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Author Topic: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder  (Read 79458 times)

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #180 on: May 21, 2024, 02:53:47 PM »
no matter what the other differences are, the f3 isn't "larger", it's significantly larger.  And has significantly worse battery life.
Depends what youre into. I would probably never use F3 in a situation where I didnt need either phantom or the ability to take a hot sbd feed. I see tapers using F3 with unbalanced stealth rigs as if its some improvement and don't get it. if you can get all your gear in and run it yet dont know your gear well enough to lean on (what is essentially a crutch) of 32 bit to capture your data, you're probably missing the mark. The only time i ever use 32bit float on the devices i have is if its completely unattended which is not the case with gear on your body. adjusting levels is as fundamental as ensuring you remembered to press record, methinks.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #181 on: May 21, 2024, 04:59:04 PM »
I'm interested in this for a specific application, but will be waiting for test reports from other users to determine if it will actually be capable of doing what I need, which is recording 4 to 6 channels using 2 or 3 of these units in combination, with centralized remote control and sync.

Other than sufficient powering and SINAD to accommodate a pair of DPA CORE 4060 [the baseline go/no-go performance metric for me], the critical functionality for my use will be if two or three of them can be sufficiently sync'd and controlled while in pocket, using the software below or something equivalent to it installed on my phone..

seems you can control the units with this software

https://www.sidus.link/sidusAudio/software

The goal is replacing: 4 X 4060 > 4 channel CA-UGLY2 > DR2d.   I need at least 4, or better 6 channels (modular addition good), operable from a single control.  I would much prefer all 4-6 channels to a single recorder, but there is nothing small enough capable of that.   Given the elimination of an external preamp or bat box, I can deal with 2 or 3 of these units in pocket, which shoud be no larger than CA-UGLY2 > DR2d, and probably somewhat better form wise.

Control and sync will be the key.

If you come across reviews which include sync control of multiple units, please post a link.  Thanks.
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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #182 on: May 21, 2024, 05:01:30 PM »
FYI to further the conversation, I've also been thinking of picking up an F3 for soundboard / 2nd small 2ch phantom rig use.

Different use case, different feature set, different horses for courses.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Rairun

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #183 on: May 21, 2024, 06:07:39 PM »
no matter what the other differences are, the f3 isn't "larger", it's significantly larger.  And has significantly worse battery life.
Depends what youre into. I would probably never use F3 in a situation where I didnt need either phantom or the ability to take a hot sbd feed. I see tapers using F3 with unbalanced stealth rigs as if its some improvement and don't get it. if you can get all your gear in and run it yet dont know your gear well enough to lean on (what is essentially a crutch) of 32 bit to capture your data, you're probably missing the mark. The only time i ever use 32bit float on the devices i have is if its completely unattended which is not the case with gear on your body. adjusting levels is as fundamental as ensuring you remembered to press record, methinks.

The 32-bit float part here is just not true? I've seen it repeated here several times that 24-bit has more than high enough dynamic range not to be a problem in itself, and this IS true - but only if you have multiple ADCs to go along with it. The truth of the matter is that depending on the type of music you like, taping shows is too unpredictable for you to nail your gain settings for every part of the show. I can record a quiet song with no apparent preamp noise using a quality preamp's higher gain setting (EIN gets higher the higher gain you use); I can also record a louder song by dialling the gain down (EIN decreases, but this doesn't really matter because the signal is strong compared to the preamp's noise floor). What I can't do is use the low gain setting for BOTH sections of music (the only option we have when we don't know when they're coming), and expect the less-than-ideal staging for the quiet parts to sound good. Of course this is only really relevant if you're using compression or amplifying certain songs in post, but some bands really do get that loud AND that quiet, and it's a terrible experience to listen back without narrowing the dynamic range.

The entire point of these 32-bit float devices is that they have multiple ADCs that attain good gain staging for ALL parts of the music. The issue was never the noise floor inherent to the 24 bit format (which exists, but is too quiet to matter). The issue is clipping when you're trying to optimise your analogue gain for the quietest sounds you're trying record. A Zoom F3 bypasses this issue altogether, which is why people are so fond of using it. It isn't simply a crutch. Are you seriously adjusting your analogue gain mid song all the time? Unless you know exactly what's coming, that's not practical, and the level differences you get by doing it by hand are very annoying to fix in post.

I say this as someone who doesn't have an F3. If it had a minijack input, or a longer battery life, I'd go for it in a heartbeat.

« Last Edit: May 21, 2024, 09:14:30 PM by Rairun »
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Offline adrianf74

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #184 on: May 21, 2024, 08:24:34 PM »
no matter what the other differences are, the f3 isn't "larger", it's significantly larger.  And has significantly worse battery life.

Lol.  Christ, I had a WM-D3 back in the day and a TCD-D7 as well. The F3 doesn't phase me.

Battery life, even with P48 on, can be between 3.5h with IKEA Ladda batteries... If you use Energizer Lithium batteries, you can double that. Plenty for my needs.
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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #185 on: May 21, 2024, 08:50:02 PM »
The 32-bit float part here is just not true?

I'm thinking you missed the part where they revised the specs that the unit no longer does 32-bit float when used for 2 channel recording? single channel 32-bit float recorders with 5V power for lavs have existed for awhile (Tentacle Track E) so the PR2 doesnt break any ground in that regard.

In regard to the rest of the gain-ranging discussion, id have to respectfully disagree with your take. Weve already seen some units like the zoom raise the noise floor when switching ADCs (something that it seems most people agree is inconsequential to our use). In the same manner, the "wide dynamic range" of the zoom series is really limited to +4 on the top end (and the typical modern input approaching -130dB EIN. When you switch it from mic to line in to allow for hotter signals it just throws a pad on and you lose ~20dB of dynamic range. I have yet to see a single measurement that shows a 32-bit float recording offering increased dynamic range over a 24-bit counterpart, as all the 32 bit equipment ive measured or seen tested (admittedly only zoom and SD) has a dynamic range that fits easily inside the 144dB 24bit container.

for audience recording purposes a 24-bit recording has limited use over a 16-bit recording as were usually working with 60-70 dB dynamic range at most between crowd noise/wind/hvac/etc

In this case i just dont see 32bit float being at all useful for a device with 90dB SINAD, let alone the (presumably) cleaner zoom and SD units (which have all been tested and shown to have marginal inputs at best to save to 32-bit). yeah it might save your recording if you blow your levels, but you know what else will... a 24 bit recording peaking at -12dB

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #186 on: May 21, 2024, 08:51:53 PM »
FYI to further the conversation, I've also been thinking of picking up an F3 for soundboard / 2nd small 2ch phantom rig use.

Different use case, different feature set, different horses for courses.

I've used my F3 to plug into a handful of boards and it's great to not worry about checking it while I video.
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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #187 on: May 21, 2024, 08:54:04 PM »
I can record a quiet song with no apparent preamp noise using a quality preamp's higher gain setting (EIN gets higher the higher gain you use); I can also record a louder song by dialling the gain down (EIN decreases, but this doesn't really matter because the signal is strong compared to the preamp's noise floor). What I can't do is use the low gain setting for BOTH sections of music (the only option we have when we don't know when they're coming), and expect the less-than-ideal staging for the quiet parts to sound good. Of course this is only really relevant if you're using compression or amplifying certain songs in post, but some bands really do get that loud AND that quiet, and it's a terrible experience to listen back without narrowing the dynamic range.

this is all simple to do in post, without any guessing. As you mentioned, you raise the noise floor when you raise the gain in the field. thats fixed to your mic self noise and room noise, all of which gets amplified whether you do it in real time or post.

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #188 on: May 21, 2024, 09:58:20 PM »
I can record a quiet song with no apparent preamp noise using a quality preamp's higher gain setting (EIN gets higher the higher gain you use); I can also record a louder song by dialling the gain down (EIN decreases, but this doesn't really matter because the signal is strong compared to the preamp's noise floor). What I can't do is use the low gain setting for BOTH sections of music (the only option we have when we don't know when they're coming), and expect the less-than-ideal staging for the quiet parts to sound good. Of course this is only really relevant if you're using compression or amplifying certain songs in post, but some bands really do get that loud AND that quiet, and it's a terrible experience to listen back without narrowing the dynamic range.

this is all simple to do in post, without any guessing. As you mentioned, you raise the noise floor when you raise the gain in the field. thats fixed to your mic self noise and room noise, all of which gets amplified whether you do it in real time or post.

That's the thing though, you are assuming the main source of noise is the mic self noise and room noise. But I can consistently hear the preamp self-noise before either of those, when we're talking about recorders like the Zoom H series, or the Roland R-05, or the Sony PCM-M10. The Zoom H1 and H1N, for example, automatically switch circuits when you increase your gain past +13dB or so - you can clearly hear a drop in hiss when you go from +12 dB to +13 dB, even though you're getting more gain. The same is true of the Roland's MicLOW and MicHI gain settings: their gain range overlaps, so if you set both to the same point in their overlapping range, MicHI will very clearly sound less noisy, and that becomes particularly apparent when you add even more gain digitally in post.

The thing about the Zoom F3 is that not only does it have cleaner pre-amps than the aforementioned recorders, but it also works in such a way that you don't have to pick between MicLOW and MicHI, it will just switch automatically as needed. Maybe our use cases are too different, I don't know. What I'm saying is particularly true when you're using mics that aren't too sensitive and you aren't using any external pre-amps, so you're always using Mic instead of Line In (I appreciate your point that if your signal is hot enough, the F3 just applies a pad, but my mics without an external pre-amp are basically never hot enough).

I agree this discussion is not particularly relevant to the Deity PR-2, except for the fact that supposedly its pre-preamp outperforms all the recorders I've mentioned except the Zoom F3 and the MixPre. At this point the advantage of the Deity over the worse recorders I've mentioned is the size, battery life, 5V PiP and MAYBE pre-amp quality, but that's it.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2024, 10:00:27 PM by Rairun »
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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #189 on: May 21, 2024, 10:21:22 PM »
That's the thing though, you are assuming the main source of noise is the mic self noise and room noise. But I can consistently hear the preamp self-noise before either of those, when we're talking about recorders like the Zoom H series, or the Roland R-05, or the Sony PCM-M10.

fair enough. i would personally never use any of those devices as preamps so i dont really have that experience

i cant hear noise in A10 in the cases ive used it as a pre with small electrets, but it might be old ears...

I agree this discussion is not particularly relevant to the Deity PR-2, except for the fact that supposedly its pre-preamp outperforms all the recorders I've mentioned except the Zoom F3 and the MixPre.

thats speculative at this point, we will see! i hope its great, but my expectations are tempered. we can hope its well above the zoom H series which is known for being nosiy.

the more i dig the 90 dB sinad isnt all that uncommon on mic ins and isnt far from sound devices own spec. not state-of the art  but"good enough" for our purposes, perhaps we ahve a case of transparently honest measurement, which would be nice

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #190 on: May 21, 2024, 10:43:12 PM »

fair enough. i would personally never use any of those devices as preamps so i dont really have that experience

i cant hear noise in A10 in the cases ive used it as a pre with small electrets, but it might be old ears...

Yeah, I avoid using them as preamps when possible too! The allure of the PR-2 is the promise of 5V PiP and the hopes that the preamp will be good enough for you to ditch, say, a CA9200 preamp. If you still need to use an external preamp, 5V PiP is kind of pointless anyway.

thats speculative at this point, we will see! i hope its great, but my expectations are tempered. we can hope its well above the zoom H series which is known for being nosiy.

the more i dig the 90 dB sinad isnt all that uncommon on mic ins and isnt far from sound devices own spec. not state-of the art  but"good enough" for our purposes, perhaps we ahve a case of transparently honest measurement, which would be nice

Yeah, we'll see! I hope it's good, but who knows at this point.
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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #191 on: May 22, 2024, 03:52:26 AM »
The 32-bit float part here is just not true?

I test it on my PR2 and can confirm that 32bit works ONLY in mono mode. So when you switch to stereo you also switch to 24bit. No way to select 32bit and stereo  :bawling:

I'll try to visit gig on 8th of june to test PR2 in the wild  >:D
« Last Edit: May 22, 2024, 03:54:12 AM by Psinka »

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #192 on: May 22, 2024, 04:18:11 AM »
I have to admit i don't understand the utility of "mic pass thru" (which is disabled on US models). If the unit provides PIP, why would you ever need to pass PIP from a transmitter thru the output to the input? Couldn't you power the mic from the PR2 and send a line signal to the transmitter, without violating any patents?

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #193 on: May 22, 2024, 04:27:39 AM »

Other than sufficient powering and SINAD to accommodate a pair of DPA CORE 4060 [the baseline go/no-go performance metric for me], the critical functionality for my use will be if two or three of them can be sufficiently sync'd and controlled while in pocket, using the software below or something equivalent to it installed on my phone..


metarecorder can do this but not elegantly, via its master/slave mode. they are all clocked independently though, same as the deity PR2s would presumably, as time code sync is not the same as word clock.

not elegant because you need a separate phone for each 2 channels. i think only the teenage engineering unit that hoserama runs fits your bill but thats a monster with a price to match

Offline goodcooker

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #194 on: May 22, 2024, 09:27:01 AM »
I have to admit i don't understand the utility of "mic pass thru" (which is disabled on US models). If the unit provides PIP, why would you ever need to pass PIP from a transmitter thru the output to the input? Couldn't you power the mic from the PR2 and send a line signal to the transmitter, without violating any patents?

This is a function needed by the crowd that this recorder is primarily marketed to - which is NOT concert tapers.

From the Deity website -
"MIC PASS THRU
The PR-2 features a toggle switch on the top that allow you to pass the microphone PiP from the output thru to the input. This means you can daisy chain the PR-2 with a transmitter so you can add recording functionality to any transmitter you might own. This also means even if the PR-2 is turned off, the transmitters PiP is still passing thru to power your lavalier."
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