Topic: Mid-side panning question.

[chinariderstl]

Hi, I am just now getting into mid-side recording and have a couple questions about panning the mics.  I will be using a cardioid and a figure-eight mic.

1. How should I pan the cardioid on my pre-amp (Mixpre) and/or deck (DR-680)?  Middle?
2. How should I pan the figure-eight mic (on the Mixpre/DR-680)?  Left?

I'll be doing post in either Audacity or Sound Forge.

I appreciate any input.

Thanks, Chris.

[page]

When recording, keep the channels separate (Cardioid/Forward in the left channel, the figure 8 in the right). Do your M/S decoding in post, you're giving up one of it's greatest features by trying to do it in the field.

[chinariderstl]

Right, record to two mono tracks and decode in post.  (I guess that eliminates the Mixpre > PCM-M10 option, because I don't think the M10 can record to two mono tracks.  I think it only records a stereo pair.  I could be wrong, though.)

So, on the DR-680, should I pan the mics?  From what I've read, it seems like I would pan the card Center (or no panning), and pan the figure-eight to the Left.  (Then duplicate the left track to the right channel in post).

Sorry if these questions seem remedial.

[mec111272]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFiIJAIKN0o

 I did my first attempt last week.  Used this as a quick guide. 

[voltronic]

Right, record to two mono tracks and decode in post.  (I guess that eliminates the Mixpre > PCM-M10 option, because I don't think the M10 can record to two mono tracks.  I think it only records a stereo pair.  I could be wrong, though.)

So, on the DR-680, should I pan the mics?  From what I've read, it seems like I would pan the card Center (or no panning), and pan the figure-eight to the Left.  (Then duplicate the left track to the right channel in post).

Sorry if these questions seem remedial.

EDIT: You can certainly use your MixPre.  Pan the fig 8 channel right and the center card left.  You could do the opposite if doing a matrix yourself as described here, but I believe mid/side processing plugins would expect that mid is left and side is right.  The most important thing is you remember which was which.  Then those two mics will appear in those respective channels in your recorded tracks.
Record everything center-panned to avoid confusion later.

The M10 records as a stereo track, but it's not a problem.  If you import your mid-side track into Audacity, click the drop-down on the track menu and select "split stereo to mono".  Note that this is different than the normal "split stereo track" choice because if you did it that way, you'd then need to go into each of the resulting two tracks and change them from Left or Right to Mono.

Label your MID and SIDE before going on.  It's easy to tell by listening if you forgot - mid is no room sound; side is only the room.  Now make a duplicate of the Side channel.  Pan the first one hard-left.  Pan the second one hard-right, and then invert its phase.  In Audacity, you have to do this by selecting that entire track, and then using Effect > Invert.  In SoundForge there should be a similar function.  Other DAWs usually have a switch right on the channel to do this.

Then you can play with your stereo image by lowering the level of the two Side tracks until you get the balance you want.  Leave the Mid (cardioid track) alone.  Just make sure you're moving the two side tracks by equal amounts - I don't think there's a way to link track faders in Audacity like you can in other programs.

[voltronic]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFiIJAIKN0o

 I did my first attempt last week.  Used this as a quick guide.

That video shows how to make a standard L/R stereo recording into mid-side channels.  chinariderstl is trying to do the opposite.

[chinariderstl]

Right, record to two mono tracks and decode in post.  (I guess that eliminates the Mixpre > PCM-M10 option, because I don't think the M10 can record to two mono tracks.  I think it only records a stereo pair.  I could be wrong, though.)

So, on the DR-680, should I pan the mics?  From what I've read, it seems like I would pan the card Center (or no panning), and pan the figure-eight to the Left.  (Then duplicate the left track to the right channel in post).

Sorry if these questions seem remedial.

Record everything center-panned to avoid confusion later.

The M10 records as a stereo track, but it's not a problem.  If you import your mid-side track into Audacity, click the drop-down on the track menu and select "split stereo to mono".  Note that this is different than the normal "split stereo track" choice because if you did it that way, you'd then need to go into each of the resulting two tracks and change them from Left or Right to Mono.

Label your MID and SIDE before going on.  It's easy to tell by listening if you forgot - mid is no room sound; side is only the room.  Now make a duplicate of the Side channel.  Pan the first one hard-left.  Pan the second one hard-right, and then invert its phase.  In Audacity, you have to do this by selecting that entire track, and then using Effect > Invert.  In SoundForge there should be a similar function.  Other DAWs usually have a switch right on the channel to do this.

Then you can play with your stereo image by lowering the level of the two Side tracks until you get the balance you want.  Leave the Mid (cardioid track) alone.  Just make sure you're moving the two side tracks by equal amounts - I don't think there's a way to link track faders in Audacity like you can in other programs.

This is killer, thank you for the detailed instructions.

I am going to practice with my Avantone CK-40.

[Tom McCreadie]

With the M and S channel signals panned hard left and right, just record it as a conventional stereo file, then in post run that file through the free Voxengo MSED plugin.

[page]

With the M and S channel signals panned hard left and right, just record it as a conventional stereo file

This. Treat the channels just like a normal stereo pair, you don't want any of the left channel signal in the right channel and vice versa while recording. It doesn't matter whether you're doing M/S or a standard stereo pair. With M/S you just do the decode to normal stereo later in your DAW.

[chinariderstl]

Sounds good, thanks guys.  I really appreciate the input!

I'll run some tests at home and see how it goes.

Chris.

[microburst]

With the M and S channel signals panned hard left and right, just record it as a conventional stereo file, then in post run that file through the free Voxengo MSED plugin.

^^^^ This...is the easiest fail safe solution.  I also highly recommend Voxengo MSED...it's super easy to use.

I've also found that the Mid-Side Mic Visualizer iPhone app (https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/mid-side-mic-visualizer/id486145346?mt=8) is a great tool for getting angle/width and pattern approximations while obviously using your ears to fine tune the M/S matrix in post.  It costs a buck but what can you buy in the real world for under a $1 these days?

[tgakidis]

All this talk of mid side is making me want to run that tonight for Club d'Elf in cambridge 

[microburst]

Do it Ted...never ran M/S at the Lizard when I lived in Boston but did a few Blumlein recording with a pair of TLM 170's at d'Elf shows.  I found it a good room to expreiment, especially when more and more tapers caught on to d'Elf.  Seems all their shows get captured now.  I'm hoping to make it up to their show in Marlboro, NY on 10/30 with Medeski.

In terms of M/S recordings, I haven't made any since Janaury but last week finally got around to decoding a good chunk of my M/S recordings frm Jam Cruise.  The post work got me motivated to do some more M/S captures before the year is out. 

[MIQ]

With the M and S channel signals panned hard left and right, just record it as a conventional stereo file, then in post run that file through the free Voxengo MSED plugin.

^^^^ This...is the easiest fail safe solution.  I also highly recommend Voxengo MSED...it's super easy to use.

I've also found that the Mid-Side Mic Visualizer iPhone app (https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/mid-side-mic-visualizer/id486145346?mt=8) is a great tool for getting angle/width and pattern approximations while obviously using your ears to fine tune the M/S matrix in post.  It costs a buck but what can you buy in the real world for under a $1 these days?

+T for the Voxengo MSED plug.  Easy to use and works well. 

Another free but more complicated VST tool is the Flux Stereo Tool  http://www.fluxhome.com/products/freewares/stereotool  It is not labeled as a Mid Side processor but the "Width" control is doing just that.  It converts from L&R to M&S (sum and difference) then allows you to alter the ratio of Mid to Side then converts back to L&R (sum and difference) at the output.  That's different than what you want to do but I thought I'd mention it.  It has a cool vector scope visual display that lets you see the level and phase relationships of the audio signals that are being fed throught its processing which is cool even if you never touch the "width" control.  The scope is a modern day version of the AEA LD2020 Stereo Scope.  http://www.posthorn.com/Aea_5.html  Wes Dooley knows a thing or two about MS.   

Thanks for the props on the MS Visualizer microburst!  Glad to hear you are a happy user.

Miq

[capnhook]

I use the Voxengo MSED plug-in for going the other way, from XY@90 to Mid-Side.

It's like a pair of good channel-locks......something everyone should have.