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Author Topic: Side of stage recording? Creative advise sought.  (Read 7785 times)

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Offline StarkRavingCalm

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Side of stage recording? Creative advise sought.
« on: September 03, 2013, 09:42:34 AM »
With a band that I have SBD access to, I usually will record both SBD and use an external mic and dual record with the DR-2D and then mix them in post.

But a few times this year due to space constraints, the SBD has been on the side of the stage.
One time was in a really small area and I used binaurals with decent results.
This past weekend, the board was actually on the platform with the band.
I did not use external mics but was still in dual mode on the recorder so the internal mics picked it up.
Internal mic recording actually came out decent and should sound quite nice mixed in with the SBD feed.


What creative methods have other people used in these situations?

Does anyone have a go-to mic just for this?



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Re: Side of stage recording? Creative advise sought.
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2013, 10:02:50 AM »
If it were me, I'd invest in cables to patch into the soundboard that are long enough to get to a convenient place offstage and run split omnis at the stage lip. The mics may require a longer cable as well depending on what gear you have. If you can get your mics up about the height of the top of the kick drum it sounds better.
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Offline StarkRavingCalm

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Re: Side of stage recording? Creative advise sought.
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2013, 10:52:05 AM »
This is not possible at these particular shows.
My only alternative is if they have the lighting guy in the crowd and I pick up a second recorder to run the mics.
But in the cases where they are both on the side, like this past weekend, I would only have the option of one recorder.

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Re: Side of stage recording? Creative advise sought.
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2013, 10:58:35 AM »
Cant you put your recorder on the stage, use the built in mics - and run the soundboard signal to it via long cables?

Sort of limits your access to the recorder for level changes though...

Offline StarkRavingCalm

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Re: Side of stage recording? Creative advise sought.
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2013, 11:03:09 AM »
So, this configuration is OK on the stage?
Is there a better option than the built-in mics?


What if there is a condition where it is not feasible to have recorder on the stage?

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Side of stage recording? Creative advise sought.
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2013, 11:58:13 AM »
Starting with the SBD and adding a pair of mics to improve that it is more or less the opposite approach to the more standard practice around here of starting with a well optimized AUD and adding SBD for clarity.   So perhaps it's not that surprising that very different mic locations and configurations can work or actually be called for.

I attended a friend's wedding in Santa Cruz a couple months ago and ended up being asked to run sound for his band performing in a big redwood barn at a retreat in the mountains.  Soundboard was located off to one side of the band due to the length of cables.  I had brought a small rig to record their performance, but the recording immediately became of secondary importance.  Once we got them all set up and soundchecked, I quickly made an aux bus SBD mix and recorded that to a DR2d along with two dpa 4060 omnis boundary mounted to adjacent sides of a huge redwood beam against side the wall behind me- one side facing directly towards band, the other along the wall into the audience side of the room.  Chose a mic position that was close, easily accessable, within the length of patch cable and out of the way.  Checked levels and just let it run, hands full with lots of open mics and acoustic instruments during the performance.  I didn’t worry about it too much and

When I got home the next week and transferred the files, I realized I had neglected to reset the recorder to write wave files again after letting my nephew record some things as 128bit mp3 files a couple days before the wedding.  Between the compromised mic placement and the low rate mp3 format I didn't expect much, but the combination of the SBD and AUD actually worked out quite nicely.  Neither alone is great, but the combination of them work very well, exactly as I hoped it would.  Still need to mix it down for them, maybe this week. 

If you have a SBD feed, the requirements of what you need from a pair of AUD mics is relaxed.  You can get away with a far less than ideal placement since you really just need the room ambience, audience reaction, and any musical information that isn't in the SBD feed.  In my situation I had all instrumentation and vocals in the feed through the board, so I just needed good room ambience, depth and audience reaction from the AUD mics behind me on the column to glue it all together and put everything in place.

Similarly, when making a multitrack recording off the board, its common practice to use two very wide-spaced cardioids, each at opposite, far edges of the stage pointing out into the room as a way of picking up audience reaction and room ambience while limiting pickup of the sound on stage. 

The other (opposite) way to go about it is to treat it as a more typical AUD + SBD and try to optimize the AUD as if there would be no SBD available.  Which means getting the mics arranged on stage or at the stage lip in a typical stereo configuration like the others have described here.

While somewhat opposite approaches, both can work.  It somewhat depends on the music, how good the SBD feed sounds, and what you can get away with doing in a practical sense.


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Offline StarkRavingCalm

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Re: Side of stage recording? Creative advise sought.
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2013, 01:20:27 PM »
Thanks everyone.

While I do think we may be veering off-topic just slightly, you bring up some interesting points.


So...

On Topic:

Are you saying that pointing mics, specifically cardioids, away from the band, at the edge of the stage, to get sound of the room, etc... is the best approach in this situation?
Would binaurals be a good option as well?
I would assume the same for the instance where the board was on-stage as well?


Off Topic:

I seem to be reading from your post Gutbucket that this is preferred even IF the board is placed in the audience and facing the stage.


Or should it be two different approaches:

Board on Side Of Stage:
SBD + AUD pointed AWAY from band

Board in Audience, set back:
SBD + AUD facing TOWARDS band



Taping rock shows in small clubs was relatively easy. But these festivals where it is not open taping is quite challenging.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Side of stage recording? Creative advise sought.
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2013, 03:02:28 PM »
As far as making a recording is concerned, sound wise I don't see how it matters much where the soundboard is physically located.  Could be a pragmatic, physical layout thing like the availability of running your mic feeds through the snake or something I suppose.

What I'm pointing out is that if you are recording the SBD as well as a separate pair of microphones, there are two very different basic approaches to using those microphones.  Beyond that there are many different specific ways to set them up. 

I can't say which is better in a general sense, or specify which variations are more likely to work without knowing each situation.  It all depends on the situation.

As for those basic differences in approach- one way is to think of the mics as the main source, positioning and arranging them to get the best recording you could make with the mics alone.  Then using the SBD as a nice 'extra' to improve that starting point, mostly by providing up-front clarity and definition.  In that case the AUD is primary and the SBD supports it.  The AUD mics could be back in the room, or setup on stage or at the lip, basically all the ways we normally think of setting a single pair of microphones.

The other is to assume the SBD as the main source, or at least a primary part of your recording if not capable of standing entirely on it's own.  In that case the basic elements provided by the microphone pair may be quite different.  The mic pair is not designed to 'stand alone' without the SBD, but is instead arranged specifically to support and integrate with the SBD.  In my previous example and maybe in yours using the DR2d internal mics, the microphone recording isn't intended to stand on it's own.  It might contain little more than reverberation and crowd cheering, but that might be exactly what you need to improve the SBD feed. And because of that difference in approach, it may actually be best to limit the direct on-stage sound picked up by those mics.  The SBD will providing that and you gain flexibility in setting the mix ratio by being able to bring up just the other stuff that isn't in the SBD. In that case pointing the microphones away from the band instead of towards the band might be a better option.  But you only find out by trying things.

More on some specifics later..
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Side of stage recording? Creative advise sought.
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2013, 05:12:57 PM »
OK, specifics-

Re-reading your post I understand that you have the recorder located at the board to keep the SBD wire run short and easy.   So when the board is out in the room you set the recorder there, use the internal mics and point it at the band.  You could substitute external mics if you wanted to, which would be located in about the same place, but eitherway at that point a question about pointing the mics arises:

Would I want to set up the mics the same way regardless of the SBD feed?  In other words, would I use a different configuration if I know I have a good SBD feed or would I set them up the same way if I did not?

One answer is to set them up the same, as if there were no SBD recording.  In that case I might choose a mic pattern and configuration that first of all maximizes the direct arrival sound for best clarity and has solid imaging across the 'soundstage'.  Lets say I use supercardioids and Point At Stacks to get the clearest sound from my recording position back by the board.  Maybe it's somewhat center-heavy and not very enveloping but that's better than echoy and over-wide with a hole in the middle.  If the SBD doesn’t work out that might be the best ‘mics-only’ option.

However, since I know I’ll have a SBD recording, I can change my microphone configuration to something that might work better with the SBD, but not as good on its own.  I don’t need to concern myself with maximizing the direct clarity above all other microphone setup variables because I get most if not all of that from the SBD.  So for example I might switch to cardioids and choose a wider angle or spacing or both, to get a better sense of the room depth and audience envelopment from the mics.  I don’t have to worry about direct clarity or a hole in the middle of the playback image since the SBD compensates for both of those things.  That’s a “sum is better than the individual components” approach, maximizing the potential for a better recording, but taking more of a risk if one part of it doesn’t work out.  A relatively common version of that is using rather wide spaced omnis at either corner of the SBD cage in combination with a SBD feed for an outdoor festival.  The omnis might be over-wide alone, but the SBD fills the middle nicely and the extra width ends up making things better.  If you are only using the internal mics back there, you’d probably just point them at the stage.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2013, 06:18:16 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Side of stage recording? Creative advise sought.
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2013, 05:31:02 PM »
When the board is at the side of the stage you hook things up the same way, and the question again is, “how do I point the recorder” or “how do I arrange and point my external microphone(s)”

The answers are again variations on the same line of thought as before, but you might choose differently-

You can choose the option that would provide the best ‘mics only’ recording from that location or one which may be riskier but might work better when combined with the SBD.  If choosing the best mics only location, you will probably point the recorder or mics at the band, either from the side SBD location, or a potentially better spot like the stagelip at the center of the stage if the situation and your cables allow you to do that.

Or you might plan on relying on the sum of both recordings which relaxes the constraint to get good clear direct sound from the band in the microphone recording above all else, allowing you to get a better recording of the things the mics pick up but the SBD doesn’t.  That might be the on-stage acoustic sound (in which case you may leave the recorder or mics at stagelip facing the band) or maximizing the audience and room sound.  In that case you might point your recorder the other way, like the spaced cardioids pointing into the audience at either edge of the stage as described previously.. or tape your binaural omnis to the front wall of the stage, spaced apart and facing out into the room and away from the band, maximally isolated from the direct sound by the stage wall and lip.

I can’t tell you which will be better. It depends on the situation, your experience and expertise, and the practicalities of cables and allowable mic and recorder placement.
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Side of stage recording? Creative advise sought.
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2013, 06:12:58 PM »
I'll just add this analogy and then stop blathering and STFU.  8)

A similar set of choices parallels the evolution of my surround recording techniques. I went from using known good 2-channel stereo microphone setups with other mics added on to produce multichannel surround recordings (which was safest since I could always revert to 2-channel stereo if the other stuff didn’t work) to abandoning the safe 2-channel stereo starting point setups that rely on the sum of all the mics working in combination.

One example of many- I used to tape small omni mics to the back wall of the room, spaced widely, as surround channel mics.  Those were usually recorded to their own recorder, an R-09 or DR2d and sync’d to the front three channels later.  I later switched to mounting them the same way, but on the short wall under the stage facing away from the band, for a few reasons.  Some were simply practical- I could keep all my gear together, I could record all channels onto one DR680 and not have to sync things later.  But others, and the reason I bring this up, were simply about getting the best overall combined sound.  I found that what was optimal for a left/right surround pair was not the same as what was optimal as the best sounding stereo pair from the same location.  The boundary mounted omnis on the back wall actually got way too much nice clear direct sound to be optimal surrounds.  They actually sounded nice and clear and present and would have been acceptable alone as a stereo recording.  And although the band sounds dull and distant when listening in isolation to the same two mics placed under the stage facing away and into the room, that configuration works better when used as a surround pair for a few reasons.  It lets me bring up the level of the surrounds more to get the room ambience, the bloom, and the audience reaction I want from them, without messing with the image up front.  The timing between mics worked better too.

Pointing the mics or recorder away from the band is sort of like that.  If you understand why you might want to do it and think it worthwhile, it’s a risk you may choose to take.   I placed the mics on that beam at the wedding gig with the intent of recording the room and audience first and foremost with the mics, and not the band.  I knew the band sound wasn’t optimal from where I could place the mics anyway, so getting something which would maximally improve the SBD recording was the best bet. 

But even if this all makes sense reading it here, you need to try it out yourself to get a good understanding of what’s going on and when to make that determination.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2013, 06:22:40 PM by Gutbucket »
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline StarkRavingCalm

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Re: Side of stage recording? Creative advise sought.
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2013, 08:13:25 PM »
Ok, so I was going to reply with a lengthy reply as I thought you were taking me down a "general guide-lines" path but in re-reading your posts, you I believe you are answering my posts.

Thank you for the insight.

The situations I mention, it is not open taping but I am friends with the band so they allow it for me.
In other words, I don't get to set up a stand and put it anywhere I want, but they allow me to use their equipment.

I was fully prepared to try out the new Oktava 319s I just bought but when I saw where the board was I decided against it.
I normally use external mics with the unit, the internal being used was a fortunate accident since I did not switch out of DualMode.



So given that I am somewhat limited in my configuration as they are not "taper-friendly", how should I best handle these situations?

Is there a "go-to" mic others have used in these situations?
« Last Edit: September 03, 2013, 09:06:54 PM by StarkRavingCalm »

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Side of stage recording? Creative advise sought.
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2013, 08:40:23 PM »
So given that I am somewhat limited in my configuration as they are not "taper-friendly", how should I best handle these situations?

That's a whole different set of constraints, depends on the situation.  No reason not to try the Oktava off to the side simply as a substitute for the internal mics as long as that's cool.  More an issue of what's allowed than the position of the board, recorder and mic.

Quote
Is there a "go-to" mic others have used in these situations?

Not really.  Maybe small omnis which can be boundary mounted by taping them against the side wall or something else like that.  Besides being nearly invisible, the boundary mounting technique that can do some pretty amazing things from unexpected and less than normally ideal locations, IME.  Far more so than simply choosing a regular microphone pattern or make.
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline StarkRavingCalm

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Re: Side of stage recording? Creative advise sought.
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2013, 09:11:20 PM »
Agreed.

Just to be clear, I don't normally use the internal mics. Prior the purchase of the Oktava's , it was CSB or CSC.

So, considering the constraints, and in a situation where it is on the side, would you recommend:
Stage lip pointed at the band
or
pointed out at the audience to get the sound of the room?

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Re: Side of stage recording? Creative advise sought.
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2013, 02:04:24 AM »
I know the convenience factor of running a SBD and AUD recording straight into the dr2d is nice and all, but I don't think it would be worth it getting a SBD patch AND recording with AUD mics at the side of, or on the stage is even worth it. Just pick up another dr2d and get a SBD patch wherever the SBD may be, and use the second dr2d with your AUD mics ;) and like someone else suggested, if recording ONLY on the side of, or on the stage is all you can do, invest in LONG cables. then you could patch the SBD at the side of the stage, and run long cables to DFC on the stage and run an onstage/SBD matrix ;)
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Side of stage recording? Creative advise sought.
« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2013, 09:35:18 AM »
Stage lip pointed at the band
or
pointed out at the audience to get the sound of the room?

Can't say.  It depends on the band, the PA mix, the room, the monitors, the crowd, the phase of the moon, how attractive your date is, and how salty the drummer's vocabulary gets during the second set.

I'd try it both ways.  Switch microphone orientation between sets, or between songs.  Mix them both down, compare the two and decide what sounded best.
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Offline StarkRavingCalm

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Re: Side of stage recording? Creative advise sought.
« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2013, 09:38:43 AM »
Gutbucket - Thanks. A second machine will go along way in this type of experimentation

FOBean - I agree. In cases where the lighting tech is where the sound tech would normally be i can use a second recorder and sync the two in post.
But in the example of the other night, he was side of stage while the sound board was on stage.

Damn these iPad enabled boards.  ;  )

What is DFC?

The issue with the long cables goes back to them being friends and not really taper friendly.
I try to stay out of the way in that regards.

If I can do it in an un-obtrusive way, it's definitely worth it.

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Re: Side of stage recording? Creative advise sought.
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2013, 10:46:38 AM »
DFC = Dead Fu##in' Center


If its an iPad controlled board you might be able to get an iPad and record what the board sends out. Depends on the board I guess but I believe it can be done with the small Mackie boards. I haven't really dug into that aspect of things in depth yet but a friend who is a sound man was showing the app on his iPad and talked about it being able to record. He was using an iPad II so it doesn't have to be the latest and greatest.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2013, 10:52:07 AM by cybergaloot »
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Re: Side of stage recording? Creative advise sought.
« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2013, 11:15:21 AM »
DFC = Dead Fu##in' Center
Thanks. Makes sense.

If its an iPad controlled board you might be able to get an iPad and record what the board sends out. Depends on the board I guess but I believe it can be done with the small Mackie boards. I haven't really dug into that aspect of things in depth yet but a friend who is a sound man was showing the app on his iPad and talked about it being able to record. He was using an iPad II so it doesn't have to be the latest and greatest.


That would only help with the SBD feed which is not my dilema.
I only mentioned the iPad because with that type of remote capability, the board can now go anywhere and it does not matter.
Sound tech can walk around and adjust levels from all points of the audience.


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Re: Side of stage recording? Creative advise sought.
« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2013, 09:41:17 PM »
If you have a very, very cooperative person running the board, and if there are two unused mic channels with direct outs on the board, I wonder if you could possibly run your mics through these channels via the direct outs into your 2d and then capture the overall board mix into the other two channels on your 2d.  Your mics would have to be kept out of the pa mix on the board.   I'm not sure if using the mute buttons on the board for these channels will kill only the pa or both the pa and the direct outs.

Not all mixers have direct outs for each channel. 

If all this were to work in your particular situation, then you could minimize your cable runs from the stage by going through the stage snake.   The selling point for the band would be you could offer them more of what they sounded like in the room. 






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Re: Side of stage recording? Creative advise sought.
« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2013, 09:52:00 AM »
If you have a very, very cooperative person running the board, and if there are two unused mic channels with direct outs on the board, I wonder if you could possibly run your mics through these channels via the direct outs into your 2d and then capture the overall board mix into the other two channels on your 2d.  Your mics would have to be kept out of the pa mix on the board.   I'm not sure if using the mute buttons on the board for these channels will kill only the pa or both the pa and the direct outs.

Not all mixers have direct outs for each channel. 

Direct outs can be set to pre or post fader. On some boards you have to open them up to make the change. Sometimes it is a switch, sometimes you have top cut a trace on the channel strip. Why is this a worry? It's pretty common practice among sound engineers to bottom out the fader on unused channels. Direct outs are affected by the channel strip's EQ and effects settings.

Rather than use the direct outs it might be better to make some cables to tap the inserts instead. Almost all boards have inserts. I do this and the only thing that affects it on the board is the gain of the channel's preamp. You don't have to worry about how the EQ is set or any effects the board may have being applied accidentally. All you have to do is to cut the lead to the ring on the board end of the cable and then jump the ring to the tip. If you cut the lead near where the insulation is skinned back, then you can bend it over and solder it to the tip connection. On some boards, like Mackies, you can just pull the trs connector out a notch in the inserts but that does not work for all boards, i.e. Allen & Heath. You could just cut the lead to the ring but if you ever use the cable on a channel that get mixed into the monitors or main mix, the sound man will hate you. Jumping the tip to the ring makes the cable universally acceptable (assuming they don't want to use the insert for outboard gear). BTW, I have never seen any pre-made cables that work as I have described, you have to make them.
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Offline StarkRavingCalm

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Re: Side of stage recording? Creative advise sought.
« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2013, 10:09:42 AM »
If you have a very, very cooperative person running the board, and if there are two unused mic channels with direct outs on the board, I wonder if you could possibly run your mics through these channels via the direct outs into your 2d and then capture the overall board mix into the other two channels on your 2d.  Your mics would have to be kept out of the pa mix on the board.   I'm not sure if using the mute buttons on the board for these channels will kill only the pa or both the pa and the direct outs.

Not all mixers have direct outs for each channel. 

If all this were to work in your particular situation, then you could minimize your cable runs from the stage by going through the stage snake.   The selling point for the band would be you could offer them more of what they sounded like in the room.



This is interesting.

One of the techs had mentioned tapping one of the mics above the drums to get the "sound of the room".
I haven't tried it yet.
It would be a good experiment though.

I really prefer AUD recordings to SBD in general because the SBD has no life to it.
But, with a method like this, maybe it could come out sounding like a really clear AUD recording.


Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: Side of stage recording? Creative advise sought.
« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2013, 10:20:08 AM »
The mics above the drums are going to get more cymbals/drums than you probably want.  I think you'll still need your mics placed carefully to capture the whole band. 

What I suggested is very board specific and it would be an exceptional set of circumstances  for all the pieces to come together. A lot of bands are short on available channels to start with, for example.     

The more general consistently controllable and workable solution to avoid lots of your own cable run would be to buy a second recorder to record the SBF/audio mics separately and then sync later. 

What I don't know is the consistency of the audio drift between multiple Dr-2d's over an hour or so.  I've compared audio drift among the tascam Dr-2d, Tascam DR-05 and Sony PCM M10 and found them to vary from each other over say an hour, but I don't have two of the same units to compare together.  Having two of the same units would be closer to sync, I suspect.   

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Re: Side of stage recording? Creative advise sought.
« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2013, 10:53:48 AM »
I wouldn't place the mics over the drums. As already stated you will get mostly drums but it will also drive down your levels because of the high energy spikes coming from snare and cymbal hits.
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Re: Side of stage recording? Creative advise sought.
« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2013, 11:03:04 AM »
If you want room, mic the room not the band.  The band is already mic'ed and that's what you are getting with the SBD. If the SBD is lacking in something instrumental (guitars maybe?) then you may want to take that into consideration and place your room mics (which could be the internals on the recorder) to pick up enough of that as well as the room.
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Re: Side of stage recording? Creative advise sought.
« Reply #25 on: September 05, 2013, 11:08:32 AM »
The mics above the drums are going to get more cymbals/drums than you probably want.  I think you'll still need your mics placed carefully to capture the whole band. 

Thats what I suspected.


So I think overall, I have I three options

Run one machine when board is in audience
         SBD and Mics into same machine

Run two machines when board is on side of stage but lighting tech is in audience
         SBD into one machine and Mics into a second machine. Sync during post

Run one or two machines when both are on side of stage
        This is where I need to be prepared for several configurations
        Getting there earlier to assess the situation ( not assuming a plug-n-play situation every time )
        Getting longer cables in cases where I need to have the mics at stage lip to capture the room
        Since the internal mics on the DR-2D came out pretty decent, and the DR-40 supposedly has better quality internals, this may be a good opportunity here.
        It wouldn't hurt to run both machines in DualMode and pick the best sounding Mic recording of the night


The lesson in all of this for me is not to assume outdoors is like taping in a club + the 'bleed' (for lack of a better term) you get from being outdoors.
I need to be better prepared for any and all circumstances.


I'm gonna need a duffel bag soon  ;)


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Re: Side of stage recording? Creative advise sought.
« Reply #26 on: September 05, 2013, 12:36:09 PM »
If you already have both machines, then try it, but I'd be cautious about trying to sync two different models.   There's a risk that the internal clocks in different models will run at just enough different speeds that syncing a full track of an hour's performance will be a pain.  Then you end up having to sync each song during the performance.  It depends on whether you're willing to do the extra work in order to have maybe a more flexible set of recorder options instead of two of the same units.   Black Friday is around the corner and there should be some deals to be had. 

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Re: Side of stage recording? Creative advise sought.
« Reply #27 on: September 05, 2013, 01:02:45 PM »
Thanks.

Normally I would buy a second DR-2D. The main thing that has kept me for the DR-40 is that Dual mode is possible but the InternalMics is always one of the sources.
You cannot use two External Sources.

But since the Internal Mics on the DR-2D sounded really good and I know the DR-40 are much better......
(Plus having XLR and Phantom Power for the Oktava's)

I might just start with a second DR-2D and see how it goes...

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Re: Side of stage recording? Creative advise sought.
« Reply #28 on: September 05, 2013, 01:25:40 PM »
I have two DR2ds but rarely use them both simultaneously. Can't say how well they'd sync and although their clocks are far more likely to be close since they are the same model, it really depends on the two particular units.  I had two R09s that were very close, and knew of others which were not.

I've been supprised that the internal mics on the DR2d are as decent as they are.  How do you know the mics on the DR40 are "much better"?

So I think overall, I have I three options

Run one machine when board is in audience
         SBD and Mics into same machine

Easy enough.

Quote
Run two machines when board is on side of stage but lighting tech is in audience
         SBD into one machine and Mics into a second machine. Sync during post

Syncing files from two seperate machines can be a pain.  Much easier to record on one machine if you can manage that.  A bit of extra effort to make that happen will pay off.  Are you certain you really need mics out in the audience (the AUD+sbd approach)?  Try it both ways to find out if its worth that effort, mics in the audience may not necessarily be better (the SBD+aud approach).

Quote
Run one or two machines when both are on side of stage
        This is where I need to be prepared for several configurations
        Getting there earlier to assess the situation ( not assuming a plug-n-play situation every time )
        Getting longer cables in cases where I need to have the mics at stage lip to capture the room

Both good ideas anytime, but you don't need to have the mics at a stagelip to capture the room sound.  That's more important for capturing the direct sound of the band when you don't have a SBD recording.  You have far more freedom with placement of the room mics, they can work fine off to one side- spaciousness and ambience is their job, not imaging.

Quote
The lesson in all of this for me is not to assume outdoors is like taping in a club + the 'bleed' (for lack of a better term) you get from being outdoors.

This is outside?  Bleed from nearby stages at a festival or other environmental noises?
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Offline StarkRavingCalm

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Re: Side of stage recording? Creative advise sought.
« Reply #29 on: September 05, 2013, 01:57:31 PM »
I've been supprised that the internal mics on the DR2d are as decent as they are.  How do you know the mics on the DR40 are "much better"?

Just from people's feedback on this site


Quote
Syncing files from two seperate machines can be a pain.  Much easier to record on one machine if you can manage that.  A bit of extra effort to make that happen will pay off.  Are you certain you really need mics out in the audience (the AUD+sbd approach)?  Try it both ways to find out if its worth that effort, mics in the audience may not necessarily be better (the SBD+aud approach).

I agree, but will have to wait and see ( I did run two DR-2D's back in Aug. when the board was so far back I know the crowd would overpower the band sound wise. This is based on last years experience at same festival...).
But I have not gotten around to trying to sync the two as of yet...

Overall I like AUD recording better so I kind of lean in that direction when recording.
On nights I have only been able, for one reason or another, been able to get a SBD feed, I don't enjoy the recording as much as an AUD one.
But I love mixing the two.
[/quote]



Quote
This is outside?  Bleed from nearby stages at a festival or other environmental noises?

"Bleed" was for lack of a better term and for brevity.
Should have said that the sound dissipates outside where it does not inside.
Again, lack of better term...

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Side of stage recording? Creative advise sought.
« Reply #30 on: September 05, 2013, 02:14:23 PM »
Overall I like AUD recording better so I kind of lean in that direction when recording.
On nights I have only been able, for one reason or another, been able to get a SBD feed, I don't enjoy the recording as much as an AUD one.
But I love mixing the two.

I'm with you.  A bit of SBD is a great addition to mix in moderate amounts but I don't care much at all for it by itself.  I personally find many mixes lean too heavily on the SBD for my taste.

Didn't realize this was an outside fest.  Doesn't change these things that much except that you probably don't have a chance to try different stuff and figure out what works best as quickly as you could with a more regular club dates.. at least until next year.  One thing that it might change is big outdoor subwoofers dominating an off to the side AUD mic placement simply due to their proximity and higher output.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2013, 02:19:21 PM by Gutbucket »
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: Side of stage recording? Creative advise sought.
« Reply #31 on: September 05, 2013, 02:45:53 PM »
The more options you create for yourself, the more chances you have of getting the recording you can use.  I'll share this story to illustrate. 

By happenstance, I was shooting a fireworks video this weekend and put my Sony away from the crowd close to the place where the fireworks were located.  The music track they planned to use with the fireworks failed at the beginning of the show, but started working near the end.  The camera audio picked up the crowd noise and the obvious start/fail music track, but the Sony didn't.  The Sony gave a good capture of the fireworks.  So I was able to take the Sony audio and make it appear like it was intended for the music track to start late and used the camera audio for the applause at the end.  The combination of the two different audio tracks enabled me to cover over the music track failure on the video.

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Re: Side of stage recording? Creative advise sought.
« Reply #32 on: September 06, 2013, 10:49:25 AM »
I've been supprised that the internal mics on the DR2d are as decent as they are.  How do you know the mics on the DR40 are "much better"?

Just from people's feedback on this site



I have a DR40 and think the internal mics are just so-so. I don't have a DR-2d (yet) so I can't compare the two.

I agree that AUDs in general are better than SBDs but a matrix of the two is usually great. The exception might be at a big outdoor event where everything is in the mix in good proportions and there is a lot of crowd between you can the stage.
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Re: Side of stage recording? Creative advise sought.
« Reply #33 on: September 06, 2013, 09:01:46 PM »
I've been supprised that the internal mics on the DR2d are as decent as they are.  How do you know the mics on the DR40 are "much better"?

Just from people's feedback on this site


Quote
Syncing files from two seperate machines can be a pain.  Much easier to record on one machine if you can manage that.  A bit of extra effort to make that happen will pay off.  Are you certain you really need mics out in the audience (the AUD+sbd approach)?  Try it both ways to find out if its worth that effort, mics in the audience may not necessarily be better (the SBD+aud approach).

I agree, but will have to wait and see ( I did run two DR-2D's back in Aug. when the board was so far back I know the crowd would overpower the band sound wise. This is based on last years experience at same festival...).
But I have not gotten around to trying to sync the two as of yet...

Overall I like AUD recording better so I kind of lean in that direction when recording.
On nights I have only been able, for one reason or another, been able to get a SBD feed, I don't enjoy the recording as much as an AUD one.
But I love mixing the two.



Quote
This is outside?  Bleed from nearby stages at a festival or other environmental noises?

"Bleed" was for lack of a better term and for brevity.
Should have said that the sound dissipates outside where it does not inside.
Again, lack of better term...
[/quote]

I couldnt agree more! I LOVE DAUD recordings. SBDs are routinely "dry" and "sterile"! I would much rather have an AUD recording. Now when its possible to mix the SBD/AUD sources, I LOVE those recordings. I usually go 60% AUD and 40% SBD, but every recording is different ;)

I have two M10s and believe it or not, they sync VERY EASILY in post ;) I have talked to others who have used two M10s and synched them in post, and their experiences were the same as mine. Super easy to sync in post ;) Never used two DR2Ds tho, so I have zero experience with those ;) Obviously, the best way to do it would be AUD/SBD into the same DR2D. But thats not always possible!
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