Topic: Do I get the Schoeps MK4, MK41's or MK5?

[Jonas Karlsson]

Hi!

Been reading a lot of threads on the board, regarding different caps in different situations. Some say this and some say that.

Been taping since 1992 but it wasn't until 2006-07 I started to really focus on mics. Therefore I'm kind of used trying to get to a good spot to tape.

Right now I use the Church CA14's (omni's and cardioid) and has gotten really great results with both (look me up at Dimeadozen as "jontebus"). I tend to always search for a good sounding spot in front of either of the PA's (left or right), but when using the cardioids I get a "thinner" sound and using the omni's I pick up too much crowdnoise. This means I spend more and more time in post trying to make the recordings sound more like a want them. Oh, I always STEALTH.

Therefore, I want to add a pair of Schoeps to my weapon of choice, and I would greatly appreciate any inputs of which capsule I should aim for.

I tape shows in smaller clubs (2-300 people) up to large hockeyarena's (8-10.000 in attendance) and I ALWAYS stand on the floor trying to get in line with the PA. Outside at festivals I tend to do the same. I get my mics at around 1.75 meters up, since I'm 1,82 meters tall, which avoids some crowd chatter - but not the clappers who clap over their heads.

I read the MK41's are great at longer distances, and crappy room acoustics etc - but that the MK4's are great at a good taping spot... I need a mic that will have good stereo image in my own setup (stealth, A+B).

Also, which capsule I should choose: is it a must to get hold of a "dead rat" or windstopper for use outdoors at a festival? Used the omni's this summer at a large Swedish Rock Festival and had no issues what so ever, but then again - I used the omni's....

Anything else you feel I should add to get answers or input - let me know!

Love to you all 

/Jonas "jontebus" Karlsson, Gothenburg, Sweden

[F.O.Bean]

I would go with the mk41 super cards if I were you. Especially if you're recording in small and large venues. If you can only afford one set of caps, I'd go with the super cards IMO. I have used them up fron FOB and in the OTS way back, and they ALWAYS sound great. Twoodruff even used them onstage last year and they sound killer from everywhere. And they will DEF cut down on chatter! They're my main capsules even since I've gotten my mk4s! The mk4s sound killer in a good spot, but the mk41 sound killer from just about everywhere. As always, YMMV

[page]

I would go with the mk41 super cards if I were you. Especially if you're recording in small and large venues. If you can only afford one set of caps, I'd go with the super cards IMO.

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[sparkey]

I would go with the mk41 super cards if I were you. Especially if you're recording in small and large venues. If you can only afford one set of caps, I'd go with the super cards IMO.

this

me three

[achalsey]

^^^   In response to the previous three responses: even for stealthing?

I have no experience with stealth and have never used Schoeps, so this response will be (mostly) just secondhand knowledge picked up from being around here for a few years, but my first reaction was: MK4.  Only reason is that a card pair should be a more forgiving when moving around.  How much though, is unknown to me.  If its pretty negligible, then disregard this comment.

From the two people I tape with most often, one (jbell) runs MK4 and the other (stustu) runs MK41 (when inside, which is often).  I generally grab a track from each to see how everyones recordings from the night sounded.  Personally, I can't tell much a difference between the 4 and 41.  Granted I do have a pretty limited playback (just beyer cans out of my macbook), so I'm not doing any really critically listening, but for how subtle the difference is on my end, I would go with the pattern that is easier to stealth with.

I know people fluff the hypers in general around here, but honestly I doubt there is any sort of legitimate difference in OP's situation.  Subtle, minutely tangible crowd rejection?  Maybe.  The question for stealthing I would ask: does the minor increase in rejection outweigh the sensitivity when moving your head?

[edtyre]

Personal opinion is that if you record in spaces where you need the directionality of a hypercardiod, then the mk41 can be a worthwhile addition.  But of you have a fair bit of control of your location at the venue, you don't need 41.  Generally, i think the mk4 is a better, warmer sounding capsule.

I'll agree with this ^^ After using both the 4's and 41's for years, i sold my 41's. I just stopped recording in bad sounding rooms from bad locations. I only record in a handful of venues where the 4's sound
great, no need for the 41's. This is me, others may disagree.

[F.O.Bean]

^^^   In response to the previous three responses: even for stealthing?

I have no experience with stealth and have never used Schoeps, so this response will be (mostly) just secondhand knowledge picked up from being around here for a few years, but my first reaction was: MK4.  Only reason is that a card pair should be a more forgiving when moving around.  How much though, is unknown to me.  If its pretty negligible, then disregard this comment.

From the two people I tape with most often, one (jbell) runs MK4 and the other (stustu) runs MK41 (when inside, which is often).  I generally grab a track from each to see how everyones recordings from the night sounded.  Personally, I can't tell much a difference between the 4 and 41.  Granted I do have a pretty limited playback (just beyer cans out of my macbook), so I'm not doing any really critically listening, but for how subtle the difference is on my end, I would go with the pattern that is easier to stealth with.

I know people fluff the hypers in general around here, but honestly I doubt there is any sort of legitimate difference in OP's situation.  Subtle, minutely tangible crowd rejection?  Maybe.  The question for stealthing I would ask: does the minor increase in rejection outweigh the sensitivity when moving your head?

I agree about the subtle differences between the mk4/mk41. Tonedeaf runs a completely diff rig than me. He used to run mk4>psp2>ad2k>dr680 and I ran mk41>LB(OT)>m10 and even then, the differences were barely audible. Mine did have slightly less chatter, which I find VERY useful in small clubs where everyone is drunk and talking. And when your farther back in an arena, the mk41 is FAR superior IMO!

IMO, you really can't go wrong with either, as always, YMMV I would still go with the mk41s tho. And the mk41 is unlike ANY other super/hyper card IMO. It has a very full bottom end and silky smooth mids/highs? Most hypers sound somewhat thin. Well, the mk41 DOES NOT IMO!!!

[page]

From the two people I tape with most often, one (jbell) runs MK4 and the other (stustu) runs MK41 (when inside, which is often).

Here is why I fluff the 41 over the 4; rejection, but it's not rejection of talkers or bottle clinks or whatever, it's rejection of the sound off the back wall or to your sides. I don't like the reverb cavern of most venues with amplified music so I want as little of it as possible. I really thought about a set of the DPA shotguns for this reason; compared to cards, it doesn't really cut out the crowd noise (some, but not revolutionary), but it does cut out a lot of venue reverb which really cleaned up the tape and left a nice clear sound.

That and I don't think the schoeps 41 cap shares the same tendencies of other hyper caps in that it's a compromise between sound quality and rejection. I think it holds it's own there (but I don't think the 4 caps are particularly excellent on their own...)

[bombdiggity]

Here is why I fluff the 41 over the 4; rejection, but it's not rejection of talkers or bottle clinks or whatever, it's rejection of the sound off the back wall or to your sides. I don't like the reverb cavern of most venues with amplified music so I want as little of it as possible.

I'm totally with page on this element.  I don't have 41's but would be tempted if I wanted to record with Schoeps in totally uncontrolled settings. 

I'm not totally convinced Schoeps are the best mics for stealth (and I have listened to a lot of those recordings on them and own a pair).  If you have control over your location then they can be a great choice (leaving aside the issues of crowd behavior, venue characteristics/ambient sound/mix).  To me they are realistic to a fault which means if all is in your favor they're great, but if there are issues in the ambient sound you will hear those more clearly than from most other mics. 

Honestly I only use mine when I know what I'm getting into...  otherwise I run my SP-CMC-25's.  They are much more forgiving of the typical uncontrollable issues. 

For example I had my Schoeps with me for a fest last weekend and they never left their box.  The main stage was indoors and had a heavy echo/low end throb (massive subwoofers that were cranked up pretty high for my taste).  Given the character of the room it could have been worse but didn't sound like I would have wanted it mixed.  On the acoustic stage where I thought I would be using them I got a board patch and since there was a loud "hard music" stage close enough that there would have been considerable background bleed from it on any audience recording it just didn't seem suitable to run them at all.  Every time I felt tempted to try a set with them some screamo metal band would kick up... 

[stevetoney]

Unfortunately, in describing the situations in which you'll be taping, some of those I would say the MK4 is the better choice and in others the MK41.  You've described a scenario in which you need a one-size-fits all-capsule that doesn't exist...at least not when you've put forth the question in the context of 'should I get MK4 or MK41'.  For your taping needs, I think the best answer is to get both, but that's not what you asked. 

That said, for stealthing, unless you stack tape and the volume of the music drowns out the chatter of the audience, I don't think you can eliminate chatter with capsule selection, no matter whether you're using a 4 or a 41.  After all, what's the difference if you hear the chatter from the people in front of you or a few more people that are in front and beside you.  Chatter is chatter on a recording, no matter where it's coming from.  And lets face it...yes the 41 is nice and directional, but it still will pick up the chatter of the people that are standing to the side of you (although maybe the level of the chatter coming from the sides will be attenuated slightly).  Look at the polar plots, the 41's side rejection isn't absolute, so side chatter is still going to be heard when you're standing amoungst the talkers (not to mention that a 41 has a rear lobe that a 4 doesn't have, so rear facing chatter is an issue for the 41 if you're standing in the crowd).  That said, there can be a huge difference when the capsule is suspended up above the crowd, yes for sure the MK41 is effective at minimizing the chatter of the people that are 4 to 6 feet beneath the capsule location.  But standing in the amonst the chatter...not as much. 

So, I think the answer then falls back on Page's comment about reverb, room dynamics, and even more important WHERE YOU RECORD FROM in the room...but with the added point that your best capsule choice is dependent on where you do MOST of your taping.  Your answer really becomes quite simple then...at least to me.  If you record mainly in closed in rooms and especially rooms that sound reverb-y or where you have to stand back enough that the sound breaks up, then I think the best capsule for you is the mk41 since that's going to give you the most bang-for-buck for your single capsule choice.  If you record mostly in open spaces or rooms that sound really good wherever you are able to record from, or you're always able to stand in the best sounding location in the room, then go with MK4 for the same reason.

EDIT TO ADD:  About your windscreen question...it makes no difference, both 4's or 41's will require a screen when you're outdoors although I suppose your hat or whatever could be an effective screen depending on the material. 

[bluntforcetrauma]

i would go with the 41's since you have cards.

I usually tape with 3 rigs DPA 4023, DPA 4061 and Schopes CCM41 so I get a good idea of omni's hypers, and cards.  And I also just stealth.  So from the same spot i can get a good idea of the sound and after i get home i can listen to each and see what picked up what.  All 3 types do offer different sounds. It does matter what you actually like in reference to sound.  So if you could I would try to borrow a pair to record with? I dont know if that is possible.  IN addition, traveling all over the country to record you never know which mic would work best for the venue. Past concert run included Vegas; houston, texas; orlando, fl and clearwater, fl. I would go with what sounds good to you. my .2 cents

[sparkey]

^^^   In response to the previous three responses: even for stealthing?

Up front, in back, where ever

[F.O.Bean]

^^^   In response to the previous three responses: even for stealthing?

Up front, in back, where ever

Exactly! Achalsey, dig up some of Robb aka Darktrains recordings from the past few yyears. He mainly ran mk4/mk41>CMRs/NBob Actives>Tinybox>M10 I just listened to his acoustic Soundgarden recording from earlier this year. Its really DOPEASS! Plus, if youre rolling with the mk41 steal&h style, you can aim them right at the stacks and pull some tasty stuff. Take it with a grain of salt tho, because I havent steal&hed since 1998 tho, because thats when I bought my 480>DMIC20 setup

[Jonas Karlsson]

Thanks for all the input guys!

I always try to find a good spot to tape from, and I've become very good at it - since I mostly tape in the same halls/arenas. We have only one place in my hometown with good acoustics really, therefore the MK41 would probably give me better results for the most part. Also I'd like to sit at some bigger shows (which I never do) - and also there the MK41 would be better.

If I travel to an unknown city to tape in the future, I don't have any idea of what the sound will be like there - and that is something I'd like to do more than I do now. So there is another fact that says MK41.

When stealthing I have a "natural" windscreen, of course, but using the MK41 will make it more sensitive for wind than my current CA14 omni, for instance. Perhaps getting a proper (small) windscreen for the capsule would help? Do I get the "original" windscreens from Schoeps (if they have any?) or do I turn to www.thewindcutter.com or something like that? Any tips?

/Jonas

[stevetoney]

^ I'm not familiar with the official Schoeps screens, so I can't help you there. 

In general, you need a screen even in a gentle breeze.  Foam screens such as the popular DPA0896 are good enough to cut a gentle breeze, but not once the wind kicks up very much.  Then you'll want something heftier.  The Big Ass Shure's are the most popular, but they're too big for stealth work.  Alot of people go with the lightweight DPA screens, then if the wind kicks up, they'll put a fur over the top of the foam screen...see Tim Brown's dead muppets in the retail section for examples.  The foam/fur combo works quite well in my experience, but again it can be a fairly hefty combo.  For stealth you might consider using a fur screen directly over the mics without the foam, since alot of the fur screens don't have an inner basket, so if they're inside your hat, they fur takes on whatever shape is inside the hat.

[blg]

I don't think you can go wrong with either, but add me as another vote for the 41s.  I've only done about 10 shows with them so far, (used ca14 cards before that) and in addition to how great they sound, I am constantly amazed by what I don't pick up in the crowd.  I no longer have to worry about what's behind me, and in large part don't have to worry about who or what is to the left or right of me anymore.

I also can't distinguish that much of a difference in sound between the 4s and 41s.

[bombdiggity]

I have the official schoeps screens (which may be essential for the 4V's due to their different orientation to the sound source).  They're fine in a fairly stiff breeze and are actually pretty small.  I've not used the mics in a real wind storm. 

When the wind is really whipping I've resorted to covering the SP's with a thin shirt (going under the shirt rather than over top) and have not really noticed any ill effects on the sound (at least compared to getting the major rumble the windscreens I have for them can't knock down). 

[Jonas Karlsson]

I have the official schoeps screens (which may be essential for the 4V's due to their different orientation to the sound source).  They're fine in a fairly stiff breeze and are actually pretty small.  I've not used the mics in a real wind storm. 

When the wind is really whipping I've resorted to covering the SP's with a thin shirt (going under the shirt rather than over top) and have not really noticed any ill effects on the sound (at least compared to getting the major rumble the windscreens I have for them can't knock down).

Ok, this means the official windscreens may be enough for stealth. The hat cuts some wind too.

Are you referring to these: http://www.thomann.de/se/schoeps_b5.htm ?

I haven't gotten any problems with the CA14's, which have the screens "built in" and can't be removed.

Really excited about getting a matched pair of Schoeps, which ever capsule it will be in the end 

/Jonas

[kennedy]

go with the 4s, i owned 41s for years and they mostly collected dust, if you need to use 41s your not in the right spot 

[yug du nord]

41's with B1, B5 or B5D, and Shure A81WS...  and you're set!!
41's in a bad location can turn mud into silk.
41's in a good location is golden.

And the 41's definitely cut down on the "yahoo" factor IMO.
And yes this is in my fluffy honest opinion.

[stevetoney]

41's in a bad location can turn mud into silk.

Bullsh**.  All Schoeps tapes are muddy.  Me and Bean have confirmed it...and we love muddy tapes.

[Jonas Karlsson]

41's with B1, B5 or B5D, and Shure A81WS...  and you're set!!
41's in a bad location can turn mud into silk.
41's in a good location is golden.

And the 41's definitely cut down on the "yahoo" factor IMO.
And yes this is in my fluffy honest opinion.

The Shure A81WS is probably great for open taping, but not very stealthy 

We'll see which I will choose, I know how to get a good tapingspot for sure, but it would be nice to be a little further back while recording and not have to get right up front 

/Jonas

[edtyre]

go with the 4s, i owned 41s for years and they mostly collected dust, if you need to use 41s your not in the right spot 

^^^^^^

[Gutbucket]

I usually tape with 3 rigs DPA 4023, DPA 4061 and Schopes CCM41 so I get a good idea of omni's hypers, and cards.  And I also just stealth.  So from the same spot i can get a good idea of the sound and after i get home i can listen to each and see what picked up what.

That. is. awesome.
 
Kudos for running 3 rigs to choose between recordings!  Nice to have company in the asylum.

For stealth you might consider using a fur screen directly over the mics without the foam, since alot of the fur screens don't have an inner basket, so if they're inside your hat, they fur takes on whatever shape is inside the hat.

Eh, I don't think that would work so great.  Fur is supposed to be loose and fluffed out to work correctly. It isn't going to work as well smushed into a conforming space in a hat, but might better than nothing if you would otherwise get wind noise though there.  I'd lean towards a foam screen, makes more uniform 'dead air space' around the capsule.

When the wind is really whipping I've resorted to covering the SP's with a thin shirt (going under the shirt rather than over top) and have not really noticed any ill effects on the sound (at least compared to getting the major rumble the windscreens I have for them can't knock down). 

I’ve found thin fabric is often sufficient for omnis and can have less effect on the highs than thicker screens and/or fur.  Can be susceptible to fabric noise rubbing against the grid of the mics with movement though. Not so much for directionals which need more wind protection. 

[sparkey]

A little swatch of speaker (acoustically transparent) fabric in between the mics the wind screens was what we would use down in Telluride.  You'd lose a bit on the high end but wouldn't get crazy wind rumbles.

[stevetoney]

go with the 4s, i owned 41s for years and they mostly collected dust, if you need to use 41s your not in the right spot 

^^^^^^

What I find interesting about alot of the responses in this thread that blindly say '41s period' is that if that's true then Schoeps wouldn't have a need to have included any other capsules in their line.  They would have put an mk41 out and stopped right there.  These responses give no regard, IMHO, to the basic rules of thumb that we spend hours and hours discussing about which capsule is best for which recording situation...unless the only variable anyone wants to discuss is decreasing crowd chatter.  But imaging, soundstage, and overall sound quality are part of the equation too and given the right applications IMHO mk4 always sound better than mk41.  And when used in the right situations I think 21 always sound better than 4s. 

Some are saying hypers on-stage sound great...OK they sound great but are they the best capsule for the job.  No way.  All things equal, MK4, mk22 or MK21 are going to sound better the vast majority of the time on stage.  If you want to use that logic, then I'd just counter by saying...well MK4 sound great from the back of the room too, which can definitely be true.  But from the back of the room, 41s are going to beat the 4, 22, or 21 probably every time.  For a single capsule decision, it's about figuring out what will sound best in the rooms you record in MOST of the time, but I just disagree that one size fits all situations.

Having said all of the above, I tend to agree with the OPs conclusion that it sounds like 41's might be the best option for his particular recording situations.

[sparkey]

go with the 4s, i owned 41s for years and they mostly collected dust, if you need to use 41s your not in the right spot 

^^^^^^

  All things equal, MK4, mk22 or MK21 are going to sound better the VAST majority of the time.

For festival, club and arena taping, I disagree.

[stevetoney]

go with the 4s, i owned 41s for years and they mostly collected dust, if you need to use 41s your not in the right spot 

^^^^^^

  All things equal, MK4, mk22 or MK21 are going to sound better the VAST majority of the time.

For festival, club and arena taping, I disagree.

So you disagree...can you explain why? 

I said that I think they provide better warmth, dimension and soundstage than a 41...all things equal.  Do you think they don't?  If not, what uses do the 4, 22, and 21 provide over the mk41, in your opinion?

[page]

go with the 4s, i owned 41s for years and they mostly collected dust, if you need to use 41s your not in the right spot 

^^^^^^

  All things equal, MK4, mk22 or MK21 are going to sound better the VAST majority of the time.

For festival, club and arena taping, I disagree.

So you disagree...can you explain why? 

I said that I think they provide better warmth, dimension and soundstage than a 41...all things equal.  Do you think they don't?  If not, what uses do the 4, 22, and 21 provide over the mk41, in your opinion?

Sure, all things equal, but we're not taping in a studio so I don't think they are equal as you seem to imply. The guy already said he stack tapes and crowd noise from omnis is a disadvantage. Second, he's stated he wants a good stack taping mic that will supply a stereo image; tighter patterns will aide in this.

So, for his situation, yeah, I'd recommend the mk41s, case closed.

[Brian Skalinder]

jonetubs -- I think it's important you note in the initial post:

• you're making great recordings with both omnis and cards
• your complaint about cards is not around insufficient off-axis rejection (which would suggest hypers/supers might provide an improvement), but rather too thin a sound (which suggests higher quality cards may address the issue)

My recommendation:  skip the MK4s and MK41s, and go with MK5s (mechanically switchable omni/card).

You retain all the same benefits and flexibilities you enjoy today by having both cards and omnis at your disposal, but upgrade to world-class mics for both patterns.

$0.02

[sparkey]

go with the 4s, i owned 41s for years and they mostly collected dust, if you need to use 41s your not in the right spot 

^^^^^^

  All things equal, MK4, mk22 or MK21 are going to sound better the VAST majority of the time.

For festival, club and arena taping, I disagree.

So you disagree...can you explain why? 

I spent a lot of time FOB with cards making stellar tapes....I noticed the guys with the hypers at the back of the room were also making stellar tapes without the stress of crowd control or showing up 3 hours early.

[F.O.Bean]

go with the 4s, i owned 41s for years and they mostly collected dust, if you need to use 41s your not in the right spot 

^^^^^^

  All things equal, MK4, mk22 or MK21 are going to sound better the VAST majority of the time.

For festival, club and arena taping, I disagree.

So you disagree...can you explain why? 

I spent a lot of time FOB with cards making stellar tapes....I noticed the guys with the hypers at the back of the room were also making stellar tapes without the stress of crowd control or showing up 3 hours early.

1100% agreed sparked! And as far and lo pro screens the B5/B5D do a wonderful job and are a lot smaller than the bigass shures

[sparkey]

go with the 4s, i owned 41s for years and they mostly collected dust, if you need to use 41s your not in the right spot 

^^^^^^

  All things equal, MK4, mk22 or MK21 are going to sound better the VAST majority of the time.

For festival, club and arena taping, I disagree.

So you disagree...can you explain why? 

I spent a lot of time FOB with cards making stellar tapes....I noticed the guys with the hypers at the back of the room were also making stellar tapes without the stress of crowd control or showing up 3 hours early.

and lo pro screens the B5/B5D do a wonderful job and are a lot smaller than the bigass shures

If they're the ones I'm thinking of they will fit under a hat

[F.O.Bean]

go with the 4s, i owned 41s for years and they mostly collected dust, if you need to use 41s your not in the right spot 

^^^^^^

  All things equal, MK4, mk22 or MK21 are going to sound better the VAST majority of the time.

For festival, club and arena taping, I disagree.

So you disagree...can you explain why? 

I spent a lot of time FOB with cards/hypers making stellar tapes....I noticed the guys with the hypers at the back of the room were also making stellar tapes without the stress of crowd control or showing up 3 hours early.

And I mainly record FOB/DFC WITH my hypers[483>MBHO>Schoeps] and they sound KILLER there too Seems like folks are afraid to run hypers in those great locations where everyone says to run cards/omnis, etc......... Thats where I think the mk41 REALLY SHINE, is when theyre FOB/DFC. Dont get me wrong, mk4/mk21/mk2 sound killer there too. But if someone wants to run mk41s FOB/DFC, then DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO EEEEEEEEEEEEEETTTTTTTTTTTT! They will contain less much chatter especially if you want or need to run your stand lower around head height Search my LMA links under "diskobean" on everyone of my posts and search for my mk41 recordings. Just get the mk41s if you only have the $$$ for ONE set of capsules! And get a Tinybox with OUTPUT TRANSFORMERS and youll be thanking me later.

IMO, the Schoeps>Naiant sound is as top notch as you can get soundwise IMO. IMO that combo sounds just as good/better than ANY OTHER preamp combo out there, regardless of the costs Hell, I like Both of my Littleboxes soundwise better than my old Sonosax[Lemo], and thats the god honest truth

Best of luck with your search, and DL a TON of my mk41>Lemosax/Naiant Littlebox sources on the LMA first, so you know exactly what sound youre getting into

Bean

[Jonas Karlsson]

And I mainly record FOB/DFC WITH my hypers[483>MBHO>Schoeps] and they sound KILLER there too Seems like folks are afraid to run hypers in those great locations where everyone says to run cards/omnis, etc......... Thats where I think the mk41 REALLY SHINE, is when theyre FOB/DFC. Dont get me wrong, mk4/mk21/mk2 sound killer there too. But if someone wants to run mk41s FOB/DFC, then DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO EEEEEEEEEEEEEETTTTTTTTTTTT! They will contain less much chatter especially if you want or need to run your stand lower around head height Search my LMA links under "diskobean" on everyone of my posts and search for my mk41 recordings. Just get the mk41s if you only have the $$$ for ONE set of capsules! And get a Tinybox with OUTPUT TRANSFORMERS and youll be thanking me later.

IMO, the Schoeps>Naiant sound is as top notch as you can get soundwise IMO. IMO that combo sounds just as good/better than ANY OTHER preamp combo out there, regardless of the costs Hell, I like Both of my Littleboxes soundwise better than my old Sonosax[Lemo], and thats the god honest truth

Best of luck with your search, and DL a TON of my mk41>Lemosax/Naiant Littlebox sources on the LMA first, so you know exactly what sound youre getting into

Bean

Thanks Bean, I will defenitely check it out.

The thing is, I'd like to have a mic that will suit best in MOST situations. I never sit and record, never use a stand - always stand on the floor as we do in Europe. BUT - as I'm not getting younger, it would be nice to feel that I could buy seats on the side in the future to be able to record shows with some sort of card/supercard, still in stealthmode. More likely is that I will continue to record from the stands, but a bit further back.

I'd like the experience of taping of festivals to continue - and that's probably something to discuss. What would work best there? A MK4 in front of the PA (30-100ft from the PA) or the MK41? Which would work best without a "dead muppet" or "dead rat" or whatever you call it?  Standing DFC at festivals is a bad idea (at least in Europe) since that's where all people cue up to stand. The sides are much better, regarding less people (more room for taping).

It seems, however, that the samples I hear from the Schoeps overall - has not been eq'd or tampered with. That's really the MAIN reason for the upgrade.

/Jonas

[scb]

my thinking has always been:

If I need hypers, I'm too far away

[Jonas Karlsson]

my thinking has always been:

If I need hypers, I'm too far away

True 

[stevetoney]

Ha...you added MK5 to the debate that has no answer.   

[Jonas Karlsson]

Ha...you added MK5 to the debate that has no answer.   

Hahaha! It really doesn't need any answer. The debate is good enough

/Jonas

[cashandkerouac]

And I mainly record FOB/DFC WITH my hypers[483>MBHO>Schoeps] and they sound KILLER there too Seems like folks are afraid to run hypers in those great locations where everyone says to run cards/omnis, etc......... Thats where I think the mk41 REALLY SHINE, is when theyre FOB/DFC. Dont get me wrong, mk4/mk21/mk2 sound killer there too. But if someone wants to run mk41s FOB/DFC, then DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO EEEEEEEEEEEEEETTTTTTTTTTTT! They will contain less much chatter especially if you want or need to run your stand lower around head height Search my LMA links under "diskobean" on everyone of my posts and search for my mk41 recordings. Just get the mk41s if you only have the $$$ for ONE set of capsules! And get a Tinybox with OUTPUT TRANSFORMERS and youll be thanking me later.

IMO, the Schoeps>Naiant sound is as top notch as you can get soundwise IMO. IMO that combo sounds just as good/better than ANY OTHER preamp combo out there, regardless of the costs Hell, I like Both of my Littleboxes soundwise better than my old Sonosax[Lemo], and thats the god honest truth

Best of luck with your search, and DL a TON of my mk41>Lemosax/Naiant Littlebox sources on the LMA first, so you know exactly what sound youre getting into

Bean

Thanks Bean, I will defenitely check it out.

The thing is, I'd like to have a mic that will suit best in MOST situations. I never sit and record, never use a stand - always stand on the floor as we do in Europe. BUT - as I'm not getting younger, it would be nice to feel that I could buy seats on the side in the future to be able to record shows with some sort of card/supercard, still in stealthmode. More likely is that I will continue to record from the stands, but a bit further back.

I'd like the experience of taping of festivals to continue - and that's probably something to discuss. What would work best there? A MK4 in front of the PA (30-100ft from the PA) or the MK41? Which would work best without a "dead muppet" or "dead rat" or whatever you call it?  Standing DFC at festivals is a bad idea (at least in Europe) since that's where all people cue up to stand. The sides are much better, regarding less people (more room for taping).

It seems, however, that the samples I hear from the Schoeps overall - has not been eq'd or tampered with. That's really the MAIN reason for the upgrade.

/Jonas

i can't speak specifically to the mk41 caps, but hypers or super-cards up close can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on the stage setup. 

if i am front row recording a full band on a decent size stage i do not like using hypers/sub-cards because the soundfield is just too wide at that short distance for hypers/super-cards to yield a balanced recording.  the instruments at the far ends of the stage can be very low in the mix because of the narrow pickup pattern of the hypers/super-cards and the instruments right in front of you are sometimes too loud in the mix.  there is not much you can do in post-production to correct that situation.

if i am in the front row recording a solo performer or a small band that is set up in the middle of the stage then hypers/super-cards can be fantastic.

i think your decision to go with MK4, MK41 or MK5 caps is largely contingent on your taping style(s).  if you are a taper that is always going to be in the same spot then you should probably go with the mic that will work best for that taping location based on your preferences and tatse for sound.  if you are likely to change positions from night to night you probably need a more general purpose mic or several mics so you can select the best tool for the job on any particular night. 

there really is no correct answer here.  i think the biggest variable in the equation is YOU, not so much the mics.  all the caps you mention are stellar!

[bombdiggity]

I have the official schoeps screens (which may be essential for the 4V's due to their different orientation to the sound source).  They're fine in a fairly stiff breeze and are actually pretty small.  I've not used the mics in a real wind storm. 

When the wind is really whipping I've resorted to covering the SP's with a thin shirt (going under the shirt rather than over top) and have not really noticed any ill effects on the sound (at least compared to getting the major rumble the windscreens I have for them can't knock down).

Ok, this means the official windscreens may be enough for stealth. The hat cuts some wind too.

Are you referring to these: http://www.thomann.de/se/schoeps_b5.htm ?

I haven't gotten any problems with the CA14's, which have the screens "built in" and can't be removed.

Really excited about getting a matched pair of Schoeps, which ever capsule it will be in the end 

/Jonas

I don't think I'd ever run my mics under a hat if that's what you're saying... 

I have these:

http://www.schoeps.de/en/products/b5d

They have a plastic frame built inside which keeps a clear void area around the mic (and they're recommended by Schoeps for the 4V whereas the foam only B5 is not). 

If you're in a situation where you may have pressure against the windscreen I'd definitely use the B5D to ensure that void area remains around the capsule.

My SP's do have a foam only screen that slips over touching the capsule but it is a much lighter foam than what the B5D uses and does not cut the wind nearly as well (that may be why the SP ones can actually work OK while touching the mic). 

The B5D are very heavy duty and Schoeps says there is no impact on the sound.  I've not needed dead rats yet when using them. 

[bombdiggity]

On the pattern element;

FWIW due to general yahoo-ness of a particular crowd I once ran my 4V's from just about the last row all the way back in a mid-sized hall.  It actually sounded a lot better on tape than it did to my ear there.  There was way too much reverb live (a vocalist with some piano/keys) but that actually didn't come through much on the recording, which sounded better than most of what I heard from that tour.  People thought I'd made it up front.  There was also no yapping, which was a big issue on this tour (great isolation, with the crowd level at ends of songs on par with the music instead of way too loud). 

Rather than dealing with people jumping up and down, yapping and yelling, shuffling seats and constantly moving while I had to do some sort of hand-held job dodging dingbats I just went to the back where there were several empty rows, set up a stand and let it run.  In my old age with a stand is more my speed... 

[scb]

the narrow pickup pattern of the hypers/sub-cards

Hypers have a narrower pickup pattern than cards. But subcards, also called "wide cardioids" have a wider pattern.  They're basically between a cardioid and an omni

[cashandkerouac]

the narrow pickup pattern of the hypers/sub-cards

Hypers have a narrower pickup pattern than cards. But subcards, also called "wide cardioids" have a wider pattern.  They're basically between a cardioid and an omni

thanks for the correction... should have used the term super-cardioid instead.  that's what i get for trying to be fancy.   

note to self:
(1) Supercardioids are a variant of a hypercardioid (and often not distinguished from them) but usually reckoned to reject sound best at 150°.  They have an exaggerated version of the cardioid pattern with greater emphasis on picking up sound directly in front. 
(2) Subcardioids or wide cardioids are versions of hypocardioid (less than cardioid) patterns - slightly more directional than an omni but no more than that. They are most easily distinguished by their rear sensitivity - anything from 2-18 dB lower compared to their front sensitivity.

[sparkey]

41s!  Ok lock the thread.

[H₂O]

The original windscreens from Schoeps (i.e. B5's) are more then enough in gental breezes - Unless you are very tall and the mics are way above the crowd the crowd will help with the wind as well.

[microburst]

FWIW, I've had a pair of mk41's for about 4 months or so now and have only used them once and have been to quite a number of shows in that period.  More often that not the cardioid (mk5 in my case) is the way to go. 

[Jonas Karlsson]

FWIW, I've had a pair of mk41's for about 4 months or so now and have only used them once and have been to quite a number of shows in that period.  More often that not the cardioid (mk5 in my case) is the way to go.

By curiousity: have you used the omni or cardioid-settings at these shows? Small gigs or bigger shows?

/Jonas

[bluntforcetrauma]

FWIW, I've had a pair of mk41's for about 4 months or so now and have only used them once and have been to quite a number of shows in that period.  More often that not the cardioid (mk5 in my case) is the way to go.

By curiousity: have you used the omni or cardioid-settings at these shows? Small gigs or bigger shows?

/Jonas

As a stealther I run ccm41, DPA 4023 and DPA 4061 simultaneoulsy, albeit 2 different mic companies but 3 different patterns.  The sound is different from each mic in addition you also get to hear exactly what you pick up when you are at the show, so it kinda gives me an idea when i am at a show and i take in my surroundings as i like to be close to the stage-  then when i listen to the recordings I can get a very good feel of what is picked up and what is not. AS I use more rigs for a single outing it then becomes hard to back down at times as i dont want to end up regreting a situation where a certain pickup pattern would have worked better.  ON occasion, if you get that one loud fan/clapper or yeller along with where that fan is making the sound from, I wont pick him up on every rig I am running. Furthermore, you may know you have good seats, but you dont know if the crowd around you is going to make a lot of noise. i guess this is my .4 cents worth as i see i already commented on this topic.
There is a distinct difference between the DPA and Schoeps. Since taping from the same location, i feel especially on this last run of acoustic shows that the Schoeps tends to bring out the vocal and guitar frequency out better than the DPA cards.  So as i compare say DPA 4023 from a schoeps ccm41 the DPA kinda sounds like its recorded in a hat, whereas the schoeps sound a bit upfront putting the vocals and guitar frequency at least to my ears - in front of the lower frequencies. In additon the DPA 4061 omnis give the best repoduction of the music but they also pick up everything else around you- making for the least pleasurable to listen to. But hopefully in the end I have 3 pulls for every show that i can make a nice matrix.

[Datfly]

FWIW, I've had a pair of mk41's for about 4 months or so now and have only used them once and have been to quite a number of shows in that period.  More often that not the cardioid (mk5 in my case) is the way to go.

I also have the MK5's so I can have a card or omni if needed but I also have a pair of MK41's if needed. I use the MK5's 99% of the time as I like you only stealth and as close to the stacks as I can.
The MK41's when used gave stellar results as well so this is the ultimate Schoeps combo for me. omnis-cards-hypers in two sets.

[Gutbucket]

note to self:
(1) Supercardioids are a variant of a hypercardioid (and often not distinguished from them) but usually reckoned to reject sound best at 150°.  They have an exaggerated version of the cardioid pattern with greater emphasis on picking up sound directly in front.
(2) Subcardioids or wide cardioids are versions of hypocardioid (less than cardioid) patterns - slightly more directional than an omni but no more than that. They are most easily distinguished by their rear sensitivity - anything from 2-18 dB lower compared to their front sensitivity.

^^
My bold emphasis.

Picking nits, because everything builds on basic concepts and that’s were nitpicky details in definitions count most, trickling down to everything else, or working up the food chain, depending on your perspective.  Apologies for derailing with technical applied theory stuff-

All patterns are differentiated by the specific aspects of their sensitivity to sound arriving from the rear and sides (the far off-axis regions), not differences in sensitivity to sounds arriving from the front. Supercards can also have 18dB lower rearward sensitivity compared to their on-axis response.

*Trick question: Using any of the ‘standard’ stereo mic setups (ORTF, DIN, DIN-A, NOS), and keeping the same config but just switching between capsules, which provides more rejection to the rear as well as the sides: cardioids or supercardioids?

The answer is supercardioids.  Surprised?


I find it helpful to consider a relatively wide window of on-axis sensitivity (what you've referred to above as "emphasis on picking up sound directly in front") of all patterns as being effectively equal.  The conceptual difference between various patterns (at least in their directional sensitivity, there are other differences that influence the sound of any specific microphone) is then determined primarily by how it handles sounds arriving from well away from the front- meaning the far sides, far above and below, and from the rear.  Thinking about it that was is helpful because the sensitivity of first order patterns really doesn’t fall off very quickly until significantly off-axis. The on-axis sensitivity is, in a practical sense, pretty much unchanged within a 90 degree forward facing 'acceptance angle' window for any pickup pattern.

The significant difference in directional sensitivity between patterns is the nature of pickup outside of that forward facing 90 degree window.  It’s the nature of the back and sides that effectively define the sensitivity pattern, not the front part.
 
What then becomes important is how to differentiate those differences in back and side sensitivity and to determine which of those aspects are most important.

In practical usage in a stereo configuration, usually the most important aspect is not if there are rear lobes and where the lobes and nulls point, but the general difference between sensitivity to sound arriving from all directions as a whole compared to the sensitivity to sound arriving on the forward facing axis.  In other words, thinking more in terms of ‘front’ verses ‘everywhere else’, rather than 'rejecting' specific directions.  That’s why I posted the trick question above.  It strikes me as conceptually analogous to what is perhaps the most important acoustic phenomenon in recording to my mind- the direct/reverberant ratio.

By that measure, a hypercardioid is the most directional first order microphone pattern because it offers the least sensitivity as a whole outside of  that ~90 degree wide forward facing window common to all patterns.  The most important aspect of the mk41 compared to other patternsis it’s increased directionality in a general sense and its well behaved off-axis response, rather than lobes and null angles.  Those things matter, but not nearly as much.

Of course none of that helps choose between mk4, mk41 and mk5. 

*More later on this in a separate thread since I frequency see comments by tapers with misunderstandings or fears about the ‘rear lobes’ of supercards used in stereo arrangements.

[johnw]

I have these:

http://www.schoeps.de/en/products/b5d

They have a plastic frame built inside which keeps a clear void area around the mic (and they're recommended by Schoeps for the 4V whereas the foam only B5 is not). 

If you're in a situation where you may have pressure against the windscreen I'd definitely use the B5D to ensure that void area remains around the capsule.

My SP's do have a foam only screen that slips over touching the capsule but it is a much lighter foam than what the B5D uses and does not cut the wind nearly as well (that may be why the SP ones can actually work OK while touching the mic). 

The B5D are very heavy duty and Schoeps says there is no impact on the sound.  I've not needed dead rats yet when using them.

Actually the B5D will impact the sound of your 4Vs. In fact Schoeps used to recommend against using them with side address caps. Interestingly they now say this is ok but will attenuate the high frequency of the 4V.

From the link you posted "Although it has not been designed for that purpose, it is possible to use it on the MK 4V, MK 41V or MK 4VXS microphone capsules and the corresponding CCM Compact Condenser Microphones. The microphone’s slight inherent high-frequency emphasis is then compensated for."

Here is what the product description used to say "The microphone must be inserted up to the stop. The B 5 D cannot be used with side-address transducers such as MK 4 V, MK 41 V, MK 6, or MK 8 capsules, or with CCM 4 V, or CCM 41 V, or CCM 8."

I'm going to start a new thread in hopes DSatz can clear this up.

[Jonas Karlsson]

Actually I'd like a capsule - switchable between MK5 (omni and card) and MK41 - but since I mostly record from a good spot (by that I mean stacktaping), and I enjoy the sound from my CA14 omni (clappers can be reduced, even screamers!) maybe the MK5 is the way to go. Can't be much bigger capsule than the MK4 and fully stealthy?

Is there any special reason many people that use MK4 or MK41record DFC by the way???

Haven't really been convinced the MK41 is the way to go when recording hard rock/Metal-shows that I go to...

/Jonas

[blg]

Actually I'd like a capsule - switchable between MK5 (omni and card) and MK41 - but since I mostly record from a good spot (by that I mean stacktaping), and I enjoy the sound from my CA14 omni (clappers can be reduced, even screamers!) maybe the MK5 is the way to go. Can't be much bigger capsule than the MK4 and fully stealthy?

Is there any special reason many people that use MK4 or MK41record DFC by the way???

Haven't really been convinced the MK41 is the way to go when recording hard rock/Metal-shows that I go to...

/Jonas

If you have questions about running MK5s stealth, you should PM Datfly. He runs both MK5s and MK41s.  I think one reason not as many people run 5s, is the cost. New, i believe they go for around $3200 for a pair. 

If you are going to run dead center towards the back of a room, I'd think MK41s would be pretty ideal.

[microburst]

By curiousity: have you used the omni or cardioid-settings at these shows? Small gigs or bigger shows?

/Jonas

I've only used the omni setting of the mk5 a handful of times - several times as the mid in an on stage m/s array with an mk8, and a few times on stage split at various distances.  Have yet to run the omnis off a PA as I've only had the mk5 pair since October 2012 which I got to replace a pair of mk4's.  FWIW the high frequency bump of the mk5 vs. the mk4 is pleasing to my ears.  The shows I record are typically smaller venues of a couple hundred people.  I don't attend shows in big theatres, hockey arenas and amphitheaters too often.

You later asked about the size of the mk5's.  I don't know exactly but they're only slightly larger than the typical schoeps capsules, perhaps a few centimeters.  Fully stealthable though.  I'm strongly in favor of the mk5's over the mk4's though they will cost you quite a bit more, but certainly not nearly as much as buying a pair of mk4 and mk2 or mk2s.   There's a pair of mk5 on German ebay right now here: http://tinyurl.com/ljv8ule with current bit of 312 EU.

Since windscreens were brought up earlier, I use the Schoeps W5D but obviously not stealthy: http://www.schoeps.de/en/products/w5d.  I use them with muppets in extreme winds (i.e., Jam Cruise).  Also use the Shure A81WS (a/k/aBig Ass Shures) sometimes if the W5D and muppets are concurrently in use: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/68646-REG/Shure_A81WS_A81WS_Windscreen_for.html.  For light A/C and other light wind generally indoors I use the Windtech 1300 http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=orderHistory&A=details&Q=&sku=298938&is=REG.  Finally, for m/s I use the Schoeps WMS: http://www.schoeps.de/en/products/wms.

[Brian Skalinder]

You later asked about the size of the mk5's.  I don't know exactly but they're only slightly larger than the typical schoeps capsules, perhaps a few centimeters.

Only 0.5 cm (5 mm):  MK4 22mm long, MK5 27mm long.  Of course, that's in addition to the active cable connector.

[Jonas Karlsson]

FWIW the high frequency bump of the mk5 vs. the mk4 is pleasing to my ears. 

I would like that too. Most of the MK4 + MK41-recordings I've heard have not got the highs I like best. As I said earlier - would like to do as little as possible in post.

Thanks for the reply regarding size of the MK5 and your experiences. The difference in price between MK4/MK41 and MK5 is just a few more months of saving. The one who waits for something good... never waits too long  (as we say in Sweden) 

Will defenitely look up the one's for sale!

/Jonas

[edtyre]

>Right now I use the Church CA14's (omni's and cardioid) and has gotten really great results with both

 Most of the MK4 + MK41-recordings I've heard have not got the highs I like best. As I said earlier - would like to do as little as possible in post.

/Jonas

Why don't you just stick with the Church mic's if the Schoeps sound isn't to your liking.

[stevetoney]

^ ...and just to lend support to that question, don't forget that the sound you get at a show is going to be more about location than it is the mics.  To drive that point home, I had a glitch in a recording that resulted in a minute or two drop out on my MK4 source.  Bean had a CA-14 run in the exact same location, which was the best spot in the house.  I faded his source into mine to fill in the missing part and you absolutely cannot tell where I mixed in the CA-14 source.  I'm not going to say don't buy Schoeps, they're a great product, but just pointing out that you said you can get to the sweet spot for most of your shows, so don't expect 20X the improvement in sound just because your mics cost that much more than the CA-14. 

[Jonas Karlsson]

>Right now I use the Church CA14's (omni's and cardioid) and has gotten really great results with both

 Most of the MK4 + MK41-recordings I've heard have not got the highs I like best. As I said earlier - would like to do as little as possible in post.

/Jonas

Why don't you just stick with the Church mic's if the Schoeps sound isn't to your liking.

Because the CA14's obviously need even more work in post. My setup, that isn't visual even in daylight - needs added highs + mids to sound the way my ears like it at 95% of the shows I record. Not very strange when they're not on a 10ft stand of course!

Overall I like the fullness of the sound the Schoeps produce when they're at their best, also I hear the Schoeps sound more detailed. CA 11 & CA14 sounded a lot better than I expected compared to my old Sonic Studios DSM-6EL (which obviously was a kind of omni mic). I wanted a microphone that was coping with most type of venues, the Sonics just didn't do it at bigger arenas + festivals (and they were not very stealthy). In Sweden we also have the stupid 100dB-law I've written about before, and the crowds often sound louder than the music - especially at the smaller shows.

I'm defenitely NOT expecting a 20X improvement when using the Schoeps! I even think some of the swedish tapers will actually have the same shows recorded that I do, with better sounding recordings than I do! I've always said that you need a LOT of luck recording. At 1 show out of 10 you will get the perfect spot, with no screamers, clappers and the good PA-sound. The others you will get at least one of these 3. It's my 21 years of going to shows and record them that will lead me to a good spot and knowing when to move before the show starts if a gang of girls show up, or the 3 drunk friends suddenly move closer to you making the spot you're at unusable. In the future I want to be more in the back - getting the full sound from the floor with none of these 3 things mentioned before. CA14 to my ears just don't cut it with that long distance from the speakers. But that's just my opinion. You tapers in the U.S. record a lot of shows from seats pretty way back sometimes and using the Schoeps your recording sound sweeter than I would ever get using my current setup.

Enough said - the CA14's will still be in my arsenal of choice - I just feel I need to try the Schoeps out. If it doesn't work - I'll have a full rig for sale which haven't really lost any value perhaps it works better on the other side of the globe (with a crowd not moving around and sounds over 100dB) but who knows if I don't try???

/Jonas

[Ultfris101]

My experience after recently moving up to Schoeps MK5s is that most of the time I still do some EQ and/or parallel compression but the Schoeps capture a LOT of detail and range to work worth. Good mics don't necessarily mean you get a perfect recording with no post-processing. The MK5's with their high frequency boost are more similar to than different from my AKG's in the less than ideal venue I tape in most but there's definitely more detail to my ears and I do some chamber music recording which the Schoeps are ideal for. That's why the mk5s are the caps for me.

I find I prefer the card openness when comparing head to head with the supers, but the difference melts away after listening to an mk41 source for a while. I certainly wouldn't complain. I recorded Drive-By Truckers next to a mk41 rig in Charlottesville on 6/30 for a good comparison of the card vs super.

When contemplating my next aquisition I'm torn between cards and supers but cards give me the most options for all the different stuff I like to record. Fortunately or unfortunately that's not a decision.to make any time soon.

[Jonas Karlsson]

My experience after recently moving up to Schoeps MK5s is that most of the time I still do some EQ and/or parallel compression but the Schoeps capture a LOT of detail and range to work worth. Good mics don't necessarily mean you get a perfect recording with no post-processing. The MK5's with their high frequency boost are more similar to than different from my AKG's in the less than ideal venue I tape in most but there's definitely more detail to my ears and I do some chamber music recording which the Schoeps are ideal for. That's why the mk5s are the caps for me.

I find I prefer the card openness when comparing head to head with the supers, but the difference melts away after listening to an mk41 source for a while. I certainly wouldn't complain. I recorded Drive-By Truckers next to a mk41 rig in Charlottesville on 6/30 for a good comparison of the card vs super.

When contemplating my next aquisition I'm torn between cards and supers but cards give me the most options for all the different stuff I like to record. Fortunately or unfortunately that's not a decision.to make any time soon.

I'm counting on doing som EQ even with Schoeps, but not as much as with the CA14's.

The only way to know what to compare I simply have to decide what to get and then compare at hometurf to see what I'm getting. Listening to recordings made on the other side of the globe will not really make me decide - cause I don't know what the situation has been during the recording. What stealth mode has been used or wind, surroundings etc.

Good to get points of view from you, the Schoeps-family 

Appreciate any input, what so ever. So keep the spirit going 

/Jonas

[Ultfris101]

I'm with you on that. I need to get the gear in my hands to truly understand how all the factors play into the sound. If you have the means, get them and play.

[noahbickart]

Get the mk5, which schoeps suggests everyone start with.

[Gutbucket]

Just curious, have you considered the microphones made in your home country?  There are some nice microphones made in Sweden-  Milab, Pearl, Line-Audio.

[Jonas Karlsson]

Just curious, have you considered the microphones made in your home country?  There are some nice microphones made in Sweden-  Milab, Pearl, Line-Audio.

Nope - I've heard shows recorded in the 80's with Milab-mics though (small ones). Might have happened a few things after that (to the better) 

Seems most of these brands are more suitable for acoustic settings.

/Jonas

[acidjack]

Milabs are great mics for rock recording.  A buddy of mine runs them next to my Schoeps frequently. My only knock on them would be the "active" system is less convenient in terms of not having the mounts, cable options, etc. that the Schoeps do. Of course, they cost like half as much.

What Schoeps to buy really depends what you want to do with them. Remember that none of these mics were made to record rock concert PA systems from 100-200 ft away like many people here do. Looking at the Schoeps guidelines is to a degree somewhat meaningless, because what we do (mostly amateurs recording rock concert PA systems) is sort of the equivalent of taking a Porsche and using it to drive at 15mph around your gated community. 

Even the supercardiod MK41s are designed for use at much closer distances than most of us are able to record at. Much closer. The notion of using wide-angle cardiods (22s, 21s) at a distance, having tried it myself more than a few times, borders to me on ludicrous.

From practical experience, if you are rarely up very close (and for taping purposes I'd call that 50ft or less max) and your rooms aren't great, I think the MK41 would serve you better. If you stealth and can get up close, or you record in nice-sounding rooms with great acoustics, then the MK5 is a better option. I disagree that the MK5 is more versatile for rock music taping, in that while it is an outstanding sounding capsule in a good room, the MK41 will outperform it in a bad one, and the MK41 is not significantly worse than it in an up-close situation either. I believe there is even a comp floating around here of almost every kind of Schoeps being used to record onstage jazz, and even in that situation -- which would be one where I'd reach for MK5s or MK21s (if I owned them) -- the MK41 still sound pretty damn good.

[F.O.Bean]

And I mainly record FOB/DFC WITH my hypers[483>MBHO>Schoeps] and they sound KILLER there too Seems like folks are afraid to run hypers in those great locations where everyone says to run cards/omnis, etc......... Thats where I think the mk41 REALLY SHINE, is when theyre FOB/DFC. Dont get me wrong, mk4/mk21/mk2 sound killer there too. But if someone wants to run mk41s FOB/DFC, then DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO EEEEEEEEEEEEEETTTTTTTTTTTT! They will contain less much chatter especially if you want or need to run your stand lower around head height Search my LMA links under "diskobean" on everyone of my posts and search for my mk41 recordings. Just get the mk41s if you only have the $$$ for ONE set of capsules! And get a Tinybox with OUTPUT TRANSFORMERS and youll be thanking me later.

IMO, the Schoeps>Naiant sound is as top notch as you can get soundwise IMO. IMO that combo sounds just as good/better than ANY OTHER preamp combo out there, regardless of the costs Hell, I like Both of my Littleboxes soundwise better than my old Sonosax[Lemo], and thats the god honest truth

Best of luck with your search, and DL a TON of my mk41>Lemosax/Naiant Littlebox sources on the LMA first, so you know exactly what sound youre getting into

Bean

Thanks Bean, I will defenitely check it out.

The thing is, I'd like to have a mic that will suit best in MOST situations. I never sit and record, never use a stand - always stand on the floor as we do in Europe. BUT - as I'm not getting younger, it would be nice to feel that I could buy seats on the side in the future to be able to record shows with some sort of card/supercard, still in stealthmode. More likely is that I will continue to record from the stands, but a bit further back.

I'd like the experience of taping of festivals to continue - and that's probably something to discuss. What would work best there? A MK4 in front of the PA (30-100ft from the PA) or the MK41? Which would work best without a "dead muppet" or "dead rat" or whatever you call it?  Standing DFC at festivals is a bad idea (at least in Europe) since that's where all people cue up to stand. The sides are much better, regarding less people (more room for taping).

It seems, however, that the samples I hear from the Schoeps overall - has not been eq'd or tampered with. That's really the MAIN reason for the upgrade.

/Jonas

i can't speak specifically to the mk41 caps, but hypers or super-cards up close can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on the stage setup. 

if i am front row recording a full band on a decent size stage i do not like using hypers/sub-cards because the soundfield is just too wide at that short distance for hypers/super-cards to yield a balanced recording.  the instruments at the far ends of the stage can be very low in the mix because of the narrow pickup pattern of the hypers/super-cards and the instruments right in front of you are sometimes too loud in the mix.  there is not much you can do in post-production to correct that situation.

if i am in the front row recording a solo performer or a small band that is set up in the middle of the stage then hypers/super-cards can be fantastic.

i think your decision to go with MK4, MK41 or MK5 caps is largely contingent on your taping style(s).  if you are a taper that is always going to be in the same spot then you should probably go with the mic that will work best for that taping location based on your preferences and tatse for sound.  if you are likely to change positions from night to night you probably need a more general purpose mic or several mics so you can select the best tool for the job on any particular night. 

there really is no correct answer here.  i think the biggest variable in the equation is YOU, not so much the mics.  all the caps you mention are stellar!

100% agreed BYF. If youre "too close" then you HAVE TO use Omnis/Subs/Cards. I was commenting on the fact if im FOB/DFC in the sweet spot, supercards can sound AMAZING. And remember its not the mic or preamp or recorder, its ALL ABOUT location and room/festie sound

[F.O.Bean]

>Right now I use the Church CA14's (omni's and cardioid) and has gotten really great results with both

 Most of the MK4 + MK41-recordings I've heard have not got the highs I like best. As I said earlier - would like to do as little as possible in post.

/Jonas

Why don't you just stick with the Church mic's if the Schoeps sound isn't to your liking.

Because the CA14's obviously need even more work in post. My setup, that isn't visual even in daylight - needs added highs + mids to sound the way my ears like it at 95% of the shows I record. Not very strange when they're not on a 10ft stand of course!

Overall I like the fullness of the sound the Schoeps produce when they're at their best, also I hear the Schoeps sound more detailed. CA 11 & CA14 sounded a lot better than I expected compared to my old Sonic Studios DSM-6EL (which obviously was a kind of omni mic). I wanted a microphone that was coping with most type of venues, the Sonics just didn't do it at bigger arenas + festivals (and they were not very stealthy). In Sweden we also have the stupid 100dB-law I've written about before, and the crowds often sound louder than the music - especially at the smaller shows.

I'm defenitely NOT expecting a 20X improvement when using the Schoeps! I even think some of the swedish tapers will actually have the same shows recorded that I do, with better sounding recordings than I do! I've always said that you need a LOT of luck recording. At 1 show out of 10 you will get the perfect spot, with no screamers, clappers and the good PA-sound. The others you will get at least one of these 3. It's my 21 years of going to shows and record them that will lead me to a good spot and knowing when to move before the show starts if a gang of girls show up, or the 3 drunk friends suddenly move closer to you making the spot you're at unusable. In the future I want to be more in the back - getting the full sound from the floor with none of these 3 things mentioned before. CA14 to my ears just don't cut it with that long distance from the speakers. But that's just my opinion. You tapers in the U.S. record a lot of shows from seats pretty way back sometimes and using the Schoeps your recording sound sweeter than I would ever get using my current setup.

Enough said - the CA14's will still be in my arsenal of choice - I just feel I need to try the Schoeps out. If it doesn't work - I'll have a full rig for sale which haven't really lost any value perhaps it works better on the other side of the globe (with a crowd not moving around and sounds over 100dB) but who knows if I don't try???

/Jonas

With the majority of your shows in small clubs and very talkative concertgoers, the obvious choice are the mk41s The mk5s are nice and all, but I dont ever run omnis and I dont prefer the HF bump of the mk4v/mk5 in the card setting. I much prefer the sound of the regular good 'ole mk4s, and mk41s I dont think you can go wrong with the mk41s for now, since you cant afford mk4/mk22 AND mk41s. Buy the mk41s new and when/if you sell them, I'll sell my mismatched mk41s and buy your minty mk41s. Oh and get Nextel Grey

Seriously, just go to archive.org and DL/Stream a SHITLOAD of recordings and see which you prefer. Go to the bottom of my posts and search under the "diskobean" bookmarks from archive.org. I think you could get a complete mk41/KCY/Tinybox/M10 setup for under 3k Maybe more like 2.5k.

Used mk41s =$1,300
Used KCY    =$700-ish
Tinybox w [OT] = $350 MAX
Sony M10 = $250

TOTAL = $2,600.00

mk5s will cost you an EASY 2k used. And if you ever use omnis, then id maybe get the mk5s. but if you NEVER use omnis, I wouldnt waste my $$ on them just to never be used. You can take the other $700-ish youd spend on mk5s[2k-ish], and put that $$$ towards a pair of mk4/mk22s[$1300/pair]

[F.O.Bean]

And I might EQ about 3 recordings a year since 2011 when I got into Schoeps from [MBHO>AKG480]. I think the Schoeps mk41>LB[OT] sound is very pleasing and well balanced, so I VERY RARELY have to EQ any of my recordings. and I dont go overboard with the EQing. I use the multiband compressor in Wavelab 6, and usually add or remove lowend. Thats it, PERIOD

[Jonas Karlsson]

With the majority of your shows in small clubs and very talkative concertgoers, the obvious choice are the mk41s The mk5s are nice and all, but I dont ever run omnis and I dont prefer the HF bump of the mk4v/mk5 in the card setting. I much prefer the sound of the regular good 'ole mk4s, and mk41s I dont think you can go wrong with the mk41s for now, since you cant afford mk4/mk22 AND mk41s. Buy the mk41s new and when/if you sell them, I'll sell my mismatched mk41s and buy your minty mk41s. Oh and get Nextel Grey

Seriously, just go to archive.org and DL/Stream a SHITLOAD of recordings and see which you prefer. Go to the bottom of my posts and search under the "diskobean" bookmarks from archive.org. I think you could get a complete mk41/KCY/Tinybox/M10 setup for under 3k Maybe more like 2.5k.

Used mk41s =$1,300
Used KCY    =$700-ish
Tinybox w [OT] = $350 MAX
Sony M10 = $250

TOTAL = $2,600.00

mk5s will cost you an EASY 2k used. And if you ever use omnis, then id maybe get the mk5s. but if you NEVER use omnis, I wouldnt waste my $$ on them just to never be used. You can take the other $700-ish youd spend on mk5s[2k-ish], and put that $$$ towards a pair of mk4/mk22s[$1300/pair]

Well I already own the M10, and I do use the CA14 omni's quite a bit. The problem with using the CA14 omni's in Sweden is the low dB from the PA's (not over 100dB, and they're thinking of lowering it even more!) which make some of the otherwise great recordings full of screamers, talkers and clappers. That can be somewhat fixed in post, but I'd prefer a better (more detailed) raw copy to work with. I will continue to be a stacktaper - not really sure why you want to stand in the middle FOB with the rest of the audience. At most shows you can get really close to the PA since people tend to go to the middle (like in a straight line from Left+Right PA and down to the mixingtable).

/jonas

[page]

I will continue to be a stacktaper - not really sure why you want to stand in the middle FOB with the rest of the audience.

Most of us who do that do it for the stereo image or soundstage that is created in the room. The PA is likely still mono, but the reverb in the room will give a sense of "stereoness" for lack of a better term.

Since you're not doing that, thats why I suggested the mk41s over a more open pattern; you're already ditching that in favor of clarity of the stack, why mess around.

[Jonas Karlsson]

I will continue to be a stacktaper - not really sure why you want to stand in the middle FOB with the rest of the audience.

Most of us who do that do it for the stereo image or soundstage that is created in the room. The PA is likely still mono, but the reverb in the room will give a sense of "stereoness" for lack of a better term.

Since you're not doing that, thats why I suggested the mk41s over a more open pattern; you're already ditching that in favor of clarity of the stack, why mess around.

I see, thanks for clarifying. Haven't really tested to record DFC, but I think it will be harder in Sweden because of the 100dB-thing, with such low dB's it's probably better to get as close to the stacks as possible. You can talk to each other at shows in Sweden, no need for shouting. But drunks shout anyways, therefore the chatter on recordings done here.

PA is mono, but as you say - the reverb can sound absolutely great sometimes 

Still haven't decided which way to go yet... BUT - since there are no really excellent concert halls in my town (soundwise), and I would like to cut down on crowd chatter - the MK5 is probably not an option: I like the sound of an omni, but is it worth that much in $? Rather hold on to my CA14's for certain places.

The MK4 is a cardioid and would probably work excellent at the places that are semi big - but at the small venues and larger arenas I might do better with an MK41 (super cardioid). PA's usually hang far up in the ceiling, if I stand on the floor.

So... 75% MK41 and 25% MK4. Do you think I'm thinking right? 

Anyone have any tips on mic placement during stealth - please PM and I will explain my settings!! (ORTF, A+B etc)

[stevetoney]

Interesting...most of the rooms I tape in, which are mid-sized rooms that can accomodate 300 to 500  people, the PAs get mixed in stereo.  It seems to me that more and more bands, especially the electronic bands, like to futz with putting specific sounds through specific channels.  My center located recordings pick that imaging up nicely.  The small rooms around here are definitely mixed mono though.

At festivals, I'd say they mix more mono than stereo, but alot of stages have a stereo mix as well.  If I could generalize, the smaller side stages tend to have a stereo mix, but the main stage tends to be mono, but not always.

[Jonas Karlsson]

I figure you're right there, when thinking about it, I've heard shows that display sounds differently L to R. You're probably right!!!

/Jonas

[F.O.Bean]

So, I'd say you've decided to go with the mk41s

[Jonas Karlsson]

So, I'd say you've decided to go with the mk41s

I don't know - I keep changing my mind 

If I'm most satisfied with the CA14 omni's at the moment (exept for the clapping, chatter etc) - why upgrade to a supercardioid? 

Perhaps I should settle with the MK4 and get less chatter, clapping than my CA14 omni's - but getting more detail and overall better sound ?

When standing on the floor at the 12,000 seater arena in Gothenburg, maybe the MK4 is sufficient at a good location anyway? (40-60 ft from the PA).

Just saying... it's hard to decide 

[F.O.Bean]

So, I'd say you've decided to go with the mk41s

I don't know - I keep changing my mind 

If I'm most satisfied with the CA14 omni's at the moment (exept for the clapping, chatter etc) - why upgrade to a supercardioid? 

Perhaps I should settle with the MK4 and get less chatter, clapping than my CA14 omni's - but getting more detail and overall better sound ?

When standing on the floor at the 12,000 seater arena in Gothenburg, maybe the MK4 is sufficient at a good location anyway? (40-60 ft from the PA).

Just saying... it's hard to decide 

Yeah I feel ya! It's a tough decision with so much $$$ involved!!! Just keep listening to stuff on archive.org and go from there

[sparkey]

So, I'd say you've decided to go with the mk41s

I don't know - I keep changing my mind 

If I'm most satisfied with the CA14 omni's at the moment (exept for the clapping, chatter etc) - why upgrade to a supercardioid? 

Perhaps I should settle with the MK4 and get less chatter, clapping than my CA14 omni's - but getting more detail and overall better sound ?

 (40-60 ft from the PA).

41s!  Lock the thread

[cashandkerouac]

^ it's deja vu all over again.

[bombdiggity]

Just curious, have you considered the microphones made in your home country?  There are some nice microphones made in Sweden-  Milab, Pearl, Line-Audio.

Nope - I've heard shows recorded in the 80's with Milab-mics though (small ones). Might have happened a few things after that (to the better) 

Seems most of these brands are more suitable for acoustic settings.

/Jonas

Relative to the other comment here about Milabs I don't like the tone they reproduce, particularly on the highs, which can be grating.  Overall they have some clarity but don't seem accurate to my ear. 

[bombdiggity]

It strikes me as conceptually analogous to what is perhaps the most important acoustic phenomenon in recording to my mind- the direct/reverberant ratio.

+1.  That really is what most of the fuss is about.  I think everyone has different tolerances for that ratio but I know what I like most     

[F.O.Bean]

I agree. I have zero plans for adding caps for a long while to come. Mk4/mk41 has me covered!

[stevetoney]

There's two trains of thought I see.  On the one hand, it IS hard to decide which is the best capsule for your situation.  There's lots of data to sort through and lots of recordings you can listen to.  It's alot of infomration to absorb, and differing opinions taboot...none of this makes the task of deciding any easier.

On the other hand, all of the capsules in the Schoeps line have similar sonic signatures to them and, to me, you're really contemplating features that won't result in DRASTIC differences to how your recordings will sound. 

In the end, whatever you decide, you're gonna get alot of really good recordings whatever you go with, so I wouldn't stress over the decision too much.

[Jonas Karlsson]

Hi again,

Those who would like to share a link to their best captures with the MK41's (stealth!!!) are more than welcome

/Jonas

[noahbickart]

not stealth, but:

http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=565417

[blg]

Hi again,

Those who would like to share a link to their best captures with the MK41's (stealth!!!) are more than welcome

/Jonas

Here's my most recent. Venue was a 250 capacity club:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=163241.0

[F.O.Bean]

Papadosio 7/18 All Good MK41 FOB/DFC

http://archive.org/details/papadosio2013-07-18.mk41.lb.m10.flac16

[Jonas Karlsson]

Thanks guys! 

[F.O.Bean]

Thanks guys! 

Did you listen to my Dosio fob tape above?

[Jonas Karlsson]

Thanks guys! 

Did you listen to my Dosio fob tape above?

Yes I did

[bombdiggity]

Thanks guys! 

Did you listen to my Dosio fob tape above?

Granted I only listened to the stream of Dosio but I think I like the Sco more...  Rowdier/more restless crowd but I like the ambient sound/tone of the mix better.   Nice work. 

It's not etree friendly but glad to have an opportunity to hear it before it disappears.  I haven't seen him in many a year unfortunately. 

[F.O.Bean]

Thanks guys! 

Did you listen to my Dosio fob tape above?

Granted I only listened to the stream of Dosio but I think I like the Sco more...  Rowdier/more restless crowd but I like the ambient sound/tone of the mix better.   Nice work. 

It's not etree friendly but glad to have an opportunity to hear it before it disappears.  I haven't seen him in many a year unfortunately. 

Thanks!

Hes not etree friendly Damn my bad. I have ULd his stuff there before

[page]

Thanks guys! 

Did you listen to my Dosio fob tape above?

Granted I only listened to the stream of Dosio but I think I like the Sco more...  Rowdier/more restless crowd but I like the ambient sound/tone of the mix better.   Nice work. 

It's not etree friendly but glad to have an opportunity to hear it before it disappears.  I haven't seen him in many a year unfortunately. 

Thanks!

Hes not etree friendly Damn my bad. I have ULd his stuff there before

second one on their list of stuff not to upload

[F.O.Bean]

deleted by me