Become a Site Supporter and Never see Ads again!

Author Topic: Zoom F3  (Read 11871 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline gaijin

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 34
Zoom F3
« on: January 19, 2022, 08:05:48 PM »
https://www.newsshooter.com/2022/01/19/zoom-f3/

Curious about the groups thoughts on this one.  I have not been a huge fan of the preamps on the Zooms historically.  Don't love the lack of a mini jack line in either. Curious if anyone has an opinion on this vs a MixPre3ii, the new Tascam Portacapture, or any similar devices.

Portable Recorder
Form Factor   Handheld Recorder
Primary Use Applications   Audio-for-Video
Number of Tracks   2
Number of Input Channels   2
Max Sample Rate/Resolution   192 kHz / 32-Bit
Microphone   None
Number of Mic Preamps   2
Built-In Speaker   No
Memory Card Support   microSDHC (4 GB to 32 GB)
microSDXC (64 GB to 1 TB)
Internal Storage   None
Special Features   Remote Control Capable (Remote Available Separately)

Recording
Audio File Formats   BWF, iXML
Sample Rates   44.1 / 48 / 88.2 / 96 / 192 kHz
Bit Depth   32-Bit
Signal Processing & FX   None
Timecode Support   Yes
Included Software   None

Connectivity
Analog I/O   2 x XLR 3-Pin Female Balanced Line/Mic Input (Lockable)
1 x 1/8" / 3.5 mm TRS Female Unbalanced Line Output
1 x 1/8" / 3.5 mm TRS Female Unbalanced Headphone Output
Digital I/O   None
Phantom Power   +24 / 48 V, Selectable On/Off
Phantom Power Current   10 mA per Channel
Host Connection   1 x USB Type-C (USB 2.0)
Audio Interface Capability   Stereo Only

Performance
Max Input Level   Mic Inputs:
+4 dBu
Line Inputs:
+24 dBu
Max Output Level   Line Outputs:
+1 dBu
Headphone Output Power   50 mW per Channel into 32 Ohms
Impedance   Mic/Line Inputs:
≥3 Kilohms
Line Outputs:
200 Ohms
Headphone Outputs:
200 Ohms
EIN   ≤-127 dBu

Power
Power Options   Battery, USB Bus Power, or AC/DC Power Adapter
Battery Type   2 x AA (Included)
Approximate Battery Life   48 kHz/32-Bit:
8 Hours (AA Alkaline, 2 Channels, Recording)
8.5 Hours (AA NiMH, 2 Channels, Recording)
18 Hours (AA Lithium, 2 Channels, Recording)
AC/DC Power Adapter   5 VDC at 1 A (Not Included)

Physical
Included Accessories   Batteries
Mounting Options   None
Dimensions   3 x 1.9 x 3" / 75 x 47.8 x 77.3 mm
Weight   8.5 oz / 242 g (with Batteries)

Available End of Feb 2022
MSRP $349.99

« Last Edit: February 17, 2022, 01:43:29 PM by gaijin »

Offline mcfoster

  • Trade Count: (4)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 216
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2022, 09:28:14 PM »
That thing looks pretty sweet. I would be afraid of losing it though. If it sounds really good and is affordable, I would up fr trying it. I wonder if it can do 8 hours with internal batteries on P48?
Recording:
AKG CK1X,2X,3X,8X>Modded MK46's>PFA's>Zoom H6
Sennheiser MK2E gopro elements> DR-05
Playback:
Peachtree Nova>Inspire Auidio SET EL84 tube amp>?Klipsch Crites Quartets, RF-7,JBL 4312

Offline kindms

  • Trade Count: (6)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 5684
    • The Breakfast
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2022, 09:35:08 AM »
does usb audio. would be a nice small recorder to pair with my sonosax m2d2 vs phone
AKG c426, AKG414 XLS/ST, AKG ck61, ck22, >nBob colettes >PFA > V3, SD MixPre >  TCM-Mod Tascam HDP2, Sony M10
Little Bear tube Pre >Outlaw Audio 2200 Monoblocks > VR-2's

Online fireonshakedwnstreet

  • Trade Count: (6)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 450
  • Gender: Male
  • David
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2022, 09:43:05 AM »
This looks really nice.
Mics: AT 3031; AT 853Rx (C,O); CA-14(c); Studio Projects C4 (C,O,H); Nak 300; JVC M510
Recorders: Tascam DR-680 MkII; Tascam DR-70D; Tascam DR-5; Tascam DR-2D
Pres: Edirol UA-5 (Oade PMod; Oade WMod); Naiant MidBox; Sound Devices MixPre

Offline rocksuitcase

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 7410
  • Gender: Male
    • RockSuitcase: stage photography
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2022, 01:51:16 PM »
So tiny. I was discussing with kindms that the apparent market for this is amateur video and field reporter types who work with small crews. Although it fits on a boom pole, it is certainly not a device for large scale movie/film production as the timecode isn't universal.
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E|DPA 4060 SK
Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI

Offline WiFiJeff

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 933
  • Gender: Male
  • I tape therefore I am.
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2022, 01:59:32 PM »
Japanese site is charging ~$310 for it, though it might be different here:

https://www.kizaiya.jp/shopdetail/000000001693/

Other than 32 bit, not sure why you would run it with an M2D2 since the A/D on that has to be better than the Zoom's, even an iPod Touch makes a better bitbox.  But 32 bits helps if you're trying to record crickets near a nuclear explosion, I guess.

Jeff

Offline WiFiJeff

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 933
  • Gender: Male
  • I tape therefore I am.
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2022, 02:07:09 PM »
B&H now has it listed for end of February, no price yet.

Offline rocksuitcase

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 7410
  • Gender: Male
    • RockSuitcase: stage photography
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2022, 02:23:40 PM »

Other than 32 bit, not sure why you would run it with an M2D2 since the A/D on that has to be better than the Zoom's, even an iPod Touch makes a better bitbox.  But 32 bits helps if you're trying to record crickets near a nuclear explosion, I guess.

Jeff
We were thinking using USB in does not use the AD on the f3. Probably incorrect, but maybe a menu setting?
Currently, kindms is using an old, no telephone line iPhone7S. Seemed to work GREAT the first time we used it.
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E|DPA 4060 SK
Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI

Offline Nico11104

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 95
  • Gender: Male
    • My records on the Live Music Archive
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2022, 03:04:52 PM »
I don't think it's as small as it seems.  Physical dimensions listed as 3" x 3" x 2".  By comparison, the F6 is 4" x 4.7" x 2.5".  So with an inch less of width and 1.7" less of length, you get four fewer preamps.  I know that when stealthing every inch counts but I don't think this is tiny.  It won't slip into your pocket, although it will mount on your belt

Offline kindms

  • Trade Count: (6)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 5684
    • The Breakfast
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2022, 04:13:35 PM »
Japanese site is charging ~$310 for it, though it might be different here:

https://www.kizaiya.jp/shopdetail/000000001693/

Other than 32 bit, not sure why you would run it with an M2D2 since the A/D on that has to be better than the Zoom's, even an iPod Touch makes a better bitbox.  But 32 bits helps if you're trying to record crickets near a nuclear explosion, I guess.

Jeff

To use as a dedicated USB audio recorder. Phone works fine but I like the idea of a dedicated recorder. so A/D in the m2d2 and just sending 1s and 0s to the zoom over USB.
AKG c426, AKG414 XLS/ST, AKG ck61, ck22, >nBob colettes >PFA > V3, SD MixPre >  TCM-Mod Tascam HDP2, Sony M10
Little Bear tube Pre >Outlaw Audio 2200 Monoblocks > VR-2's

Offline illconditioned

  • Trade Count: (9)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2962
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2022, 09:20:54 PM »
Got a love hate relationship with Zoom gear.
Love the small size and also the locking connectors on the F1 (stereo) and F2 (float) rigs.However, I've had the USB fail on a Zoom F1 and an H3-VR already.

Please DO NOT mail me with tech questions.  I will try to answer in the forums when I get a chance.  Thanks.

Sample recordings at: http://www.soundmann.com.

Offline heathen

  • Trade Count: (23)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3376
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2022, 04:10:37 PM »
I have not been a huge fan of the preamps on the Zooms historically. 

https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=186654.0
Mics: AT4050ST | AT4031 | AT853 (C/SC) | Line Audio CM3 | Sennheiser e614 | Sennheiser MKE2 | DPA 4061 | CA-14 omni Pres: CA9200 | DPA d:vice Decks: Zoom F8 | Roland R-05

Offline voltronic

  • Trade Count: (34)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3493
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2022, 08:08:40 AM »

Other than 32 bit, not sure why you would run it with an M2D2 since the A/D on that has to be better than the Zoom's, even an iPod Touch makes a better bitbox.  But 32 bits helps if you're trying to record crickets near a nuclear explosion, I guess.

Jeff

Comparing specs, the F3 and F6 look like they use same preamp circuit, but obviously different ADC.

I can believe that Sonosax has better A/D than Zoom, but I don't know how the iPod Touch would be a better bitbox than a dedicated audio recorder. Or are you just saying that in the context of using the M2D2 in front of it?

Regarding your "crickets" comment: Don't you own an F6? Mine has made what I do so much easier, specifically because of the auto-ranging dual DACs and 32 FP setup. When you're often recording your own performances, and/or don't have a rehearsal to set levels, you can just hit record and go without concern for limiters, safety tracks, etc. I feel like that this has been discussed to death on various threads, with most of the criticism coming from people who are making assumptions about these units without any firsthand experience.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2022, 08:10:20 AM by voltronic »
DPA 4061 ~ Line Audio CM3 ~ Naiant X-Q ~ AT 853  |  Naiant PFAs ~ Shure FP24  |  Zoom F6 ~ Sony PCM-M10
MOTU M2 ~ KRK Rokit RP5 ~ Sennheiser HD 650 ~ Etymotic ER4XR

Team Line Audio

Offline voltronic

  • Trade Count: (34)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3493
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2022, 08:26:27 AM »
I have not been a huge fan of the preamps on the Zooms historically. 

https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=186654.0

The Zoom H series preamps are quite noisy, and deserving of criticism. F6 and F8 in a different league, and are now on par with Sound Devices and other pro units in all areas except max input level. I haven't heard the F1 / F2 so I can't speak to those. As I said earlier, the F3 looks like it might use the same preamps as the F6.

If you need some proof: WiFiJeff posted some excellent solo piano recordings a while back made with an F6 (which I can't locate; maybe he will be willing to repost).

Here are some choir recordings of mine, all with an F6.

I also did some measurements of my F6 before/after upgrading firmware. There was a low-frequency noise issue in the F6 that you will see has been corrected by the latest firmware (even though the issue was totally inaudible).
DPA 4061 ~ Line Audio CM3 ~ Naiant X-Q ~ AT 853  |  Naiant PFAs ~ Shure FP24  |  Zoom F6 ~ Sony PCM-M10
MOTU M2 ~ KRK Rokit RP5 ~ Sennheiser HD 650 ~ Etymotic ER4XR

Team Line Audio

Offline voltronic

  • Trade Count: (34)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3493
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2022, 08:43:13 AM »
One concerning thing I just caught in the specs:

Quote
Phantom Power
Channel total 10 mA or less

Typically you see a spec of of 10 mA max for each channel. Something to be aware of when selecting mics. Most good mics don't have very high current consumption anymore, but you couldn't use a pair of AKG C414 or Gefell M221, for example.
DPA 4061 ~ Line Audio CM3 ~ Naiant X-Q ~ AT 853  |  Naiant PFAs ~ Shure FP24  |  Zoom F6 ~ Sony PCM-M10
MOTU M2 ~ KRK Rokit RP5 ~ Sennheiser HD 650 ~ Etymotic ER4XR

Team Line Audio

Offline heathen

  • Trade Count: (23)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3376
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2022, 09:02:16 AM »
The Zoom H series preamps are quite noisy, and deserving of criticism. F6 and F8 in a different league, and are now on par with Sound Devices and other pro units in all areas except max input level.

Good point, I overlooked that distinction.
Mics: AT4050ST | AT4031 | AT853 (C/SC) | Line Audio CM3 | Sennheiser e614 | Sennheiser MKE2 | DPA 4061 | CA-14 omni Pres: CA9200 | DPA d:vice Decks: Zoom F8 | Roland R-05

Offline WiFiJeff

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 933
  • Gender: Male
  • I tape therefore I am.
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2022, 10:29:03 AM »

I can believe that Sonosax has better A/D than Zoom, but I don't know how the iPod Touch would be a better bitbox than a dedicated audio recorder. Or are you just saying that in the context of using the M2D2 in front of it?


Just in the context of running the M2D2.  If you run the M2D2 digital-out, you might as well run to the iPod touch or an iPhone as the M2D2 won't do 32 bits.  If you run analog-out from the M2D2 you would get the A/D  of the F3.  My iPhone XR running Metarecorder runs for about 10-11 hours, when powering a DPA MMA-A and 4060 mics, and I calculate it would run around 13-14 hours with the M2D2.  An iPod Touch 7 recording (with Metarecorder) from an M2D2 (the M2D2 battery powering the mics and its own amp/AD) runs about 5 hours, which is a bit longer than the M2D2 gets on its internal battery.

Offline Ozpeter

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1270
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2022, 05:08:09 PM »
does usb audio. would be a nice small recorder to pair with my sonosax m2d2 vs phone

I doubt very much whether it records from its USB interface.  My reading of the available info is that it will be just the same as any other Zoom recorder, namely that you can use it as an interface to a computer, allowing the F3 mic inputs to be recorded on the PC, and playback on the PC could be heard on the Zoom.  It won't have a digital input for recording.

Offline Ozpeter

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1270
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2022, 07:34:57 PM »
I found the manual online - concerning the USB interface, it says (according to Google Translate) -

"Connect to a PC or smartphone / tablet to connect with an SD card reader and audio interface
Can be used. It supports USB bus power operation."

In the menus you can select whether you want to connect to PC/Mac, or to smartphone / tablet.
There are diagrams showing connection to PC/Mac or smartphones/tablets but no reference to connecting a USB-C audio device.

"You can set the loopback and monitor sound when using F3 as an audio interface.
Set loopback
Mix the playback sound of your computer or smartphone / tablet with the input sound of F3, and then use your computer or smartphone again.
You can send it to a phone / tablet (loopback).
You can add narration to the music played on your computer, record it on your computer, or stream it. "

Link to the manual - https://zoomcorp.com/media/documents/J_F3.pdf

Of course it might be possible to turn it into a USB-C audio recorder by FW update, but typically that would be to enable a USB mic to be connected.  I don't think that would be something that most users of such a device would want to do, so it probably wouldn't be worth their effort. 

I'm aware of only one device on the market that records from USB-C audio devices (obviously apart from PC/Mac/Android/iOS devices) and that's the DJI Action 2 video camera.  However that device only records to AAC format with no options to change audio settings, and while the audio quality is fine in relation to the use case and design intent of the device, it has no particular advantage over phones for location recording of audio.

« Last Edit: January 23, 2022, 07:40:59 PM by Ozpeter »

Offline kindms

  • Trade Count: (6)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 5684
    • The Breakfast
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2022, 11:32:48 AM »

I can believe that Sonosax has better A/D than Zoom, but I don't know how the iPod Touch would be a better bitbox than a dedicated audio recorder. Or are you just saying that in the context of using the M2D2 in front of it?


Just in the context of running the M2D2.  If you run the M2D2 digital-out, you might as well run to the iPod touch or an iPhone as the M2D2 won't do 32 bits.  If you run analog-out from the M2D2 you would get the A/D  of the F3.  My iPhone XR running Metarecorder runs for about 10-11 hours, when powering a DPA MMA-A and 4060 mics, and I calculate it would run around 13-14 hours with the M2D2.  An iPod Touch 7 recording (with Metarecorder) from an M2D2 (the M2D2 battery powering the mics and its own amp/AD) runs about 5 hours, which is a bit longer than the M2D2 gets on its internal battery.

I know my AD and how to maximize it. I again was simply liking the idea of a small dedicated recorder that i can use with the USB out on the M2D2. I have a free iphone7 that i have used successfully and its great. I can run it all day long etc as you say. But at the end of the day its also a phone and it cannot accept anything but USB audio. A small dedicated recorder that can do both USB audio as well as have other features I might find useful in small recorder is of value. Plus as well as the iphone works etc, I find the adapter and cabling a little clunky. So reducing that would be cool. I dont know if it would be worth $300+ cool. But a small recorder that has a USB and/or Digital in would be awesome for me. I have considered building a pi to do it but it would be bigger and more costly than a phone etc
AKG c426, AKG414 XLS/ST, AKG ck61, ck22, >nBob colettes >PFA > V3, SD MixPre >  TCM-Mod Tascam HDP2, Sony M10
Little Bear tube Pre >Outlaw Audio 2200 Monoblocks > VR-2's

Offline kindms

  • Trade Count: (6)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 5684
    • The Breakfast
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2022, 11:34:52 AM »
I found the manual online - concerning the USB interface, it says (according to Google Translate) -

"Connect to a PC or smartphone / tablet to connect with an SD card reader and audio interface
Can be used. It supports USB bus power operation."

In the menus you can select whether you want to connect to PC/Mac, or to smartphone / tablet.
There are diagrams showing connection to PC/Mac or smartphones/tablets but no reference to connecting a USB-C audio device.

"You can set the loopback and monitor sound when using F3 as an audio interface.
Set loopback
Mix the playback sound of your computer or smartphone / tablet with the input sound of F3, and then use your computer or smartphone again.
You can send it to a phone / tablet (loopback).
You can add narration to the music played on your computer, record it on your computer, or stream it. "

Link to the manual - https://zoomcorp.com/media/documents/J_F3.pdf

Of course it might be possible to turn it into a USB-C audio recorder by FW update, but typically that would be to enable a USB mic to be connected.  I don't think that would be something that most users of such a device would want to do, so it probably wouldn't be worth their effort. 

I'm aware of only one device on the market that records from USB-C audio devices (obviously apart from PC/Mac/Android/iOS devices) and that's the DJI Action 2 video camera.  However that device only records to AAC format with no options to change audio settings, and while the audio quality is fine in relation to the use case and design intent of the device, it has no particular advantage over phones for location recording of audio.

the sound devices mix pre II series do it
« Last Edit: January 24, 2022, 05:27:42 PM by kindms »
AKG c426, AKG414 XLS/ST, AKG ck61, ck22, >nBob colettes >PFA > V3, SD MixPre >  TCM-Mod Tascam HDP2, Sony M10
Little Bear tube Pre >Outlaw Audio 2200 Monoblocks > VR-2's

Offline gaijin

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 34
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2022, 12:35:15 PM »
I found the manual online - concerning the USB interface, it says (according to Google Translate) -

"Connect to a PC or smartphone / tablet to connect with an SD card reader and audio interface
Can be used. It supports USB bus power operation."

In the menus you can select whether you want to connect to PC/Mac, or to smartphone / tablet.
There are diagrams showing connection to PC/Mac or smartphones/tablets but no reference to connecting a USB-C audio device.

"You can set the loopback and monitor sound when using F3 as an audio interface.
Set loopback
Mix the playback sound of your computer or smartphone / tablet with the input sound of F3, and then use your computer or smartphone again.
You can send it to a phone / tablet (loopback).
You can add narration to the music played on your computer, record it on your computer, or stream it. "

Link to the manual - https://zoomcorp.com/media/documents/J_F3.pdf

Of course it might be possible to turn it into a USB-C audio recorder by FW update, but typically that would be to enable a USB mic to be connected.  I don't think that would be something that most users of such a device would want to do, so it probably wouldn't be worth their effort. 

I'm aware of only one device on the market that records from USB-C audio devices (obviously apart from PC/Mac/Android/iOS devices) and that's the DJI Action 2 video camera.  However that device only records to AAC format with no options to change audio settings, and while the audio quality is fine in relation to the use case and design intent of the device, it has no particular advantage over phones for location recording of audio.

the sound devices mix pre II series do it

I'm really curious about the details of this.  Does this approach work with any proper USB input device?  For example, if I connect a Shure MV-88+ to the MixPre3,6-ii, will I be able to record a set of tracks using it's USB connection?  All the references I have seen to the USB audio connectivity is in the context of to PC connections. Is there somewhere that explains how the functionality you're describing works?

Thanks in advance for any detail you can share.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2022, 12:37:00 PM by gaijin »

Offline kindms

  • Trade Count: (6)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 5684
    • The Breakfast
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2022, 05:26:59 PM »
I found the manual online - concerning the USB interface, it says (according to Google Translate) -

"Connect to a PC or smartphone / tablet to connect with an SD card reader and audio interface
Can be used. It supports USB bus power operation."

In the menus you can select whether you want to connect to PC/Mac, or to smartphone / tablet.
There are diagrams showing connection to PC/Mac or smartphones/tablets but no reference to connecting a USB-C audio device.

"You can set the loopback and monitor sound when using F3 as an audio interface.
Set loopback
Mix the playback sound of your computer or smartphone / tablet with the input sound of F3, and then use your computer or smartphone again.
You can send it to a phone / tablet (loopback).
You can add narration to the music played on your computer, record it on your computer, or stream it. "

Link to the manual - https://zoomcorp.com/media/documents/J_F3.pdf

Of course it might be possible to turn it into a USB-C audio recorder by FW update, but typically that would be to enable a USB mic to be connected.  I don't think that would be something that most users of such a device would want to do, so it probably wouldn't be worth their effort. 

I'm aware of only one device on the market that records from USB-C audio devices (obviously apart from PC/Mac/Android/iOS devices) and that's the DJI Action 2 video camera.  However that device only records to AAC format with no options to change audio settings, and while the audio quality is fine in relation to the use case and design intent of the device, it has no particular advantage over phones for location recording of audio.

the sound devices mix pre II series do it

I'm really curious about the details of this.  Does this approach work with any proper USB input device?  For example, if I connect a Shure MV-88+ to the MixPre3,6-ii, will I be able to record a set of tracks using it's USB connection?  All the references I have seen to the USB audio connectivity is in the context of to PC connections. Is there somewhere that explains how the functionality you're describing works?

Thanks in advance for any detail you can share.

It would seem I am WRONG. I was under the impression that they do allow USB audio in but from what Im reading in the manual it would seem that isn't correct. It seems it does require a computer as others have mentioned up thread about other devices.
AKG c426, AKG414 XLS/ST, AKG ck61, ck22, >nBob colettes >PFA > V3, SD MixPre >  TCM-Mod Tascam HDP2, Sony M10
Little Bear tube Pre >Outlaw Audio 2200 Monoblocks > VR-2's

Offline Ozpeter

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1270
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2022, 08:14:40 PM »
I'd lay money that before long, recording from USB devices will be implemented on location recording equipment - persuasive use case would be recording from kit like the Rode Wireless Go 2 USB output, or from the equivalent DJI device.  Or from the Sennheiser Ambeo binaural headset!  If DJI can do this with their Action 2 camera, then there's clearly no basic technical problem - unless there would be a conflict with using the recorder as an audio interface to a PC.  Maybe you can't do both in one device.

Offline mcfoster

  • Trade Count: (4)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 216
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #24 on: February 17, 2022, 12:54:57 PM »
Recording:
AKG CK1X,2X,3X,8X>Modded MK46's>PFA's>Zoom H6
Sennheiser MK2E gopro elements> DR-05
Playback:
Peachtree Nova>Inspire Auidio SET EL84 tube amp>?Klipsch Crites Quartets, RF-7,JBL 4312

Offline gaijin

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 34
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #25 on: February 17, 2022, 01:44:14 PM »

Offline aaronji

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (8)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *
  • Posts: 3450
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #26 on: February 17, 2022, 04:14:10 PM »
What's up with that screen, though? It's 2022 and all. It would probably only add a couple of bucks to the list price to have something a little more contemporary. It's worse than a first generation GameBoy...

Offline voltronic

  • Trade Count: (34)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3493
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #27 on: February 17, 2022, 09:07:19 PM »
One concerning thing I just caught in the specs:

Quote
Phantom Power
Channel total 10 mA or less

Typically you see a spec of of 10 mA max for each channel. Something to be aware of when selecting mics. Most good mics don't have very high current consumption anymore, but you couldn't use a pair of AKG C414 or Gefell M221, for example.

Looks like I was way off base on this. It's 10 mA per channel, as you would expect.
DPA 4061 ~ Line Audio CM3 ~ Naiant X-Q ~ AT 853  |  Naiant PFAs ~ Shure FP24  |  Zoom F6 ~ Sony PCM-M10
MOTU M2 ~ KRK Rokit RP5 ~ Sennheiser HD 650 ~ Etymotic ER4XR

Team Line Audio

Offline Ozpeter

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1270
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #28 on: February 18, 2022, 07:46:45 AM »
I have asked B&H whether there is any support for M/S mics - given that it's designed partly for video I would be surprised if it didn't even decode M/S to X/Y for headphone monitoring.  I really hope they have not overlooked this - it could be a dealbreaker for me (which would save me some money of course!).

[Edit - reading the English manual at https://zoomcorp.com/media/documents/E_F3.pdf it looks like there is no M/S support.  That astonishes me.]
« Last Edit: February 18, 2022, 08:00:08 AM by Ozpeter »

Offline Niels

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 83
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #29 on: February 18, 2022, 08:36:56 AM »
I have been out of the loop for some years regarding 32bit float.
Is the format now widely adapted, also in the entry level DAW's?

When the MixPre II series and F6 came out, I recall I checked and found out I couldn't work on the files in GarageBand or Hindenburg Lite.
Has that changed?
Roland R-07 -> FEL Communications Clippy EM172 or Roland CS-10EM
iPhone 8 -> Shure MV88 or Sennheiser AMBEO Smart Headset

Offline voltronic

  • Trade Count: (34)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3493
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #30 on: February 19, 2022, 08:18:50 AM »
I have been out of the loop for some years regarding 32bit float.
Is the format now widely adapted, also in the entry level DAW's?

When the MixPre II series and F6 came out, I recall I checked and found out I couldn't work on the files in GarageBand or Hindenburg Lite.
Has that changed?

I can't speak to those particular DAWs, but Reaper has handled float-point files without issues for years.
DPA 4061 ~ Line Audio CM3 ~ Naiant X-Q ~ AT 853  |  Naiant PFAs ~ Shure FP24  |  Zoom F6 ~ Sony PCM-M10
MOTU M2 ~ KRK Rokit RP5 ~ Sennheiser HD 650 ~ Etymotic ER4XR

Team Line Audio

Offline voltronic

  • Trade Count: (34)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3493
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #31 on: February 19, 2022, 08:26:18 AM »
I have asked B&H whether there is any support for M/S mics - given that it's designed partly for video I would be surprised if it didn't even decode M/S to X/Y for headphone monitoring.  I really hope they have not overlooked this - it could be a dealbreaker for me (which would save me some money of course!).

[Edit - reading the English manual at https://zoomcorp.com/media/documents/E_F3.pdf it looks like there is no M/S support.  That astonishes me.]

I have never liked the idea of applying a M/S decoding matrix straight to the recorder, as it defeats one of the most major benefits of M/S recording - being able to change the imaging in post. I completely agree, however, that having a decoding matrix for monitoring is a necessary feature, especially for boom pole operators which this unit seems perfectly designed for. If you are recording 32-bit float, there is no need to monitoring levels, but it would be nice to at least hear what's going into the mics in a "default" 50/50 M/S decode.

This is something that could probably be added via a firmware update.
DPA 4061 ~ Line Audio CM3 ~ Naiant X-Q ~ AT 853  |  Naiant PFAs ~ Shure FP24  |  Zoom F6 ~ Sony PCM-M10
MOTU M2 ~ KRK Rokit RP5 ~ Sennheiser HD 650 ~ Etymotic ER4XR

Team Line Audio

Offline Niels

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 83
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #32 on: February 19, 2022, 08:55:21 AM »
I have been out of the loop for some years regarding 32bit float.
Is the format now widely adapted, also in the entry level DAW's?

When the MixPre II series and F6 came out, I recall I checked and found out I couldn't work on the files in GarageBand or Hindenburg Lite.
Has that changed?

I can't speak to those particular DAWs, but Reaper has handled float-point files without issues for years.
Thanks. I think that was the case at the time, and I checked it out but found the UI unintuitive.
I'll look for a 32bit float file and see how it imports - not much info in he respective applications help fuction.
Roland R-07 -> FEL Communications Clippy EM172 or Roland CS-10EM
iPhone 8 -> Shure MV88 or Sennheiser AMBEO Smart Headset

Offline Ozpeter

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1270
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #33 on: February 19, 2022, 10:32:01 AM »
I have asked B&H whether there is any support for M/S mics - given that it's designed partly for video I would be surprised if it didn't even decode M/S to X/Y for headphone monitoring.  I really hope they have not overlooked this - it could be a dealbreaker for me (which would save me some money of course!).

[Edit - reading the English manual at https://zoomcorp.com/media/documents/E_F3.pdf it looks like there is no M/S support.  That astonishes me.]

I have never liked the idea of applying a M/S decoding matrix straight to the recorder, as it defeats one of the most major benefits of M/S recording - being able to change the imaging in post.... [snipped]

I am very sure that we are on the same page in that respect - but I will none the less mention that there are (for me at least) two merits in MS recordings.  One is that they can be decoded to provide whatever width is appropriate.  This can vary from mono (for speech), through various degrees of stereo for music or ambience, or you can have the side mics only and have an interviewer and victim either side of the fig of 8 capsule.  But there's actually no reason why normal X/Y recordings shouldn't be processed for width in post-production much as an MS recording is processed - you just need a plugin like Voxengo Msed to convert from XY to MS, vary the width, then reconvert back to XY.  However, the difference between an MS pair and an XY pair is that the MS pair has that front facing mic for most appropriate mono recording, and the fig of 8 mic for, well, fig of 8 applications.

So - when using an MS mic with a recorder which will decode the signal to XY before you record, there's no theoretical difference between that approach and the alternative of recording the MS pair 'as is' undecoded.  Pass either signal through MSED and you will end up with the same degree of choice over width, albeit by first converting the already dematrixed XY version back to MS, tweaking it, and converting to XY again, as compared with using the native MS recording 'as is' and tweaking it for width when dematrixing it with the plugin.

But having said all that, indeed the purist approach is simply to monitor in XY but record in MS, as you say.

Show me a nit and I will pick it...

Offline kuba e

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Taperssection Member
  • *
  • Posts: 445
  • Gender: Male
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #34 on: February 20, 2022, 05:03:46 PM »
Ozpeter is right. We can encode any stereo track left/right to mid/side and back to left/right without loss. But when we do editing in mid/side, it's good that the stereo doesn't have a time difference - it is recorded in coincident config (xy). If the stereo has a time differences - spaced config (din, ortf, ab ...) some degradation will occur when editing in mid/side and converting back to left/right. But it's not always disturbing, sometimes I do mid/side editing for spaced configs.

I think stereo mp3 is also encoded in mid/side and players decode it internally to left/right. When I created a stereo mp3 that contained only a mono recording but in two tracks, the file was still half the size. I assume there is zero side channel and only mid channel is compressed.

Recording with fig8+mid or with directional microphones in xy works on the same principle. We can get the same results with a pair of directional mics in xy as with fig8+mid. Very nice explanation is in this thread. At the end, our friends are explaining what are the practical differences when recording with mid and fig.8 vs directional mics in xy.
https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=193204.msg2320506#msg2320506

« Last Edit: February 22, 2022, 06:49:40 AM by kuba e »

Offline gaijin

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 34
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #35 on: February 22, 2022, 05:34:49 PM »
This looks like the first proper review:

https://www.audiotechnology.com/reviews/zoom-f3

Offline Niels

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 83
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #36 on: February 23, 2022, 07:11:39 AM »
What's up with that screen, though? It's 2022 and all. It would probably only add a couple of bucks to the list price to have something a little more contemporary. It's worse than a first generation GameBoy...
I guess they thought that you'll get all the resolution and color you want on the smartphone you use to control it with.
Roland R-07 -> FEL Communications Clippy EM172 or Roland CS-10EM
iPhone 8 -> Shure MV88 or Sennheiser AMBEO Smart Headset

Offline aaronji

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (8)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *
  • Posts: 3450
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #37 on: February 23, 2022, 09:55:27 AM »
^ I suppose, but, if I am standing right next to the thing, I would prefer not to deal with possible latency or connection issues and just monitor/control my recording using the built-in features. I doubt a more modern screen would have added much cost.

Offline WiFiJeff

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 933
  • Gender: Male
  • I tape therefore I am.
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #38 on: February 23, 2022, 10:34:28 AM »
And think of all those beautiful, maybe screen-related,  ultra-sonic hum resonances you'd be able to get, just like the Tascam X8! 

Offline voltronic

  • Trade Count: (34)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3493
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #39 on: February 23, 2022, 09:14:50 PM »
This looks like the first proper review:

https://www.audiotechnology.com/reviews/zoom-f3

I wish the reviewer had told people the whole story: It's 32-bit floating point, being fed by multiple auto-ranging ADCs. It's explained pretty well in the manual. He also says "dynamic range will be limited by your microphone and not your recorder." Not the whole story either - if you have a sensitive mic with a hot output recording a loud source, you can overload the preamp ahead of the ADC. (I had to be reminded of this in the F6 thread.)

Still, after using my F6 exclusively in 32-bit FP mode for over 2 years, I am happy to see Zoom drop the level controls for this simple 2-channel recorder. They are completely unnecessary for recording with this kind of setup, but hopefully there is plenty of adjustment for monitoring for those who need to do so.

DPA 4061 ~ Line Audio CM3 ~ Naiant X-Q ~ AT 853  |  Naiant PFAs ~ Shure FP24  |  Zoom F6 ~ Sony PCM-M10
MOTU M2 ~ KRK Rokit RP5 ~ Sennheiser HD 650 ~ Etymotic ER4XR

Team Line Audio

Offline cd2go

  • Trade Count: (10)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 512
  • Gender: Male
    • Strictly Slambovian
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #40 on: February 23, 2022, 11:48:50 PM »
This unit looks very interesting, I love small and simple. I will likely end up grabbing one to play with. I'm confused as to whether or not you can actually even (although you don't 'need' to) adjust the recording signal level? The full operation manual states:

Recording

The F3 records in 32-bit float format, so the input gain does not need to be adjusted. Depending on the input signals, however, waveforms shown on the display could appear too small or too large, making them difficult to check.
By changing the waveform display magnification, input waveforms can be adjusted to sizes that are easy to check. The magnification rate can be set separately for each input. The volume will also be changed according to the waveform magnification rate.

NOTE:
• The magnification rate can be set in 11 steps: ×1 , ×2, ×4, ×8, ×16, ×32, ×64, ×128, ×256, ×512 and ×1024. • Be careful with the volume if you are monitoring the input sound with headphones, for example.
Changing the magnification rate, even in the middle of recording, will not affect the recording level.

But the quick tour manual says:

Adjusting waveform amplification

Changing the amplification will change the volume and be applied to the recording data.
• Since the F3 records using 32-bit float WAV format, if monitored audio sounds distorted, lowering the volume of the recording file can restore the waveform to a state without clipping.


Seems conflicting?

Offline dallman

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (30)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • *
  • Posts: 1758
  • Gender: Male
    • Clifford Morse
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #41 on: February 24, 2022, 05:47:58 PM »
This unit looks very interesting, I love small and simple. I will likely end up grabbing one to play with. I'm confused as to whether or not you can actually even (although you don't 'need' to) adjust the recording signal level? The full operation manual states:

Recording

The F3 records in 32-bit float format, so the input gain does not need to be adjusted. Depending on the input signals, however, waveforms shown on the display could appear too small or too large, making them difficult to check.
By changing the waveform display magnification, input waveforms can be adjusted to sizes that are easy to check. The magnification rate can be set separately for each input. The volume will also be changed according to the waveform magnification rate.

NOTE:
• The magnification rate can be set in 11 steps: ×1 , ×2, ×4, ×8, ×16, ×32, ×64, ×128, ×256, ×512 and ×1024. • Be careful with the volume if you are monitoring the input sound with headphones, for example.
Changing the magnification rate, even in the middle of recording, will not affect the recording level.

But the quick tour manual says:

Adjusting waveform amplification

Changing the amplification will change the volume and be applied to the recording data.
• Since the F3 records using 32-bit float WAV format, if monitored audio sounds distorted, lowering the volume of the recording file can restore the waveform to a state without clipping.


Seems conflicting?
You can change the volume or the outputted signal, but not the gain which is the actual recorded level. That is why the wave is shown versus bars. I like that idea. That said if you go with a much bigger or smaller wave form that optimal for the end product, you can easily adjust in post and the sound will be just fine. (And yes I understand many have written about exceptions and possible problems where there could be distortion for one reason or another but in my few years of using the Zoom F6 and MixPre 6II for all kinds of music, blasting loud and painfully soft, I have yet to experience anything less than a stellar sounding recording.)
Support Live Music: Tape A Show Today!
Deck>possibly something here> Mics

Offline voltronic

  • Trade Count: (34)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3493
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #42 on: February 24, 2022, 06:27:58 PM »
OK, so it works like the F6 in the sense that you cannot adjust preamp gain, but you can adjust the post-ADC fader level (REC level as the F6 docs call it).
DPA 4061 ~ Line Audio CM3 ~ Naiant X-Q ~ AT 853  |  Naiant PFAs ~ Shure FP24  |  Zoom F6 ~ Sony PCM-M10
MOTU M2 ~ KRK Rokit RP5 ~ Sennheiser HD 650 ~ Etymotic ER4XR

Team Line Audio

Offline cd2go

  • Trade Count: (10)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 512
  • Gender: Male
    • Strictly Slambovian
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #43 on: February 25, 2022, 09:32:08 AM »
Thanks I think that helps clarify. So changing the magnification level indeed affects the recorded waveform level? I'm assuming that with amplified PA music low levels won't be an issue, but in the case of recording softer material is it better to try to get the volume from the machine while recording (via magnification), or boost in post in terms of noise/artifacts? I'm guessing since it's digital amplification there wouldn't be much difference?

Offline Ozpeter

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1270
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #44 on: February 26, 2022, 06:24:01 AM »
Recording will be at a fixed level.  Monitoring and playback will follow whatever amplification you apply to the waveform display.  "• Changing the amplification will change the volume and be applied to the recording data." means that the metadata for the recording will include the current amplification so it will play back (in the device at least) at that volume if you close the file and reopen it.  I don't know whether DAWs will also pick up that volume data.  I suspect there's a difference in meaning between recordED data - meaning the sound recording - and recordING data - meaning the metadata.

I don'r actually know any more than anyone else whether my interpretation of the manual is correct but if you bear in mind that "level" means input and "volume" means playback, then I'm pretty sure I'm right.

Offline voltronic

  • Trade Count: (34)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3493
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #45 on: February 26, 2022, 08:22:09 AM »
Recording will be at a fixed level.  Monitoring and playback will follow whatever amplification you apply to the waveform display.  "• Changing the amplification will change the volume and be applied to the recording data." means that the metadata for the recording will include the current amplification so it will play back (in the device at least) at that volume if you close the file and reopen it.  I don't know whether DAWs will also pick up that volume data.  I suspect there's a difference in meaning between recordED data - meaning the sound recording - and recordING data - meaning the metadata.

I don'r actually know any more than anyone else whether my interpretation of the manual is correct but if you bear in mind that "level" means input and "volume" means playback, then I'm pretty sure I'm right.

That's an interesting theory, but the WAV file header does not have a place to store playback volume info. The F3 would have to create separate metadata files to do what you describe.
https://docs.fileformat.com/audio/wav/

The block diagram on pg. 102 of the manual gives a little more clarity, IMO. Notice that Waveform Amplification (shown as a level trim) is directly in the path of everything that comes after it; not just Waveform Display which is simply a tap off of the main path. To me, this makes it clear that adjusting that setting does in fact affect the recorded level, in the same way you can with the F6 in 32FP when setting the trim pot controls to REC LEVEL. See the attached screenshots of the F3 and F6 block diagrams. F3 Waveform Display and F6 REC Level are in the same place in their respective signal chains. While this isn't hard proof, I think it makes sense that Zoom would carry over this implementation from the F6 to the F3.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2022, 08:23:42 AM by voltronic »
DPA 4061 ~ Line Audio CM3 ~ Naiant X-Q ~ AT 853  |  Naiant PFAs ~ Shure FP24  |  Zoom F6 ~ Sony PCM-M10
MOTU M2 ~ KRK Rokit RP5 ~ Sennheiser HD 650 ~ Etymotic ER4XR

Team Line Audio

Offline Ozpeter

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1270
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #46 on: February 26, 2022, 10:34:29 AM »
Well - it looks like I'll just have to buy one to find out - seems as good an excuse as any to me... :)   I note that the recorder uses iXML files which, having read about them for 30 seconds, seem potentially to cater for storing the waveform amplificaton data.  And it seems counterproductive that if you wanted a closer look at the waveform during recording, it would affect the recording level and thus screw up the recording.  And the manual says it doesn't.  So - colour me confused....  However, given that you have an F6 and I only have an F1, you know more about 32 bit recording than I do!

Offline cd2go

  • Trade Count: (10)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 512
  • Gender: Male
    • Strictly Slambovian
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #47 on: February 26, 2022, 12:09:25 PM »
And it seems counterproductive that if you wanted a closer look at the waveform during recording, it would affect the recording level and thus screw up the recording.

Totally. And if that is the case hopefully it will save last magnification settings used so you don’t have to fiddle too much with re-setting each channel if you repeatedly record the same general volume of material, as the benefit of this deck for me would be to ‘set on the high side and forget it’ unless I was recording much softer material. I have an email into them about that.

Offline dallman

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (30)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • *
  • Posts: 1758
  • Gender: Male
    • Clifford Morse
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #48 on: February 26, 2022, 08:05:33 PM »
Gain is fixed, so it will not matter if you oversize of undersize the wave file during recording. That is only showing you the output file. You just adjust in post and all will be fine.
Support Live Music: Tape A Show Today!
Deck>possibly something here> Mics

Offline voltronic

  • Trade Count: (34)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3493
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #49 on: February 27, 2022, 10:04:58 AM »
Well - it looks like I'll just have to buy one to find out - seems as good an excuse as any to me... :)   I note that the recorder uses iXML files which, having read about them for 30 seconds, seem potentially to cater for storing the waveform amplificaton data.  And it seems counterproductive that if you wanted a closer look at the waveform during recording, it would affect the recording level and thus screw up the recording.  And the manual says it doesn't.  So - colour me confused....  However, given that you have an F6 and I only have an F1, you know more about 32 bit recording than I do!

Not to belabor the point, but as cd2go pointed out Zoom actually say that it does and also that it does not affect the recorded level, depending on if you look in the Quick Start or the full manual. It's possible we're all wrong!
DPA 4061 ~ Line Audio CM3 ~ Naiant X-Q ~ AT 853  |  Naiant PFAs ~ Shure FP24  |  Zoom F6 ~ Sony PCM-M10
MOTU M2 ~ KRK Rokit RP5 ~ Sennheiser HD 650 ~ Etymotic ER4XR

Team Line Audio

Offline Ozpeter

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1270
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #50 on: February 28, 2022, 06:51:13 AM »
Without reading again what the manual(s) said, I think it's less confusing if you treat "recording" and "recorded" as different things, and "level" and "volume" as different things also - but indeed, the verdict will have to wait until a competent reviewer gets their hands on one.

Offline cd2go

  • Trade Count: (10)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 512
  • Gender: Male
    • Strictly Slambovian
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #51 on: February 28, 2022, 07:12:47 AM »
Let’s really beat this thing to death, this is a quote from an official Zoom video about the magnifier:

“…but it will also raise the volume of the recorded file that you’ll import into the computer.”

https://youtu.be/MsDIGWj4tYo

I have one on preorder from Zoom, looks like B&H is saying March 22…

Offline gaijin

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 34
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #52 on: February 28, 2022, 09:54:04 AM »
I'm assuming that with amplified PA music low levels won't be an issue, but in the case of recording softer material is it better to try to get the volume from the machine while recording (via magnification), or boost in post in terms of noise/artifacts? I'm guessing since it's digital amplification there wouldn't be much difference?

I'm continually curious about this - and have never understood a clear answer.  Specifically, if you have good / great preamps is there an expressed benefited to running "hot" (i.e. in 32-bit even if you're clipping here and there just let it go and bring it down in post) or better / just as good to run conservatively and apply a volume boost in a modern DAW in post?  I have seen several posts over the years of people positing that their recordings sound better when they are run "hot", sometimes potentially even briefly bouncing off the limiter vs. raising in post - is there any merit to this observation thought / claim? For my part I cannot clearly identify a preference or even a clear difference in cursory A/B testing.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2022, 02:32:43 PM by gaijin »

Offline Ozpeter

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1270
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #53 on: February 28, 2022, 06:19:37 PM »
Let’s really beat this thing to death, this is a quote from an official Zoom video about the magnifier:

“…but it will also raise the volume of the recorded file that you’ll import into the computer.”

https://youtu.be/MsDIGWj4tYo

I have one on preorder from Zoom, looks like B&H is saying March 22…

Well, that statement is still consistent with my earlier speculation that the last waveform magnification set is stored in the extended metadata file - it would only need to store one number in respect of each channel - and your DAW would use that as if the DAW itself had raised the digital gain.  They are talking about volume (playback) not level (recording).  We'll see...

Offline Ozpeter

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1270
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #54 on: February 28, 2022, 06:34:39 PM »
In other words, it's like "ReplayGain" in mp3 files.  "ReplayGain software stores information in the audio file's metadata header rather than directly affecting the original audio information. This metadata allows audio players and sound systems that support ReplayGain to adjust the volume to the desired level automatically."

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (15)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 14621
  • Gender: Male
  • "and the rowers keep on rowing!"
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #55 on: February 28, 2022, 09:32:58 PM »
"• Changing the amplification will change the volume and be applied to the recording data." means that the metadata for the recording will include the current amplification so it will play back (in the device at least) at that volume if you close the file and reopen it.  I don't know whether DAWs will also pick up that volume data.

I presume this will emulate the behavior of the F8, in which case the recorder remembers internal mixer levels for subsequent playback on the device, but a DAW reading the exported files won't know what the internal mixer levels on the recorder were (the case in my experience)
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline cd2go

  • Trade Count: (10)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 512
  • Gender: Male
    • Strictly Slambovian
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #56 on: February 28, 2022, 09:55:43 PM »
I presume this will emulate the behavior of the F8, in which case the recorder remembers internal mixer levels for subsequent playback on the device, but a DAW reading the exported files won't know what the internal mixer levels on the recorder were (the case in my experience)

And if this is how it ends up operating, hitting record is literally the only thing to do? So aside from wanting to see larger waveforms in real time, there would be no reason to use the magnifier/amplifier for the end result?

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (15)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 14621
  • Gender: Male
  • "and the rowers keep on rowing!"
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #57 on: March 01, 2022, 11:12:55 AM »
That's essentially how I run the F8 now, with input gain settings on the F8 preset. 

Even if not visually monitoring peak levels I'd want to see the meters movement to confirm everything is setup and working correctly. 

You'll want to set reasonable mixer levels if you monitor with headphones while recording and/or for trouble shooting.  I don't do that while recording, relying on visual confirmation by the meters.  But it's also nice to have something reasonably close to a good mix dialed in during recording for playing back from the recorder later (because the recorder remembers), even if doing so simply to audibly identify filesets.

musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline gaijin

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 34
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #58 on: March 01, 2022, 02:53:21 PM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQgO_FZuya8

Lots of good info here - one key takeaway for our purposes: Looks like about 3hrs @ 32 / 192 w/ P48 on 2 Eneloop Pros.  Presumably that will get a bit better with a reduced (i.e normal) sampling rate. 

Seems plenty good for our purposes, and you can certainly swap in a couple of spares during a set / artist break.

Offline gaijin

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 34
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #59 on: March 01, 2022, 02:58:42 PM »
By the way, his suggestion here is that the magnification setting does affect levels - he says if you don't set them at the same level when recording, it is a pain to correct in post (rough translation).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5afJBTb8eI&t=50s
« Last Edit: March 01, 2022, 03:01:28 PM by gaijin »

Offline dallman

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (30)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • *
  • Posts: 1758
  • Gender: Male
    • Clifford Morse
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #60 on: March 01, 2022, 11:50:21 PM »
I know there is a lack of understanding of the terms. On this deck, Gain is set, it cannot be adjusted. That is the incoming signal being recorded. The 2 ADC's in the deck are utilized to extend range so the recording (for the most part and baring a bunch of variables that likely will never happen) will not be distorted.

The output (the recording) is not set. You can raise it (volume) until it distorts, you may have the output set at the start of a recording so loud it distorts or be way too low or anything in between which you can see on the waveform on the screen. and yes you may have set levels so that one channel is louder than the other as you might do on any recording. The good news is whatever program you use when you unload your file will allow you to adjust and change that output (volume a/k/a fader level) exactly where you want it. If it is too loud or distorting, you can lower the levels in post and it will sound fine. If it is too soft, you can raise the levels in post and it will sound just fine. And if one channel is louder or softer than the other you can adjust the levels until they match. This is really no different than any recording or recorder once the recording is complete with the exception your adjustment if too loud, distorted or too low, will sound fine once adjusted which may not be the case on a 24bit or 16bit recording.
Support Live Music: Tape A Show Today!
Deck>possibly something here> Mics

Offline gaijin

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 34
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #61 on: March 02, 2022, 01:14:10 AM »
I know there is a lack of understanding of the terms. On this deck, Gain is set, it cannot be adjusted. That is the incoming signal being recorded. The 2 ADC's in the deck are utilized to extend range so the recording (for the most part and baring a bunch of variables that likely will never happen) will not be distorted.

The output (the recording) is not set. You can raise it (volume) until it distorts, you may have the output set at the start of a recording so loud it distorts or be way too low or anything in between which you can see on the waveform on the screen. and yes you may have set levels so that one channel is louder than the other as you might do on any recording. The good news is whatever program you use when you unload your file will allow you to adjust and change that output (volume a/k/a fader level) exactly where you want it. If it is too loud or distorting, you can lower the levels in post and it will sound fine. If it is too soft, you can raise the levels in post and it will sound just fine. And if one channel is louder or softer than the other you can adjust the levels until they match. This is really no different than any recording or recorder once the recording is complete with the exception your adjustment if too loud, distorted or too low, will sound fine once adjusted which may not be the case on a 24bit or 16bit recording.

But if you don't set the levels the same during recording and you then start playing with channel levels independently in post, are you not then potentially damaging the "level difference" aspect of the stereo recording?  It seems to me you should be careful with this device to always have the same magnification level set for both channels or you will run into trouble in post.

Offline Ozpeter

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1270
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #62 on: March 02, 2022, 02:55:20 AM »
The problem is that it has been implied (either in the manual/guide or by user(s), can't remember) that the magnifcation level / replay volume is somehow attached to the file.  Or not.  And if so, how?  And if so, if it is varied during recording, is the variation recorded, or just the final setting (which would be by far the easiest implementatoin of course, just one value for each channel).  And if it's a metadata thing, will DAWs read it at all anyway?  And if the magnification is varied during replay in the device after recording, is that new value saved in the same way?  'Cos if so, before editing, you could reset it to zero for each channel in the recorder, end of any problem when editing.  So - there are still quite a range of possiblities (and problems, potentially) with this magnification feature.

As for stereo image, no, varying channel levels is essentially no different to using a balance control.

Generally, it has to be remembered that live music recording may not be the prime target of this device - it may have two channels as much for two lav mics being worn by two people, on soft spoken and the other not, as for a natural stereo recording.

[Edit - ah I've seen the catch - there's no adjustment for magnification during playback on the device.  That's why you need to be careful with it.   But if your DAW doesn't respect the stored magnifcation volume, it doesn't really matter anyway.]

[Another edit - actually, it's possible that the magnification level doesn't get stored as such at all - it could be simply digital playback/monitoring volume control - the wording of the manuals could be read that way, if you take into account translation issues.]
« Last Edit: March 02, 2022, 03:26:53 AM by Ozpeter »

Offline cd2go

  • Trade Count: (10)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 512
  • Gender: Male
    • Strictly Slambovian
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #63 on: March 02, 2022, 09:25:04 PM »
Just got an email in stock alert from Sweetwater but I see no way to add it to cart :shrug: Currently stating 3 available...

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/F3Zoom--zoom-f3-2-input-field-recorder

Offline voltronic

  • Trade Count: (34)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3493
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #64 on: March 05, 2022, 07:36:54 AM »
Just got an email in stock alert from Sweetwater but I see no way to add it to cart :shrug: Currently stating 3 available...

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/F3Zoom--zoom-f3-2-input-field-recorder

I have always had the best experiences with Sweetwater when I spoke directly to one of their sales reps via phone or email.

Jason Koons (who I have bought many things from over the years) was able to get me an F6 when they were newly arriving but showing out of stock everywhere, including on SW's website.
DPA 4061 ~ Line Audio CM3 ~ Naiant X-Q ~ AT 853  |  Naiant PFAs ~ Shure FP24  |  Zoom F6 ~ Sony PCM-M10
MOTU M2 ~ KRK Rokit RP5 ~ Sennheiser HD 650 ~ Etymotic ER4XR

Team Line Audio

Offline cd2go

  • Trade Count: (10)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 512
  • Gender: Male
    • Strictly Slambovian
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #65 on: March 05, 2022, 02:43:57 PM »
Just got an email in stock alert from Sweetwater but I see no way to add it to cart :shrug: Currently stating 3 available...

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/F3Zoom--zoom-f3-2-input-field-recorder

I have always had the best experiences with Sweetwater when I spoke directly to one of their sales reps via phone or email.

Jason Koons (who I have bought many things from over the years) was able to get me an F6 when they were newly arriving but showing out of stock everywhere, including on SW's website.

Thanks, good to know. My Zoom order shipped and is a week away! I’ll update with any findings; not even sure if my current editing program (Amadeus Pro) does 32-bit float  :hmmm:

Offline detroit lightning

  • Trade Count: (8)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 686
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #66 on: March 05, 2022, 04:52:27 PM »
Excited to see how this thing works! Great potential as a set it and forget it device (on stage, at the board, etc.)

NOT trying to get into the 32bit debate with that comment…

Offline voltronic

  • Trade Count: (34)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3493
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #67 on: March 06, 2022, 07:58:37 AM »
Excited to see how this thing works! Great potential as a set it and forget it device (on stage, at the board, etc.)

NOT trying to get into the 32bit debate with that comment…

The only debate would be with people who haven't used multi-ADC 32FP recording. I have had an F6 since the early days of its release and only ever use 32FP mode. The "set and forget aspect" has totally proven itself. I record music with much wider dynamic range than most members here, and there have been zero audible artifacts of the auto-ranging ADCs switching. It is truly transparent.
DPA 4061 ~ Line Audio CM3 ~ Naiant X-Q ~ AT 853  |  Naiant PFAs ~ Shure FP24  |  Zoom F6 ~ Sony PCM-M10
MOTU M2 ~ KRK Rokit RP5 ~ Sennheiser HD 650 ~ Etymotic ER4XR

Team Line Audio

Offline aaronji

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (8)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *
  • Posts: 3450
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #68 on: March 06, 2022, 05:57:00 PM »
Or with people who realize it is not necessary if you figure out the relationship between your mics sensitivity and the maximum input of the recorder. If you like it, great. But it is not hard to put yourself in an "impossible to overload unless you overload the mics or recorder input" situation. It is interesting to note that the pro recorders, like the SD Scorpio/888/833 or Zaxcom Nomad, don't offer it. Those recorders also offer a pretty huge dynamic range, with dual (or more) ADCs, and they are basically impossible to overload if you take a minute to figure it out. Very simple with a recorder with a high input level...
« Last Edit: March 06, 2022, 05:59:06 PM by aaronji »

Offline Ozpeter

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1270
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #69 on: March 07, 2022, 05:47:39 AM »
Recording acoustic music, I gradually became aware that regardless of the size of the musical group involved, eg symphony orchestra down to solo acoustic guitar, I was always setting the gain control on my M/S mic preamp to the same level every time, and likewise the recorder.  Being a bear of very little brain, I marked these points with a big red line on the knobs'scales.  To compensate for the very different level emitted by an orchestra vs a guitar, it was a matter of being much closer to the guitar than to the orchestra - which was the natural thing to do with the M/S mic pair anyway.  So my theory was that there is only one level of sound (with its attendant dynamic range) in acoustic music, and so there's only one level to set with the equipment.  No 32 bit float required. 

Except... sometimes there were exceptions.  And you couldn't always be sure when an exception would strike and you'd see full scale on the meters, oops.  One example might be when an orchestra was fortissimo in a reverberant space, and you'd get a build up of reverb plus direct which would sum together to make the meters melt.  32 bit float would have been a source of comfort on those occasions.  But having said that, off the top of my head I don't recall a single instance where a live recording was seriously affected by incorrect level setting.  But it's a stress relief thing to have 32 bit float. 

The other stress relief thing was pointed out to me by a well known classical musician.  "Peter, you should always arrive an hour earlier than you need to at every concert.  That way you will have lees stress and you will live longer."   Unfortunately he was well known for turning up for concerts at the last minute.... but I think he's still alive...
« Last Edit: March 07, 2022, 05:49:18 AM by Ozpeter »

Offline aaronji

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (8)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *
  • Posts: 3450
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #70 on: March 07, 2022, 06:38:50 AM »
Except... sometimes there were exceptions.  And you couldn't always be sure when an exception would strike and you'd see full scale on the meters, oops.  One example might be when an orchestra was fortissimo in a reverberant space, and you'd get a build up of reverb plus direct which would sum together to make the meters melt.  32 bit float would have been a source of comfort on those occasions.  But having said that, off the top of my head I don't recall a single instance where a live recording was seriously affected by incorrect level setting.  But it's a stress relief thing to have 32 bit float. 

The problem, as I understand it, is that 32-bit float probably wouldn't save you in that situation. The "magic" non-clippable aspect applies to the digital domain; if you clip in the analog stage, it's just clipped. But the dual ADCs, and the huge dynamic range they impart, let you be a little more conservative in your analog gain setting, which hopefully helps with the exceptions. 

Offline Ozpeter

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1270
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #71 on: March 07, 2022, 07:27:03 AM »
Experiencing clipping at the mic itself or at a sensibly configured preamp wouldn't be likely in recording acoustic music with appropriately placed mics (even in a reverberant acoustic).  That's my point - in that kind of recording, the initial moderator of the level is the source-to-mic distance.  But indeed, other sound sources are a different kettle of fish.

Offline aaronji

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (8)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *
  • Posts: 3450
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #72 on: March 07, 2022, 07:29:20 AM »
^ Yes, I agree. The distance is really crucial. The only time I have managed to clip anything, really, was on-stage a little too close to Dave King, who can be a force of nature...

Offline dallman

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (30)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • *
  • Posts: 1758
  • Gender: Male
    • Clifford Morse
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #73 on: March 07, 2022, 09:39:31 AM »
Everything evolves. I've been taping since 1971. I remember the move to a tiny Walkman D6. Wow, it was the greatest. I just have to chuckle when I read arguments against not having to worry about clipping. It's a huge advantage whether you need it or not. Personally I think it's fantastic, and I never worried that I'd screw up my levels. It's still fantastic. I love my MixPre 6II and Zoom F6 decks. Plus it's coming like it or not (what's not to like? ) . I have not heard a single argument to date against it that sounds rational.
Reminds me of the chatter when Flash replaced DAT.  ;D
Support Live Music: Tape A Show Today!
Deck>possibly something here> Mics

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (15)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 14621
  • Gender: Male
  • "and the rowers keep on rowing!"
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #74 on: March 07, 2022, 10:31:45 AM »
^ Yes, I agree. The distance is really crucial. The only time I have managed to clip anything, really, was on-stage a little too close to Dave King, who can be a force of nature...\

As you mention, I've found on-stage drums to be what reaches and defines the practical SPL limit of my current F8-based rig.  On stage last Saturday night, or rather on-floor (no actual stage) up close to the band with my mics in an on-stage position necessary due to the highly reverberant nature of the performance space, drums clipped the input stage of one channel into the F8.  Input trim was turned all the way down, advanced limiting turned on.  Only happened once or twice over the course of the evening I think (had metering set to hold any input overs) and it isn't audible.  This mic-sensitivity input level limit can be avoided with the F8n, in which case I could switch input sensitivity from mic to line-input sensitivity and achieve greater headroom while retaining phantom power.

Knowing where that limit lies is the key.  Recording 24 bits, I mostly run F8 in this kind of set and forget 32-bit float type of way.  Sometimes I'll pull up the input gains across all channels for quiet stuff, not for but mostly just to get more level so I can see all the meters moving, including the rear-facing channels
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline aaronji

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (8)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *
  • Posts: 3450
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #75 on: March 07, 2022, 11:38:26 AM »
^^ I guess you're referring to me, but that's not really what I am saying. I have nothing against 32BF, but I realized that it is more complicated than the marketing stuff portrays. The "no need to set levels" is due to the multi-ADC architecture and the huge dynamic range that results. That's been around for a while, I think, but not in lower-priced stuff. I don't think I have changed the gain setting on my MixPre-6 (first version) in ages. No need, really. If I peak at -6 or -12 or even -22, it sounds pretty much the same once boosted in the DAW. The non-clippability is different. The Dave King recording I mentioned would virtually certainly have overloaded the F3 due to the sensitive mics (DPA 2006C; 40 mV/Pa) and being too close to a fired-up King!

As you mention, I've found on-stage drums to be what reaches and defines the practical SPL limit of my current F8-based rig. 


My last last few on-stage recordings, I cheated towards the other side of the stage a bit. More balanced that way, actually, when the drummer is hitting hard.

Knowing where that limit lies is the key.  Recording 24 bits, I mostly run F8 in this kind of set and forget 32-bit float type of way.  Sometimes I'll pull up the input gains across all channels for quiet stuff, not for but mostly just to get more level so I can see all the meters moving, including the rear-facing channels


That's basically what I was trying to say above...

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (15)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 14621
  • Gender: Male
  • "and the rowers keep on rowing!"
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #76 on: March 07, 2022, 12:32:44 PM »
My last last few on-stage recordings, I cheated towards the other side of the stage a bit. More balanced that way, actually, when the drummer is hitting hard.

Love running mics on stage.  Not too close, not too far.  There is no greater exciting realism for drums.  Regardless of mic'ing distance, I find a straight line-of-sight from mics to the snare to be a good rule of thumb,
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline darby

  • Trade Count: (98)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1333
  • Support artists and venues that allow recording
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #77 on: March 07, 2022, 04:51:05 PM »
I received my unit today...  all view magnification changes DO NOT effect the waveform
I ran some tests with various inputs and will have some shows coming up in a few
I plan on running one of my various preamps in front since it is so TINY

Offline cd2go

  • Trade Count: (10)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 512
  • Gender: Male
    • Strictly Slambovian
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #78 on: March 07, 2022, 05:02:23 PM »
Beat me! Awesome news keep us updated on your experiences  :cheers:

Offline Ozpeter

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1270
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #79 on: March 07, 2022, 05:11:38 PM »
I received my unit today...  all view magnification changes DO NOT effect the waveform
I ran some tests with various inputs and will have some shows coming up in a few
I plan on running one of my various preamps in front since it is so TINY

So, in essence, magnification is simply digital monitoring level?   And does the magnification setting carry over to replay - in the machine, not n the DAW - or does it only function while recording?  Looking forward to your updates!  I'd love to get one simply because it would represent to me the final stage in a very long audio recording journey (my first pro recording was in 1968!) , but I guess I'll leave it to the younger folks to carry the flag now!

Offline voltronic

  • Trade Count: (34)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3493
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #80 on: March 08, 2022, 05:48:20 AM »
Excited to see how this thing works! Great potential as a set it and forget it device (on stage, at the board, etc.)

NOT trying to get into the 32bit debate with that comment…

The only debate would be with people who haven't used multi-ADC 32FP recording. I have had an F6 since the early days of its release and only ever use 32FP mode. The "set and forget aspect" has totally proven itself. I record music with much wider dynamic range than most members here, and there have been zero audible artifacts of the auto-ranging ADCs switching. It is truly transparent.

I should clarify my earlier post:

I was not taking issue with people who choose not to use this recording method, nor was I saying it solves all of your problems. You can still overload the input stage, as Ozpeter and aaronj point out.

The point I was trying to make is that the technology works and does so seamlessly, and that the concerns expressed on this board about detrimental effects / artifacts have not borne out in practice.
DPA 4061 ~ Line Audio CM3 ~ Naiant X-Q ~ AT 853  |  Naiant PFAs ~ Shure FP24  |  Zoom F6 ~ Sony PCM-M10
MOTU M2 ~ KRK Rokit RP5 ~ Sennheiser HD 650 ~ Etymotic ER4XR

Team Line Audio

Offline voltronic

  • Trade Count: (34)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3493
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #81 on: March 08, 2022, 05:50:56 AM »
I received my unit today...  all view magnification changes DO NOT effect the waveform
I ran some tests with various inputs and will have some shows coming up in a few
I plan on running one of my various preamps in front since it is so TINY

Thanks for reporting back. Wow, that is a small device!

Side question: Did you make those side-exit XLRs yourself, or were they a custom build by a vendor?
DPA 4061 ~ Line Audio CM3 ~ Naiant X-Q ~ AT 853  |  Naiant PFAs ~ Shure FP24  |  Zoom F6 ~ Sony PCM-M10
MOTU M2 ~ KRK Rokit RP5 ~ Sennheiser HD 650 ~ Etymotic ER4XR

Team Line Audio

Offline darby

  • Trade Count: (98)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1333
  • Support artists and venues that allow recording
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #82 on: March 08, 2022, 09:14:12 AM »
I received my unit today...  all view magnification changes DO NOT effect the waveform
I ran some tests with various inputs and will have some shows coming up in a few
I plan on running one of my various preamps in front since it is so TINY

Thanks for reporting back. Wow, that is a small device!

Side question: Did you make those side-exit XLRs yourself, or were they a custom build by a vendor?

I spent TOO much and purchased them... they are adjustable

Offline cd2go

  • Trade Count: (10)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 512
  • Gender: Male
    • Strictly Slambovian
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #83 on: March 08, 2022, 09:17:55 PM »
Side question: Did you make those side-exit XLRs yourself, or were they a custom build by a vendor?

I spent TOO much and purchased them... they are adjustable

Very sleek! Are these the brand?

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1296365-REG/cable_techniques_ct_lpxr_10r_low_profile_xlr_3_pin_10.html

Looks like they distribute parts/kits through Redding Audio for the more electronically industrious amongst us:

https://www.cabletechniques.com
« Last Edit: March 08, 2022, 09:33:03 PM by cd2go »

Offline Ozpeter

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1270
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #84 on: March 14, 2022, 09:13:57 PM »
In this video - https://youtu.be/zpoFhCCi2VE - it's stated that magnification level changes during recording do not affect the recorded file, but that magnification changes set before recording DO affect the recorded file - if that's the case doesn't that negate the object of using 32 bit float (ie no need to have recording level setting)?  Or maybe the idea is that 32 bit float has such a vast headroom that even upping the recorded level to the maximum you still won't get digital clipping (if you bring the level down in your DAW).... help!  I'm confused...

Offline cd2go

  • Trade Count: (10)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 512
  • Gender: Male
    • Strictly Slambovian
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #85 on: March 15, 2022, 12:08:53 AM »
  Or maybe the idea is that 32 bit float has such a vast headroom that even upping the recorded level to the maximum you still won't get digital clipping (if you bring the level down in your DAW).... help!  I'm confused...

This is my understanding, and hope; and that it works the other way as well for noise floor on a file recorded “too” low.

Offline voltronic

  • Trade Count: (34)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3493
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #86 on: March 15, 2022, 06:56:29 AM »
  Or maybe the idea is that 32 bit float has such a vast headroom that even upping the recorded level to the maximum you still won't get digital clipping (if you bring the level down in your DAW).... help!  I'm confused...

This is my understanding, and hope; and that it works the other way as well for noise floor on a file recorded “too” low.

On my F6, if I set the channel knobs to REC level, I can crank them all the way and record files that have ridiculously high levels - we're talking +50 dB or more. Once I copy those files over and import into a wave editor, those levels can be brought down under 0 dBFS and there is no clipping.

My general habit now is to record with the channel levels set at +20 dB, only because I find I have to adjust the overall level less in post. It really doesn't matter though.
DPA 4061 ~ Line Audio CM3 ~ Naiant X-Q ~ AT 853  |  Naiant PFAs ~ Shure FP24  |  Zoom F6 ~ Sony PCM-M10
MOTU M2 ~ KRK Rokit RP5 ~ Sennheiser HD 650 ~ Etymotic ER4XR

Team Line Audio

Offline cd2go

  • Trade Count: (10)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 512
  • Gender: Male
    • Strictly Slambovian
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #87 on: March 16, 2022, 09:09:03 PM »
Received my unit yesterday!

First off, to confirm once and for all:

Magnification settings done before starting a recording DO affect the level of the .wav brought into your DAW

It also saves your magnification settings on each channel after power down and swapping batteries, that's nice. It is incredibly small in person, more so even than in pictures. It's a solid mass and feels well built. It sits perched sturdily on a desk for those using it as an interface. The battery door is a bit thin and doesn't instill confidence in longevity but so are the ones on my Tascams and I haven't had a problem with those in 10 years. One thing I do not like is that after starting a recording, if you slide the record button up to record again, it stops the recording. Not a huge deal but the switch does move very easily and I can't imagine why it functions this way. I believe on most recorders pressing record again makes a new track or marks the file. What reason would you ever have to stop a recording so quickly that you can't take the time to hit the actual stop button--besides wanting either of the aforementioned actions? Even though you should be using the hold function, I still see no reason for that, it's just a liability.   

I did a test recording some music and then room silence on the minimum and maximum magnification settings. The quieter file peaked at -43dB and the louder file +16dB. I normalized each to -.1dB and then listened to the silent portions. They were nearly indistinguishable, and I'm sure that in a controlled environment the noise floors would sound exactly the same.

For my Energizer E2 battery runtime test, I set it to 48kHz, lowered the headphone volume to zero (nothing connected), left the magnification to the stock 16x on both channels and ran 2 CCM 4 mics with 48V phantom power. Total record time was 6:37, which I'm very pleased with. That's about an hour less than my current recorders but with one less battery.

This is the perfect box for no fuss 2 channel XLR recording. I will likely pick up another for when I do matrix shows. Look forward to running it out in the field soon. Any other questions that can be answered just ask  8)
« Last Edit: March 16, 2022, 09:23:21 PM by cd2go »

Offline detroit lightning

  • Trade Count: (8)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 686
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #88 on: March 16, 2022, 09:11:56 PM »
Received my unit yesterday!

First off, to confirm once and for all:

Magnification settings done before starting a recording DO affect the level of the .wav brought into your DAW

It also saves your magnification settings on each channel after power down and swapping batteries, that's nice. It is incredibly small in person, more so even than in pictures. It's a solid mass and feels well built. It sits perched sturdily on a desk for those using it as an interface. The battery door is a bit thin and doesn't instill confidence in longevity but so are the ones on my Tascams and I haven't had a problem with those in 10 years. One thing I do not
like is that after starting a recording, if you slide the record button up to record again, it stops the recording  ??? Not a huge deal but the switch does move very easily and I can't imagine why it functions this way. I believe on most recorders pressing record again makes a new track or marks the file. What reason would you ever have to stop a recording so quickly that you can't take the time to hit the actual stop button--besides wanting either of the aforementioned actions? Even though you should be using the hold function, I still see no reason for that, it's just a liability.   

I did a test recording some music and then room silence on the minimum and maximum magnification settings. The quieter file peaked at -43dB and the louder file +16dB. I normalized each to -.1dB and then listened to the silent portions. They were nearly indistinguishable, and I'm sure that in a controlled environment the noise floors would sound exactly the same.

For my Energizer E2 battery runtime test, I set it to 48kHz, lowered the headphone volume to zero (nothing connected), left the magnification to the stock 16x on both channels and ran 2 CCM 4 mics with 48V phantom power. Total record time was 6:37, which I'm very pleased with. That's about an hour less than my current recorders but with one less battery.

This is the perfect box for no fuss 2 channel XLR recording. I will likely pick up another for when I do matrix shows. Look forward to running it out in the field soon. Any other questions that can be answered just ask  8)

+t thank you for this review! Answered many questions...great stuff!

Offline vwmule

  • Trade Count: (16)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1940
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #89 on: March 16, 2022, 11:40:18 PM »
> One thing I do not like is that after starting a recording, if you slide the record button up to record again, it stops the recording. Not a huge deal but the switch does move very easily and I can't imagine why it functions this way.

This sounds rather bleak, actually.

Offline Ozpeter

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1270
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #90 on: March 17, 2022, 03:09:43 AM »
I guess that it will be necessary to always slide one way to record, and then the other way immediately to hold.  Maybe they thought that an accidental press of the stop button would be more likely compared to an accidental slide of the record control.  But it does seem a bit risky...

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (15)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 14621
  • Gender: Male
  • "and the rowers keep on rowing!"
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #91 on: March 17, 2022, 11:08:20 AM »
Check the system menu structure to see if there is a setting for what happens when pressing (or sliding) record while already recording. 

Just thinking it might be similar to F8 where the Play button can be set to pause or mark, or pause + mark, as well as being set separately for recording and playback.  I think the Record button function can be modified as well, maybe starting a new recording verses pausing or something, but I can't recall the details of that one.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline cd2go

  • Trade Count: (10)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 512
  • Gender: Male
    • Strictly Slambovian
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #92 on: March 17, 2022, 12:08:57 PM »
Check the system menu structure to see if there is a setting for what happens when pressing (or sliding) record while already recording. 

Just thinking it might be similar to F8 where the Play button can be set to pause or mark, or pause + mark, as well as being set separately for recording and playback.  I think the Record button function can be modified as well, maybe starting a new recording verses pausing or something, but I can't recall the details of that one.

I don’t see that there is unfortunately. Is this something that firmware is able to address?

Offline darby

  • Trade Count: (98)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1333
  • Support artists and venues that allow recording
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #93 on: March 23, 2022, 11:19:57 AM »
finally got around to using it last night
I set the the display for 4x on each channel for the opener and I ended up going OVER by about 2dB, but it was fine after lowering in post
for the main act, I ran the the display at 1x and had to raise levels in post about 5dB (Schoeps mk22/NBobs > NBox Elite)

SO THE DISPLAY IS BASICALLY A VOLUME CONTROL


I really like the ease of operation and the small size, plus it didn't use too many lights on my ANKER

Offline cd2go

  • Trade Count: (10)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 512
  • Gender: Male
    • Strictly Slambovian
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #94 on: March 23, 2022, 11:58:28 AM »
Good to hear; yes the simplicity and size are quite appealing, thanks for the update!

Offline One Cylinder

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (5)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • *
  • Posts: 209
  • Gender: Male
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #95 on: March 24, 2022, 08:46:26 AM »
How’s the A/D converter on the F3?

finally got around to using it last night
I set the the display for 4x on each channel for the opener and I ended up going OVER by about 2dB, but it was fine after lowering in post
for the main act, I ran the the display at 1x and had to raise levels in post about 5dB (Schoeps mk22/NBobs > NBox Elite)

SO THE DISPLAY IS BASICALLY A VOLUME CONTROL


I really like the ease of operation and the small size, plus it didn't use too many lights on my ANKER
Schoeps MK4(x2) MK21(x2) CMC6(x4) CMC1K(x2) KC5(x2)
Sonosax SX-M2, Grace Design ACM Lunatec V3
Roland OCM R-44

Offline voltronic

  • Trade Count: (34)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3493
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #96 on: March 24, 2022, 08:19:59 PM »
finally got around to using it last night
I set the the display for 4x on each channel for the opener and I ended up going OVER by about 2dB, but it was fine after lowering in post
for the main act, I ran the the display at 1x and had to raise levels in post about 5dB (Schoeps mk22/NBobs > NBox Elite)

SO THE DISPLAY IS BASICALLY A VOLUME CONTROL


I really like the ease of operation and the small size, plus it didn't use too many lights on my ANKER

So my interpretation of the block diagram was correct; the F3 "waveform amplification" works just like the F6 when track knobs are set to REC LEVEL mode.

Thanks for the report! I'm thinking if all goes well, the F3 may become a popular recommendation for a compact one-box recording setup.
DPA 4061 ~ Line Audio CM3 ~ Naiant X-Q ~ AT 853  |  Naiant PFAs ~ Shure FP24  |  Zoom F6 ~ Sony PCM-M10
MOTU M2 ~ KRK Rokit RP5 ~ Sennheiser HD 650 ~ Etymotic ER4XR

Team Line Audio

Offline gaijin

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 34
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #97 on: March 25, 2022, 07:12:43 AM »
Mine turned up from B&H yesterday.  As mentioned previously, it is significantly smaller than the pictures made me think it would be.  Setup was simple / did not require manual.  Build quality is about on par with similar devices in this price range, although as mentioned, the battery door does feel rickety / cheap like you'd find on a child's toy.

I'm going to try to get out to a small jazz club this weekend with either Line Audio CM4 or OM1 fed directly into the F3 and will share a sample when available.

I am particularly curious about how "good" it will sound as compared to what I get out of CM4 direct XLR in to my MixPre3-ii - which I love.  For anyone with experience with the Zooms, any predictions?  I anticipate it is going to be a bit more bright / harsh and not as warm, which seems to be a unique quality of the MixPre line as compared to my previous experiences with Zoom devices.  Obviously there will obviously be a bit more preamp noise, but I'm guessing that will be largely insignificant in our applications.

I do note that some are using these line-in with a USBPre providing amplification.  To me this significantly reduces the utility of the device - if I need to have something like a USBPre in front I'd just as soon use my MixPre3-ii instead as it is a smaller footprint and not any better from a security perspective.

Will report back soon.

Offline voltronic

  • Trade Count: (34)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3493
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #98 on: March 25, 2022, 09:24:06 PM »
Mine turned up from B&H yesterday.  As mentioned previously, it is significantly smaller than the pictures made me think it would be.  Setup was simple / did not require manual.  Build quality is about on par with similar devices in this price range, although as mentioned, the battery door does feel rickety / cheap like you'd find on a child's toy.

I'm going to try to get out to a small jazz club this weekend with either Line Audio CM4 or OM1 fed directly into the F3 and will share a sample when available.

I am particularly curious about how "good" it will sound as compared to what I get out of CM4 direct XLR in to my MixPre3-ii - which I love.  For anyone with experience with the Zooms, any predictions?  I anticipate it is going to be a bit more bright / harsh and not as warm, which seems to be a unique quality of the MixPre line as compared to my previous experiences with Zoom devices.  Obviously there will obviously be a bit more preamp noise, but I'm guessing that will be largely insignificant in our applications.

I do note that some are using these line-in with a USBPre providing amplification.  To me this significantly reduces the utility of the device - if I need to have something like a USBPre in front I'd just as soon use my MixPre3-ii instead as it is a smaller footprint and not any better from a security perspective.

Will report back soon.

Looking forward to your report. If it uses the same preamps as the F6, I would be surprised if you found it to be bright or harsh. I record with my CM3s direct into my F6 more than any other combination. I don't have a MixPre-II to compare against, though. I agree that using an external preamp with this kind of defeats the purpose.

As for preamp noise, I doubt you'd notice any. Gain on the F3 is fixed at a fairly low level (again, assuming the F6 preamp design is followed). Your mic self-noise would almost certainly be higher than any noise from the preamp.
DPA 4061 ~ Line Audio CM3 ~ Naiant X-Q ~ AT 853  |  Naiant PFAs ~ Shure FP24  |  Zoom F6 ~ Sony PCM-M10
MOTU M2 ~ KRK Rokit RP5 ~ Sennheiser HD 650 ~ Etymotic ER4XR

Team Line Audio

Offline gaijin

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 34
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #99 on: April 06, 2022, 12:39:09 AM »
Had my first time out with the device last weekend.  >:D in a very small jazz hall (An Die Musik in Baltimore).  Band was the Paul Carr Legacy Quartet.

Recorded with Line Audio OM1 (48V) in Healy Technique, mounted to a stationary >:D "object" @ DFC, approximately 2 feet away from stage lip and about 3 ft high with no obstructions.  Show was about an hour and a half and I appeared to have about 50% battery left when done (but recording was inadvertently stopped for a while, see point below).

Overall experience with the device was good, however the slide start / stop record thing is decidedly poor.  Especially in a  >:D situation, given the very minor amount of force required to activate the slide function, there is a significant potential for a minor bump or even cables settling in a bag to stop recording inadvertently.  This occurred during this outing, and I lost a portion of the show on this device as a result.  Not a fan.  A simple update requiring a 2 second hold slide would greatly reduce what seems to be a pretty significant risk to me (have a high number of  >:D shows under my belt and have a well worked out "system" - in spite of that this happened to me on the first outing).  I can't recall the last time I've had an issue with a recorder being stopped when I was able to check it (other than perhaps a dead battery).

Re: Tone - To my ear it is definitely brighter and lacks some of the warmth I am used to in this hall with these mics wired into a SD MixPre3/6-ii.  I would say there is plenty of bass there and the recording is pleasing enough, but something is off and weighted toward what I would describe as bright as compared to several previous recordings with the same rig into the MixPre.  Certainly "correctable" with EQ in post but it does reinforce my affection for the "out of the box" SD sound. Obviously I need some more shows under my belt with the device to corroborate these initial thoughts.   These things are hard to nail down - it could be entirely placebo effect.

As mentioned previously by myself and others, the size of this thing is tiny and this is its biggest asset.  Since I purchased my first fully digital recorder (Sony PCM-D1) I have been longing for something very small, with no (inevitably poor) internal mics adding to the footprint, and including XLR connectivity as I have always loved the simplicity of a single reliable cable in between the each mic and the recorder.  Lately, after using other 32-bit devices, this requirement has also made it on to my list.  Especially for  >:D or even semi- >:D the ability to completely ignore gain settings on the device has been a game changer for both me and my setup / ease of deployment.  With those requirements in mind, this device comes closest to a realization of that dream, and as a result I will likely be using this for any place where  >:D and security is a concern. 

At some other venues I frequent where it's not explicitly open taping but more of a "be discrete" policy, I think I would still be more likely to bring out the SD as it is more tonally pleasing direct from the device (to my taste) and the slight increase in size doesn't matter to me as I'm not trying to crotch the thing.

I'll report back again after another go at it this weekend in a large opera hall setting from FOB with the CM4s.  Eager to see how it performs with those mics as well.

Hope this is useful others.  Let me know if you have any questions.  Raw from device WAV sample of a track can be found grabbed here for a week: https://we.tl/t-1IxD6OpCMm

Offline Ozpeter

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1270
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #100 on: April 06, 2022, 09:31:59 AM »
I look forward to hearing this sample later, thanks for posting that and your account of your real-world experience.  I suspect that Zoom did not think in terms of this kind of taping when designing the device and that's why the obvious problems with the record slider (in that situation) were not encountered (presumably) in their testing.  Did you have the switch in the "hold" position, meaning that it was pushed from "hold" all the way to "stop recording?"  Without consulting photos of the device I strongly suspect that someone will come out with a third party physical device to protect the switch from inadvertent operation - or that they will fix the problem with a firmware update (for instance, requiring a two button operation to stop - a long hold of the button might well not have fixed the problem in the bag you encountered if indeed a cable was resting on the switch).

[Edited to add that I'm listening to the sample right now - nice! - but I felt the need to lift the upper frequencies somewhat, as the cymbal sound in particular sounded a bit veiled to me.  But I'm listening with 73 year old ears... yesterday they were only 72 years old... sigh!]
« Last Edit: April 06, 2022, 10:48:38 AM by Ozpeter »

Offline gaijin

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 34
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #101 on: April 06, 2022, 02:55:02 PM »
Thanks for the feedback / thoughts / ideas.  It's my pleasure to share my experience, glad it's helpful.

Few points / thoughts:
  • The record switch was locked when I placed the device.  It doesn't take much force at all to disengage the lock.
  • Good point about the long hold being shortsighted - it is possible that the cable scenario would still cause the recording to stop.
  • I'm not sure what happened but I would suspect that after deploying said object something settled just the right way to slide the switch.
  • I did buy the BT module for connecting to phone / monitoring - this would have helped catch this quickly but unfortunately the previously promised March launch for the Android software appears to be vaporware at this point - now saying "Spring 2022"
  • Interesting feedback on the equalization - can't say it was unexpected.  There are so many variables affecting what is heard (not the least of which is the playback hardware), so it's certainly within reason that your observation is the exact opposite of mine!  One more reminder not to get too heavy handed with EQ and stay more purist, I suppose.

Lastly, a belated Happy Birthday to you!  I'm hoping I still have ears to speak of by the time I am 73!  Glad to see you're still in the game.

Offline vwmule

  • Trade Count: (16)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1940
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #102 on: April 07, 2022, 12:19:37 AM »
 "given the very minor amount of force required to activate the slide function, there is a significant potential for a minor bump or even cables settling in a bag to stop recording inadvertently."

We are not target audience but this design flaw is universal and inexcusable.

Offline gaijin

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 34
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #103 on: April 07, 2022, 07:52:18 AM »
"given the very minor amount of force required to activate the slide function, there is a significant potential for a minor bump or even cables settling in a bag to stop recording inadvertently."

We are not target audience but this design flaw is universal and inexcusable.

It's particularly frustrating that they felt the need to "improve" an existing, field proven, verified working design.  Why the typical approach of a slightly recessed record button and a dedicated lock switch needed a redesign is not clear to me and worse, nothing seems to have been made better in the process.  The German notion of "schlimmbesserung" comes to straight to mind.

Offline Ozpeter

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1270
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #104 on: April 07, 2022, 06:09:44 PM »
Thanks for the feedback / thoughts / ideas.  It's my pleasure to share my experience, glad it's helpful.

...

Lastly, a belated Happy Birthday to you!  I'm hoping I still have ears to speak of by the time I am 73!  Glad to see you're still in the game.

Thanks!  I'm chiefly into video these days.  But the F3 tempted me until I saw that it doesn't support M/S monitoring.  I do have the F1 - that has an option to lock the buttons during recording, and you have to press "stop" and "record" at the same time to stop recording and unlock.  I would have thought that would be the way to fix this problem on the F3 (presumably it doesn't have that option hidden in the menus somewhere?   Given its family resemblance to the F1, it would have been the obvious thing to do).

Offline illconditioned

  • Trade Count: (9)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2962
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #105 on: April 08, 2022, 03:13:13 AM »
I liked the F3 because it would "move" view during playback.That is, if you record ambisonic, you can move the unit while it is playing, and it will move the listener.Pretty cool interface.
Unfortunately, the USB connector on it broke.  Very unhappy with Zoom.  Great projects, but poor quality control and design.

Please DO NOT mail me with tech questions.  I will try to answer in the forums when I get a chance.  Thanks.

Sample recordings at: http://www.soundmann.com.

Offline morst

  • Trade Unionist
  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 5088
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #106 on: April 08, 2022, 03:20:20 AM »
[Edited to add that I'm listening to the sample right now - nice! - but I felt the need to lift the upper frequencies somewhat, as the cymbal sound in particular sounded a bit veiled to me.  But I'm listening with 73 year old ears... yesterday they were only 72 years old... sigh!]
Happy belated birthday from San Francisco! :-)

Offline Ozpeter

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1270
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #107 on: April 08, 2022, 11:25:59 AM »
Quote
Happy belated birthday from San Francisco! :-)

Thanks.... SF... I haven't been back there since 1968... those were the days.  Somewhere I have a reel-to-reel recording of an interview I did with a hippie drug addict there (charming young lady actually) but heaven knows where I've put it!

Offline voltronic

  • Trade Count: (34)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3493
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #108 on: April 08, 2022, 12:35:46 PM »
I think the best way to fix this hold/record switch issue is through a firmware update that does the following:

1. REC/HOLD switch only starts recording. Engaging it again after rolling only add markers (or does nothing at all).
2. To stop recording, the HOLD must be disengaged, and then you must do a 2-second press on the STOP button.


These changes would compensate for the relatively low disengaging force of the hold switch, move the stop function to another switch entirely, and prevent accidental stops.


Once, again, they had all of this figured out quite well on the F6: REC just records. STOP stops. The hold function is engaged by a 2-second press on the headphone volume control. They could have done all of that exactly the same on the F3 and saved some money by having a simple button instead of a two-position slider.
DPA 4061 ~ Line Audio CM3 ~ Naiant X-Q ~ AT 853  |  Naiant PFAs ~ Shure FP24  |  Zoom F6 ~ Sony PCM-M10
MOTU M2 ~ KRK Rokit RP5 ~ Sennheiser HD 650 ~ Etymotic ER4XR

Team Line Audio

Offline gaijin

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 34
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #109 on: April 08, 2022, 11:24:43 PM »
Second outing report:

Gaffer's taped the switch in the lock position this time - not going to be fooled again!

This time it was Joey DeFrancesco @ Berk's Jazz Fest using Line Audio CM4 (48v) from FOB, DFC ~Wide ORTF mounted to a stationary  >:D "object" direct into the F3 @ 32, 48.  1.5 hour show still left me with about half battery using 2 Eneloop Pros - the battery life on this is also turning out to be more than sufficient which is very nice.

Size of device was once again its best asset - was not at all of interest during bag search.  :)

Seems more weighted toward "warm" this time, but I still have the impression that similar outings with the SDs just sound better out of the device.  With that said I'm sure I could EQ to taste for a nearly identical result.  Don't hear anything fundamentally wrong with the file.  Perhaps I've just had too much of the SD Kool-aid at this point.  I have a couple pairs of these mics so the next chance I get I'd like to compare the 2 recorders with identical mic setup to see if there's something there or it's all in my head.

Sample track available here for a week: https://we.tl/t-dfMx2s8DUP

Offline morst

  • Trade Unionist
  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 5088
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #110 on: April 09, 2022, 02:43:02 AM »
Sample track available here for a week
I like it, but when the synth player plays, it drowns out Joey's B3.

Offline gaijin

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 34
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #111 on: April 16, 2022, 12:08:29 PM »
3rd outing:

The F3 is continuing to be a winner.  The gaff tape, while not ideal, is proving to be effective in avoiding erroneous stops.  Battery life continues to be great with the Eneloop Pros - I am never below 50% by the end of a ~ 1.5 hour set @ 32/48 w/ 48v phantom on.  Bag checks don't even see the Hermitshell case I have the F3 in opened up - it is small enough that it is entirely disregarded by security so far - obviously that will vary by venue.  I'm going to do a Herbie show soonish - he tends to have much tighter screening from experience, so it will likely get its real test then.

In terms of ease of stealth operation, it really doesn't get any simpler.  I am eyeballing levels based on house music before hitting record and dumping it till the end of show - not checking anything but an occasional glance at the red recording light (out of paranoia from the past lost recording on the first outing).  Results have been great so far and the 32-bit would make even significantly botched levels a non-issue.

This time there was far too much bass so I've done some minor post to the samples as it was not listenable as it was. Still too much cymbal/hh "crashiness" going on for my taste so I did minor subtractive EQ on that as well.

All things considered, after 3 outings with different types of venues / different mic setups / etc I am giving this one a big thumbs up.  As mentioned previously I am inclined to use the MixPre3-ii whenever there is no concern for security rummaging through the bag, based on my subjective assessment that it just sounds "better" raw from device, but when stealth is a factor I no longer feel like I am sacrificing as much as I did with the stealth oriented Sony A10, D50, D1, M10 / Sony XLR-1 /  Battery Box setups I was using previously.

Recorded directly behind soundboard using a slightly narrow (practical stealth issues) NOS on stealth "object" peeking over the rail ~ 6ft high (very low "balcony") @ DFC, FOB with Line Audio CM4 > F3. 

Artist: Keiko Matsui
Venue: Bethesda Blues and Jazz Club, Bethesda, MD.

Sample 1:
https://we.tl/t-Nc0HP9SPXl

Sample 2:
https://we.tl/t-kxPahRPcVZ

Offline detroit lightning

  • Trade Count: (8)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 686
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #112 on: April 16, 2022, 05:44:45 PM »
3rd outing:

The F3 is continuing to be a winner.  The gaff tape, while not ideal, is proving to be effective in avoiding erroneous stops.  Battery life continues to be great with the Eneloop Pros - I am never below 50% by the end of a ~ 1.5 hour set @ 32/48 w/ 48v phantom on.  Bag checks don't even see the Hermitshell case I have the F3 in opened up - it is small enough that it is entirely disregarded by security so far - obviously that will vary by venue.  I'm going to do a Herbie show soonish - he tends to have much tighter screening from experience, so it will likely get its real test then.

In terms of ease of stealth operation, it really doesn't get any simpler.  I am eyeballing levels based on house music before hitting record and dumping it till the end of show - not checking anything but an occasional glance at the red recording light (out of paranoia from the past lost recording on the first outing).  Results have been great so far and the 32-bit would make even significantly botched levels a non-issue.

This time there was far too much bass so I've done some minor post to the samples as it was not listenable as it was. Still too much cymbal/hh "crashiness" going on for my taste so I did minor subtractive EQ on that as well.

All things considered, after 3 outings with different types of venues / different mic setups / etc I am giving this one a big thumbs up.  As mentioned previously I am inclined to use the MixPre3-ii whenever there is no concern for security rummaging through the bag, based on my subjective assessment that it just sounds "better" raw from device, but when stealth is a factor I no longer feel like I am sacrificing as much as I did with the stealth oriented Sony A10, D50, D1, M10 / Sony XLR-1 /  Battery Box setups I was using previously.

Recorded directly behind soundboard using a slightly narrow (practical stealth issues) NOS on stealth "object" peeking over the rail ~ 6ft high (very low "balcony") @ DFC, FOB with Line Audio CM4 > F3. 

Artist: Keiko Matsui
Venue: Bethesda Blues and Jazz Club, Bethesda, MD.

Sample 1:
https://we.tl/t-Nc0HP9SPXl

Sample 2:
https://we.tl/t-kxPahRPcVZ

Excellent write up! Definitely see the potential for one of these…

Offline mcfoster

  • Trade Count: (4)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 216
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #113 on: April 16, 2022, 09:01:05 PM »
I love my F6. I want one of these too! It's like secret weapon.
Recording:
AKG CK1X,2X,3X,8X>Modded MK46's>PFA's>Zoom H6
Sennheiser MK2E gopro elements> DR-05
Playback:
Peachtree Nova>Inspire Auidio SET EL84 tube amp>?Klipsch Crites Quartets, RF-7,JBL 4312

Offline detroit lightning

  • Trade Count: (8)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 686
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #114 on: May 03, 2022, 08:48:28 PM »
Ordered one…

Offline Ozpeter

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1270
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #115 on: May 05, 2022, 09:21:36 AM »
End user report is eagerly awaited!  I hope you get delivery soon.

Offline detroit lightning

  • Trade Count: (8)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 686
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #116 on: May 05, 2022, 01:23:40 PM »
Couple of questions

-Anyone use the bluetooth adapter/app? Based on the issues with the recording slide, seems like gaff-taping that in place and using the app to control makes some sense?

-Thoughts/ideas on mounting it? It primarily won't be a  >:D tool for me, and I'm thinking I'd like to just mount it right to the stand. Could probably use those bars and tape it, but some sort of clamp option would be nice too.

-Has anyone tested it using AA batteries, plus an external pack? Curious if it's a seamless transition if the external pack dies (my understanding is that it defaults to external power first). I'd like to use a smallish usb battery with it if possible.

Should be getting it Friday, probably running it for a festival in a few weeks!

Offline DavidPuddy

  • Trade Count: (15)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1386
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #117 on: May 05, 2022, 01:48:21 PM »
Couple of questions

-Thoughts/ideas on mounting it? It primarily won't be a  >:D tool for me, and I'm thinking I'd like to just mount it right to the stand. Could probably use those bars and tape it, but some sort of clamp option would be nice too.


https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1422139-REG/smallrig_2164_multi_functional_crab_shaped_clamp.html

I use this for my A10, should work nicely with the F3.

Offline mcfoster

  • Trade Count: (4)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 216
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #118 on: May 05, 2022, 01:54:35 PM »
I like that clamp a lot, and the price is great too.
Recording:
AKG CK1X,2X,3X,8X>Modded MK46's>PFA's>Zoom H6
Sennheiser MK2E gopro elements> DR-05
Playback:
Peachtree Nova>Inspire Auidio SET EL84 tube amp>?Klipsch Crites Quartets, RF-7,JBL 4312

Offline detroit lightning

  • Trade Count: (8)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 686
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #119 on: May 05, 2022, 02:05:31 PM »
Couple of questions

-Thoughts/ideas on mounting it? It primarily won't be a  >:D tool for me, and I'm thinking I'd like to just mount it right to the stand. Could probably use those bars and tape it, but some sort of clamp option would be nice too.


https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1422139-REG/smallrig_2164_multi_functional_crab_shaped_clamp.html

I use this for my A10, should work nicely with the F3.

Perfect - exactly what I'm looking for! Thanks!

Offline WiFiJeff

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 933
  • Gender: Male
  • I tape therefore I am.
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #120 on: May 06, 2022, 02:17:56 AM »
Okay, I am now a convert to 32 bit floating.  Preliminary impressions, not strict comparisons or measurements. 

I had used both a mixpre 6 II and a Zoom F6 for recording chamber concerts before Covid.  Since I could always set levels and get enough gain from those pre-amps I didn't really find too much of an advantage from recording 32 bit v. 24 bit on these recorders or v. 24 bits on the F8n.  I could always add 8-10 dB in post without much impact on the final product, and set levels conservatively. 

But I also use an MMA-A plus iPhone with Metarecorder, a major drawback of this setup in some cases was the limitation of the MMA-A to 30 dB gain.  With DPA 4060 mics this has never been a problem, but I also use the DPA supercardioid 4081s (with a bass boost in post) for some things, and these mics are less sensitive.  For most louder things, a boost in post of 8-12 dB would be sufficient and did not spoil things; but very quiet programs like harpsichords or viols from a distance in a large hall begged for 20-30 dB additional boost in post, and that was generally ugly.  I eased into feeding the iPhone from a Sonosax SX-M2D2, but using only a cautious 35-40 dB of gain the needed boost in post still didn't sound good.  Since the Sonosax is a fantastic preamp A/D, I was disappointed that the necessary gain in post was still problematic.  Last week I got the settings right, a total of 57 dB (20 "pre-gain" + 37) got very nice results.  So today I went with a Zoom F3 alone, DPA4081s and DAD6001s to use the F3 phantom power to run the mics.  The resulting 32 bit file was a distinct improvement, seems almost as good as the M2D2 with levels set correctly.  YMMV, but I'm impressed with the Zoom implementation of 32 bit and look forward to the format in even slimmer machines than the F3.

Now these comparisons are only impressionistic, different groups played, different repertory.  But it's in the same space and I'm in the same seat.  I've had some intermittent issues with Metarecorder lately, including a complete loss tonight (I think it's a stability issue with newer iOs upgrades, happens with different MMA-A units and mics and went away with deleting and reloading Metarecorder).  So I hope to try the F3 at other places, also with 4060 mics.

Jeff

Offline voltronic

  • Trade Count: (34)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3493
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #121 on: May 06, 2022, 06:15:53 AM »
Jeff - Thanks for your detailed report. I was particularly impressed to hear you say that your results with the F3 were close to those using the M2D2, which is considered an elite-class pre/ADC. You should share that with some of the people on the GS Remote forum who think Zoom products can never produce pro-level recordings.
DPA 4061 ~ Line Audio CM3 ~ Naiant X-Q ~ AT 853  |  Naiant PFAs ~ Shure FP24  |  Zoom F6 ~ Sony PCM-M10
MOTU M2 ~ KRK Rokit RP5 ~ Sennheiser HD 650 ~ Etymotic ER4XR

Team Line Audio

Offline WiFiJeff

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 933
  • Gender: Male
  • I tape therefore I am.
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #122 on: May 06, 2022, 10:46:30 AM »
results with the F3 were close to those using the M2D2, which is considered an elite-class pre/ADC.

Only with respect to what is a somewhat distant recording (15-20 feet) in a non-ideal space.  In a more ideal setting, the M2D2 blows away most competition.  What I think I found is that where I need 50-60 dB of gain the F3 is better than anything that will only give me 30 dB.  But even saying this on GS will have Plush dumping on me, whether he's heard an F3 or not.

Offline Ozpeter

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1270
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #123 on: May 06, 2022, 11:38:54 AM »
So Plush is still at it?  As I recall it he was significantly the reason why I gave up posting there.  Commonsense views just didn't seem to be respected there.  Well, that's insulting the other members, but you know what I mean, probably...

Some years ago I worked in classical music live recording and broadcasting.  The radio station moved to new premises, and a small studio was built, big enough for a baby grand and a string quartet, for instance.  In the main control room, there were some exotic preamps installed, I honestly forget the maker.  Anyway, due to circumstances which I also now cannot recall, we had to route the audio from those preamps via a humble 4 channel Behringer mixer.  It was not uncommon to hear people gush on about the amazing sound from the upmarket preamps.  It there was a strict rule that nobody was told about the downstream Behringer mixer, which was hidden in some cabinetry. 

Now I'm not saying that there's no point in using top flight preamps etc etc.  I'm just saying that meaningful comparisons can be difficult to make once you get to a certain level.  Still, as a rule of thumb when selecting (say) a new pair of speakers in a hifi shop, first ask to hear your test material on whatever speakers they have on demo which cost the most.  (This has the effect of getting the salesperson's attention also...).  Then compare with the rather cheaper pairs that you were actually thinking of.  Having a point of reference at the time of listening is vital.  Otherwise, things can get very, very subjective.

So.  What were we actually talking about?

Offline detroit lightning

  • Trade Count: (8)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 686
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #124 on: May 12, 2022, 04:06:50 PM »
Picked up the BTA-1 Bluetooth adapter for the F3, just messed around with it a bit, but seems real nice. Very straightforward and easy. Will report back on the range...

Edit: also, just can't say enough about the size of this thing (not the greatest pic, but you get the idea). Worked up a mount for it + the iphone i use for DPA recording. Very stoked about this setup to run 2 sources!

« Last Edit: May 12, 2022, 05:02:37 PM by detroit lightning »

Offline prepschoolalumniblues

  • Trade Count: (5)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 118
  • Scents and subtle sounds
    • Phish.net Profile
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #125 on: May 13, 2022, 08:45:44 AM »
Picked up the BTA-1 Bluetooth adapter for the F3, just messed around with it a bit, but seems real nice. Very straightforward and easy. Will report back on the range...

Edit: also, just can't say enough about the size of this thing (not the greatest pic, but you get the idea). Worked up a mount for it + the iphone i use for DPA recording. Very stoked about this setup to run 2 sources!

What did you use for the mounts here? Looks great!!
Oktava MK-012 > Marantz PMD661 (Oade Warm Plus Mod)
AT853 > Marantz PMD620MKII (Oade Concert Mod)

Offline detroit lightning

  • Trade Count: (8)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 686
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #126 on: May 13, 2022, 08:53:46 AM »
Picked up the BTA-1 Bluetooth adapter for the F3, just messed around with it a bit, but seems real nice. Very straightforward and easy. Will report back on the range...

Edit: also, just can't say enough about the size of this thing (not the greatest pic, but you get the idea). Worked up a mount for it + the iphone i use for DPA recording. Very stoked about this setup to run 2 sources!

What did you use for the mounts here? Looks great!!

Thanks!

Phone mount: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01M7RE39O/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Zoom mount: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/831804-REG/Impact_me_100_Atom_Clamp_with_Ratchet.html

I had the impact clamp already, and just found a spigot that fit the Zoom. Could probably improve that one a bit, but it's solid as-is.

Offline detroit lightning

  • Trade Count: (8)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 686
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #127 on: May 13, 2022, 09:29:34 AM »
Running a battery life test and messing around with this for the first time. I'm running Berliner CM33 mics directly in via XLR - a bit confused by the setting options. For each input you can choose:

Line in
Line in +24v
Line in +48v
Mic In
Mic In +24v
Mic In +48v

Since I'm not running through a battery or pre-amp, I do need phantom power. I assume mic in +48v is what I need?

Been a while since I've had to think about this question...thanks!

Also, in terms of magnification, what has everyone been using?

Offline voltronic

  • Trade Count: (34)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3493
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #128 on: May 14, 2022, 08:13:11 AM »
Running a battery life test and messing around with this for the first time. I'm running Berliner CM33 mics directly in via XLR - a bit confused by the setting options. For each input you can choose:

Line in
Line in +24v
Line in +48v
Mic In
Mic In +24v
Mic In +48v

Since I'm not running through a battery or pre-amp, I do need phantom power. I assume mic in +48v is what I need?

Been a while since I've had to think about this question...thanks!

Also, in terms of magnification, what has everyone been using?

Yes, mic in +48. Line in with +24 or +48 V phantom is used when you have mics with a super high output level.

I have an F6; not and F3 but I think the magnification/level doesn't matter. Just adjust in post.
DPA 4061 ~ Line Audio CM3 ~ Naiant X-Q ~ AT 853  |  Naiant PFAs ~ Shure FP24  |  Zoom F6 ~ Sony PCM-M10
MOTU M2 ~ KRK Rokit RP5 ~ Sennheiser HD 650 ~ Etymotic ER4XR

Team Line Audio

Offline ts

  • Trade Count: (71)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3436
  • Gender: Male
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #129 on: May 14, 2022, 09:42:10 AM »
So I'm trying to wrap my head around the magnification/level function. Is it there to make the user think they have some sort of gain control, but it has no effect on the end result?
Beyerdynamic CK930>Sound Devices MixPre 6

Offline gaijin

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 34
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #130 on: May 15, 2022, 01:01:00 AM »
So I'm trying to wrap my head around the magnification/level function. Is it there to make the user think they have some sort of gain control, but it has no effect on the end result?

It has an effect on the end result only when it is set before the recording is started.  Adjusting after recording has started has no effect on the final WAV.

Offline Ozpeter

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1270
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #131 on: May 15, 2022, 08:43:08 AM »
I think the strategy with the magnification level is to use it chiefly to ensure that when incoming levels are low, you still can see that all is well (that you are actually getting a signal) from the movement of the display.  It's likely then to appear to clip at high incoming levels, but that is fixable in post production.  The digital level is set by the magnification value existing when the recording starts.  You can then change it, but that won't affect the original value being applied to the recording (which of course would be counter productive).  What it will do is to affect the monitoring level in headphones.  So don't raise the magnification level radically if the existing level in your headphones is loud enough - mind your hearing!  If you do want to raise the magnification level significantly during recording, first reduce the headphone level a fair bit, and readjust it after changing the magnification level.

Note that I don't actually have one... but I think my advice is correct.

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (15)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 14621
  • Gender: Male
  • "and the rowers keep on rowing!"
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #132 on: May 16, 2022, 09:45:32 AM »
I don't have one either.. and believe your understanding to be correct.

One qualification on this part-
Quote
It's likely then to appear to clip at high incoming levels, but that is fixable in post production.

This is true for for low input levels as discussed. It's also true for higher input levels as long as the input is not so hot as to clip or otherwise overdrive the analog input stage of the recorder ahead of it's 32-bit float ADC stage -- hence the provision of both mic and line input sensitivities. 
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Duncan

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 132
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #133 on: May 16, 2022, 04:47:05 PM »
Can anyone tell me how these would show up on metal detector wands and walkthroughs?
Also interested about the same with mixpre
Cheers
Duncan
Recording for 39 years and counting, down not up
Schoeps CCM5--SD722
DPA 4061--SD722
AKG CK 61-ULS--Naiant Actives--SD722
DPA 4061 - DPA d:VICE - iPhone 6s+
MixPre6 with some mics

Offline waltmon

  • Trade Count: (14)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2032
  • Gender: Male
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #134 on: May 18, 2022, 12:30:56 PM »
Its metal...it will show up
KM140's, KM150's, U89's, Mixpre-10T II, Mixpre-6 (1st gen), 788T

CA-14 > UBB > Tascam DR-2D

1 pound non-sequential $50.00 bills

Offline lsd2525

  • Trade Count: (18)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3212
  • Gender: Male
  • Eschew obfuscation
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #135 on: May 18, 2022, 01:36:28 PM »
Can anyone tell me how these would show up on metal detector wands and walkthroughs?
Also interested about the same with mixpre
Cheers
Duncan

Tell 'em it a Rubik cube
Mics: SKM184's; ADK A51s; AT4041; Line CM3; Superlux S502; CK91 active w/homebrew BB; AT853; Naiant X-X; Nak 300's
Recorders: M10; DR-60D; DR-701D

Offline Ozpeter

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1270
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #136 on: May 20, 2022, 06:36:33 AM »
"It's my cigarette case.  Very small cigarettes are much better for my health."

Offline eman

  • Trade Count: (5)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3091
  • Gender: Male
  • Return of the Shredi
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #137 on: May 20, 2022, 10:13:48 PM »
I just got mine today. Some thoughts: the battery indicator does not always show up. Not sure why this is. You can power it through the USB-C, and this did work plugging it into an AC adapter. I had the thing running on some Powerex fully charged AAs for a few hours (didn't time it but I was working for several hours, it was running at 48V phantom). So certainly you'd want a box of AAs in a festival setting or an external battery pack.
I was hoping it would be a better stealth unit. The heavy metal frame seems to be possibly removable, and would leave you with a VERY small and VERY light unit that would be pretty much the be all and end all of all in tiny phantom/pre/recorder units. I did try removing the two long mount screws to see if the metal part would slide off (it looks like it would and should), but it didn't, at least with an amount of force I'd be comfortable with on a brand new piece of gear. There may be more screws under the mounts for the belt loop attachments but again, not comfortable prying these off either. A search of Youtube and Google didn't turn anything up but hopefully someone will work out how we can set this metal frame aside for stealth missions.
I see in the review someone posted that the external bluetooth app would definitely be something you want to augment the tiny and bare bones display on this.

Edit: I got a little farther with disassembly without completely screwing it up, there are also 2 small screws under the battery, and the mic input screws need to be removed. At that point you need to slide the back cover past one of the battery compartment springs which isn't easy, then there also seems to be some stuff connected inside that back panel that will be connected by folded cable bundles. Perhaps the next step would be getting that back panel off, then there would be mount screws to ditch the metal part of the chassis. My dad used to hate it when I took apart his stereo, and I haven't learned too much since then.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2022, 04:35:11 PM by eman »
Theologically speaking, the two parties have divided the Seven Deadly Sins as follows: Republicans oppose lust, sloth and envy; Democrats scorn gluttony, greed, wrath and pride. Little progress is reported. -Gene Lyons

Offline dallman

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (30)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • *
  • Posts: 1758
  • Gender: Male
    • Clifford Morse
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #138 on: May 21, 2022, 12:15:10 PM »
I just got mine today. Some thoughts: the battery indicator does not always show up. Not sure why this is. You can power it through the USB-C, and this did work plugging it into an AC adapter. I had the thing running on some Powerex fully charged AAs for a few hours (didn't time it but I was working for several hours, it was running at 48V phantom). So certainly you'd want a box of AAs in a festival setting or an external battery pack.
I was hoping it would be a better stealth unit. The heavy metal frame seems to be possibly removable, and would leave you with a VERY small and VERY light unit that would be pretty much the be all and end all of all in tiny phantom/pre/recorder units. I did try removing the two long mount screws to see if the metal part would slide off (it looks like it would and should), but it didn't, at least with an amount of force I'd be comfortable with on a brand new piece of gear. There may be more screws under the mounts for the belt loop attachments but again, not comfortable prying these off either. A search of Youtube and Google didn't turn anything up but hopefully someone will work out how we can set this metal frame aside for stealth missions.
I see in the review someone posted that the external bluetooth app would definitely be something you want to augment the tiny and bare bones display on this.
I have the Bluetooth adapter but find no need for it. I am very familiar with 32bit recording having had the F6 and mixpre6II for some years now. The difference in concept is slow to be understood, but recording with these decks is not at all like 24bit or any other deck. I am sure people will disagree or not understand, but that is okay, I record a fair amount and am happy with what i have discovered.
On the F3 in particular, part of the reason for the wave settings showing versus meters is that there is no need for meters and really no need for a screen audio-wise. The concept that is most misunderstood is that you do not set the gain. It is pre-set by the machine and therefore meters are not relevant. This is a true set and forget deck. You do set the faders, or the output, and that is how loud or low your volume will be when you apply to post. But it is just the output volume, the faders, not the gain. So you can change your recording in post if too low or too loud and there is no loss of quality, no difference because it is just output (volume). Input (gain) was set by the deck.
I have come to realize this deck in particular is not like anything else. It is a game changer in approach to recording and especially great where there are unknowns at the start of a show, because it does not matter.
So for the first time when I use this deck, I shut the lighting on the screen off, hit record and am done. The recordings are stellar in terms of the deck. It is still up to me for placement etc., but the deck is flawless and requires no adjusting. I found the bluetooth part unnecessary.
I will say this. If you do not do any post work on your recordings, if you just somehow listen without using a post application, then this is the wrong deck for you. Then you will need to figure out the faders and volume (not the gain as you have no ability to adjust), so you may as well use a different deck, the advantages of this deck are largely nullified.
Support Live Music: Tape A Show Today!
Deck>possibly something here> Mics

Offline dactylus

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (57)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *
  • Posts: 5831
  • Gender: Male
  • Maplewood, MN
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #139 on: May 22, 2022, 08:20:06 AM »

dallman,

Looking forward to checking out your F3 the next time that I see you!  Thanks for posting.

David
hot licks > microphones > recorder



...ball of confusion, that's what the world is today, hey hey...

Offline detroit lightning

  • Trade Count: (8)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 686
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #140 on: May 26, 2022, 09:18:18 AM »
Listening to my first pulls with the F3 from a festival from last weekend. A few thoughts:

-So far, I like what I hear in terms of sound. I've been running a Oade modified R44 in recent years, and by no means have I done any direct comparisons, but thus far I don't hear any thing that I don't like with the F3

-The bluetooth function using the phone is nice, but I don't like that if it gets disconnected it just cuts it off with (seemingly?) no way to reconnect. So if you walk too far away for whatever reason, just know that you won't be able to monitor things on your phone again without reconnecting on the device. Maybe no way around this, dunno.

-All of the recording was done at an outside festival, mics probably 80-100' back? Folk / Rock music, but the things basically peaked at around -12db, so didn't really get to run things especially hot. But nonetheless, happy with how things turned out.

-Have it rigged so I can clamp the device + a power source direct to the stand, and really loved not having my gear on the ground.

Offline mepaca

  • Trade Count: (10)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 233
  • taperssection member
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #141 on: May 26, 2022, 01:59:29 PM »
It might be in here somewhere but does anyone know if the f3 has m/s decoding?

Offline Ozpeter

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1270
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #142 on: May 26, 2022, 08:21:45 PM »
No M/S decoding and monitoring.  Dealbreaker for me, and a strange omission given the apparent target audience.  And not hard to do.

Offline Clem Cheesy

  • C'era Una Volta...
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 14508
  • Gender: Male
  • Waiting for the next cladogenetic event, or Godot
    • Oceana North America
Re: Zoom F3
« Reply #143 on: Yesterday at 06:08:22 PM »
The Ron Popeil recorder, set it & forget it... 32 bit, auto levels, stereo with P48s.
I definitely see one in my bag this year.
"Peace is for everyone"
        - Norah Jones

"Music is the drug that won't kill you"
         - Fran Lebowitz

 

RSS | Mobile
Page created in 0.399 seconds with 166 queries.
© 2002-2022 Taperssection.com
Powered by SMF