Topic: intermittent problem with m10 inputs

[weroflu]

 ke4>littlebox>m10 and i only got one channel working.
ke4>m10, works fine.

moved the setup to another room and then the ke4's started working on both channels.
moved them back into original room and they still work.

4060's displaying original problem now, only one channel working. swapped channels on the cable side and still the same channel is not working, so it's not the mics.

i also swapped line out cables from littlebox to m10 with no change.

i gently removed the back panel from littlebox to look for shorts, but all the connections look good.

edit: just tried 4060's>m10. only one channel works.

maybe problem is with the m10 then. ke4's work fine direct in to m10.

[weroflu]

i think the m10 is toast. i'm having problems both with the line in and the mic input.

plugging the 4060's direct into mic input, only one channel works. if i put gentle upward pressure on the cable going into the mic in then both channels work, releasing pressure one channel works. the mic jack is broken

4060's>littlebox>m10 line in, still only one channel works.

grrrr.

i must have got a dog unit, because this thing is barely used. or maybe the service guy made things worse when he 'fixed' my line input.

do i want to deal with prosumer 3.55mm connectors anymore, probably not after this.

[DigiGal]

Sorry for your troubles, this is why I'll stick with recorders having XLR connectors.  Highly recommended feature for your next recorder purchase.  Look at it as a good reason to upgrade.

[kleiner Rainer]

Hi weroflu,

I suspect a crappy plug or interconnect. If the mic AND line jacks in the M10 are broken, then how does plugging in the KE4 mics repair it? That sounds not logical to me... The effect you describe is typical for a cold solder joint in those far east plugs: a blob of solder held in place by the injection molded plastic strain relief. As long as you dont stress it, it works 

I can recommend Cordial interconnects with REAN plugs: www.thomann.de/de/cordial_cfs_06_ww.htm

REAN is the lower cost brand from Neutrik...

Greetings,

Rainer

[kleiner Rainer]

  How does a new plug... a German sourced one at that... cure a badly soldered jack on the board? 

Hi Ben,

1) Thomann sells worldwide via internet. They even have multilangual product pages in their webshop.
2) Again: how does plugging in the KE4 mics cure the "badly soldered jack" on weroflus M10?

Greetings,

Rainer

[F.O.Bean]

Sorry for your troubles, this is why I'll stick with recorders having XLR connectors.  Highly recommended feature for your next recorder purchase.  Look at it as a good reason to upgrade.

I sold my 722 bc I LOVED my m10s so much. For what they are and their cost, IMHO, there is NOTHING better out there

[DigiGal]

Sorry for your troubles, this is why I'll stick with recorders having XLR connectors.  Highly recommended feature for your next recorder purchase.  Look at it as a good reason to upgrade.

I sold my 722 bc I LOVED my m10s so much. For what they are and their cost, IMHO, there is NOTHING better out there

Well that is certainly high praise for the m10 recorder.  I've just seen too many noisy or catastrophic 3.5mm jacks to even consider solely relying on a recorder having them as the primary input.  YMMV though, best of luck.

[adrianf74]

Kind of related -- and a warning that I've posted about this in the M10 thread -- but I've noticed the line input jack has lost its tightness on my deck.  1/8" right angle connector from the ugly battery box I have will "slip" out if a little tension is placed on the deck.  I've tested other cables (used between my 9100 and the M10 or even 10' extension cables and although they may be a smidge tighter, these other cables also don't feel secure.   When I try the mic input jack, it locks into place.   A little underwhelmed at the moment by the M10.

[adrianf74]

I've been well and duly chastised.  That said, do we know how many "in-out" reps your M10's line in jack has seen?  Could the contacts be loosing their spring at all from use... a sobering thought I must admit?  I do know not all pugs are actually machined *exactly* the same and small variations in dimensions might result in contact issues.  Perhaps that was where Rainer was coming from by pointing to another plug fabricator and could explain why the KE4 works.

Me, I'd still be interested in opening up an M10 to check it's layout.  Perhaps I'll try mine...

In my case, I haven't removed the r/a plug from the preamp between uses.  Now that I've switched to the battery box (most of my shows are amplified and loud to start with), I just noticed this (it was less noticable with the preamp).   I'm in the same boat... might open up my M10 to see how the 1/8" jack is conected and replace it if it's not too much of a PITA.

[anr]

The Edirol RO-9 had problems with jacks and ever since, regardless of recorder, I've got a 6" fly lead permanently plugged into the mic-in socket (which is the only one I use), and plug he lead from the battery box into the other end.  I tape the fly lead to the back of the M10 in such a way it minimises movement at the socket.  I'm afraid connectors like this, not just 3.5mm, are going to be the weak point of any similar design.  I agree with bean, the M10 is a superior product, very well designed and built. 

[bryonsos]

Kind of related -- and a warning that I've posted about this in the M10 thread -- but I've noticed the line input jack has lost its tightness on my deck.  1/8" right angle connector from the ugly battery box I have will "slip" out if a little tension is placed on the deck.  I've tested other cables (used between my 9100 and the M10 or even 10' extension cables and although they may be a smidge tighter, these other cables also don't feel secure.   When I try the mic input jack, it locks into place.   A little underwhelmed at the moment by the M10.

I have seen a few comments about mini jacks wearing out over time, not just in reference to the M10. I've taken the "ounce of prevention" approach to my M10 as a result. I use a RA cable, and minimize movement by routing the cable through a Velcro strap wrapped around the deck so the cable can barely move when I handle it. This also means there's never any tension on the connector. A rubber band would do this as well.

[kleiner Rainer]

Hi all,

as in other industrial products, jacks and plugs have tolerances. The TRS plug tip has a special form that helps to "lock" into the jack and provides a certain force against unwanted extraction. The jack has springy contacts that take up the tolerance between jack and plug. If you use a plug that is at the upper tolerance limit and a jack at the lower limit, it may happen that those contacts are permanently bent. There is also the possibility that the tip form is not as expected by the jack manufacturer and therefore the extraction force is low.

Personally, I prefer Neutrik connectors, since their quality is consistent and they have a reputation to lose, so I expect them to build to tight tolerances.

Risking an expensive recorders input jack with sub-par plugs is not what I consider a good idea. Both my M10 and my D50 see only Neutrik connectors at their inputs. Even at max gain and (carefully!) rotating the plug in the jack there are no noises or dropouts.

Other than using quality plugs, handling the components of your recording system with care is important. I have mics that I bought 25 years ago that are still in full working order. My WM-D6C of the same vintage looks like new, but the belts of the drive are getting old and lose their tension. Oh well, rubber ages...

Greetings,

Rainer

[adrianf74]

I have seen a few comments about mini jacks wearing out over time, not just in reference to the M10. I've taken the "ounce of prevention" approach to my M10 as a result. I use a RA cable, and minimize movement by routing the cable through a Velcro strap wrapped around the deck so the cable can barely move when I handle it. This also means there's never any tension on the connector. A rubber band would do this as well.

Oddly enough, all of this had been done because I'd come from the R09 (and was trying to prevent that from happening with that unit).  The jacks on the M10 just don't seem to be all that stable so I'm gonna have to replace the jack myself or get someone to do it.

[DigiGal]

Hi all,

as in other industrial products, jacks and plugs have tolerances. The TRS plug tip has a special form that helps to "lock" into the jack and provides a certain force against unwanted extraction. The jack has springy contacts that take up the tolerance between jack and plug. If you use a plug that is at the upper tolerance limit and a jack at the lower limit, it may happen that those contacts are permanently bent. There is also the possibility that the tip form is not as expected by the jack manufacturer and therefore the extraction force is low.

Personally, I prefer Neutrik connectors, since their quality is consistent and they have a reputation to lose, so I expect them to build to tight tolerances.

Risking an expensive recorders input jack with sub-par plugs is not what I consider a good idea. Both my M10 and my D50 see only Neutrik connectors at their inputs. Even at max gain and (carefully!) rotating the plug in the jack there are no noises or dropouts.

Other than using quality plugs, handling the components of your recording system with care is important. I have mics that I bought 25 years ago that are still in full working order. My WM-D6C of the same vintage looks like new, but the belts of the drive are getting old and lose their tension. Oh well, rubber ages...

Greetings,

Rainer

Unfortunately, there is no control over what type of jack a recorder manufacturer uses.  Mass built units, most likely the least expensive jack that fits their design.

...ahh save million dollars, we use cheap jack so product work when we ship then it fail they buy another!!!

[adrianf74]

as in other industrial products, jacks and plugs have tolerances. The TRS plug tip has a special form that helps to "lock" into the jack and provides a certain force against unwanted extraction. The jack has springy contacts that take up the tolerance between jack and plug. If you use a plug that is at the upper tolerance limit and a jack at the lower limit, it may happen that those contacts are permanently bent. There is also the possibility that the tip form is not as expected by the jack manufacturer and therefore the extraction force is low.

Personally, I prefer Neutrik connectors, since their quality is consistent and they have a reputation to lose, so I expect them to build to tight tolerances.

Risking an expensive recorders input jack with sub-par plugs is not what I consider a good idea. Both my M10 and my D50 see only Neutrik connectors at their inputs. Even at max gain and (carefully!) rotating the plug in the jack there are no noises or dropouts.

Other than using quality plugs, handling the components of your recording system with care is important. I have mics that I bought 25 years ago that are still in full working order. My WM-D6C of the same vintage looks like new, but the belts of the drive are getting old and lose their tension. Oh well, rubber ages...

+1 for Neutrik. That's what all my r/a plugs are.   I did some more testing and it looks as though the Neutrik r/a plug that was used is the culprit.  I tried plugging it into my laptop and it could easily come in and out.  Also tried it on some other jacks (including the 9100) and they weren't as secure as they should be... Now to get that fixed. 

[Todd R]

The jacks on the M10 just don't seem to be all that stable so I'm gonna have to replace the jack myself or get someone to do it.

I can't say myself whether this seems to be the case or not as I haven't used my M10 that much since getting it a few months back.  If it is the case though, it is too bad.  I got the M10 since I've had such a good experience with my D50.  I've had that for many years now and have given it a fair amount of use in the field.  The connectors on it have been great, and overall the recorder has been rock solid and is very well built.

As to 1/8" connectors, not great I suppose, but my D50 has been fine.  After many years of being able to trust it, I've now gone over so it is my main recorder.  I do this as a hobby, so while XLR connectors might be a better approach, I'd rather put the money in other parts of my rig.  If sometime the 1/8" connectors fail me in the field, it isn't a big deal since I'm just a hobbyist and almost certainly there are other tapers.  For that matter, I usually run the M10 as backup, so I'd probably have my own recording as well.

[cashandkerouac]

so far i've had no issues with my M10, but a buddy has had issues with his line-in jack.  it stopped working on one of his units with no visible damage and there doesn't appear to be an affordable fix.  if the jack goes the recorder is toast.   

[MIQ]

Unfortunately, there is no control over what type of jack a recorder manufacturer uses.  Mass built units, most likely the least expensive jack that fits their design.

...ahh save million dollars, we use cheap jack so product work when we ship then it fail they buy another!!!

Building consumer electronics is of course a balancing act between size, feature set, competitive products, cost, warranty, etc.   Product designers DO have control over what parts are used and spend quite a bit of time trying to optimize the parts based on the balancing act mentioned.  "Least Expensive" is almost always NOT the choice that is made, especially by makers with a brand to protect (ala Sony).  The least expensive choices are NOT worth the hassles in production, product returns, and damage to the brand.  If the maker is offering a warranty, (most reputable brands we deal with do), then the life of the jack is supposed to exceed the warranty time. 

If cheapest cost was always the deciding factor it would extend to the XLR jacks used by these same makers and the argument that everyone should just use recorders with XLRs would lead to the same issues. 

Taking a look at the products offered by Sony, Roland, etc and even the lower volume guys like Church and Niant shows products that offer 3.5mm jacks as an option for some of the connections.  They seem to be comfortable with the tradeoffs involved with using these jacks.  There are plenty of other threads on this board that discuss the plusses and minuses of 3.5mm TRS jacks.  There are arguments for and against ANY connector type.  I'm pretty sure every Walkman from the 1980's up to today’s MP3/FLAC players all use 3.5mm jacks for at least the headphone jack with success.  There will always be failures in the field, but the 3.5mm jack is not evil  in and of itself.  YMMV.

-MIQ

[DigiGal]

Unfortunately, there is no control over what type of jack a recorder manufacturer uses.  Mass built units, most likely the least expensive jack that fits their design.

...ahh save million dollars, we use cheap jack so product work when we ship then it fail they buy another!!!

Building consumer electronics is of course a balancing act between size, feature set, competitive products, cost, warranty, etc.   Product designers DO have control over what parts are used and spend quite a bit of time trying to optimize the parts based on the balancing act mentioned.  "Least Expensive" is almost always NOT the choice that is made, especially by makers with a brand to protect (ala Sony).  The least expensive choices are NOT worth the hassles in production, product returns, and damage to the brand.  If the maker is offering a warranty, (most reputable brands we deal with do), then the life of the jack is supposed to exceed the warranty time. 

If cheapest cost was always the deciding factor it would extend to the XLR jacks used by these same makers and the argument that everyone should just use recorders with XLRs would lead to the same issues. 

Taking a look at the products offered by Sony, Roland, etc and even the lower volume guys like Church and Niant shows products that offer 3.5mm jacks as an option for some of the connections.  They seem to be comfortable with the tradeoffs involved with using these jacks.  There are plenty of other threads on this board that discuss the plusses and minuses of 3.5mm TRS jacks.  There are arguments for and against ANY connector type.  I'm pretty sure every Walkman from the 1980's up to today’s MP3/FLAC players all use 3.5mm jacks for at least the headphone jack with success.  There will always be failures in the field, but the 3.5mm jack is not evil  in and of itself.  YMMV.

-MIQ

My last line was actually intended as an oversimplified joke.  Of course manufacturers have control over the quality of connector they use.  Sound Devices among some others actually do use high quality 3.5mm jacks on their products, ones that are probably easily obtainable/replaceable at that. 

Using 3.5mm input jacks like on the Sony m10 is just not something I'd rely on or recommend myself, especially for field use.  Running expensive mics like Schoeps etc. into one of these just doesn't make much sense to me, neither does Russian roulette but as you say YMMV.   

[Church-Audio]

Unfortunately, there is no control over what type of jack a recorder manufacturer uses.  Mass built units, most likely the least expensive jack that fits their design.

...ahh save million dollars, we use cheap jack so product work when we ship then it fail they buy another!!!

Building consumer electronics is of course a balancing act between size, feature set, competitive products, cost, warranty, etc.   Product designers DO have control over what parts are used and spend quite a bit of time trying to optimize the parts based on the balancing act mentioned.  "Least Expensive" is almost always NOT the choice that is made, especially by makers with a brand to protect (ala Sony).  The least expensive choices are NOT worth the hassles in production, product returns, and damage to the brand.  If the maker is offering a warranty, (most reputable brands we deal with do), then the life of the jack is supposed to exceed the warranty time. 

If cheapest cost was always the deciding factor it would extend to the XLR jacks used by these same makers and the argument that everyone should just use recorders with XLRs would lead to the same issues. 

Taking a look at the products offered by Sony, Roland, etc and even the lower volume guys like Church and Niant shows products that offer 3.5mm jacks as an option for some of the connections.  They seem to be comfortable with the tradeoffs involved with using these jacks.  There are plenty of other threads on this board that discuss the plusses and minuses of 3.5mm TRS jacks.  There are arguments for and against ANY connector type.  I'm pretty sure every Walkman from the 1980's up to today’s MP3/FLAC players all use 3.5mm jacks for at least the headphone jack with success.  There will always be failures in the field, but the 3.5mm jack is not evil  in and of itself.  YMMV.

-MIQ

My last line was actually intended as an oversimplified joke.  Of course manufacturers have control over the quality of connector they use.  Sound Devices among some others actually do use high quality 3.5mm jacks on their products, ones that are probably easily obtainable/replaceable at that. 

Using 3.5mm input jacks like on the Sony m10 is just not something I'd rely on or recommend myself, especially for field use.  Running expensive mics like Schoeps etc. into one of these just doesn't make much sense to me, neither does Russian roulette but as you say YMMV.

I use the best 3.5 mm jack money can buy right now. if you are going to stealth there is not much choice. I am going to think real hard about comming up with a new design for a super low profile 3.5 mm jack. because profile is one of the huge problems. I wish that for small recorders we would have used a locking connector but we did not adopt that as a standard. I use about 1000 or so Neutrik / Rean 3.5 connectors a year out of that I have had 2 failures in 9 years year. IF the gear is placed properly on the body these connectors can be reliable.