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Author Topic: More Soundfield Fun!  (Read 14115 times)

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Offline F0CKER

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More Soundfield Fun!
« on: October 09, 2008, 09:16:13 AM »
I'm just copying the email I sent to SF, hopefully it's clear what I'm asking and shows through the audio samples I've attached.  Anyone have any idea what migth be causing this....FWIW< the tapes are complete, it's the overloading issue I have now.  But looking back I was having the same issue with the old battery setup.  This time instead of overloading and locking, it's overloading until I adjust the gain down.  So same root problem I think, but not as bad as before.
---------

Pieter - Wanted to raise another issue, unsure if it's related to the battery swap we just did.  I recorded two bands last night.  I've attached excel files with snapshots of the wav files to show what's going on.  Let me know if you can't open files in Excel, if not I'll find another way.  Sample 1 is where I have a problem, sample 2 is fine.  Attaching both for a reference.  Also, my settings and gain were consistent for both recordings so there shouldn't be any significant variances.  When I first did the battery swap I noticed my levels on my deck would overload at some point during each show, usually in the 20-30 minute mark.  I originally thought it was user error because I'd bought a new deck to use and was still fine tuning the gain settings. 

I recorded two shows last night.  The second one (Audio Sample 2) is perfectly fine.  The first one (Audio Sample 1) is where I see an issue.  Looking back on three recordings I made when I first made the swap a few weeks back I had the same issues, but as I'd said I relegated it to user error.

The gain setting on the 350 preamp and on the Edirol R44 were set at +18db total (+12db on the 350, +6db on the R44), which I thought was a little hot knowing the unit and its sensitivity to high dB sound pressure, but I was going off the levels I was seeing on the deck at that setting.  You'll notice the W channel is quite low relative to the X Channel.  I had the gain settings on all channels set exactly the same per your recommendation.  At the 26 minute mark, you'll see all 4 channels overload, at which time I dropped the gain setting on the 350 down to the lowest setting and the levels seemed to normalize to what I'd expect to see for a B Format recording i.e. W & X being comparable in gain, Y&Z being a little less, which is what I think the ideal gain across all 4 channels should be.  After I brought the gain down everything was fine and the recording was fine. 

Audio Sample 2 was fine across 4 channels from a W,X,Y,Z perspective.  What I would expect to see for a B Format recording where the gain setting is constant across all 4 channels.

When I first start the unit I notice the W channel is significantly lower in total gain than the others until the unit seems to warm up and then I experience the overloads at which point I cut the gain back on he 350 and all levels stabilize.  I think this is the key, W&Y should be comparable in total gain in an ideal setting.

Any idea what's happening here?  Is there a chance the 350 preamp needs to "warm up" for a period of time?  I also noticed this before I swapped out my Sound Devices 744 for an Edirol R44, which is why I was overcompensating the gain on W, as I'd mentioned in a prior email. 

Curious what your take is on this, and if you've experienced it before.  It's almost as if the 350 needs time to get warmed up prior to having all the channels stabilize.  Please see the attached files for reference.  Sample 1 is the defective file.  Sample 2 is perfect. 

Also, I checked with the sound engineer and asked him if he had adjusted the gain significant at any point during the set and he said he did not, he has a cap on the total gain and never adjusts it.

Thanks for your feedback.  I have two more recordings to make this weekend and will report back but would like to get your take on this and know if you've seen it before.


----------------------

Here are the files, any thoughts from the TS?

Nevaton MC49 -> Sonosax SX-R4

Offline mmedley.

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Re: More Soundfield Fun!
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2008, 12:37:08 PM »


Sell the mofo and get back to Schoeps.
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Offline F0CKER

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Re: More Soundfield Fun!
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2008, 01:08:40 PM »


Sell the mofo and get back to Schoeps.

See, the problem is I made a complete recording (error and overload free) last night of the band I went to tape - Dead Confederates (who fucking rock), and it sounds better than a schoeps recording to my ears.  So it's really a difficult decision.  And that was just the card pattern...I've haven't even messed with decoding to blumlein, hyper, sub or any variable in between.  You see the dilmena.

If this is a battery and voltage supply type issue, I think what I need is for someone with soldering skills to build me a battery pack to test against the SF one.  I can't solder to save my life...

Ideally I'd like to use a different external battery with a 2 pin lemo connection.

Who's up for it?

I think the bottom line is the battery for the preamp fucking blows goats.

BTW, SF has yet to respond to my email....5 hours.  At least acknowledge receipt of it and tell me you'll look at it closer in when you can.


« Last Edit: October 09, 2008, 01:10:47 PM by F0CKER »
Nevaton MC49 -> Sonosax SX-R4

Offline F0CKER

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Re: More Soundfield Fun!
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2008, 01:40:13 PM »


Sell the mofo and get back to Schoeps.

oh, also who the hell is going to buy it?  Nobody here in their right mind would.  And I don't feel quite right putting it on ebay knowing it isn't 100% in order. 

I should post it in the YS just for shits and giggles.  I wanna see my post count plummet faster than the DOW.


Nevaton MC49 -> Sonosax SX-R4

Offline F0CKER

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Re: More Soundfield Fun!
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2008, 02:03:05 PM »
113 views and all 113 are as stumped as I am, huh?

That makes me feel better.
Nevaton MC49 -> Sonosax SX-R4

Offline T.J.

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Re: More Soundfield Fun!
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2008, 02:21:12 PM »


Sell the mofo and get back to Schoeps.

 ;D

Offline anodyne33

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Re: More Soundfield Fun!
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2008, 02:28:26 PM »
Audio of the first pic?

I've no experience with the SF, and would just be guessing when I say it looks like a pre amp/power issue.
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Offline F0CKER

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Re: More Soundfield Fun!
« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2008, 02:46:40 PM »
Audio of the first pic?

I've no experience with the SF, and would just be guessing when I say it looks like a pre amp/power issue.

The audio in theory is fine, but because of the way SF decodes B Format to stereo there's a special balance in gain between the WXY and Z channels.  Ideally if all gain is fixed across four channels it should look like sample #2.  With sample #1, up through the first 24 minutes or so the decoding would be "fucked" for lack of a better word"  After the overload in sample number 1, everything appears as it should.  My question to SF, what is causing the overload, and why would the channels be different between the first 24 minutes and the final few minutes when the gain settings were all uniform.
Nevaton MC49 -> Sonosax SX-R4

Offline datbrad

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Re: More Soundfield Fun!
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2008, 02:54:33 PM »
113 views and all 113 are as stumped as I am, huh?

That makes me feel better.


It may just be 113 people rubber necking  >:D


Seriously, those level shifts have to be voltage related, same as what we saw happen at TLG and DBT last month. I think that battery issue is still haunting you. I wonder if you could call Doug and see if he can build you a custom power solution for the Soundfield preamp. I know he has been out of that game for a while, but I know Doug loves a challenge, so you may be able to convince him to try it just for you, shit for all of us......your Soundfield threads need to start showing up only in the Kickdown section where the comments are limited to "holy crap" and "how much was that thing again?"
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Offline todd e

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Re: More Soundfield Fun!
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2008, 03:02:44 PM »
113 views and all 113 are as stumped as I am, huh?

That makes me feel better.


It may just be 113 people rubber necking  >:D


Seriously, those level shifts have to be voltage related, same as what we saw happen at TLG and DBT last month. I think that battery issue is still haunting you. I wonder if you could call Doug and see if he can build you a custom power solution for the Soundfield preamp. I know he has been out of that game for a while, but I know Doug loves a challenge, so you may be able to convince him to try it just for you, shit for all of us......your Soundfield threads need to start showing up only in the Kickdown section where the comments are limited to "holy crap" and "how much was that thing again?"

agreed it a battery issue still, just an opinion (highly unqualified...)


Offline F0CKER

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Re: More Soundfield Fun!
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2008, 03:03:50 PM »
113 views and all 113 are as stumped as I am, huh?

That makes me feel better.


It may just be 113 people rubber necking  >:D


Seriously, those level shifts have to be voltage related, same as what we saw happen at TLG and DBT last month. I think that battery issue is still haunting you. I wonder if you could call Doug and see if he can build you a custom power solution for the Soundfield preamp. I know he has been out of that game for a while, but I know Doug loves a challenge, so you may be able to convince him to try it just for you, shit for all of us......your Soundfield threads need to start showing up only in the Kickdown section where the comments are limited to "holy crap" and "how much was that thing again?"


yeah Brad I'd originally thought it was user error when the levels were overloading, but it seems it's an ongoing problem just manifesting itself differently now.  I've got two shows this weekend then I'm shipping it back and demanding a refund.  I have no more patience for this.

622's here I come.


Nevaton MC49 -> Sonosax SX-R4

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Re: More Soundfield Fun!
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2008, 03:13:34 PM »
Audio of the first pic?

I've no experience with the SF, and would just be guessing when I say it looks like a pre amp/power issue.

The audio in theory is fine, but because of the way SF decodes B Format to stereo there's a special balance in gain between the WXY and Z channels.  Ideally if all gain is fixed across four channels it should look like sample #2.  With sample #1, up through the first 24 minutes or so the decoding would be "fucked" for lack of a better word"  After the overload in sample number 1, everything appears as it should.  My question to SF, what is causing the overload, and why would the channels be different between the first 24 minutes and the final few minutes when the gain settings were all uniform.


Okay, I'm in over my head now.

So there's no way to hear the audio of the segment where it goes ape shit because it needs to be decoded as a whole, or am I misunderstanding?


« Last Edit: October 09, 2008, 03:16:29 PM by anodyne33 »
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Re: More Soundfield Fun!
« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2008, 03:27:12 PM »


Okay, I'm in over my head now. I just assumed that the problem stemmed from whatever happened at 26:00 that looks like an overload.



No, the probem was there from the get-go in that the signals weren't balanced relative to each other at the same gain setting...the decoding would've been fucked up in post.  Then the overload happened, anmd when I cut the gain back, everything went into balance.

I sent an email to the dirstributor saying I was pissed I hadn't heard bac from SF, just to acknowledge receipt of my email.  Not that I needed an answer, just that I wanted a confirmation that they saw the email and are looking into options or will get back to me soon.

I've been told they're taking the issue up with the battery interface supplier. 

In any event I've already told them I want a refund....now who's got used schoeps to sell me?
Nevaton MC49 -> Sonosax SX-R4

Offline ero3030

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Re: More Soundfield Fun!
« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2008, 03:33:59 PM »
hate to see u w/ all these troubles.  makes me love my simple to use dat more and more.  keep at it.  things will work out.  ed
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Re: More Soundfield Fun!
« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2008, 07:36:37 PM »
If this is a battery and voltage supply type issue, I think what I need is for someone with soldering skills to build me a battery pack to test against the SF one.  I can't solder to save my life...

Ideally I'd like to use a different external battery with a 2 pin lemo connection.

Who's up for it?



What voltage does the pre run on?...... any chance of posting a pic of the SF batt pack? I could probably put one together but I do not have any materials at the moment. I may suggest some high quality R/C cells in whatever arrangement needed to get proper voltage. I can build batt. packs no problem just nee some more info. BTW the R/C cells can get pretty pricy so it just depends on how much you want to spend on this thing. Of corse you could always get some cheap cells just to test it out I guess.....

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