Topic: Config for SBD/AUD matrix?

[Sloan Simpson]

What's the "best" configuration to run my Neumann KM-184s when I'll be mixing with a SBD feed in post? Lately I've been running XY because I thought there was a "phasiness" when mixing my DIN or PAS recordings with the SBD. I've been widening the AUD feed in post for a little better spread, but I wonder what opinions are here on the best configuration for cardioids when you'll be mixing with SBD.

[Chuck]

I get mono SBD feeds a lot and I use DIN cardioids to give the recordings some space.

[Sloan Simpson]

I forgot to mention that at my main venue it's a stereo soundboard. Depending on the night sometimes the instruments are panned pretty hard.

[ScoobieKW]

for me, location is more important than mic config, xy vs ORTF

onstage will beat aud when mixing with a soundboard in all but the largest venues

The soundboard/PA feed is supplementing what sound is coming off stage. an onstage pair will pick up what isn't in the PA, the more you move the mics back into the audience, the more you get PA and onstage in your mics. adding more soundboard to a mix that already has PA and Stage Volume will be unbalnced, over emphasizing vocals, kick and other instruments predominant in the PA.

[Chuck]

...and it does get more complicated when you have a stereo SBD feed and a stereo AUD recording. You have to make sure anything panned right in the SBD feed also is represented on the right side of your audience recording etc... Getting all that lined up can be a pain.

[Sloan Simpson]

Onstage isn't going to work at this place very often, there's always a good chance of crowdsurfing/moshing/etc. I have a mount on the side of the FOH booth, not sonically ideal but logistically it's the only good solution here.

[Sloan Simpson]

Here's a recent sample of what I've been getting with the XY pair + stereo SBD:

http://youtu.be/9V1MVFAnN0Y

[Ultfris101]

I record in a narrow room from the back a lot and lately have been experimenting with wider (24+ inches) split hypers PAS and then with the stereo soundboard feed I get I have been narrowing it in audacity to about 70% or so panned left and right (sometimes narrower) and like what I'm getting. Typical patterns like DIN, ORTF, etc don't work well, but I'll admit I'm going to try it again tomorrow night with one of my rigs.

Stagelip sounds good in this place but when the place is packed and drunk people are hanging on the mics, spilling beer, etc it's not worth the risk. Stage is very small and only about a foot higher than the floor so there's no buffer.

[ScoobieKW]

My other favorite trick is hang mics whenever possible.

If you have access to the room before doors, consider mics hanging from pipe for lighting elements. A superclamp and extension pole work wonders.

[Chuck]

I record in a narrow room from the back a lot and lately have been experimenting with wider (24+ inches) split hypers PAS and then with the stereo soundboard feed I get I have been narrowing it in audacity to about 70% or so panned left and right (sometimes narrower) and like what I'm getting. Typical patterns like DIN, ORTF, etc don't work well, but I'll admit I'm going to try it again tomorrow night with one of my rigs.

I do the same thing in long rooms. I find splitting hyper-cardioid mics more than you would for DIN etc... and aiming them at the PA can work well with a soundboard feed in some venues.

[Gutbucket]

What Scoob & Chuck said.  In reference to what Chuck was getting at earlier, make sure right is right (sounds from the right side are favored in the right channel) and left is left by checking both the SBD recording and your microphone recording to make sure they have the the same 'sidedness'.  If stuff in the SBD is too hardpanned to one side or the other you can narrow the SBD contribution by panning it's left and right channels closer to center, leaving your on-stage or AUD pair fully hard-panned to either side.  You aren't likely to get phase-problems from doing that if necessary.

Lately I've been running XY because I thought there was a "phasiness" when mixing my DIN or PAS recordings with the SBD. I've been widening the AUD feed in post for a little better spread, but I wonder what opinions are here on the best configuration for cardioids when you'll be mixing with SBD.

X/Y mostly helps to counter phasiness when you need to significantly narrow the panning of the AUD pair (like for mono compatability), or are mixing that X/Y AUD pair with other AUD microphones.  When mixing an AUD with a SBD there tends to be less Left-Right stereo combination phase conflicts, although there can still be phasiness between the two sources, see below* so an X/Y config is not necessarily advantageous to reduce phasiness when mixing with a SBD over a spaced config. 

When mixing with a SBD, I prefer an on-stage or AUD config with some space between the microphones because that tends to provide more of a feeling of space and openess in the mix than X/Y cards usually will.  The spacing helps decorellate the reverb and ambience and open things up, similar to increasing the width of the AUD like you mention you've been doing.  The 24" split of the setup Ultfris describes helps provide that kind of 'good' phase decorellation.

*Take some time to play around with the micro-time alignment between the two recorded pairs, likely necessary with an AUD + SBD, maybe not be strickly so with an on-stage pair + SBD, but it still may benefit strongly from some careful tweaking.  You will get significant phasisness/tone/reverb/slap-back effects when that pair-wise time-alignment is off, depending on how far off it is, regardless of what AUD config you use.

[Cobiwan]

What's a good configuration for the on stage mics? Can cards be used there or are omnis the better option? Do you points caps level or up?

[page]

What's a good configuration for the on stage mics? Can cards be used there or are omnis the better option?

It's a question of what you're recording and how its setup. For 2ch recording on stage, I've used cards and subcards before. You use a tighter stereo pattern since you're not getting similar information on both sides of the image. If I normally liked 20cm/90* then for onstage (if I could fit everything close to 160* for a stereo image) I'd condense that to 14cm/60* and still get a major stereo angle. Omnis don't matter nearly as much as the only directional stuff is >4khz and even that's sort of omni at the end of the day. The downside to omnis are that they don't have any rejection of those screaming fans in the front row.

This is one of those instances where if you want to get better at stereo onstage recording, I'd recommend learning the whole SRA calculation bit. Unless someone beats me to it, I'll dig it up later.

Do you points caps level or up?

At whatever I'm recording (not intending to be snarky). If that's above me, then up, if it's off to one side, then I point it there. On stage is more of a "capture the sound" question than ambiance since there is no intended ambiance on stage. All of the sound that is occurring there is occurring for a reason (monitors, amps, instruments, etc). Any ambiance or sound image is largely unintentional except in a few genres.

[Gutbucket]

Page just beat me to the punch.  I'll go ahead and post this then post again to expain why he and I differ somewhat bit on the recomendations and approach.

As with the AUD I like a spaced config on-stage, although a wide-enough angled X/Y can work.  ORTF is usually an excellent safe bet on-stage using cardioids.  If the audience is unruley and contributing more unwanted chatter than positive excitement you might use a wider cardioid spacing with less angle between the mics to reduce the audience's contribution.  If the audience contribution is positive then spaced omnis are hard to beat for on-stage atmosphere and even coverage.  Point them up or forward to adjust their high-frequency EQ, forward makes the on-stage instrumentation brighter, up makes that softer and the room contribution a bit brighter.  You probably can only hear that after the fact, so that more likely to be a fine-tuning adjustment arrived at over the course of several similar recording situations.

[page]

expain why he and I differ somewhat bit on the recomendations and approach.

I already have an idea where this is headed. 

Experiences shape us, and I have a bunch of onstage/lip recordings which I did where the recording angle was upwards of 160 degrees. At that point without creating this massive hole in the middle or using a more open pattern (which is why I bought those subcards), it's condense it. Zach heard a sample of it a couple years ago and was really surprised just how much stereo existed with such a tight pattern, but it's because you have different content on each side which creates the imbalance.

[Gutbucket]

  On the image width aspects alone I agree, althought I'd counter that mixing in the SBD mostly takes care of the middle and allows one to err to the wider side of things with the on-stage pair to improve other 'non-imaging' aspects. 

What's a good configuration for the on stage mics? Can cards be used there or are omnis the better option?

It's a question of what you're recording and how its setup. For 2ch recording on stage, I've used cards and subcards before. You use a tighter stereo pattern since you're not getting similar information on both sides of the image. If I normally liked 20cm/90* then for onstage (if I could fit everything close to 160* for a stereo image) I'd condense that to 14cm/60* and still get a major stereo angle. Omnis don't matter nearly as much as the only directional stuff is >4khz and even that's sort of omni at the end of the day. The downside to omnis are that they don't have any rejection of those screaming fans in the front row.

This is one of those instances where if you want to get better at stereo onstage recording, I'd recommend learning the whole SRA calculation bit. Unless someone beats me to it, I'll dig it up later.

Do you points caps level or up?

At whatever I'm recording (not intending to be snarky). If that's above me, then up, if it's off to one side, then I point it there.

Pointing the omnis at what you want is usually the best answer.  The high-frequency EQ fine-tuning aspect I mentioned is more of a subtle nuance thing, quite microphone and situation dependant.  More importantly (and were Page and I begin to diverge) on-stage spaced omnis spaced at least 3-4' wide (and/or using more than two of them) leverage both proximity signal-level effects and time-of arrival effects.  That can be useful in providing a nice balanced pickup of all on stage sources, even with players moving around, compared to a pair placed in one central spot.  I find they provide far more imaging effects than just >4kHz, but they need to be spaced enough to do that.  They'll still work and sound natural more closely spaced, but then they don't provide much imaging below the treble.

On stage is more of a "capture the sound" question than ambiance since there is no intended ambiance on stage. All of the sound that is occurring there is occurring for a reason (monitors, amps, instruments, etc). Any ambiance or sound image is largely unintentional except in a few genres.

Here's were we diverge  a bit more strongly.  What I get from on-stage which I can't get elsewhere is primarily excellent and detailed imaging and an on-stage ambient feel (talking about an on-stage stereo pair here, or multiple spaced omnis rather than close-placed or spot mics which only provide direct, SBD-like sound).   Secondly, on-stage omnis provide both room and audience ambience as well.   Unless I have a dedicated ambient pair facing out into the room or an AUD pair, all the ambient room information on the recording is being provided by those on-stage mics.  Those aspects are completely intentional and one of the things I consider when arranging the on-stage setup.

[page]

all valid points. It's a situational thing. I've heard lots of crap sound on stage that you have to focus on as it (the stage sound) treated like a function, not as a production in it's own right. Now, my small jazz and classical opportunities are much more tuned to stage where you have people who will setup to create a better stage sound. My rock/jam/indie type offerings aren't (especially with those directional guitar amps).

[Gutbucket]

(especially with those directional guitar amps)

Word.  Those things beam nearly as much as a trumpet or 'bone player, but fortunately the amps stay put.  It's like a torrent of sound sticking to the floor, flowing directly across it.  Can be a useful phenomenon when considering the most appropriate on-stage setup.

[Chuck]

A couple of weekends ago I was recording a band on a small stage outside. Once I had my levels set I went up front and took some pictures. I experienced that guitar amp beaming first hand and noted how strong it was if I was perfectly lined up with it.

[ScoobieKW]

A couple of weekends ago I was recording a band on a small stage outside. Once I had my levels set I went up front and took some pictures. I experienced that guitar amp beaming first hand and noted how strong it was if I was perfectly lined up with it.

yup, it's why my buddy builds guitar cabs with the speaker set at a 20 degree angle inside. the beam hits the guitarist not the front row.

[Sloan Simpson]

Thanks for the responses. I think I'm going to try DIN again and maybe narrow the SBD feed a bit if I have the same issue (which I guess is more unsatisfactory imaging than phasiness). It never occurred to me to manipulate the width of the SBD 

[DF81]

...and it does get more complicated when you have a stereo SBD feed and a stereo AUD recording. You have to make sure anything panned right in the SBD feed also is represented on the right side of your audience recording etc... Getting all that lined up can be a pain.

Sloan is using 184's, but for this scenario a mid-side recording may be easier to mix in post production.

[acidjack]

I use good ol' point at stacks mainly, but it's situational. Dumb question/thought, but be sure the sound guy is plugging right into right and left into left. Sometimes what's intuitive to us markings-wise is not to them, or they don't really think about it or care. Most of my places don't pan much, but it's enough sometimes that you'll get that phase-y effect if you don't make sure the channels are right.

[Sloan Simpson]

I use good ol' point at stacks mainly, but it's situational. Dumb question/thought, but be sure the sound guy is plugging right into right and left into left. Sometimes what's intuitive to us markings-wise is not to them, or they don't really think about it or care. Most of my places don't pan much, but it's enough sometimes that you'll get that phase-y effect if you don't make sure the channels are right.

They let me plug my own cables, which I usually leave hanging. They should be right but it would be a good idea if I crawl up there and make sure they still are.

[Gutbucket]

When mixing, it's good to get in the habit of listening to each source individually to confirm left is left and right is right, as well as checking and correcting other basic stuff like channel balance, tonality, noise or other subtle problems that may not be as easily identified once other channels are introduced.  It's easy enough to swap channel assignments at that point.  In the end getting it right in the mix is what matters, rather than my ability to keep all channels correctly assigned when making the raw recording. 

[F.O.Bean]

What's a good configuration for the on stage mics? Can cards be used there or are omnis the better option? Do you points caps level or up?

I have run cards onstage/stage-lip more than any other pattern, but then again I never did run omnis that often. I have run omnis/subcards/cards/hypers all onstage. the most consistent cap IMO is the cards. They are very versatile onstage/stage-lip and sound very natural up there. I have run a stage-lip ck61 pair, DIN, for Lotus way back in the day, and mixed that with a SBD recording from that night in 2006, and IMO, its one of the best Lotus recordings on the LMA! And many would agree in the Lotus world!

Check it!
https://archive.org/details/lotus2006-02-17.matrix

[F.O.Bean]

Another. This is just the ck61>V3>ModSBM1>JB3 stage-lip. Its pretty dope IMO for just a stage-lip Enjoy!

https://archive.org/details/lotus2005-10-15.481

[Cobiwan]

I'm recording a friend's annual party/mini festival on Sat with 5 bands. I'm gonna pull the SBD with the M-10 and run the MK 4s ORTF on stage. I'll post a sample after the weekend.