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Gear / Technical Help => Ask The Tapers => Topic started by: touchofsound on November 11, 2003, 07:09:37 PM
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if this has already been addressed, i apologize for the redundant thread, maybe someone can point me to the right place.
i was wondering if i could get some recommendations on gear, for recording a live show with the intention of commercial distribution. i realize that gear is only as good as the person who uses it, but obviously some mics, preamps, cables. etc are better than others. so call it a wishlist if you will, but i'd love to read what some taping veterans revere as "some of the best" out there.
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are you working for a band who wants to sell their live shows?
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what kind of music?
where do you want to record from? ie. on the stage for Jazz or in the hall (is it a good sound venue or not)
MMW's "Tonic" was recorded with a pair of schoeps on stage so it can be done but we need a touch more info!
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thanks for responding so quickly. yes, this is for a band that is exploring the idea of selling live recordings. the act is acoustic/electric, with keys and and a drummer. venues are arenas, averaging 12,000+. location-wise, i was thinking of using mics in the audience. i've been asked not to mention who this is for, just so the band isn't beat to the punch in making their own announcement, if the recordings are ever released. thanks again.
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look in rig pics of my shots of SCI's recording rig. they go two ways, aud, sbd > matrix in post or matrix at the sbd cleaned up in post. they are multitracking onto tape, hard drive and using two channel dat as backup. they run 4022>v2>rack. jon-o uses yamaha digital board for the delay for the matrix. i don't thonk you want to put the mics in the audience of 12,000. better at sbd
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Okay... this is assuming you want to keep this as a 2-track project, if multitrack is what you desire there are other options available that I will not be getting into here.
for official release from venues that large I think your best bet would be some sort of mic/sbd mix. Ifyou're playing places that big you should be able to run a lineout of the board and get a straight board feed that sounds good. You could run two track out of the board into an Apogee MiniMe into a laptop at 24/48. Ideally you could add a pair of stereo mics at the mix position. I'd look into a stereo mic of some sort... the akg 426 or, ideally, the soundfield st-250. This would allow you to dial in the mic to each different room on every night very precisely while keeping setup simple and short. For a stereo pair I'd look into the schoeps cmc6/mk41's; akg483's; or the Microtech Gefell m210's. I think for general ease of use night in and night out I'd go with one of the stereo mics. All mics listed are of very high sonic quality.
otherwise if you want strictly mics your best bet is to run either
1. in the sweet spot which is probably going to be just in front of the FOH mix position. unfortunately this puts you out into the crowd and takes up space and can potentially disturb the patrons seated around you.
2. you can run mics from the FOH mix position... this would be simpler but the ratio of direct to reverberant sound is worse than from in front of the board and as such your results may vary.
for either of those two choices I would look into the grace designs 101 preamp (or any of the other grace products) and an apogee minime a/d converter (or any of the other apogee converters). The Grace Designs Lunatec V3 is an all in one solution that may interest you as well. As for mics I think you would be safe with any of the above listed microphones.
Just some ideas...
www.gracedesign.com
www.apogeedigital.com
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here this is my favorite mic... http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F007%5F002%5F007%5F001&product%5Fid=33%2D3019
other than that i like my AKG's aha, but thats about it...
peace
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akg 414's are a good pair to run spread omni's onstage with a sbd matrix. also, the 414's have multiple patterns, omni, cardioid, hyper and figure-8 if i'm not mistaken. The multiple patterns will give you several options for many different situations. moe. uses them onstage, usually spread the width of the stage. as aud tapes, when in a FOH position, i like the dpa 4011's and an earthworks qtc-1 omni.
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The EW omni's are generally used as measurement mics for programs like SmartLive. I don't think I'd like the sound of an omni in the middle of an arena. I'd stay away from cardioids in a place that big too.
You should PM KwonFidelity
I'm sure Robert can give you some great ideas!
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i like cards moreso than hypers in an arena that size, not way far back of course, but in a good spot at foh.
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thanks for all the feedback. you guys rock. i'll keep you posted on what we go with.
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Large diaphram mics run M/S from FOH (Neumann tlm170, AKG 414, ADK A51TL,...). Record a board feed, either a 2 channel stereo mixdown (i.e. the PA mix), or multi-track if you can. You can then mix some audience & board to get the best sound from what you recorded. Please master at 24bit/48k or higher resolution - you will be glad you did.
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DPA 4040 ::) ::) ::)
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Sony ECM-909a -> WM-D3. Just kidding.
eh.. AKG 483's -> V3 -> DA-P1 would sound nice in about any place.
-Jim
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audience -room mic: gefell mk202/josephson 606b>grace/dacs/jim willimas/millennia pre/mytek converter
audience-pa: pearl line array mics>stereo tube mic pre(can't reccomend which one,since i don't know what kind of txcture ..sound you want)/mytek converter
what is your budget?
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anders,
what do you mean by sound txcture?
budget-wise, i'm not really restricted, just need to get the job done right. these recordings will be made in multiple venues of different sizes/shapes, so i am looking for gear that is somewhat versatile.
i've got a lot of feedback here (thank you everyone). i've looked up a lot of the gear, but to me the lay person, it all tends to look the same, and i suppose to an extent some gear choices are made on personal preferences. i've been leaning toward the mic/sbd mix. if someone has the time to provide a mic to recording unit layout, i'd really appreciate it.
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mics(1 or 2) -> microphone preamplifier -> analog to digital converter -> digital out via toslink, spdf, or aes -> dat deck, minidisc, harddrive recorder
-was that what you were looking for, if not let me know and i can provide more info
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cp, thanks for that. so as i go through the recommended gear, this is really where i'm at a loss. for example.. mics.. Neuman, Gefell, AKGs.. these are all top-notch brands. is there a way to choose between them?
and so on with the preamp and the converter.
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cp, thanks for that. so as i go through the recommended gear, this is really where i'm at a loss. for example.. mics.. Neuman, Gefell, AKGs.. these are all top-notch brands. is there a way to choose between them?
and so on with the preamp and the converter.
That is the burning question. As you can see all over this board, everyone loves their own stuff. you need to dl some and listen. the mics you mentioned are all great, the high end pre's will have a/d's on board. if the band wants to go this big, you should be recording directly onto hd w/dat as a backup.
jr
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"anders,
what do you mean by sound txcture?"
are you looking for a sound that is bright ,open and revealing or
colored,focused and musical pleasing?
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budget-wise, i'm not really restricted, just need to get the job done right. these recordings will be made in multiple venues of different sizes/shapes, so i am looking for gear that is somewhat versatile."
o.k ..here is a forum dedicated for remote work
http://gearslutz.com/board/forumdisplay.php3?s=&forumid=21
try and get some answers here as well.
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"budget-wise, i'm not really restricted"
Hmmm...this one will be fun.
Of the top of my head...(This format is only for a stereo pair matched with the sbd)...
Source 1&2: DPA 4041 (LR) > Grace 201 > Fostex d2424lv(ch1&2)
Source 3&4: DPA 4011 (LR) > Grace 201 > Fostex d2424lv(ch3&4)
Source 5&6: SBD(mains or subs) > Fostex d2424lv(ch5&6)
Source 7&8: SBD(aux for backup) > Fostex d2424lv(ch7&8)
This system is designed for redundancy. You don't ever want to be caught with your pants down when one of your audience sources fails or one of the sbds feeds burps, cracks, drops, etc. 12K plus I assume you're probably running a digital FOH mixer with array, don't fool with the delay, you can snip edit this directly onto the hard disk recorder. All you have to do is snap to the front of the wav, find the delay and re-set the matrix - all in post and it should only take you a few minutes into post. If you lose the 4041 source, you have the 4011 source. If the 4041 source sounds better than the 4011 use it, and vice versa. In addition, if you lose the main due to some type of anomolie, you have the aux sends, but need to make sure that the aux is getting full mixdown. Of all the people doing this out there, there isn't enough emphasis on redundancy of the system. The Fostex will accept 8 channels at 24/96 and it sounds crisp. 12K venues? Jesus, find yourself a roadie to run a tension line somewhere near fob but flying them 30 feet above everyone's heads...you did say "budget-wise, i'm not really restricted" right? ;D