Topic: Suggestions for upgrading rig

[matsa]

Always trying to improve my rig, but I'm currently stuck. Can't figure out which part(s) to replace to get better results.

Ok, I record my vocal ensemble and some classical music. Noise must be kept low as possible, since the music is rather silent compared to rock shows.
Also, I like a rig that is minimal as well as easy+quick to set up (=few units and single point mic preferred). I could add a phantom supply, but would like to avoid it (=battery powered mics preferred unless phantom and pre are combined).

Today, I use: Rode NT4 -> Denecke AD20 -> iriver 140 (battery&memory card modded).
I'm happy with the current rig, but I kinda like buing new stuff. What would you suggest for my improving the above rig?

Thanks!
/Matsa

[yltfan]

What about moving to a 24 bit recorder? The Sony M10 seems to be the weapon of choice for many around here.

[F.O.Bean]

Naiant LittleBox>Sony M10

[rastasean]

Naiant LittleBox>Sony M10

for sure.
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=128321.0

[notlance]

Does your current rig not meet you needs or do you just have the itch to spend money?  I understand the latter completely.  You have made no mention of $$$, so I will assume the sky's the limit.

If you are trying to simplify your rig going to an all-in-one recorder with built-in preamps seems to be the way to go.  If you want quiet the recommendations are the usual suspects: Sound Devices 722 or 702, Fostex FR-2LE, Marantz 661.  These are the ones I have used and they are all capable of making fine recordings.  I prefer the Sound Devices boxes, but of course they are the most expensive, by about a factor of 3.  I am sure there are other acceptable recorders out there that others would recommend, but the ones listed above I have used.

New, good, quiet, single-point stereo mics are scarce these days.  Lots of inexpensive low-end stuff is geared towards audio for video use and is not very good.  On the other extreme, Neumann and Schoeps make a couple of stereo models between them which I am sure are fine mics but I have never used them.

Three stereo mics I have used and can recommend are (in order of increasing price) Busman BA-SR1, Busman BSCS-L and the Nevaton MC48.  The BA-SR1 is a very nice sounding (especially with the Lundahl transformers) stereo ribbon which sounds great on classical or jazz vocal groups.  Nice on strings too.  However, it is a ribbon so it is somewhat delicate and has low output so it need lots of quiet preamp gain.  The BSCS-L is a good sounding, moderately quiet, versatile LDC stereo mic.  My biggest complaint with the BSCS-L is it's big and heavy, but some like 'em big.  Busman Audio is a member here.  http://www.busmanaudio.com/index.html

The LDC Nevaton MC48 is neutral sounding and quiet.  Not as versatile as the BSCS-L, but quieter, smaller and lighter.  Does the MC48 sound better than the Busman mics?  That's a matter of taste and the music you're recording.  Nevaton is sold by a member here: http://bigpurpledog.com/mc-48

[matsa]

Great tips! Thanks a bunch all!

@notlance: you're so right! Although I'm not unhappy w my current rig, it could always sound a little bit nicer. Also, buying new, better stuff is great!

For starters I'll look into the LittleBox.

Please continue to share your advice!

[ArchivalAudio]

littlebox > M-10
see my pics here:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=143728.0
--Ian

[ArchivalAudio]

also in the future upgrading the mic- not that the NT4 is a bad mic- but there's a lot of other "flavors" out there!  While I still have my NT5's I hardly ever use them and always turn to my Milab VM44 links
but at like 4x + the price of the NT5's it took me a while to get there.

[F.O.Bean]

And I forgot to mention, get the LittleBox w/ OUTPUT Transformers

Here are a few of my MBHO Hypers>LittleBox[With OUTPUT Transformers]

Trey 2/25/2011
http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=542790&hit=1

Dead Kenny G's 3/12/2011
http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=543244&hit=1

Keller Williams 3/19/2011
http://www.archive.org/details/kw2011-03-19.ka500.603a.lb.r09.flac16

[ero3030]

Today, I use: Rode NT4 -> Denecke AD20 -> iriver 140 (battery&memory card modded).
I'm happy with the current rig, but I kinda like buing new stuff. What would you suggest for my improving the above rig?

^^^ never heard that around here before.lol

[acidjack]

Each aspect of your gear chain could use an "upgrade" if you're talking about achieving the best specs, of course... But this isn't as cut and dried as it first appears, I guess.

The AD20 is a fine AD converter, so you're basically just using the iRiver as a bit bucket.  The iRiver is 16bit and therefore not IDEAL, but I'm not so sure the 16 vs. 24bit difference is THE critical aspect of your rig.  In some ways, if you're being encouraged to switch the mic to phantom and then run it all analog through a littlebox (a great inexpensive preamp) into the iRiver, I could see that maybe being worse than the nice digital signal path you have now.  So, as pointed out, you'd need a new deck, too.  But that still leaves an analog signal path where you used to have a digital one.

I would think about the potential performance improvements from running that Rode mic off of phantom instead of batteries.  As everyone here will tell you, mics are the most important aspect of a rig. I would think that either getting a better, phantom-powered single-point stereo mic, or strongly considering a phantom powered stereo pair, might be better.  A stereo pair offers more placement options and greater upgradeability in terms of using different capsules for different polar patterns. 

Having a budget here would help, as that would clarify things in terms of what your realistic options are.

[matsa]

Again, thanks for all the input! Much appreciated.

Yup, the iRiver is a bit bucket. However, I recall reading that the truncation from 20 to 16 bits (AD20 to iRiver) may actually be beneficial from a noise perspective, although it's only 16 bits.
Keep in mind that I record "quiet" sound sources, so noise/hiss is the big issue.

I deliberately didn't give a budget in order to get all kinds of suggestions raining, and I'm still hesitant since is may impede creativity. But since it is requested; for a mic upgrade, I could go to 1k$. Possibly more. But, out of convenience, I feel I must stick to stereo mics (battery power is a +) - my former rig had two mics, but I constantly found myself trying to opt that away by clever single point holders to get an ultra quick set-up of the equipment.

BTW, from a noise and hiss POV, how does integrated pre+recorder units like the Fostex FR-2LE or the Marantz 661 compare to, for example, an AD20->iRiver (or similar) combo?

[notlance]

Nature recordists (those who record animal and natural sounds) are very concerned with recorder and microphone noise, so they are a good source of information on the subject.  Here is a table from a nature recording site listing the noise specs of all the recorders you mentioned:

http://www.avisoft.com/recordertests.htm

This is also worthwhile reading:

http://www.avisoft.com/tutorial_mic_recorder.htm
http://www.rane.com/note148.html

I record mostly classical music in quiet environments at 24bits/44.1 kHz and the room has always been noisier than my mic and recorder combination.  I've used the 661, FR-2LE, and the 722 recorders, but I have much more experience with the Sound Devices recorders.  However, I believe that if you record at 24 bits, noise will not be an issue with any of these recorders.

I do not understand how truncation from 20 bits to 16 bits could decrease the noise; digital systems don't work like that.

[rastasean]

I was looking for that avisoft link! Thanks for posting.

So as you can see the fr2LE is pretty quiet when compared to all those other recorders and pretty affordable.

Since you're interested in single point stereo, have you considered anything like the core sound tetramic? Only a couple people on this forum have it but it may be some interest to you. This would be an upgrade to at least a four channel recorder to accommodate all four channels, but you could put this on a stand and hit record knowing you can do all adjustments later with software. The self noise may be a little concern at 19 dBA per capsule but how is self noise measured anyway.
of course, this mic requires four channels and phantom power.

http://www.core-sound.com/TetraMic/1.php

[matsa]

Thanks again!

Having read the posted links carefully, I find that the BP4025(which came to my attention)->FR-2LE seems like a nice combo as long as the sound source is not loud.
However, I read both good and bad about the AT BP4025 performance.
Does anyone have experience of the 4025, or even the combo 4025+FR-2LE for recording e.g. a choir?
Do you think that I can avoid a separate preamp unit by choosing the FR-2LE, or am I better of with e.g. a littlebox+a cheaper recorder?

Your comments are as always much appreciated!

P.S.
A few years ago I was very excited about the tetramic, but came to the conclusion that for me, a dummyhead could deliver better results. That project is still on hold.
I haven't given the truncation influence on noise much thought, but I liked the idea since I was about to set up the AD20->iRiver combo.