Topic: Noob questions: Mics + Tascam vs Sound Devices deck

[Todd R]

The DPAs are definitely a nice choice, but if you want them used it probably will take a bit of looking around and waiting for them to come available.  From a price standpoint, with the constantly changing value of the dollar vs the euro, the price paid will depend a lot on when they were first purchased.  For that matter, the used market value also can change with the price of a current set.  I'd say depending on the particular deal and the accessories included, the DPAs used will be in the range of $2200-2700.

Not to sound like the Milab fluffer, but the Milabs new and presumably available immediately via retail will be about $1850.  If you can wait a bit and if brn2n run is still brokering Milab sales, you can get them for about $1450-1500, and it may take a couple months.  If you are willing to wait a 2-3 months, you can probably find the DPA 4022/4023s for $800-1000 more than the brokered Milabs.

I do think the Milabs are one of the best choices, esp for the $, esp if you want to buy new and not wait for a deal to come up on used DPAs/Neumanns/etc.  OTOH, the DPAs are the one mic I still lust after....

[grider]

So I guess my remaining questions are: 1) any further words of wisdom on the above options? 2) are there any nice 'standard' stereo mounts/bars for compact mics that would work with the Rode shockmount? and 3) I see continued reference to the idea that 4020s can be had used for $2200 or so, but it's not clear where these used items are being sold. Any other sites I should check?

with regard to the mics themselves, the Milabs are new to the market, while the DPA's have been in wide use for years, so it might be easier to resell the DPA's if you were unhappy with them, you can purchase demo DPA's at a discount from DPA USA in Colorado by contacting its president Bruce Myers, and they sell here in the yardsale regularly too

[stevetoney]

That leaves me at...
FR2LE with Oade super mod and no upgrade path (right on budget) OR Sound Devices 702 (budget busting!) and the possibility of going to a V3 preamp/ AD without selling & buying a new recorder. If the V3 offers any improvement over the stock 702 mic pre and A/D, that is. I now feel the pain of all those people on the FR2LE threads who were upset at the lack of digital in/out.

I'll let the others cover mics...you mention the 702 being budget busting and it's definitely a costly piece of gear.  But way back at the beginning you stated yourself as an audiophile, so you know of course that you get what you pay for.  What I can offer is that there are a TON of Sound Devices 7XX series owners on this TS.com forum and I honestly can't remember reading anyone that said that they regretted their purchase.  Sure, there have been discussions about the sound of the 7xx vs. what you get from other sources, there's been discussions about some software bugs that have shown up here and there, but when it comes right down to it, the SD is made like a tank and the product support is second to none.  The product is also light years ahead of the competition in terms of features and flexibility.  One possible negative is that there isn't a 'right out of the box' ability to use it, but spend an hour or two with the manual and you've got most everyhting you need to know.  Another hour or two messing around with the box and paging through the software menu's and you're a pro.  The bottom line is that you probably would have absolutely no regrets if you decided to spend the extra $1000 and go straight for the SD product. 

Another thought is that many people on this list own lower priced gear because they're on their way stepping up towards eventual ownership of the 7xx series.  So many people sell their recorders on the YS and when asked what they're moving to, the answer is the SD7xx.

[Kevin Straker]

That leaves me at...
FR2LE with Oade super mod and no upgrade path (right on budget) OR Sound Devices 702 (budget busting!) and the possibility of going to a V3 preamp/ AD without selling & buying a new recorder. If the V3 offers any improvement over the stock 702 mic pre and A/D, that is. I now feel the pain of all those people on the FR2LE threads who were upset at the lack of digital in/out.

I'll let the others cover mics...you mention the 702 being budget busting and it's definitely a costly piece of gear.  But way back at the beginning you stated yourself as an audiophile, so you know of course that you get what you pay for.  What I can offer is that there are a TON of Sound Devices 7XX series owners on this TS.com forum and I honestly can't remember reading anyone that said that they regretted their purchase.  Sure, there have been discussions about the sound of the 7xx vs. what you get from other sources, there's been discussions about some software bugs that have shown up here and there, but when it comes right down to it, the SD is made like a tank and the product support is second to none.  The product is also light years ahead of the competition in terms of features and flexibility.  One possible negative is that there isn't a 'right out of the box' ability to use it, but spend an hour or two with the manual and you've got most everyhting you need to know.  Another hour or two messing around with the box and paging through the software menu's and you're a pro.  The bottom line is that you probably would have absolutely no regrets if you decided to spend the extra $1000 and go straight for the SD product. 

Another thought is that many people on this list own lower priced gear because they're on their way stepping up towards eventual ownership of the 7xx series.  So many people sell their recorders on the YS and when asked what they're moving to, the answer is the SD7xx.

I wouldn't let the slightly larger size of the P2 be much of a determining factor. The 702 has some nice lights and construction, other than that, save your money and buy a Mod HdP2. Use the change on a better set of mics. Why do so many people preamp the 7XX series if they are so nice as an all in one box? Now if it had the pres from a psp2 in it, I'd jump right on the band wagon.

[sea-speak]

I'm sure the 702 is a great piece of kit. I'm just gonna have to meditate on that while staring at my credit card.

Re mics, I talked to a guy at DPA USA yesterday. He suggested that I go with omnis rather than cardioids. He said that cardioids were at their best when quite close to the sound source (say 3-5 feet) and that they'd roll off in the bass much more than omnis. I'm not reproducing his arguments in full here (and I didn't catch all of them, only most of them) but he really thought omnis were the way to go.

Any thoughts? I suppose most of the folks here on the forum are taping live shows (duh) and that's the one thing I don't really plan to do. But in the aggregate people here probably have slightly different miking targets than I will. I can see the benefits of being able to reject some background sounds, just not sure based on the conversation I had that it's worth the tradeoffs.

waiting for your 2c,

Brandt

[sea-speak]

I guess I'm trying to figure out why people here would say to go with the cards while others would say go with the omnis. What do you see as the practical pros and cons of each type?

I've read the Oade mic faq and the DPA mic university stuff, btw. Trying to do my homework. But it's always the practical experience of people who use the mics that is most helpful.

cheers,

Brandt

[sea-speak]

Are omnis harder to use well?

[stevetoney]

I can't really add anything to what Moke said, but as an audiophile yourself, I'm sure you can understand how those of us that are into this subject can talk your ear off all day about the differences between cards, omni's, subcards, etc.  What you probably should keep in mind though is that you're gonna without a doubt get a great transparent sound out of the DPA 40xx line of mics and what is being discussed is how best to utilize the different directional patterns that the mic options give to maximize your success for the types of taping you'll be doing. 

Most people on TS.cm record live music, so the default for most of us tends to be cardioids for the sake of being able to reproduce that stereo sound mix that might be coming out of the PA speakers (or of course just to reporduce the live feel of the guitar left, drums center, bass right if there's no PA.)

Anyway, my point is that I'd think that ANY of the DPA 40xx patterns would sound great in most situations you can throw at them (relative to say a lesser quality microphone/capsule combination)...it's just like Moke said that having a greater arsenal would allow you to maximize the results in any given taping scenario.

For example, there's no shame in recording live music in a crowded venue with omni's (that might not be able to shed crowd chatter as well as cardiods) if that's all you have...and there's no shame in using a baffle with your omni's in order to supplement having to spend another $3k on a pair of cards that you might not use very often.  The reason there's no shame is that if you're using the rig you're contemplating, you're gonna still be pulling awesome sounding recordings, IMHO.

[sea-speak]

>I can't really add anything to what Moke said, but as an audiophile yourself, I'm sure you can understand how those of us that are into >this subject can talk your ear off all day about the differences between cards, omni's, subcards, etc.

Heh. Yep. With playback systems I've had 20 years or so of following the market and listening to different stereos as well as evolving my own rig. (Leading to my current rig involving rebuilt Apogees, custom corner-loaded subs, eight channels of amps, and a fiddly digital room correction system.) I know the problem with being on a forum when you don't have direct experience with the stuff people are talking about - it becomes impossible to know the importance of what person A says vs person B.

Put another way, I know from experience that I like dipoles, and especially magnetically driven dipoles (haven't liked the 'stats I've heard yet, but that day may come!). Box speakers - except some minimonitors - leave me cold. If I hadn't heard various dipoles and boxes, I wouldn't be able to choose based on arguments on forums. I imagine it's the same with omnis, cards, condensers vs ribbons, etc.

Probably in this case I just have to buy some of these mics and try 'em. Much as I would like to get all the answers from you guys -- and you're doing a pretty good job of providing them!

best,

Brandt

[sea-speak]

fully understood.

[Todd R]

Part of the problem is that you want to record things that aren't the most typical for recordists on this board, so we might not know what works best in those applications.  And part of the problem is you want to record different types of things, which might not lend themselves to the same types of mics.

For recording environmental sounds, I'd think that you want to use omnis based on their characteristics (though I haven't done this type of recording).  For recording amatuer musicians in your living room, I think either omni or cards would work.  Personally, I find cards to be a more all-round mic to use and I'd tend towards them for this application, using a nice stereo pattern (ortf, din, etc).  I wouldn't worry about the loss of bass at a distance, this won't be that significant and you won't be that far away. 

For doing interviews, I have no idea since I don't know exactly how or where you are recording these.  Off hand, I'd guess that the directionality of cards could be very useful in conducting interviews, and might help keep down the extraneous ambient sounds you're not interested in, which you'd pick up more of if you use omnis.  Also, again, I don't think the larger distance rolloff of low frequencies DPA spoke of would be an issue here.  Probably the opposite, to the extent cards roll off low frequencies, it would work to your advantage.  Spoken voice isn't going to be using these frequencies, so if you roll off low frequencies with cards compared to omnis for interviews, you'll probably be losing unwanted HVAC noise, trucks rumbling in the background, etc -- all sounds you don't want to capture anyway.

Bottom line, I'd still recommend using cardioid mics as a good all-round choice.  You might want to see if there are any ENG discussion boards though to ask around in, as I don't think interviews and ENG is a very big topic on this board.

Good luck!

[deadheaded]

this thread has been a great read!!
figured i'd throw my 2 cents worth into the mix.
of course i'm going to vote for the schoeps mk-41 for your microphone choice.  but any of the suggestions here for mics would be great for you.
for your recorder, as the newest member of the 1 bit club, i say you should give the korg mr-1000 a try.
$1050 shipped from sweetwater then have busman do his magic on analog stage for $175.

schoeps ccm 41 > mod korg mr-1000 would be a great all in one box stealthy rig.

and todd:  great use of the word fluffer.

keep up the good work boys & girls, making great recordings.

thanks
ed

 

[bluntforcetrauma]

I happen to own and use both the DPA 4022 and DPA 4061, which I like both for various situations.  The omni's seem a little brighter, sounding a little crisper but again being omni's they pick up everything.  The cards - 4022 are great with a genuine sound that i believe represents what is being recorded.  In my experience the cards- 4022 give a broader range of use without to much worry about picking up sounds around you( ones youdont want).  But again if you are doing environmental sounds you would want the DPA 4061, but again if the " outside SPL" are not loud enough it could be a little harder to pick up certain sounds that might be farther from your recording radius.  Both are great, I could be tempted to give mine up, but i see you need them before xmas, hmm could be tough I would have to think about it. You can ask Doug about them, jsut tell him Scott in florida said hi.

[AlexG]

go with DPA 4020 series mics, high quality and little coloration and a true representation of the sound you are recording; as for the Tascam HDP2, do people actually run mics directly into that unit?  I can't think of a single taper or recording with that rig

I ran a pair of C4s into a stock P2 and had very good results.  Here is a sample of one of those recordings 

http://www.archive.org/details/can2006-06-25.c4.flac16

I've since upgaded my mics and my pre and to be honest the difference was mostly in the mics.

[sea-speak]

I'm still thrashing around a little, but I think I'm making some progress. I talked to Jerry Bruck at Posthorn Recordings and he suggested I go with wide cardioids / subcardioids / hypocardioids -- whatever you wanna call 'em. He thinks that the wide cards provide a better sense of soundstage depth than straight cards. He seems to know what he's talking about.

I have also ordered Mike Williams' book "Microphone Arrays for Stereo & Multichannel Sound Recording, Vol 1". I should have it by tonight. The message I got from both Jerry and Mike (talked to the former; emailed the latter) was that for imaging purposes it was crucial to be able to control the spacing and angle of one's mics. So that rules out single-piece stereo mics such as the Rode NT4, Pelusos, and Royers (heh). As far as good compact wide cards go... that market appears to be more or less limited to DPA and Schoeps. Ouch.

I'm also realizing that if I don't get a deck with digital out, I'll have to upgrade my stereo's front end to receive 24/96 signal. So I probably need digital out. (So long, Fostex FR2LE!)

As for mounts...the options appear to be limited. If anyone knows of a bar that functions like a Schoeps UMS20 but costs about a third as much, please post or PM me ASAP!!

Short of the story: budget increasing; purchase targets narrowing. I will post with full update when I figure out what I'm buying. You guys have been really helpful so far. The most knowledgeable people off-forum I've communicated with have been Jerry and Mike.

more in a bit,

Brandt

ps somewhere here on TS I found a link to Mike Williams' article on his 'stereophonic zoom' technique. I thought it was really interesting. If I had enough posts to +T the person who provided the reference to the zoom, I would. Here's (one) link again:
www.rycote.com/products/pdf/The%20Stereophonic%20Zoom.pdf