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Author Topic: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...  (Read 19611 times)

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Offline bmr

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Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« on: October 17, 2004, 04:51:40 AM »
From what I've been able to gather, and from the rigs I've seen from some recent shows I've collected, the two predominant mics used were Schoeps CCM4/Vs and the DPA 4021/2s..

In many months time, I guess I could afford the DPAs, but certainly not the Schoeps. I heard an incrediible source from AKGs, but from what I've been able to tell, they do not make mics suitable for steath projects (clubs/small halls). If I'm incorrect in this assumption, please let me know.

Is there a quality, popular option in the $500 range along the lines of the CCMs or DPAs? After doing some poking around on sonicsense.com it seems like there's the coresounds (and like items from soundprofessionals.com) in the $250 range, then a jump up to ~$1000 for the DPAs, with the CCMs coming in around $2600 for a pair.

Also, I mentioned this in another thread, but....

If I were to go with something like the DPAs, could I conceivably run them into a pre, then into a JB3 and do this all stealthily? Or is that too much equipment to deal with when I have to stand amongst a crowd?

Offline leegeddy

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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2004, 05:00:17 AM »
>>In many months time, I guess I could afford the DPAs, but certainly not the Schoeps

i don't know where you got the price for the DPA 4021/22, but they are around +/-$3k per pair new.

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Offline caymanreview

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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2004, 05:54:45 AM »
just a touch over 3K i believe ;) like 16 or 1650 each

im thinking the prices he said when referring to the dpa's might have been the 4060 series mics

Offline johnw

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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2004, 10:42:49 AM »
If I were you, I'd look into the Audix 1290c>MP2>JB3 option. If you were willing to sacrifice some low end to cut the length of the mics from 90mm down to 45mm, you could try the Audix 1245s. The 4021s are 31mm long. I believe plucks tried out the 1245s, so you might ask for a copy of the recording from him. You could get a pair of either 1245s or 1290s for around $550. The combo I suggested is very stealthable (more so if you went M1 instead of JB3) and could be run inside a had or on a stand. The MP2 would give you phantom power in a small size and can be found for <$500. The audix mics are definitely supposed to be colored though, so keep that in mind.

Edit: Another option might be some of the hanging mics from AKG or Audix like the Adx-40
« Last Edit: October 17, 2004, 10:49:54 AM by johnw »
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Offline Nick Graham

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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2004, 04:28:15 PM »
After doing some poking around on sonicsense.com it seems like there's the coresounds (and like items from soundprofessionals.com) in the $250 range, then a jump up to ~$1000 for the DPAs, with the CCMs coming in around $2600 for a pair.

As other have pointed out the DPA 402x line is well over 3k a pair, but the mics you may have been looking at were DPA 4060 or 4061s. They are indeed right at around $1000 new, and are true stealth mics, the same size as the Core Sound and SP mics. The 4022s are "capsule" size mics, where as the 4060s are about the size of pencil erasers...

Hope that helps...
Right now nothing...in the past: Schoeps CMC6, AKG 480, AKG 460, AKG 414, MBHO 603a, Neumann KM100, ADK TL>Schoeps MK4, Schoeps MK2, Schoeps MK41, AKG ck61, AKG ck62, AKG ck63, Neumann AK40, Neumann AK50, MBHO ka200>Lunatec V2, Lunatec V3, Apogee Mini-Me, Oade M148, Oade M248, Sound Devices MP2, Sonosax SXM2>Sony (mod)SBM1, Apogee AD500>D7, D8, D100, M1, R1, R4, R09, iRiver HP120, Microtrack

Offline bmr

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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2004, 06:29:45 PM »
After doing some poking around on sonicsense.com it seems like there's the coresounds (and like items from soundprofessionals.com) in the $250 range, then a jump up to ~$1000 for the DPAs, with the CCMs coming in around $2600 for a pair.

As other have pointed out the DPA 402x line is well over 3k a pair, but the mics you may have been looking at were DPA 4060 or 4061s. They are indeed right at around $1000 new, and are true stealth mics, the same size as the Core Sound and SP mics. The 4022s are "capsule" size mics, where as the 4060s are about the size of pencil erasers...

Hope that helps...

Heh, that's what I get for browsing late at night on little sleep.

I know there's a lot of variables, but overall, are the Schoeps CCM or MK4s with actives recommended over the DPA 406X? I've certainly seen more mentions of the Schoeps, but I don't know if that's because of price or popularity or what.

I guess my next question is, can you run AKGs with active cables? Or do they not have that kind of setup like the Schoeps?

Offline caymanreview

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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2004, 06:30:36 PM »
the only way to get true actives would be to contact JKlabs about building you a custom preamp w/ actives for the akg's

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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2004, 06:30:52 PM »
for akg's i mean ;)

Offline johnw

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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2004, 07:39:02 PM »
for akg's i mean ;)

Yes but the bluelines and 460s do have extension cable options to seperate the capsule from the body  :P
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Offline bmr

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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2004, 08:23:29 PM »
for akg's i mean ;)

Yes but the bluelines and 460s do have extension cable options to seperate the capsule from the body  :P

Aren't the bluelines kinda the kid sister of the ULS? Or have I just said something that'll get me slapped?

Offline johnw

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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2004, 09:50:01 PM »
I wouldn't rule out the 300 series unless you've tried it already. The 460/480 series doesn't have nearly the capsule options available and the ck9x caps are probably the best design of any mic for easy changing and durability. They definitely sound different and the 300s are cheaper, but I wouldn't disregard them based on price. Neither mic+cable+cap is going to fall into a $500 budget btw. If you really want to have stealthy cardioid mics, the only thing I know of in that range is the audix. The DPA 406x is omni only. But then, if you are stealthing without a stand, you may want omnis anyway.
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Offline Nick Graham

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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2004, 10:26:30 PM »
Aren't the bluelines kinda the kid sister of the ULS? Or have I just said something that'll get me slapped?

Not really the "kid sister", but they are the lower end version of the 460/480 series. Excellent mics though nonetheless.

As for high end stealthier mics, you can't rule out the Neumann AKxx series. They're a bit cheaper than Schoeps and DPA...but even used will still run you anywhere from $1500 to $2000.
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Offline John Kelly

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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2004, 01:02:13 AM »
If I were you, I'd look into the Audix 1290c>MP2>JB3 option. If you were willing to sacrifice some low end to cut the length of the mics from 90mm down to 45mm, you could try the Audix 1245s. The 4021s are 31mm long. I believe plucks tried out the 1245s, so you might ask for a copy of the recording from him. You could get a pair of either 1245s or 1290s for around $550. The combo I suggested is very stealthable (more so if you went M1 instead of JB3) and could be run inside a had or on a stand. The MP2 would give you phantom power in a small size and can be found for <$500. The audix mics are definitely supposed to be colored though, so keep that in mind.

Edit: Another option might be some of the hanging mics from AKG or Audix like the Adx-40

What he said, minus the 1245 option.  The 1290s already cut out some bass, I wouldn't want any more taken away.  And I wouldn't call them colored at all.  I'd say they sound VERY similar to akg 480s, which I consider to be pretty transparent.

But yeah, you can't go wrong with the Audix Micros. ;D
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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2004, 08:31:36 AM »
I'd place in a vote for Audio Technica 853's.  I am continuously surprised with these mics...

Got mine new for $315 from fullcompass.com, and Spyder recently found new caps for them for $28

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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2004, 09:55:22 AM »
Anyone have any stories stelathing the 1290's? They are small but still a little bigger/longer than other stealth options.

Somewhere in the rig pics there's some pics of someone who set up a DIN config in a kangol hat... looks pretty awesome. 

I just saw these in person for the first time on Wednesday- they are definately stealthable.  IMO, you could easily clip those to glasses, hat, etc and still be incognito.

Tickets are dead to me.  Except the ones I have, don't have, and lost.  Not to mention the ones you have, don't have, and lost.   And the ones that other dude has, doesn't have, and lost.  Let me know if you need some tickets, I'm happy to oblige. 

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Offline John Kelly

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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2004, 11:15:25 AM »
Anyone have any stories stelathing the 1290's? They are small but still a little bigger/longer than other stealth options.

I've stealthed numerous times.  What kind of stories do you want to hear? :)
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Offline John Kelly

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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2004, 01:07:43 PM »
Anyone have any stories stelathing the 1290's? They are small but still a little bigger/longer than other stealth options.

I've stealthed numerous times.  What kind of stories do you want to hear? :)

The ones with a happy ending (not that kind of happy ending) and a sweet tape. :)

Just run them into a kangol? Did you shorten the cables? I read they come in 12' length. Did you stealth the V3 or was this before you got it?

I have only stealthed the V3 once, but it was a "team stealth" kind of thing.  The stealth tapes I've made with the 1290s were in a Kangol, into a MixPre and then a JB3.  I really didn't try any kind of configs in the hat, just threw 'em in and pressed record. ;)

Never been busted for stealthing, so I guess they're all happy endings. ;)
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Offline Rick

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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2004, 03:28:51 PM »
A cheaper Schoeps Alternative would be Schoeps MK4 > Nbox... About $2k if you can find a used pair of MK4s. That includes a pre-amp too.

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Offline jk labs

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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #18 on: October 18, 2004, 09:52:27 PM »

Aren't the bluelines kinda the kid sister of the ULS? Or have I just said something that'll get me slapped?

There are three significant differences between the ULS and the Blue Line that have relevancy to stealthing, especially if the choice stands between buying food or getting a mic set up. 

A) Unlike the ULS caps, the Blue Line capsules are electret
B) The Blue Line has sufficient performance in the integral active buffer to allow direct wiring ..
C) If one stares at a BL capsule for a while the bayonett connector sure starts to look like a cable exit port...

I.e all your really need are a pair of capsules, some 10 feet of strong starquadcable, a 9 Volts battery box and some epoxy. Now granted, the resale value might be slight :-)  but it's a rugged setup tolerant of both humidity and high sound pressure levels.

« Last Edit: October 18, 2004, 10:17:42 PM by jk labs »

Offline johnw

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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2004, 09:59:09 PM »
Not sure I understood all of that, but are you saying that someone with decent soldering skills could make this an affordable DIY stealth project?
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Offline jk labs

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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2004, 11:18:27 PM »
Not sure I understood all of that, but are you saying that someone with decent soldering skills could make this an affordable DIY stealth project?

It depends a little on your definition of "decent" I guess : -)

But AKG manages so it can't be impossible :)

Offline Sean Gallemore

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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2004, 04:36:05 AM »
I like my AT853s, but the mod460s own them in every respect aside from size and price.

Offline leegeddy

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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2004, 05:29:01 AM »
I like my AT853s, but the mod460s own them in every respect aside from size and price.

traitor!!!  ;D

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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2004, 05:41:40 AM »
Not sure I understood all of that, but are you saying that someone with decent soldering skills could make this an affordable DIY stealth project?

It depends a little on your definition of "decent" I guess : -)

But AKG manages so it can't be impossible :)

diy projects are the best...but i have a feeling that i'm not smart enuf to do that project.


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Offline Sean Gallemore

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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2004, 06:31:16 AM »
I like my AT853s, but the mod460s own them in every respect aside from size and price.

traitor!!!  ;D

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never!

I'm just saying ;)

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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #25 on: October 20, 2004, 09:12:14 AM »
I'm very happy with my (low-end) Sound Professional CMC2s, which are based around AT831 cardioid mics. They work very well recording high level bassy rock bands in small clubs, which accounts for 90% of my stealthing.

However, the upgrade bug is biting. I've read through this thread with interest, and have some questions:

Of the following:

Sound Pro SPCMC4s (based on AT853s). Standard or phantom?
Audia Technica 853s (not from Sound Professionals, RX model?) >MP2
Shoeps CCM (clips available??)
Core Sound stealthy cards

Forget budget right now - which would be best for me? I want a three box solution:

Mics > battery box or preamp > Nomad JB3

The Audix 1245s look too large for my normal use, which is clipped to my collar. The CCMs also look a little large for a non-hat application.

I would like to stay with Cards, or maybe hypers (so I'm eliminating DSMs, and 4060s), but am happy with the internal A>D of the JB3 for now. From reading this site the phantom AT853s are probably the ones to go for, but from where?
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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #26 on: October 20, 2004, 09:15:52 AM »
There are some in the yard sale right now... if you go new, the best price I found was fullcompass.com;  they gave them to me for $157 each, which RokPunk (I think he's a AT dealer) said is only a few bucks over cost...

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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #27 on: October 20, 2004, 09:18:35 AM »
Oh, and I wouldn't discount the micro's just yet- I saw them for the first time the other day (Speshul Ed's)- and the pics seem to be misleading to me.  In the pics, they look like they are blunt to me - more round than long, but they are more like the size of a cigarette.  I totally think you could clip those to a collar.
Tickets are dead to me.  Except the ones I have, don't have, and lost.  Not to mention the ones you have, don't have, and lost.   And the ones that other dude has, doesn't have, and lost.  Let me know if you need some tickets, I'm happy to oblige. 

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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #28 on: October 20, 2004, 09:27:36 AM »
they fit in the at's clips :D - might need a couple tho on each side, but they'd totally work.

i'd definitely go phantom cuz you can get higher spl's.  the 853's i think are really nice for the price.

schoeps ccm's don't have the extra body to worry about like the mk4s, but definitely can't be clipped easily.  you might have to rig something up in a diy project.  however, i'd say they probably sound the best out of the group of stealth mics...atleast until you match them with the dpa 4022's.  then its a whole nother story.


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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #29 on: October 20, 2004, 09:34:31 AM »
Hmm...still searching the net. The MP2 is discontinued, but looks a little large for stealthing. Is this the smallest option for a preamp?
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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #30 on: October 20, 2004, 09:36:35 AM »
AD-20, but you need a phantom supply too.  PS-2 or something...

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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #31 on: October 20, 2004, 09:48:45 AM »
+T for your suggestions, but (one of) my priorities is keeping it really small. SPCMC4>SP battery box would be ideal, but I've read on this board this can overload in loud bassy rock shows, not sure if this is 100% accurate...
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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #32 on: October 20, 2004, 10:05:39 AM »
Yeah, I hear that... the AD-20 is actually a bit larger than I was expecting, but its still stealthable.  I've never seen a PS-2 in person, do I don't know how much that would add.

I thought I just saw an MP-2 in the yard sale recently....


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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #33 on: October 20, 2004, 10:36:33 AM »
The MP2 is discontinued, but looks a little large for stealthing. Is this the smallest option for a preamp?

It's definitely stealthable, no sweat whatsoever.  If you can't stealth the MP2, you're doing something wrong!  :P

And if you can't find one, consider the SD MixPre or identical Shure FP-24.  Very similar to the MP2 and both manufacturered by SD.
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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #34 on: October 20, 2004, 10:58:21 AM »
Cool, will check out these two options a little later on..supposed to be working here ;)
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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #35 on: October 20, 2004, 11:01:38 AM »
Cool, will check out these two options a little later on..supposed to be working here ;)

aren't we all...  ;)
Tickets are dead to me.  Except the ones I have, don't have, and lost.  Not to mention the ones you have, don't have, and lost.   And the ones that other dude has, doesn't have, and lost.  Let me know if you need some tickets, I'm happy to oblige. 

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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #36 on: October 20, 2004, 11:10:00 AM »

However, the upgrade bug is biting. I've read through this thread with interest, and have some questions:

Of the following:

Shoeps CCM (clips available??)

Forget budget right now - which would be best for me? I want a three box solution:

Mics > battery box or preamp > Nomad JB3

The CCMs also look a little large for a non-hat application.


Are you talking about the Schoeps CCMs ? If so the price difference of those mics compared to the others is huge! Plus you would need a pre-amp. and you could not clip those on your collar.

Also I don't think you would want to clip cards on your collar, unless you can point them forward.

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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #37 on: October 20, 2004, 11:16:56 AM »

schoeps ccm's don't have the extra body to worry about like the mk4s,

Not necessarily. The MK4s can be run without the bodies. I know of two ways in fact that are not hard to find.  Both of which are cheaper then a pair of CCM4, infact much cheaper...
« Last Edit: October 20, 2004, 11:21:26 AM by Rick »
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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #38 on: October 20, 2004, 11:36:26 AM »
I do run cards on my shirt collar already, and it doesnt spoil my enjoyment of thr gig...!

Hmm...looking at the Sound Professionals site:

SPCMC4s $189
Phantom power adaptor kit (allows both phantom and battery box): $100
Denecke PS2 phantom power with mini-plug output: $239

Would this:
 
a) work (all the above would plug into a JB3)?
b) be a good idea, or should I go elsewhere?

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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #39 on: October 20, 2004, 11:52:10 AM »
Sorry I can't answer the question at hand, but I can tell you that I have seen numerous ps-2's used for anywhere from $75 - $100.
Tickets are dead to me.  Except the ones I have, don't have, and lost.  Not to mention the ones you have, don't have, and lost.   And the ones that other dude has, doesn't have, and lost.  Let me know if you need some tickets, I'm happy to oblige. 

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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #40 on: October 20, 2004, 11:56:20 AM »

schoeps ccm's don't have the extra body to worry about like the mk4s,

Not necessarily. The MK4s can be run without the bodies. I know of two ways in fact that are not hard to find.  Both of which are cheaper then a pair of CCM4, infact much cheaper...

sonosax and/or the nxbox.  am i right?  sorry, i wasn't thinking.


Because nothing says "I have lots of money and am sort of confused as to how to spend it" like Bose.

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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #41 on: October 20, 2004, 12:22:08 PM »
I do run cards on my shirt collar already, and it doesnt spoil my enjoyment of thr gig...!

Hmm...looking at the Sound Professionals site:

SPCMC4s $189
Phantom power adaptor kit (allows both phantom and battery box): $100
Denecke PS2 phantom power with mini-plug output: $239

Would this:
 
a) work (all the above would plug into a JB3)?
b) be a good idea, or should I go elsewhere?



Define the word "work"  ;D

Two things to bear in mind.

The AT mics with the SP batterybox runs out of steam at some 122 dB SPL (the capsule gives up). I am not sure at what SPL the sound become objectionable.
The levels are healthy: Sensitivity is -21 dB re 1V/1Pa (94 dB SPL). 

When you connect the mic in the "phantom mode" the level drops 20 dB (19 to be exact to -40 dB
 re 1V /Pa). But now the mics stay linear up to 135 dB SPL or so. But in this mode the powering
scheme necessary becomes a little involved and rather bulky.

Just someting to keep in mind when searching for that optimum solution ..

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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #42 on: October 20, 2004, 03:04:41 PM »

schoeps ccm's don't have the extra body to worry about like the mk4s,

Not necessarily. The MK4s can be run without the bodies. I know of two ways in fact that are not hard to find.  Both of which are cheaper then a pair of CCM4, infact much cheaper...

sonosax and/or the nxbox.  am i right?  sorry, i wasn't thinking.

Those were the two I was thinking about. I bet you could get a JK labs box too... Not mention the Schoeps VMS 5U. So there's at least 4 ways to do it.
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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #43 on: October 20, 2004, 03:25:15 PM »
conspicuously absent from this discussion is, IMO, the best mid-range stealth option available, the MBHO 603A's.
considerably less money ($1K new) than the schoeps or dpas, same stealth footprint.

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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #44 on: October 20, 2004, 03:30:32 PM »
conspicuously absent from this discussion is, IMO, the best mid-range stealth option available, the MBHO 603A's.
considerably less money ($1K new) than the schoeps or dpas, same stealth footprint.


I've heard some great MBHO 603a tapes but people don't seem to talk about these mics too much.

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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #45 on: October 20, 2004, 03:40:49 PM »
conspicuously absent from this discussion is, IMO, the best mid-range stealth option available, the MBHO 603A's.
considerably less money ($1K new) than the schoeps or dpas, same stealth footprint.


I've heard some great MBHO 603a tapes but people don't seem to talk about these mics too much.

I used them for a little bit. They are great mics for the price. They sound similar to Schoeps.

I think the KM184s, MG M300s and the AKG 480 sound better in that price range though. And I think if your going to spend that much money on a stealth setup, might as well save up for the high-end stuff like 4022, 140s, MK4/CCM4. That's what I should have done. It would have saved me some cash in the long run.

 
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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #46 on: October 20, 2004, 04:02:33 PM »
conspicuously absent from this discussion is, IMO, the best mid-range stealth option available, the MBHO 603A's.
considerably less money ($1K new) than the schoeps or dpas, same stealth footprint.


I'm not a huge fan of the MBHO sound.  I ran them for a few months and only managed a few tapes that I *really* liked with them.  I prefer less coloration, hence the v3 and the audix micros. ;)

But if you like some color in your mics, they're definitely a great option.
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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #47 on: October 20, 2004, 04:18:50 PM »
They [MBHO 603A] sound similar to Schoeps.

Interesting, I don't think they sound similar at all.  Different ears/brains/playback!  :)

And I think if your going to spend that much money on a stealth setup, might as well save up for the high-end stuff like 4022, 140s, MK4/CCM4. That's what I should have done. It would have saved me some cash in the long run.

Used Neumann KM140s aren't much more expensive than used MBHO 603As and I think sound quite a bit better / different.

conspicuously absent from this discussion is, IMO, the best mid-range stealth option available, the MBHO 603A's.
considerably less money ($1K new) than the schoeps or dpas, same stealth footprint.

Where can you get the 603As for $1k new?  If that's the case, the prices have dropped a LOT since I had my pair!  And I think the stealth footpring is considerably larger. As we've seen from discussion, plenty of options to run Schoeps without the long-ass mic bodies.  The KM140 mic bodies are about half the size of the 603As.  And the DPAs don't have a traditional mic body.  I found the extra mic body + kinda lengthy 5-pin mini-XLR connectors kinda bulky for stealth, though it could certainly be done without too much hassle if you're motivated.
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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #48 on: October 20, 2004, 04:24:21 PM »

And I think if your going to spend that much money on a stealth setup, might as well save up for the high-end stuff like 4022, 140s, MK4/CCM4. That's what I should have done. It would have saved me some cash in the long run.

Used Neumann KM140s aren't much more expensive than used MBHO 603As and I think sound quite a bit better / different.


A used set of 140s would be about $1400 right? and MBHO $1000 right? That's almost 50% more. I agree though, well worth the step up in price!
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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #49 on: October 20, 2004, 06:57:55 PM »
+T for your suggestions, but (one of) my priorities is keeping it really small. SPCMC4>SP battery box would be ideal, but I've read on this board this can overload in loud bassy rock shows, not sure if this is 100% accurate...

Ive got a pair of the AT933's from SP (they use the 853 capsules)  with the Card and Hyper caps and run off the basic 9v SP battery box. You can try them out if you wish; I've used them once in the past 2 years I think. I rarely use anything but the 4061's anymore.
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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #50 on: October 20, 2004, 09:13:06 PM »
+T for your suggestions, but (one of) my priorities is keeping it really small. SPCMC4>SP battery box would be ideal, but I've read on this board this can overload in loud bassy rock shows, not sure if this is 100% accurate...

Ive got a pair of the AT933's from SP (they use the 853 capsules)  with the Card and Hyper caps and run off the basic 9v SP battery box. You can try them out if you wish; I've used them once in the past 2 years I think. I rarely use anything but the 4061's anymore.

They're similar to the 853s, but they aren't the same.  You can check the frequency response graphs on at's website.  Unless of course you bought the adapter for the 933s to run the 853 capsules, but it kind of defeats the purpose of getting the 933s (their size)...
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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #51 on: October 21, 2004, 02:16:57 AM »
Boa, good to see you here! Thanks for the generous offer, will let you know.
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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #52 on: October 21, 2004, 08:37:40 AM »

Not necessarily. The MK4s can be run without the bodies. I know of two ways in fact that are not hard to find.  Both of which are cheaper then a pair of CCM4, infact much cheaper...

sonosax and/or the nxbox.  am i right?  sorry, i wasn't thinking.

Those were the two I was thinking about. I bet you could get a JK labs box too... Not mention the Schoeps VMS 5U. So there's at least 4 ways to do it.

"At least 4"? You have inside info? We've kept a low profile wrt Schoeps as other good options exist. 
But we do entertain custom needs. Most recently what possibly is the most compact hq interface/mic-pre
solution ever for the stock KCY. About the same size as five 9 volts batts packed densely side by side.
(It could be made even smaller but the need hasn't been there).
Rugged enough to park you car on top of (no I haven't tried).  No compromises in parts or sonics
(except the gain stage is IC based though). All essential controls + i/o on one end surface.

I'm not posting so as to generate lots of interest. But I'd like to know what features and properties etc
tapers are after that are not well met today?

« Last Edit: October 21, 2004, 08:45:10 AM by jk labs »

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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #53 on: October 21, 2004, 08:57:47 AM »
Most recently what possibly is the most compact hq interface/mic-pre
solution ever for the stock KCY. About the same size as five 9 volts batts packed densely side by side.
(It could be made even smaller but the need hasn't been there).
Rugged enough to park you car on top of (no I haven't tried).  No compromises in parts or sonics
(except the gain stage is IC based though). All essential controls + i/o on one end surface.

I'm not posting so as to generate lots of interest. But I'd like to know what features and properties etc
tapers are after that are not well met today?

Size and durability sound great.  I would want:

  • Built like a tank (sounds like it's covered above)
  • Support for KCY cable (sounds like it's covered above).
  • Continuously variable (not stepped) independent L/R gain, say 0 - 40 dB, or maybe two selectable tiers 0-20, 20-40.
  • Dual RCA or stereo mini output
  • Easily replaceable internal power source
Just a quick list off the top of my head, off to a meeting now.  Curious to see what other people say.
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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #54 on: October 21, 2004, 09:31:33 AM »
Most recently what possibly is the most compact hq interface/mic-pre
solution ever for the stock KCY. About the same size as five 9 volts batts packed densely side by side.
(It could be made even smaller but the need hasn't been there).
Rugged enough to park you car on top of (no I haven't tried).  No compromises in parts or sonics
(except the gain stage is IC based though). All essential controls + i/o on one end surface.

I'm not posting so as to generate lots of interest. But I'd like to know what features and properties etc
tapers are after that are not well met today?

Size and durability sound great.  I would want:

  • Built like a tank (sounds like it's covered above)
  • Support for KCY cable (sounds like it's covered above).
  • Continuously variable (not stepped) independent L/R gain, say 0 - 40 dB, or maybe two selectable tiers 0-20, 20-40.
  • Dual RCA or stereo mini output
  • Easily replaceable internal power source
Just a quick list off the top of my head, off to a meeting now.  Curious to see what other people say.

Thanks Brian!
 
Those points are noted.

The implementation of analog gain always poses a dillemma. A stepped gain control can be made to track l/r perfectly and last almost forever with "no" added noise.

With potentiometers quality means big physical size. Then there are conductive material issues.
Contact issues. Left right tracking issues. And a finite lifetime. But in light of a soundboard containing
hundreds of them two more must be ok?  :)   

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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #55 on: October 21, 2004, 10:19:03 AM »
The implementation of analog gain always poses a dillemma. A stepped gain control can be made to track l/r perfectly and last almost forever with "no" added noise.

Along those lines, it'd be nice to figure out a way to lock the gain controls. As it is now with the sax for instance, we have to tape the levels down and take it off and put it back on inconspicuously when we have to make adjustments. I also like the way the psp3 does it with one control for overall gain and another for l/r balance but not sure if that's a possibility.

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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #56 on: October 21, 2004, 10:34:17 AM »
Quote
There are three significant differences between the ULS and the Blue Line that have relevancy to stealthing, especially if the choice stands between buying food or getting a mic set up. 

A) Unlike the ULS caps, the Blue Line capsules are electret
B) The Blue Line has sufficient performance in the integral active buffer to allow direct wiring ..
C) If one stares at a BL capsule for a while the bayonett connector sure starts to look like a cable exit port...

I.e all your really need are a pair of capsules, some 10 feet of strong starquadcable, a 9 Volts battery box and some epoxy. Now granted, the resale value might be slight :-)  but it's a rugged setup tolerant of both humidity and high sound pressure levels.

hold the train!!!
it seems you are saying that you can make a set of steath cables for the Blue Line caps, but what about the bodies?
the extension cables I have seen for the 300 series still need the bodies in the line, so does this mean I could run the cables as stated above with a (v power supply right into a pre-amp?

this I might just try!
?>FR2LE

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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #57 on: October 21, 2004, 11:12:57 AM »

Not necessarily. The MK4s can be run without the bodies. I know of two ways in fact that are not hard to find.  Both of which are cheaper then a pair of CCM4, infact much cheaper...

sonosax and/or the nxbox.  am i right?  sorry, i wasn't thinking.

Those were the two I was thinking about. I bet you could get a JK labs box too... Not mention the Schoeps VMS 5U. So there's at least 4 ways to do it.

"At least 4"? You have inside info? We've kept a low profile wrt Schoeps as other good options exist. 
But we do entertain custom needs. Most recently what possibly is the most compact hq interface/mic-pre
solution ever for the stock KCY. About the same size as five 9 volts batts packed densely side by side.
(It could be made even smaller but the need hasn't been there).
Rugged enough to park you car on top of (no I haven't tried).  No compromises in parts or sonics
(except the gain stage is IC based though). All essential controls + i/o on one end surface.

I'm not posting so as to generate lots of interest. But I'd like to know what features and properties etc
tapers are after that are not well met today?



wow that sounds nice...

If I could design a Schoeps unit. purely for stealth/low-profile, mine would have

-Stock KCY in
-Mini Stereo XLR out and mini 1/8 out
-Stepped gain (2,4,8,12,16,24,32). Not Continuous, becuase the levels can bumped and you can control the levels on the deck anyways.
-Light. The plasic that they use for the Sonosax SX-M2 would be perfect.
-Small as possible.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2004, 11:33:57 AM by Rick »
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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #58 on: October 21, 2004, 02:26:47 PM »
as far as compact solutions for Schoeps goes, I have been pretty happy with my Nbox.
it's simple: input, output and on/off switch.
if a similar preamp could be made smaller and use less power it would be perfect.

if you start adding gain and other features to a similar device I think you are starting to move away from the purpose of the boxes.
I think they are intended for glitch free operation in less than ideal circumstances:
jammed into a pocket or fannypack where knobs and switches could easily be jostled.


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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #59 on: October 21, 2004, 03:28:28 PM »
as far as compact solutions for Schoeps goes, I have been pretty happy with my Nbox.
it's simple: input, output and on/off switch.
if a similar preamp could be made smaller and use less power it would be perfect.

if you start adding gain and other features to a similar device I think you are starting to move away from the purpose of the boxes.
I think they are intended for glitch free operation in less than ideal circumstances:
jammed into a pocket or fannypack where knobs and switches could easily be jostled.

If you had stepped gain, then jostled knbos/switches wouldn't be a problem. Plus when your not stealthing its nice to have a few more options. That's why I got the SX-M2/LS2. That and highs sound better

Someone can correct me, but I think the battery issue is a schoeps problem. The batteries in my SX-M2/LS2 need to be changed every show too.
Retired Taper


Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #60 on: October 21, 2004, 04:19:20 PM »
Rick, George - FWIW, I use the SX-M2/LS2 gain knobs for adjustment and find it very easy.  I have a small CD-style fanny pack in which it sits with the knobs facing up, and I can reach and adjust the knobs without looking at them while using my D100 remote to view the levels.  Works very well for me.  Reason I started doing it this way:  I suck at the (to me) super-sensitive D100 knob (see my APC recording from last April).

Robert - I haven't encounterd any situations where I'm not able to easily adjust my levels on the SX-M2/LS2 and have encountered glitch-free operation using the independent variable levels (aside from my self-inflicted battery troubles).  I think the extra functionality suits the box's - and my - purpose just fine.
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Offline Sean Gallemore

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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #61 on: October 21, 2004, 06:00:00 PM »
tape them knobs down

Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #62 on: October 21, 2004, 06:04:58 PM »
tape them knobs down

I do on the D100.  But gotta leave the SX-M2/LS2 knobs free so I can adjust levels!
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Offline Sean Gallemore

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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #63 on: October 22, 2004, 06:43:03 AM »
I was at a local extreme metal show last tuesday and had to tape in the pit against a column (only decent recording spot).

I was borrowing an SBM-1 and the owner said I shouldn't have to worry about taping down the level knob.  Thanx Sparge, thanx.

Offline jk labs

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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #64 on: October 22, 2004, 07:20:11 AM »
double posted. There is no "delete message" option ?
« Last Edit: October 22, 2004, 07:24:56 AM by jk labs »

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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #65 on: October 22, 2004, 07:22:22 AM »
The implementation of analog gain always poses a dillemma. A stepped gain control can be made to track l/r perfectly and last almost forever with "no" added noise.

Along those lines, it'd be nice to figure out a way to lock the gain controls. As it is now with the sax for instance, we have to tape the levels down and take it off and put it back on inconspicuously when we have to make adjustments. I also like the way the psp3 does it with one control for overall gain and another for l/r balance but not sure if that's a possibility.

That is an option. To do so dictates that you send the signal through two potentiometers.

It boils down to an issue of providing user friendly features vs the drawbacks said features have
on the performance (thats sounds like a bad patent application).

But these are the kind of challenges we all navigate every day, be it at the foodstore or in marriage.

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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #66 on: October 22, 2004, 08:22:54 AM »
Quote
There are three significant differences between the ULS and the Blue Line that have relevancy to stealthing, especially if the choice stands between buying food or getting a mic set up. 

A) Unlike the ULS caps, the Blue Line capsules are electret
B) The Blue Line has sufficient performance in the integral active buffer to allow direct wiring ..
C) If one stares at a BL capsule for a while the bayonett connector sure starts to look like a cable exit port...

I.e all your really need are a pair of capsules, some 10 feet of strong starquadcable, a 9 Volts battery box and some epoxy. Now granted, the resale value might be slight :-)  but it's a rugged setup tolerant of both humidity and high sound pressure levels.

hold the train!!!
it seems you are saying that you can make a set of steath cables for the Blue Line caps, but what about the bodies?
the extension cables I have seen for the 300 series still need the bodies in the line, so does this mean I could run the cables as stated above with a (v power supply right into a pre-amp?

this I might just try!

If you look at the CK91 and compare it to other modular caps (like CK61, M21, Mk4 or Nakamichi CP capsules...), you'll notice that the Blue Line capsule is mechanically very "complete": Solid body, vents and slots, fully enclosed rear and a rear exit port!  Mechanical challenges are often _the_ major obstacle in making active heads. With the CK91 on the other hand, most of the mechanical stuff is there already. The "tailpipe" even acts as exit port for the new cable and supports strain relief etc.

Some electronics work is required on the inside the CK91 and a cable must be permanently attached. Ooops there went the modular aspect out the window. Seen as a whole this modification is rather delicate but straighforward. It is _not_ easily reversed.

The cable added to the CK91 must be terminated in a connector or hardwired into a box. l


The alternative to all of the above is to get the AKG BL extension cable. It's a cable with connectors in both ends.   


What do you do at the mic body side?
Irrespective of if you run a "custom permanently attached cable solution" as above, or run the stock AKG BL extension cables, it is possible to remove the bodies. Their essential functions though must be replaced by some other device. Their "non-essential function we don't need (converting phantom power to 9 Volts, ++).

At a minimum a box containing a 6 to 9 Volts battery is needed. The savings so far in bulk and weight depend strongly on the connectors used but it is a way to get a fairly stealthy setup with just the capsules. Sonically there is no reason to think it is in any way inferior to running 300.

One can visualize putting more functionality inside the "CK9x batterybox". A quick search on the net for keywords "CK91" and "ECMS" will likely give some hits to a recording or two made with such a system.

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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #67 on: October 23, 2004, 11:59:09 AM »
Hi, sorry to bump this thread for my own needs!

Basically I'm a lot more confused than when I began on the upgrade path. I'm just your average taper looking for a more rounded sound and technical stuff goes over my head a lot of the time.

I've been corresponding with Jon of JK labs, and like his 'power plant' solution, which is, as I understand it, a battery box type unit with the benefits of phantom power, but in a smaller package (sorry if I got this wrong, Jon). What I am puzzled about is which mics will work best for my particular needs, which are stealthing loud bassy rock bands in small clubs to medium size venues. I'm not interested in an external A>D.

I've narrowed it down to the following:

1. Sound Professional SPCMC4s (AT853s) > JK Labs power plant > Nomad JB3
2. Audio Technica AT853s > JK Labs power plant > Nomad JB3
3. Sound Professional SPCMC8s (ES943s) > JK Labs power plant > Nomad JB3
4. Audio Technica ES943s > JK Labs power plant > Nomad JB3

In all cases Jon tells me when ordering, I have to ask specially for miniXLR (Tini-QG TA3F) terminations for the mics, so that I could use them with his power plant.

Look forward to any suggestions, and it would be great if Leegeddy reads this, as I believe he has tried both types of mics.

Thanks,

Alex
UK based taper: MK4>Nbox Platinum>PCM-M10
AT853C>CA9200 / PIPsqueak>Tascam DR-2D

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Offline Zaphod

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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #68 on: October 23, 2004, 01:27:13 PM »
Hi, sorry to bump this thread for my own needs!

Basically I'm a lot more confused than when I began on the upgrade path. I'm just your average taper looking for a more rounded sound and technical stuff goes over my head a lot of the time.

I've been corresponding with Jon of JK labs, and like his 'power plant' solution, which is, as I understand it, a battery box type unit with the benefits of phantom power, but in a smaller package (sorry if I got this wrong, Jon). What I am puzzled about is which mics will work best for my particular needs, which are stealthing loud bassy rock bands in small clubs to medium size venues. I'm not interested in an external A>D.

I've narrowed it down to the following:

1. Sound Professional SPCMC4s (AT853s) > JK Labs power plant > Nomad JB3
2. Audio Technica AT853s > JK Labs power plant > Nomad JB3
3. Sound Professional SPCMC8s (ES943s) > JK Labs power plant > Nomad JB3
4. Audio Technica ES943s > JK Labs power plant > Nomad JB3

In all cases Jon tells me when ordering, I have to ask specially for miniXLR (Tini-QG TA3F) terminations for the mics, so that I could use them with his power plant.

Look forward to any suggestions, and it would be great if Leegeddy reads this, as I believe he has tried both types of mics.

Thanks,

Alex

You really only have two of the four options mentioned above (AT853 or ATES943). If you want to run the AT mics with the JK labs box, you just need to have your AT mics terminated into mini XLRs. If you get the Soundpro versions they are just modified in their termination to a stereo male miniplug. In essence it doesn't really matter where you get the AT mics from so long as they have the miniXLRs on the ends.

Now I believe that Jon's box for powering the AT mics is to eliminate the need for phantom power adapters (Sanson PM4, AT8533) as well as provide the benefits of  phantom powering (not sure if it technically IS phantom powering.) I'm not sure if he has finalized the design, but he was wondering how to compromise the need or lack of need for a preamp (see http://www.taperssection.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=27801.0) I'm sure Jon can chime in with the technical aspects of it, but I hope this helps to clear any confusion.

EDIT: Got to thinking a bit. If you decided to go the route of JK labs for powering your mics, you should just get them from Soundprofessionals. It will probably the least expensive of the options, becasue the "real" AT mics (i.e. AT853rx) come with phantom power adapters, which you wouldn't be needing. Just get some miniXLRs to solder on yourself or see if Soundprofessionals could do it.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2004, 05:09:51 PM by Zaphod »
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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #69 on: October 25, 2004, 07:55:46 AM »

You really only have two of the four options mentioned above (AT853 or ATES943).


Here is a discussion on the differences including freq. response curves (cardioids I assume): http://www.taperssection.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=18615.msg235287#msg235287

A quick look indicates that the ES943 has a few dB lower output in the bass.
The ES943 has a more pronounced presence peak above around/above 10 kHz.

If we buy the AT specs published we find that the 12 mm diameter AT853 has 2 dB less selfnoise than the ES943 (27 dB and 29 dB SPL respectively). The AT853 has 3 dB less signal.
I.e the signal to noise ratio differ by a dB or so.. 

The ES943 is smaller.

The size, along with personal preferences wrt the sound, I think will be the matters on which to base a choice.

Or you just buy them both......

Jon

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Re: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...
« Reply #70 on: July 30, 2006, 06:53:17 AM »
>>In many months time, I guess I could afford the DPAs, but certainly not the Schoeps

i don't know where you got the price for the DPA 4021/22, but they are around +/-$3k per pair new.

marc




some people think it's a steal!

 

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