Become a Site Supporter and Never see Ads again!

Author Topic: What to do with Mono soundboard used as bulk of mix?  (Read 2333 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline wforwumbo

  • Trade Count: (6)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 151
Re: What to do with Mono soundboard used as bulk of mix?
« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2021, 10:42:40 PM »
Aligning two source recordings is also important if you plan on processing the channels independently - equalization being an important one. If your recordings are not aligned, and you try to eq anything (either independent sources or the master) you’ll be constantly fighting an uphill battle. Sure many DAWs have plug in group delay compensation but that’s still fighting a losing battle if your sources aren’t aligned to start.

For most of the other points, phase delays are not always constant across frequency. Sure there is some wiggle room from environmental factors, but they’re not linear across frequency and our brains have ways of processing and filtering the information posthaste. The digital processing side of things offers a layer of control that benefits greatly from phase alignment.

It’s not just about combing, it’s also about a psychoacoustic phenomenon called…

… our hearing can tolerate a shift of up to about 20-25 ms. Our brain does not distinguish it and takes it as one sound. When the shift is greater, our brain processes it as two separate sounds. When we are out of this range, the matrix will sound unphased. I don't think there will be significant comb filtering. Sbd and aud are different enough signals. But for our hearing it will be confusing. It will sound like an echo, losing clarity and precision.

In my experience, when sbd is slightly shifted forward in front of the aud, the sbd is more pronounced in the mix and the aud is more in the background. And conversely. It's like changing the levels of sbd and aud, but it has a slightly different sound effect. These are delicate things

… the precedence effect. Also called the law of first wavefront, the way your brain fuses auditory information from delayed signals can get very confusing. What’s posted in the quote is a hand wave, but a very practical manifestation of the precedence effect.

It honestly is not too hard to get your sources lined up, even if you don’t feel your ears are dialed in. Most DAWs come with a sample delay and a corellation meter (and some even come with gonioneters), this process takes maybe all of 5 minutes once you become comfortable with the tools and your ears learn to adjust and identify the shifts.
North Jersey native, Upstate veteran, proud Texan

2x Schoeps mk2
2x Schoeps mk21
2x Schoeps mk4
2x Schoeps mk41v
1x Schoeps ccm8

Grace Lunatec V3
2x Schoeps cmc5
2x Schoeps KC5
2x Nbob KCY
2x Naiant PFA

Sound Devices Mixpre-6

Offline kuba e

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Taperssection Member
  • *
  • Posts: 443
  • Gender: Male
Re: What to do with Mono soundboard used as bulk of mix?
« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2021, 03:07:47 PM »
I remember doing one recording sbd + aud (hyper, din, in the middle of the room). I aligned the first version exactly according to the waveform and my listening. In the second version, I delayed sbd by 10 ms (maybe a little less, I don't remember it well). My friend, who has perfect hearing and good monitors, confirmed that the second version is better. The sbd didn't sound good, and by delaying it, it fell into the aud. It was not a significant change but it was positive. And when I tried to just turn down the levels of the sbd, it didn't have the same good effect.

I think the same as Morst, there is a certain possible range for syncing sbd and aud. From what I was listening, most of the matrixes came to me well done. I've heard a bad sync on a few recordings. Perhaps some instruments may be sensitive to just minimal unsync, such as cymbals? I'm not sensitive to it and I hope most people will overlook it as well. In addition, much can be forgiven in a live recording if it does not significantly interfere.

I also think comb filtering is negligible when mixing aud and sbd. Theoreticaly, if we mix onstage mics 1m spacing and sbd, we would get into problems for 350hz (wavelength 1m) and higher. But I have not encountered these problems. I think sbd and aud are enough different signals. Maybe I got it wrong. Why should there be a problem with equalization?
« Last Edit: November 25, 2021, 04:21:55 PM by kuba e »

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (15)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 14617
  • Gender: Male
  • "and the rowers keep on rowing!"
Re: What to do with Mono soundboard used as bulk of mix?
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2021, 10:33:53 AM »
[snip] ..These are delicate things. When making the matrix, I proceed as follows. First I set the correct alignment of sbd and aud, as nicely described by Morst. Then I set the optimal levels of sbd and aud. And finally, I try a slight shift forward and backward, eg +-5 ms. Alternatively, I can fine-retune the levels in the end.
^
In my experience, this is a good practice for making a AUD/SBD mix.  In the end, trust your ears.. just be aware that your brain (to which your ears are directly attached, and the filter to rule all filters) can play tricks on you when listening closely in detail for extended periods.  Come back and revisit it after lunch or whatever with fresh ears and give the first few moments of listening the most weight in deciding if it sounds right or not, before you unconsciously adapt to the recording over the course of a minute or two.

The goal is creating the most engaging recording for the majority of listeners, both casual and more attentively serious.

I see making the independent sources available valuable as a related but essentially different mission.  The goals there being preservation for posterity, tapers listening critically to the individual components, and folks who may wish to play around with making their own mix.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (15)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 14617
  • Gender: Male
  • "and the rowers keep on rowing!"
Re: What to do with Mono soundboard used as bulk of mix?
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2021, 11:17:47 AM »
Semi-related OT comment on source alignment-  Years ago I developed something of an ear for alignment by way of simultaneous playback of two sources directly from the (separate) digital recorders on which they were recorded rather than from within DAW software, aligning the two audibly by way of quick jabs of the play/pause button on the leading source.  It took a lot of trial and error, familiarity with the equipment, and careful listening to get it right.  It also made me acutely sensitive to slight misalignment either way.  Making it more challenging, most of the time the two sources were two AUD microphone pairs, sounding more similar to each other than AUD and SBD. This unintentionally ended up being something of a party trick when friends were present, as they'd immediately hear when then alignment was correct, yet when it was off they had only a vague idea of by how much, and no idea of which source was leading. 

Interestingly, once aligned in this manor, the recording would remain closely aligned for the entire length of the file, despite rather actually because of the difference between the two clocks.  Playing back using the same machines on which the recordings were originally made eliminated the differential between the two clocks and the need to stretch or shrink one source to match the other when using a common clock reference.  The clock in each recorder only needed to be highly accurate with regards to itself - playing back at the same imperfect rate at which it recorded.  Or more precisely, both clocks needed only to be "true to itself" and have similar error related to temperature differences and whatever other outside influences impacted them between the recording and playback events. 

Doing the same with three sources was a much greater challenge that I attempted only rarely.  Way too much of a PITA!  In that case I only got one chance to get the third source aligned perfectly before having to pause and realign the other two sources again prior to a second attempt.

All of that gave me a good feel for how close was really close enough in terms of perception (in contrast to phase precision in regards to processing) and the perceptual effect of miniscule delay differences.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2021, 11:25:24 AM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline adrianf74

  • Trade Count: (10)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 529
  • Gender: Male
Re: What to do with Mono soundboard used as bulk of mix?
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2021, 01:39:20 PM »
Thanks everyone for your help with this.

I was able to get my way through all of it to a mix that seems pretty decent all-around with a fake stereo soundboard track that doesn't sound too fake. 

Possibly the only other issue I'm dealing with is an overly bright acoustic guitar (it was the nature of the guitar being used in the set).  Curious if anybody has any suggests in the iZotope world to help dull this without affecting vocals or is this simply a matter of it's better to stick with what you've got.

Again, thanks everybody for your feedback and thoughts on this.  It was extremely helpful.
Mics: AKG ck63 > nBob Actives, Line Audio CM3, Church Audio CA-14 | Decks: Sony PCM-A10, Sound Devices MixPre-6 II |Power: Baby nBox, (Rechargeable USB Battery TBD), Church Audio Ugly Battery Box

Online checht

  • Trade Count: (5)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 461
  • Gender: Male
  • Old and in the Way
Re: What to do with Mono soundboard used as bulk of mix?
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2021, 01:47:38 PM »
Thanks everyone for your help with this.

I was able to get my way through all of it to a mix that seems pretty decent all-around with a fake stereo soundboard track that doesn't sound too fake. 

Possibly the only other issue I'm dealing with is an overly bright acoustic guitar (it was the nature of the guitar being used in the set).  Curious if anybody has any suggests in the iZotope world to help dull this without affecting vocals or is this simply a matter of it's better to stick with what you've got.

Again, thanks everybody for your feedback and thoughts on this.  It was extremely helpful.

This is a job for music rebalance!

Use it to separate stems, then work your eq on just the guitar, then mix back together.
Schoeps MK41s > nbob KCY >
Naiant PFA 60v > Sound Devices MP-6 II  or  Naiant IPA > Roland R-07
Recordings at LMA

Offline kuba e

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Taperssection Member
  • *
  • Posts: 443
  • Gender: Male
Re: What to do with Mono soundboard used as bulk of mix?
« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2021, 04:10:10 PM »
Thank you Gutbucket for a nice explanation. It's very interesting how to train syncing. I will try it in DAW, I will cover the waveforms. I'll try it on audience recording that I recorded with two pairs of microphones. And then I can check how far I'm from the perfect alignment.

I totally agree with your description of the purpose of making final recordings. I belong to the first group. It would have to be a really big exception for me to try to mix it myself. But Taperssection has a big advantage. Those who are experienced and belong to the second group can write to the taper about the original tracks. And then it can be interesting to compare two different mixes.

Adrianf74, how did you create fake stereo soundboard track? I once successfully used IR (impulse response) reverb on a dry sbd. Lots of IR types are available for free download on the Internet. For example, simulations of rooms of different sizes, halls, etc. You can also play with the reverb nicely and tune everything.

 

RSS | Mobile
Page created in 0.039 seconds with 29 queries.
© 2002-2022 Taperssection.com
Powered by SMF