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Author Topic: spaced omnis placement confusion  (Read 24034 times)

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Offline kuuan

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spaced omnis placement confusion
« on: July 30, 2006, 11:58:29 PM »
just when I thought to have understood that spaced omnis are a prefered option if recording from minimal distance to the sound source, e.g. when possible to place them on stage, I ran across this:
Quote
Omnidirectional microphones and A-B Stereo are often the preferred choice when the distance between microphone and the sound source is large.
eehhh? ???
quote taken from: http://www.dpamicrophones.com/ /Microphone University/Stereo Techniques/A-B stereo
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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2006, 10:34:02 PM »
spaced omni's kick ass on stage but usually only if you have a pair of cards in the middle and it's a full room.

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2006, 12:06:42 AM »
I like Omni mics when I am recording acoustic stuff, but for amp'ed music I would personally never put a set of mics on stage, all you will get is a loud Guitar amp and cymbals, and if your real lucky a wee bit of vocal. But if you’re doing acoustic stuff it can be great to use Omni mics, or if your out front of the P.A in a good room omnis are great.

Just remember the two to one ratio, that Omni mics should be ( EDIT OR TEDIT ) Umm three times the distance apart as they are from the source. Meaning if you are 5 feet away from the source you should be (TEDIT) Umm 15 feet apart from mic to mic. Or introduce a boundary ( jecklin disk ) between the mics and you will not be limited to the two to one ratio for placement to avoid phase cancellation. This rule applies to Omni mics Cardioid mics do not have to adhere to the two to one ratio that Omni mics do.


Chris Church


just when I thought to have understood that spaced omnis are a prefered option if recording from minimal distance to the sound source, e.g. when possible to place them on stage, I ran across this:
Quote
Omnidirectional microphones and A-B Stereo are often the preferred choice when the distance between microphone and the sound source is large.
eehhh? ???
quote taken from: http://www.dpamicrophones.com/ /Microphone University/Stereo Techniques/A-B stereo

« Last Edit: August 02, 2006, 01:46:17 PM by Church-Audio »
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Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2006, 03:42:32 AM »
but for amp'ed music I would personally never put a set of mics on stage, all you will get is a loud Guitar amp and cymbals, and if your real lucky a wee bit of vocal.

While my experience mirrors Chris's with regards to weak vocals, I've not had the same experience getting only loud guitar amp and cymbals.

Just remember the two to one ratio, that Omni mics should be twice the distance apart as they are from the source.

I suspect this ratio originated for unamplified recording for orchestras and such, I'm not convinced it applies to on-stage recording of amplified performances.  I've found my mic placement depends on the layout of the band on stage, don't pay any attention to the 2:1 ratio, and have enjoyed the results.  In many cases, I couldn't physically use the 2:1 ratio even if I wanted to due to space restrictions.
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Offline kuuan

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2006, 07:18:13 AM »
thank you for the input.
I always have found confusing that on one hand the 2 to 1 ratio is recommended, but then again a spacing of just a few feet. It must depend on the situation, quality of sound source as you mention Brian. In the end I guess one has to experiment and find out oneself.
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Offline WiFiJeff

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2006, 08:46:42 AM »
a j-disc will be more consistent than spaced omnis. (there, I said it).

Teddy was fluffing Josephson C617s with 45cm (18") separation, I hve been using the C617s with various J-disky baffles.  I hope to try the spaced omnis next month, any other reports of good results with that small a separation?

Jeff

Offline Shawn

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2006, 08:58:23 AM »
a j-disc will be more consistent than spaced omnis. (there, I said it).

Teddy was fluffing Josephson C617s with 45cm (18") separation, I hve been using the C617s with various J-disky baffles.  I hope to try the spaced omnis next month, any other reports of good results with that small a separation?

Jeff

I've had decent results with narrow spaced omnis for on-stage recordings. Initially I was afraid the stereo image would be destroyed, but I think because of the very close proximity to the sound source a decent stereo image can still be achieved.

here is a sample... http://www.archive.org/details/tls2006-02-16.adktl.flac16

ps. one of the only problems that i am aware of with running omnis on-stage is that if the people in the front row are talking you will pick it up . The sample above shows that.


Offline Church-Audio

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2006, 10:48:29 AM »
I guess you can not apply a (TEDIT) Umm 3:1 ratio on everything, my own Omni mics do not need to be spaced like that but, I have run into problems with spaced Omni mics not being spaced via the 3:1 rule. I guess the biggest thing about mic placement is that yes, there are some rules but they do not always apply to every situation. I have definitely, as I am sure we all have had Omni mics spaced closer then the 3:1 ratio and ended up with good sound. I should have said that in my original post, not everything is written in stone.

but for amp'ed music I would personally never put a set of mics on stage, all you will get is a loud Guitar amp and cymbals, and if your real lucky a wee bit of vocal.

While my experience mirrors Chris's with regards to weak vocals, I've not had the same experience getting only loud guitar amp and cymbals.

Just remember the two to one ratio, that Omni mics should be twice the distance apart as they are from the source.

I suspect this ratio originated for unamplified recording for orchestras and such, I'm not convinced it applies to on-stage recording of amplified performances.  I've found my mic placement depends on the layout of the band on stage, don't pay any attention to the 2:1 ratio, and have enjoyed the results.  In many cases, I couldn't physically use the 2:1 ratio even if I wanted to due to space restrictions.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2006, 01:48:15 PM by Church-Audio »
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Offline ghellquist

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Re: 2-1 rule
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2006, 12:19:57 PM »
Now,
   this is the first time I have ever heard about any 2:1 rule. I cannot fathom how in any way that would help in setting the distance between the mics making up an AB stereo pair.

In my mind I think we could scratch that 2:1 rule forever.

When recording symphone orchestras I very often use two omnis. They are placed far enough into the room to get the best balance between direct and ambient sound, to capture the right amount of room. The distance depends a lot on the acoustics of the room. Sometimes one omni pair will not be the best solution.

The distance between the mics is set to get as good stereo separation as needed. Too far apart and there will be a large hole in the middle of the stereo picture, too close and there will not be enough separation. In my experience the distance between the two mics goes between about 1 foot up to maybe 8. In my recordings I generally end up at about 1.5 foot.

One different technique usable on symfony orchestras is to use three omnis, rather closer to the stage than with an AB pair. One goes in the middle, the two others flank it about 1/3 and 2/3 of the width. The mics are panned left, mid, right and the volumes set to a pleasant mix.

This is of course not very relevant to stealth micing of rock, where most of the sound comes out of the PA speaker stacks and the room ambience is mostly seen as a nuisance. I think you could use omnis to good effect in that environment as well. I would put the two mics on a stereo bar about 2 foot apart and hoist it high up in the air, using a stand at least 12 foot high, preferably more, to get away from the audience chatter.

Gunnar

Offline JasonR

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2006, 12:35:26 PM »
Just remember the two to one ratio, that Omni mics should be twice the distance apart as they are from the source.

That rule basically tells you to use AB spaced omnis only close to the sound source.  If you try to follow this rule at any significant distance, you'll have your mics out of the building, or if it's outdoors, you'll have a huge hole-in-the-center effect.

A more realistic rule might be the one from the New Stereo Soundbook that references keeping the spaced omnis apart by between 1/3 and 1/2 the width of the soundstage (ie: the PA in most cases).

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Offline Shawn

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2006, 01:15:52 PM »
does anyone have a good example of the 'hole in the middle' effect? I have an idea of what I am listening for, but I'm curious if I'm listening for the right things.

RebelRebel

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2006, 01:16:07 PM »
actually it is 3:1, not 2:1, Chris.

Just remember the two to one ratio, that Omni mics should be twice the distance apart as they are from the source.

That rule basically tells you to use AB spaced omnis only close to the sound source.  If you try to follow this rule at any significant distance, you'll have your mics out of the building, or if it's outdoors, you'll have a huge hole-in-the-center effect.

A more realistic rule might be the one from the New Stereo Soundbook that references keeping the spaced omnis apart by between 1/3 and 1/2 the width of the soundstage (ie: the PA in most cases).

- Jason

RebelRebel

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2006, 01:29:56 PM »
does anyone have a good example of the 'hole in the middle' effect? I have an idea of what I am listening for, but I'm curious if I'm listening for the right things.

Check out any Fritz Reiner RCA recordings for very obvious examples.

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2006, 01:44:08 PM »
Hey I said 3:1 not 2:1  :wink2:

actually it is 3:1, not 2:1, Chris.

Just remember the two to one ratio, that Omni mics should be twice the distance apart as they are from the source.

That rule basically tells you to use AB spaced omnis only close to the sound source.  If you try to follow this rule at any significant distance, you'll have your mics out of the building, or if it's outdoors, you'll have a huge hole-in-the-center effect.

A more realistic rule might be the one from the New Stereo Soundbook that references keeping the spaced omnis apart by between 1/3 and 1/2 the width of the soundstage (ie: the PA in most cases).

- Jason
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RebelRebel

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2006, 01:47:46 PM »
Hey I said 3:1 not 2:1  :wink2:

actually it is 3:1, not 2:1, Chris.

Just remember the two to one ratio, that Omni mics should be twice the distance apart as they are from the source.

That rule basically tells you to use AB spaced omnis only close to the sound source.  If you try to follow this rule at any significant distance, you'll have your mics out of the building, or if it's outdoors, you'll have a huge hole-in-the-center effect.

A more realistic rule might be the one from the New Stereo Soundbook that references keeping the spaced omnis apart by between 1/3 and 1/2 the width of the soundstage (ie: the PA in most cases).

- Jason

Quote from: Chris"amnesia"Church
Just remember the two to one ratio
:P

 

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