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RebelRebel

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #60 on: August 15, 2006, 01:59:30 PM »

They tend to regard "optimum distance" between two omni mics to be between 40 and 60 centimeters (a foot is about 30cm). I tend to end somewhere about there as well.

With regards
Gunnar

Gunnar, as you know, there are no surefire no or yes answers. There is no wrong.but, the rule exists, period. End of story. whether or not you find it pertinent is irrelevant.

and I somehow doubt that Gefell will heed your request. They have been in the business a bit longer than you. (well, everyone I know). Maybe if you were bob katz or dan lavry or Marc Aubort....

You say you do this for fun, and that you are still learning. How is it that you are managing to try to authoritatively state this or that???

No offense, but I think you may be better off not worrying about trying to change established rules that were written by our recording elders. Sure it was written before you could time align in DAWs and whatnot, but it DOESNT MATTER. The rule exists.

as for me, I rarely use templates or science(except for blumlein). I use my ears.










RebelRebel

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #61 on: August 15, 2006, 02:04:23 PM »
so many less rules to remember with baffled omnis!
:shrugs: ymmv

Amen!  ;D I dont use rules or templates anymore, I find that I always have to vary the established configurations to get the sound that I am searching for. I never use DIN, DIN(a) or XY. I always use A-B, Blumlein, M-S, 3 omnis, or modified NOS( 110-120 degrees and 12-14inches capsule separation),OSS, and soon, Decca Tree.  >:D

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #62 on: August 15, 2006, 03:01:03 PM »
so many less rules to remember with baffled omnis!
:shrugs: ymmv

Amen!  ;D I dont use rules or templates anymore, I find that I always have to vary the established configurations to get the sound that I am searching for. I never use DIN, DIN(a) or XY. I always use A-B, Blumlein, M-S, 3 omnis, or modified NOS( 110-120 degrees and 12-14inches capsule separation),OSS, and soon, Decca Tree.  >:D

Funny thing is that I find my desire to be discreet, the bands config, and the venue's layout and attitude towards me drive my setup more than anything else, LOL! God forbid, I could actually setup the way I'd really want to. Heh...
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Offline ghellquist

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #63 on: August 15, 2006, 03:47:36 PM »

Gunnar, as you know, there are no surefire no or yes answers. There is no wrong.but, the rule exists, period. End of story. whether or not you find it pertinent is irrelevant.
No offense, but I think you may be better off not worrying about trying to change established rules that were written by our recording elders. Sure it was written before you could time align in DAWs and whatnot, but it DOESNT MATTER. The rule exists.


Seriously Teddy. Show me how the rule would be applied in a stereo pair.

I am not a second arguing the existance of the 3:1 rule, I am arguing that it has no application to the distance between two mics in a stereo pair. Nothing less nothing more. Believing that it applies iis simply a misconception which I think people that knows better (like you) should stop trying to spread further.

Or if you continue in believing in what I believe to be a mistake, please, please, do explain exactly how it applies to the two mics in a stereo pair. Do make a drawing, showing that left mic is 10 yards to the west of the stage and right mic is 10 yards to the east of the stage and the stage is 10 yards wide and that this is the 3:1 rule. Once you have made this drawing, explain why this is the preferred rule how record using spaced stereo mics and then give one single example of a person doing recordings that way. If you can do that, yes, I will accept that the rule applies.

Gunnar

Offline WiFiJeff

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #64 on: August 15, 2006, 04:00:36 PM »

They tend to regard "optimum distance" between two omni mics to be between 40 and 60 centimeters (a foot is about 30cm). I tend to end somewhere about there as well.

With regards
Gunnar

The weird thing is that nobody seems to make a bar this size.  After reading a few weeks back in one of these threads about a great Handel tape made with omnis at 45 cm apart (Teddy's friend?), I tried to get a 45 cm bar, SabraSom makes 1 meter and 30 cm but nothing in between, every other manufacturer seemed to make shorter.  Luckily Jerry Bruck at Posthorn Recordings thought he could use a 50 cm bar too, so he sawed a one meter SabraSom bar in half and now we both have 50 cm mounts.  Will be trying it out in September.

Jeff

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #65 on: August 15, 2006, 04:43:27 PM »


great to hear that Jerry is still in the business  ;)

RebelRebel

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #66 on: August 15, 2006, 04:46:33 PM »

They tend to regard "optimum distance" between two omni mics to be between 40 and 60 centimeters (a foot is about 30cm). I tend to end somewhere about there as well.

With regards
Gunnar

The weird thing is that nobody seems to make a bar this size.  After reading a few weeks back in one of these threads about a great Handel tape made with omnis at 45 cm apart (Teddy's friend?), I tried to get a 45 cm bar, SabraSom makes 1 meter and 30 cm but nothing in between, every other manufacturer seemed to make shorter.  Luckily Jerry Bruck at Posthorn Recordings thought he could use a 50 cm bar too, so he sawed a one meter SabraSom bar in half and now we both have 50 cm mounts.  Will be trying it out in September.

Jeff

Yeah, that was John Lagrou of Millennia Media.

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #67 on: August 15, 2006, 04:53:16 PM »
I just found this. The stuff that relates to this thread is at the bottom... quite interesting...

http://www.regonaudio.com/MICROPHONE%20THEORY%20word.htm
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #68 on: August 15, 2006, 05:36:38 PM »
so many less rules to remember with baffled omnis!
:shrugs: ymmv

Amen!  ;D I dont use rules or templates anymore, I find that I always have to vary the established configurations to get the sound that I am searching for. I never use DIN, DIN(a) or XY. I always use A-B, Blumlein, M-S, 3 omnis, or modified NOS( 110-120 degrees and 12-14inches capsule separation),OSS, and soon, Decca Tree.  >:D

Funny thing is that I find my desire to be discreet, the bands config, and the venue's layout and attitude towards me drive my setup more than anything else, LOL! God forbid, I could actually setup the way I'd really want to. Heh...

Truth to all that.  Now we're in the real world again!

Honestly I was hesitant to even comment earlier in the thread, given my amateur status and with a web page of the inimitable MG stating otherwise.  No doubt overly oppressive, control freak, freedom hating rule makers dreamed up the 3:1 rule eons ago.  My personal take is that it applies to individual mics on separate sources and doesn't apply to stereo mic’ing.  Another personal take is most of these rules are really just guidelines and suggestions and nothing beats experimenting and listening.  I’ve learned more from moving mics around while monitoring through some phones with good isolation than from anything else, just from the immediate feedback I get. But, two things irked me on to post:

1. simple practical application - 3:1 works and works really well for individual mic’ing of separate sources on stage or any sources summed together in my limited experience.  3:1 doesn't work so hot for spaced omni stereo arrays in my slightly less, but still limited experience (ignoring geometry for now). In fact, off the cuff, I’d say reversing the ratio to 1:3 isn’t even enough most of the time and 10:1 is probably more like it, but I’d certainly never state that as a rule.  If the rule states that a spaced pair of mic’s in a stereo pair should be 3 times farther apart than they are from the source, that rule just plain doesn’t work in my experience.  Which makes me think it’s a mis-application of the original rule, after all aren’t these rules supposed to be good starting points at least? (especially since they’re only suggestions now that we’ve broken free from the domination of rule making oppressors)

2. some rules just can't be broken or agued away unless overwhelming evidence to the contrary is demonstrated – I’m talking about the laws of physics and mathematics.  It remains a fact that two mics can't be 3 times as far away from each other as they are from the same point source, unless everyone in the venue uses their cell phones simultaneously to place calls to Steven Hawkings’ answering machine (which oddly enough sounds just like him).  The rule just can’t apply since it is overruled by the pesky, domineering, micromanaging universe we live in.

The only time it could conceivably be applied to a stereo pair is when mic’ing a very large source (like a choir or orchestra that can be considered one source, guitarist stage left and keyboard guy stage right are two separate sources if your stereo mics are on stage) with the mics very far apart and very close in, at well a 3:1 ratio.  Try it and see if it seems like a good rule.  Seems to me there would be a rather distant and indistinct center image, but I’ll defer to those of you who get to do this sort of thing regularly.

Other arguments:

Arguing that it doesn’t even apply in the large source like a chorus case is a link to a Bruce Bartlett article on ProSoundWeb.com which states: “The 3:1 rule cannot be applied to miking a choir with a few mics. Why? Most of the singers are somewhere between the mics, and those singers will be picked up with some phase interference. However, since each singer is in a different position relative to the mics, each singer is heard with a different coloration. The effect averages out over all the singers and so is not very audible.”

I often see it stated that the rule applies to mics that will be summed to a single channel, ruling out stereo.

Isn’t the whole rational for the rule to reduce comb filtering issues? Usually I see the rational stated as something like: “This creates a level difference of at least 9 dB between microphones, which reduces the comb-filter peaks and dips to an inaudible 1 dB or less”. Spacing your AB pair that much will certainly do that, so much so that the phase information between the two will be nearly uncorrelated.

None of the first three pages of a Google search turned up links which apply it to stereo mic’ing.

Oh good, quitin' time.  I’ll shut up now.  Apologies for the overly long post.
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Offline kuuan

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #69 on: August 16, 2006, 10:56:35 AM »
I just found this. The stuff that relates to this thread is at the bottom... quite interesting...

http://www.regonaudio.com/MICROPHONE%20THEORY%20word.htm

thank's for the valuable link...T+
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Offline Church-Audio

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #70 on: August 16, 2006, 11:48:17 AM »
I do not want to argue with you but, The 3:1 rule does exist. I am not saying I use it but it’s out there, for some applications it would work just fine. You can not quantify every single technique and say this will not work or this will work every single situation is different, and requires different techniques. No amount of book reading prepares you for the real world, sometimes out trusted techniques work sometimes they don’t. My whole point was that this technique in some situations is valid and not just with a single MONO source with stereo ones too.

I don’t think anyone here can say that this technique or that technique, work or do not work unless they are in the exact same room with the exact same source on the exact same day> so your argument is moot.

It’s great to say I like this technique or that, but in audio one must be careful of shooting down something because a book told you its wrong. I have seen the most stupid ass shit work in real life, things that don’t make any sense, but on that day with that band or source they did. We must remember never to close our eyes to that. There are many people out there recording, that have not got a clue, but they try things and they find there own way. I say what ever you have to do to get the sound you want, you do. No matter how stupid the 3:1 rule is, it’s just one more thing in the toolbox of audio tricks that we can all use. Why say it’s not a valid technique? Are you the Technique police?  :P

so many less rules to remember with baffled omnis!
:shrugs: ymmv

Amen!  ;D I dont use rules or templates anymore, I find that I always have to vary the established configurations to get the sound that I am searching for. I never use DIN, DIN(a) or XY. I always use A-B, Blumlein, M-S, 3 omnis, or modified NOS( 110-120 degrees and 12-14inches capsule separation),OSS, and soon, Decca Tree.  >:D

Funny thing is that I find my desire to be discreet, the bands config, and the venue's layout and attitude towards me drive my setup more than anything else, LOL! God forbid, I could actually setup the way I'd really want to. Heh...

Truth to all that.  Now we're in the real world again!

Honestly I was hesitant to even comment earlier in the thread, given my amateur status and with a web page of the inimitable MG stating otherwise.  No doubt overly oppressive, control freak, freedom hating rule makers dreamed up the 3:1 rule eons ago.  My personal take is that it applies to individual mics on separate sources and doesn't apply to stereo mic’ing.  Another personal take is most of these rules are really just guidelines and suggestions and nothing beats experimenting and listening.  I’ve learned more from moving mics around while monitoring through some phones with good isolation than from anything else, just from the immediate feedback I get. But, two things irked me on to post:

1. simple practical application - 3:1 works and works really well for individual mic’ing of separate sources on stage or any sources summed together in my limited experience.  3:1 doesn't work so hot for spaced omni stereo arrays in my slightly less, but still limited experience (ignoring geometry for now). In fact, off the cuff, I’d say reversing the ratio to 1:3 isn’t even enough most of the time and 10:1 is probably more like it, but I’d certainly never state that as a rule.  If the rule states that a spaced pair of mic’s in a stereo pair should be 3 times farther apart than they are from the source, that rule just plain doesn’t work in my experience.  Which makes me think it’s a mis-application of the original rule, after all aren’t these rules supposed to be good starting points at least? (especially since they’re only suggestions now that we’ve broken free from the domination of rule making oppressors)

2. some rules just can't be broken or agued away unless overwhelming evidence to the contrary is demonstrated – I’m talking about the laws of physics and mathematics.  It remains a fact that two mics can't be 3 times as far away from each other as they are from the same point source, unless everyone in the venue uses their cell phones simultaneously to place calls to Steven Hawkings’ answering machine (which oddly enough sounds just like him).  The rule just can’t apply since it is overruled by the pesky, domineering, micromanaging universe we live in.

The only time it could conceivably be applied to a stereo pair is when mic’ing a very large source (like a choir or orchestra that can be considered one source, guitarist stage left and keyboard guy stage right are two separate sources if your stereo mics are on stage) with the mics very far apart and very close in, at well a 3:1 ratio.  Try it and see if it seems like a good rule.  Seems to me there would be a rather distant and indistinct center image, but I’ll defer to those of you who get to do this sort of thing regularly.

Other arguments:

Arguing that it doesn’t even apply in the large source like a chorus case is a link to a Bruce Bartlett article on ProSoundWeb.com which states: “The 3:1 rule cannot be applied to miking a choir with a few mics. Why? Most of the singers are somewhere between the mics, and those singers will be picked up with some phase interference. However, since each singer is in a different position relative to the mics, each singer is heard with a different coloration. The effect averages out over all the singers and so is not very audible.”

I often see it stated that the rule applies to mics that will be summed to a single channel, ruling out stereo.

Isn’t the whole rational for the rule to reduce comb filtering issues? Usually I see the rational stated as something like: “This creates a level difference of at least 9 dB between microphones, which reduces the comb-filter peaks and dips to an inaudible 1 dB or less”. Spacing your AB pair that much will certainly do that, so much so that the phase information between the two will be nearly uncorrelated.

None of the first three pages of a Google search turned up links which apply it to stereo mic’ing.

Oh good, quitin' time.  I’ll shut up now.  Apologies for the overly long post.

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Offline mmmatt

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #71 on: August 16, 2006, 12:18:05 PM »
I do not want to argue with you but, The 3:1 rule does exist. I am not saying I use it but it’s out there, for some applications it would work just fine. You can not quantify every single technique and say this will not work or this will work every single situation is different, and requires different techniques. No amount of book reading prepares you for the real world, sometimes out trusted techniques work sometimes they don’t. My whole point was that this technique in some situations is valid and not just with a single MONO source with stereo ones too.

I don’t think anyone here can say that this technique or that technique, work or do not work unless they are in the exact same room with the exact same source on the exact same day> so your argument is moot.

It’s great to say I like this technique or that, but in audio one must be careful of shooting down something because a book told you its wrong. I have seen the most stupid ass shit work in real life, things that don’t make any sense, but on that day with that band or source they did. We must remember never to close our eyes to that. There are many people out there recording, that have not got a clue, but they try things and they find there own way. I say what ever you have to do to get the sound you want, you do. No matter how stupid the 3:1 rule is, it’s just one more thing in the toolbox of audio tricks that we can all use. Why say it’s not a valid technique? Are you the Technique police?  :P


Chris,
He is not deneying that the rule exists.  His point is that it isn't physically possible to do with a single source and he is right.  Say there is a guitar player you want to mic with stereo omni's from 10' back.  Per the rule you would then be 30' apart on the omni's right?  His point is that by spreading the microphones out  30', each mic is no longer 10' away from the source.  If the rule stated that the center of the mic patern should be 10' from the source, or the mics should be 10' from the outside ends of the source (like a large orchestra) then the rule would be physically possible, but as it is stated in it's simple form it isn't possible to do.  I think his interpratation of the rule as being applicable for micing seperate sources makes sence.  After a certain distance you are not going to get bleed from other sources.  If you are micing a guitar cabinet from 2" away and a bass cabinet from 2" away, you would need to make sure that the capsuls are atleast 6" away from the oposite source.  My logic tells me he is right about this.  This rule, without a few if's, and's, or but's is literally physically impossible to use when mic'ing a single source in stereo.  Micing 2 seperate sources, in stereo, without bleed from one to the other, this rule makes a ton of sence.  When micing a single source in stereo you WANT bleed from one to the other, without it is not a stereo recording.  it is 2x mono!  Hard panned omni's would just be stupid for an ambient stereo recording.  The 3:1 rule should be called the "hole in the middle stereo mic technique".  It is foolish to tell people that this is a propper way to run stereo spit omni's.

Matt
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #72 on: August 16, 2006, 12:21:56 PM »
I say what ever you have to do to get the sound you want, you do. No matter how stupid the 3:1 rule is, it’s just one more thing in the toolbox of audio tricks that we can all use...

Agreed. It just seems like a misleading rule to me for stereo mic'ing, thats all.  Just trying to eliminate confusion, not trying to say "do it this way"
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Offline Church-Audio

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #73 on: August 16, 2006, 12:31:00 PM »
You are talking about one application of the rule lets say, I wanted to mic a symphony orchestra.  I had a cardioid in the center and two omni mics with the 3:1 rule; this would be a real world application of this law. I think that the 3:1 rule is not for every situation just like XY.
But it can be used for some.

Chris Church


I do not want to argue with you but, The 3:1 rule does exist. I am not saying I use it but it’s out there, for some applications it would work just fine. You can not quantify every single technique and say this will not work or this will work every single situation is different, and requires different techniques. No amount of book reading prepares you for the real world, sometimes out trusted techniques work sometimes they don’t. My whole point was that this technique in some situations is valid and not just with a single MONO source with stereo ones too.

I don’t think anyone here can say that this technique or that technique, work or do not work unless they are in the exact same room with the exact same source on the exact same day> so your argument is moot.

It’s great to say I like this technique or that, but in audio one must be careful of shooting down something because a book told you its wrong. I have seen the most stupid ass shit work in real life, things that don’t make any sense, but on that day with that band or source they did. We must remember never to close our eyes to that. There are many people out there recording, that have not got a clue, but they try things and they find there own way. I say what ever you have to do to get the sound you want, you do. No matter how stupid the 3:1 rule is, it’s just one more thing in the toolbox of audio tricks that we can all use. Why say it’s not a valid technique? Are you the Technique police?  :P


Chris,
He is not deneying that the rule exists.  His point is that it isn't physically possible to do with a single source and he is right.  Say there is a guitar player you want to mic with stereo omni's from 10' back.  Per the rule you would then be 30' apart on the omni's right?  His point is that by spreading the microphones out  30', each mic is no longer 10' away from the source.  If the rule stated that the center of the mic patern should be 10' from the source, or the mics should be 10' from the outside ends of the source (like a large orchestra) then the rule would be physically possible, but as it is stated in it's simple form it isn't possible to do.  I think his interpratation of the rule as being applicable for micing seperate sources makes sence.  After a certain distance you are not going to get bleed from other sources.  If you are micing a guitar cabinet from 2" away and a bass cabinet from 2" away, you would need to make sure that the capsuls are atleast 6" away from the oposite source.  My logic tells me he is right about this.  This rule, without a few if's, and's, or but's is literally physically impossible to use when mic'ing a single source in stereo.  Micing 2 seperate sources, in stereo, without bleed from one to the other, this rule makes a ton of sence.  When micing a single source in stereo you WANT bleed from one to the other, without it is not a stereo recording.  it is 2x mono!  Hard panned omni's would just be stupid for an ambient stereo recording.  The 3:1 rule should be called the "hole in the middle stereo mic technique".  It is foolish to tell people that this is a propper way to run stereo spit omni's.

Matt
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Offline ghellquist

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #74 on: August 16, 2006, 12:38:45 PM »
I do not want to argue with you but, The 3:1 rule does exist. I am not saying I use it but it’s out there, for some applications it would work just fine.

We all agree there is a 3:1 rule-of-the-thumb rule. It exists. It is a usable starting point.

But what we are saying is that IT DOES NOT APPLY TO THE DISTANCE BETWEEN THE TWO MICS IN A STEREO PAIR .  

Sorry for shouting. I will say it again, it describes something else than how to set up two mics as a stereo pair.
Again, when you setup tow mics as a stereo pair, do follow the guidelines of great people going ahead of us. None of them ever uses the 3:1 rule in this context.

I am sort of getting agitated here. Feel like I am talking to kids that does not want to listen. Or are you trying to make me angry? Guess what, I´m sort of getting there.

Talking about 3:1 and stereo pair in the same sentence is based on a total misunderstanding. Total, utterly off. Has nothing to do with each other.

If nothing else it is physically impossible! How could it then be the preferred setup? Guys, do make a drawing (paper and pen)!

Gunnar

 

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