned initially from Doug Oade's postings, then from my own experience. Don't just assume it will sound good just anywhere. Experiment.

Unfortunately I got there too late to wander around during the opening band.  I did make a point to stand beneath my mics and listen critically, and I think it sounded fine.  One problem with this show is that the sound engineer mixes for his recording, rather than for the room(they recently adopted a no-SBD policy because they're working on a live album).  Hower, it did sound fine in the room, and did sound decent where my mics were placed.  Unfortunately I'm limited in this venue - I really can't have a stand in there, so I'm stuck where I can either tape or clamp my mics.

What you say - about moving around - makes sense when the mics will be at head-level.  But what if you're flying the mics above the noise-makers(aka people)?

[drumminj]

I have heard many more bad tapes made with them than good tapes.  If you are not wanting to upgrade to dpa's or audix mics, maybe look into moding the ua-5 and I would reccomend running din or xy instead!

I think it'd be hard to isolate the factors going into "bad" tapes made with the 853s.  I would imagine most of the people running them are "beginner" tapers who are still trying to get the technique down (like myself) and not running very clean Pre's (many into MD, I've found).  I somewhat agree with your assessment on the sound of them, though - I think they're a bit too harsh and thin-sounding.  Though, I haven't come across a tape made with them that's been done "right" so I can hear what they're capable of.  I have no delusions that I am getting the best tapes I can with them.  Also, I have not heard a tape of 853s into a "quality" preamp.  The plan all along has been to get the UA-5 warm-modded somewhere down the road.  At some point I need to track someone down in the area who has one so I can see how it sounds.  I'll try X-Y next week with same band/venue/location and see how it compares.

Thanks

J

[Chuck]

What you say - about moving around - makes sense when the mics will be at head-level.  But what if you're flying the mics above the noise-makers(aka people)?

I always bring headphones with me. I've seen many discussions of good reasons to bring or not bring headphones. To me, it just makes sense to listen for a bit through the phones to make sure everything sounds OK. I  recorded a couple hours of static once, not knowing I fried my right channel ijn my mic-pre before the show by not monitoring. Anyway...
You can hear the difference in placement by moving the stand height up/down while monitoring. Ideally during the opening act, but I've successfully raised or lowered my mics with no negative affects several times.

[leegeddy]

I have heard many more bad tapes made with them than good tapes.  If you are not wanting to upgrade to dpa's or audix mics, maybe look into moding the ua-5 and I would reccomend running din or xy instead!

I think it'd be hard to isolate the factors going into "bad" tapes made with the 853s.  I would imagine most of the people running them are "beginner" tapers who are still trying to get the technique down (like myself) and not running very clean Pre's (many into MD, I've found).  I somewhat agree with your assessment on the sound of them, though - I think they're a bit too harsh and thin-sounding.  Though, I haven't come across a tape made with them that's been done "right" so I can hear what they're capable of.  I have no delusions that I am getting the best tapes I can with them.  Also, I have not heard a tape of 853s into a "quality" preamp.  The plan all along has been to get the UA-5 warm-modded somewhere down the road.  At some point I need to track someone down in the area who has one so I can see how it sounds.  I'll try X-Y next week with same band/venue/location and see how it compares.

Thanks

J

drumminj, i wouldn't discount the sound of the AT853 mics because of their size, price or a notion that they are "beginner" mics.  i've ran my mics (AT853) right next to KM140's and few AKG's.  upon listening to the tapes after the show, the owner of the KM140's was quite surprised at the sound that the "small diaphram" mics captured.

i would be more concerned with finding better taping locations than worrying about equipment at this point.

marc

[drumminj]

drumminj, i wouldn't discount the sound of the AT853 mics because of their size, price or a notion that they are "beginner" mics.  i've ran my mics (AT853) right next to KM140's and few AKG's.  upon listening to the tapes after the show, the owner of the KM140's was quite surprised at the sound that the "small diaphram" mics captured.

i would be more concerned with finding better taping locations than worrying about equipment at this point.

marc

Thanks Marc.  Any suggestions for that, then?  Is the consensus that the problem was the location as opposed to the mic setup?  In that venue, I really don't have much leeway(hmm...don't think I've ever typed that out before. sp?) in mic location, so I'm really looking for tips to help get the best results from a given location.  I suppose there are many factors involved in that, however...

[Chanher]

I have always thought that the general rule is "a crappy rig in a great location always beats a great rig in a crappy location."  So now it comes down to knowing your taping spots.  You say that most of the time you can't be running a stand.  That will hurt a lot.  So that should affect your decision.  I dunno, a safe bet is to spend a lot of time perfecting taping with the rig you already have and then if you are still anxious and eager to get better tapes than you know it will be worth the money to upgrade.

[nickgregory]

I still use 853s for my stealthing needs, and honestly, they perform relatively well....not 4022 like, but they are $2500 cheaper....I agree with everyone here...location is key... I have made some really bad 853 tapes due to the wrong location (Chili peppers with too much f'ing bass) and great tapes (Springsteen and Sheryl Crow)...just play around some......I think this will help you determine what your ears like from those mics!

[zhianosatch]

Size does not matter.

(Calling Tim Markham )

[goose]

My opinion - definitely not the fault of the mics.  I own the same mics and they do very well when used properly.  I have great sounding shows of Galactic, Govt Mule, and Garage A Trois (the 3 G's?) using those mics (all in the same room, different locations each time), each show using different equipment behind the mics.  I have run them to a power supply and transformers, and with an Oade m148 preamp, among others.  The shows sound really good.

Keep trying!!  You WILL end up with good results.  Feel free to PM me with questions and for tips.

[Tim]

Size does not matter.

(Calling Tim Markham )

my mics are bigger than your mics

I still make plenty of shitty tapes

go figure

[chuckcage]

Gotta agree with the idea that the more recording experience I put under my belt the more likely I am to get the most out of whatever it is that I'm running.  For a while I thought my C1000s were just crap and that I needed some kind of big upgrade to get something listenable.  Not true.  I'm sure those high dollar mics do sound better, but I can assure you that the last few recordings I made sound a lot better than the first few.

Chuck