Author Topic: Wireless (Airport-extreme) distance run/ best way? (Read 18868 times)

ArchivalAudio · « **on:** October 03, 2010, 03:41:56 PM »

Hi
what I am tryign to do is set up my new 2010 iMac out in my detached garage (office/ shop/music/entertainment room) it is about 70' from our house. Currently I run my oldschool (space capsule style) Airport Extreme out of our cable modem/wireless router. In this way we have 2 networks and I can forward my ports properly.
The concept is that I want to have wireless out in the garage/office.
I have been thinking about running conduit out underground and running a CAT5 ethernet cable out to the garage so I can easily connect the airport out there. ( I can get a 100' cable from markertek for $17
but perhaps I could just get an extension antenna and shorter BNC cable.
I think I would get a better signal if my Airport were in the same room as my computer and it would likely be more cost effective then the (amplified?)antenna route - though I have not research that yet?

can others please give me suggestions.
thanx
--Ian

ArchivalAudio · « **Reply #1 on:** October 03, 2010, 03:49:21 PM »

would this be something that would be a better solution?
Hawking Technology HAO9SIP Outdoor Omni-Directional Wireless Antenna Kit
http://www.markertek.com/Interface-Solutions/Networking-Products/Newtorking-Interface-Accessory/HAO9SIP.xhtml?HAO9SIP

ArchivalAudio · « **Reply #2 on:** October 03, 2010, 03:53:17 PM »

or either of these:
Hawking Technology HAI15SC Hi-Gain Directional Corner Wireless Network Antenna
http://www.markertek.com/Interface-Solutions/Networking-Products/Newtorking-Interface-Accessory/Hawking-Technology/HAI15SC.xhtml
Hawking Technology HSB2 802.11g HiGain Signal Booster v.2
http://www.markertek.com/Interface-Solutions/Networking-Products/Newtorking-Interface-Accessory/HSB2.xhtml

ArchivalAudio · « **Reply #3 on:** October 03, 2010, 04:00:08 PM »

this looks cool too!
Hi-Gain Outdoor Wireless-300N Multifunction Access Point
http://www.hawkingtech.com/products/productlist.php?CatID=32&FamID=122&ProdID=403

ArchivalAudio · « **Reply #4 on:** October 03, 2010, 04:37:57 PM »

this seems most cost effective:
[HSB2] Hi-Gain WiFi Signal Booster
http://www.hawkingtech.com/products/productlist.php?CatID=32&FamID=72&ProdID=187

best price
http://www.amazon.com/Hawking-HiGain-Signal-Booster-version/dp/tech-data/B0009MYSHU/ref=de_a_smtd

but is 600% boost enough if I throw this sucker in the eve's of the attic can it go like 70 feet?

ArchivalAudio · « **Reply #5 on:** October 03, 2010, 05:20:09 PM »

oh
that one actually looks like it plugs into the computer not the router
what about this
is 7dbi a vast improvement?
Hawking HAI7SIP HiGain 7dBi Indoor Omni Directional Antenna
http://www.hawkingtech.com/products/productlist.php?CatID=32&FamID=58&ProdID=214
http://www.amazon.com/Hawking-HAI7SIP-HiGain-Directional-Antenna/dp/tech-data/B000AD4JEA/ref=de_a_smtd

DigiGal · « **Reply #6 on:** October 03, 2010, 06:08:46 PM »

I tried one of these 7dB antenna units out once on the old UFO Extreme Router using a reverse polarity RP-SMA connector to Airport antenna connector adapter. The antenna was useless it is no wonder it is discontinued now.

http://www.amazon.com/TERK-WF-O-Omni-Directional-WiFi-Antenna/dp/B000N7E4BQ

Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B) · « **Reply #7 on:** October 03, 2010, 06:34:43 PM »

Wired will be the most reliable way to do this (not to mention cheapest).

If you want to run wireless another possibility is to get a new wireless router (N type) that can run either Tomato or DDWRT firmware. That way you can crank up the output in case you're getting a weak signal in places. Placement of the router is also important. Keep in mind that when you crank up the output of the router you will decrease it's lifespan. Unfortunately I'm not up to snuff on what routers work the best with these firmwares. I'm sure a search on Google and/or NewEgg will help with that though.

rastasean · « **Reply #8 on:** October 03, 2010, 07:32:24 PM »

congrats on the new computer. maybe to offset the high price on the computer you need to sell your VM44 mics?

I think there are three options for this, imo.

1) buy a new router, specifically something with a long range like engenius brand.
my cursory search found this: http://tinyurl.com/2colces and this http://tinyurl.com/24poe66
I don't know how far your cable modem is from an outside wall but I do know this same company also makes routers that can be installed outside.
both of these just happen to be indoor routers.
if you want to use DDWRT, go to http://www.dd-wrt.com/site/support/router-database and see if any router you own is in their database.

2) run a cable. We all know cat 5 ethernet cable would give you faster speeds and probably the cheapest route because you don't need to buy anything but the cable. It would just suck if it got damaged because you have to replace it again.

3) bring the computer inside next to the other computer/router and connect it via ethernet cord.

let us know what you decide.

ArchivalAudio · « **Reply #9 on:** October 03, 2010, 08:50:23 PM »

well
thanx all so far

( as for my new 21" 2010 iMac- it was gifted by a benefactor, so I won't be letting go of my VM-44's anytime soon - my Fostex FR2LE is another story...)

I not real keen on my first idea of digging a trench through the yard and under a cople of concrete sidewalks to set conduit and run a long eithernet CAT5 cable down. though suggestions thus far appear that that would be best
though most time consuming and labor intensive.

so would a wireless amplifier antenna not be enough?
would an outdoor antenna better?

would either of these work well?
http://www.hawkingtech.com/products/productlist.php?CatID=32&FamID=58&ProdID=266
http://www.hawkingtech.com/products/productlist.php?CatID=32&FamID=58&ProdID=266
[HAO14SDP] Hi-Gain™ 14dBi Outdoor Directional Antenna Kit
http://www.hawkingtech.com/products/productlist.php?CatID=32&FamID=58&ProdID=267

my wife is kinda liking not diggin up the yard idea and would prefer I spent my time doing other projects...

thanx again
--Ian

ArchivalAudio · « **Reply #10 on:** October 03, 2010, 08:58:24 PM »

above
Hi-Gain™ 14dBi Outdoor Directional Antenna Kit HAO14SDP
at amazon here
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000B59J8I/ref=asc_df_B000B59J8I1271333?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&tag=pg-397-100-20&linkCode=asn&creative=395093&creativeASIN=B000B59J8I $83
just would need an extension cable
look like this would work
http://www.amazon.com/Hawking-Outdoor-Antenna-Cable-30/dp/tech-data/B00008V9D9/ref=de_a_smtd $40

that would be like $123
which would save time and we all know time equals money!

rjp · « **Reply #11 on:** October 03, 2010, 09:05:50 PM »

Note that DD-WRT has a "repeater bridge" option which does two things: it provides a boosted signal on a different SSID, and wired devices can also be plugged into the repeater bridge.

WDS could also be used in this situation, but I've found it to be a bit flaky with different brands of wireless cards and access points.

One thing to be aware of if you run a cable between buildings - proper grounding and lightning protection are important (yes, even for underground runs). Ground potential differences between buildings can be surprising, and lightning does weird things.

ArchivalAudio · « **Reply #12 on:** October 03, 2010, 11:36:35 PM »

oh and I'd
need one of these
Hawking SMA JACK TO APPLE CONNECTOR ( HACSA )
http://www.amazon.com/Hawking-JACK-APPLE-CONNECTOR-HACSA/dp/B0000DIESX/ref=reg_hu-wl_item-added

ArchivalAudio · « **Reply #13 on:** October 03, 2010, 11:39:29 PM »

i'm not sure what's up with the ddwrt or why i need it?
my system works - ports forwarded and wep encryption running safe firewall...

Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B) · « **Reply #14 on:** October 04, 2010, 12:19:53 AM »

Quote from: ArchivalAudio on October 03, 2010, 11:39:29 PM

i'm not sure what's up with the ddwrt or why i need it?
my system works - ports forwarded and wep encryption running safe firewall...

DD-WRT or Tomato will allow you to "upgrade" compatible routers to broadcast a stronger signal to help you maintain higher speed at longer distances.

Personally, I would recommend either to most people here (both are comparable in quality). Advantages are much more control of what your router can do (adding features for example). Disadvantages are voiding the warranty and decreased router life (in the case of increasing the broadcast power).

All in all I think it's worth it, but if you get something that works without upgrading and you don't feel comfortable doing so...there isn't much of a reason to do it other than the dork factor (which many of us fall victim to).

ArchivalAudio · « **Reply #15 on:** October 04, 2010, 02:55:01 PM »

found this one still a 14dBi outdoor for less at newegg

TRENDnet TEW-AO14D 14 dBi Outdoor High-Gain Directional Antenna
http://www.trendnet.com/products/proddetail.asp?prod=145_TEW-AO14D&cat=92&status=view

newegg
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833980009&cm_re=wireless_antenna-_-33-980-009-_-Product

look like it would work...
I think for various reasons
It might be better to run a wireless outdoor antenna rather then dig up the whole yard and worry about cable runs.

does that make sense?
I really I just trying to use what I know works since my old Apple Airport works fine and my ports are forwarded I am happy with it.

--Ian

rastasean · « **Reply #16 on:** October 04, 2010, 03:05:37 PM »

try the antenna with the current router and see what happens. if the signal is still weak and speeds are slow, upgrade the router to one that I linked you to that has inherently more output power than the airport router.

sparkey · « **Reply #17 on:** October 04, 2010, 03:26:41 PM »

There is a whole lot of crossover between antenna's and and microphones, when you start looking at pickup patterns of both antennas and microphones. Directional antenna's come in similar flavors as directional microphones, and I recall speaking with an engineer a few years ago that said signal gain tended to flatten out around 10 or 12db, making ratings above that disingenuous. I'd take a look at this product:

http://meraki.com/

Mesh wireless is typically pretty spendy and these are reasonably priced. The other option I'd encourage you to check out is installing high gain directional antenna's at each location and pointing them at each other. Don't forget to ping everyone with an update on how you fared!

Josh

ArchivalAudio · « **Reply #18 on:** October 05, 2010, 01:02:34 AM »

hey thanx all
one other question? anyone know if reflectix would interfere with a wifi signal?
http://www.reflectixinc.com/basepage.asp?Page=Double+Reflective+Insulation&pageIndex=622
my garage has R13 + reflectix and I just realized the double thermal radiant barrier may cause wifi signal reflection or distortion. any ideas on that one?

--Ian

Neilyboy · « **Reply #19 on:** October 05, 2010, 07:52:26 AM »

I am a diy guy. A buddy at work (I work for an internet provider) had issues with his physical internet connection at home. Unfortunately he lived on the side of the street which our company could not service him (sounds odd but we run dsl off copper around here and the remote he was fed from was too far out for our services to reach him). So he was stuck with a junk connection from another company (getting maybe 512k down 128k up). So anyway, His mother lived across the street from him and down a few houses (a bit of a distance away). He ended up building some can-tennas and was able to point them directly at one another. It worked out very well for him. He was able to get our service to his mothers house giving him 8meg down shoot it across the street to his house (via a ddwrt'd linksys) spitting it out ethernet to himself from there.

If I were you I would look around at some DIY stuff to see what options you have on the cheap (as a bunch of those antennas are nothing special, just a bunch of numbers and jargon to sound like they are boosting the signal). You would be surprised what some of these plans online can do for wireless signal.

anyway, i got to run to work but if I get time today ill look for some plans or ask the guy there where he got his plans from

neil

ArchivalAudio · « **Reply #20 on:** October 05, 2010, 11:15:03 AM »

^^^ thanx Neil

ArchivalAudio · « **Reply #21 on:** October 05, 2010, 02:41:17 PM »

found this Cantenna
here:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=11&sqi=2&ved=0CG4QFjAK&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.turnpoint.net%2Fwireless%2Fcantennahowto.html&ei=kmerTN2VBofAsAONnZGHBA&usg=AFQjCNF182HW9QE6-ww9EMGl2soeeHYPCQ
however I believe I'll still buy one and move my airpor to the back of the house, via eithernet then I'll have less antenna cable to run
but other suggestions are still welcome
--Ian

DigiGal · « **Reply #22 on:** October 05, 2010, 04:49:05 PM »

Just saw this Hot Forum Topic at Mac Observer today.

[Extending Wi-Fi Signal Range] ---> http://www.macobserver.com/tmo/forums/viewthread/79342/

ArchivalAudio · « **Reply #23 on:** October 06, 2010, 01:00:33 AM »

Quote from: DigiGal on October 05, 2010, 04:49:05 PM

Just saw this Hot Forum Topic at Mac Observer today.

[Extending Wi-Fi Signal Range] ---> http://www.macobserver.com/tmo/forums/viewthread/79342/

Awesome
Thanx DigiGal!

--ian

rjp · « **Reply #24 on:** October 06, 2010, 07:29:28 PM »

Quote from: Neilyboy on October 05, 2010, 07:52:26 AM

He ended up building some can-tennas and was able to point them directly at one another. It worked out very well for him. He was able to get our service to his mothers house giving him 8meg down shoot it across the street to his house (via a ddwrt'd linksys) spitting it out ethernet to himself from there.

Cantennas are surprisingly good. Some years back, there was a little coffee shop a few doors down from me - but it didn't have WiFi. As an experiment, I set up a cantenna link from my house, and it worked beautifully - while punching through two buildings and about 300 feet. The Proxim WiFi card I usually use with my laptop has an external antenna connector.

I build the first one out of a Chef-Boy-Ar-Dee ravioli can (the only thing I could find at the grocery store that was close to the optimum size), and the second one from the tin that came with a bottle of Glenfarclas single malt Scotch. Needless to say, the latter was more enjoyable to consume.

The whisky-tin antenna had a narrower beam pattern than the Ravioli Special.

ArchivalAudio · « **Reply #25 on:** October 07, 2010, 03:25:57 AM »

Quote from: rjp on October 06, 2010, 07:29:28 PM

Quote from: Neilyboy on October 05, 2010, 07:52:26 AM
He ended up building some can-tennas and was able to point them directly at one another. It worked out very well for him. He was able to get our service to his mothers house giving him 8meg down shoot it across the street to his house (via a ddwrt'd linksys) spitting it out ethernet to himself from there.

Cantennas are surprisingly good. Some years back, there was a little coffee shop a few doors down from me - but it didn't have WiFi. As an experiment, I set up a cantenna link from my house, and it worked beautifully - while punching through two buildings and about 300 feet. The Proxim WiFi card I usually use with my laptop has an external antenna connector.

I build the first one out of a Chef-Boy-Ar-Dee ravioli can (the only thing I could find at the grocery store that was close to the optimum size), and the second one from the tin that came with a bottle of Glenfarclas single malt Scotch. Needless to say, the latter was more enjoyable to consume. The whisky-tin antenna had a narrower beam pattern than the Ravioli Special.

cool thanx
But I think my wife would be happier if I just got a nice manufactured antenna...
though it does sound very promising
that my idea will (or should ) work

--Ian

keytohwy · « **Reply #26 on:** October 08, 2010, 08:10:08 PM »

Archival, I think I have a Hawking + Apple adapter in a box somewhere. If you wanna work something out for it, let me know.

I have two Time Capsules and use the WDS software built into extend range, but still share same ports, etc. Works like a champ. Remember that your new Mac is 802.11n, and the Airport you have is 802.11g, so you are already stepping down a notch. I'd suggest grabbing a couple of Airports and getting on with it. Price being a factor, I know you are exploring other options. Again, let me know if you want me to dig for the Hawking.

keytohwy

ArchivalAudio · « **Reply #27 on:** October 09, 2010, 02:44:45 AM »

Quote from: keytohwy on October 08, 2010, 08:10:08 PM

Archival, I think I have a Hawking + Apple adapter in a box somewhere. If you wanna work something out for it, let me know.

I have two Time Capsules and use the WDS software built into extend range, but still share same ports, etc. Works like a champ. Remember that your new Mac is 802.11n, and the Airport you have is 802.11g, so you are already stepping down a notch. I'd suggest grabbing a couple of Airports and getting on with it. Price being a factor, I know you are exploring other options. Again, let me know if you want me to dig for the Hawking.

keytohwy

hey that would be cool!
I think you are talking about this:
Hawking SMA JACK TO APPLE CONNECTOR ( HACSA )
which is $13.23 at amazon
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000DIESX/ref=ord_cart_shr?ie=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER

let me know PM me - I'll be gone for the weekend...

are you saying that it would be cheaper to get a newer airport and go WDS, with the same effect?

when I look using iStumbler and apple network utility it appears that I am 802.11n
thanx for more info
--Ian

ArchivalAudio · « **Reply #28 on:** October 12, 2010, 01:26:53 AM »

Quote from: ArchivalAudio on October 09, 2010, 02:44:45 AM

Quote from: keytohwy on October 08, 2010, 08:10:08 PM
Archival, I think I have a Hawking + Apple adapter in a box somewhere. If you wanna work something out for it, let me know.

I have two Time Capsules and use the WDS software built into extend range, but still share same ports, etc. Works like a champ. Remember that your new Mac is 802.11n, and the Airport you have is 802.11g, so you are already stepping down a notch. I'd suggest grabbing a couple of Airports and getting on with it. Price being a factor, I know you are exploring other options. Again, let me know if you want me to dig for the Hawking.

keytohwy

hey that would be cool!
I think you are talking about this:
Hawking SMA JACK TO APPLE CONNECTOR ( HACSA )
which is $13.23 at amazon
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000DIESX/ref=ord_cart_shr?ie=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER

let me know PM me - I'll be gone for the weekend...

are you saying that it would be cheaper to get a newer airport and go WDS, with the same effect?

when I look using iStumbler and apple network utility it appears that I am 802.11n
thanx for more info
--Ian

keytohwy
that would be yes can we work something out

I sent you a PM
--Ian

ArchivalAudio · « **Reply #29 on:** October 12, 2010, 01:39:53 AM »

so are you statting that I sould just get a new aiprot?
like this refurb one for $129
http://store.apple.com/us/product/FC340LL/A?mco=MTc4MzI5NzM#overview

would it be a stronger signal and perhaps be a better solution?

wouldn't I still need an extender antenna?

--Ian

ArchivalAudio · « **Reply #30 on:** October 13, 2010, 02:57:09 AM »

any other ideas or suggestions?

scb · « **Reply #31 on:** October 13, 2010, 08:38:43 AM »

powerline adapter?

ArchivalAudio · « **Reply #32 on:** October 13, 2010, 01:02:41 PM »

Quote from: scb on October 13, 2010, 08:38:43 AM

powerline adapter?

what exactly do you refer to?
I would like to know more
--Ian

kindms · « **Reply #33 on:** October 13, 2010, 01:14:00 PM »

If you were using a more modern airport extreme you could simply install a router in the garage and another int he main hose. there should be enough over lap to create the wifi backbone

using 802.11n on both units should give you the throughput and necessary penetration to do it.

WDS is built in to many newer routers (airport extremes the newer ones). It is more than likely available int he 3rd part firmware like DDWRT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_Distribution_System

You should be able to do this. I have folks in big mansion multifloor setups that this works well with

DigiGal · « **Reply #34 on:** October 13, 2010, 01:26:30 PM »

Quote from: ArchivalAudio on October 13, 2010, 01:02:41 PM

Quote from: scb on October 13, 2010, 08:38:43 AM
powerline adapter?
what exactly do you refer to?
I would like to know more
--Ian

Powerline adapter is what was ultimately suggested in the Mac Observer Forum link by the admin Dave Hamilton. You may want to contact him, I reposted the original thread link and his twitter address from his posts from there, quoted in blue below.

http://www.macobserver.com/tmo/forums/viewthread/79342/

"My experience with all of this is that Wi-Fi extenders rarely (if ever) reliably extend the signal range more than a few percent. Usually they just cause interference and reduce overall signal strength (yes, I know I talk about the one time I used my AEBS in a hotel room to bounce the hotel’s Wi-Fi from the front of my room to the back, but it turns out that was the ONLY time I ever saw success with anything like this… and that was VERY limited success, at best).

The right answer is to get a PowerLine adapter set, plug one in where your router is, plug another in where you’re having signal issues, and the hang a router (in bridge/access point mode) from the latter. Works *fantastic* and I’ve never looked back. -Dave Hamilton / The Mac Observer / Dave on Twitter"

"Powerline is pretty-much plug-and-play. You plug both powerline units into AC outlets on the wall, then plug ethernet cables into each one. In essence, treat it as though those two ethernet cables are two ends of the same cable. Once plugged into your routers, the two will be connected.

The trick is that your “extension” router needs to be put into Bridge mode (as Apple calls it) or Wireless Access Point mode (as it’s called on other, 3rd party, routers).

Does that help? -Dave Hamilton / The Mac Observer / Dave on Twitter http://twitter.com/davehamilton"

scb · « **Reply #35 on:** October 13, 2010, 03:56:45 PM »

i've used powerline with great results and with not so great results. it all depends on the wiring. it worked perfectly at my parents house

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833122318&cm_re=powerline-_-33-122-318-_-Product

it uses your power lines as ethernet cable. you plug in a box to an ac outlet (NOT a power strip) at both ends. plug ethernet cable from your router or whatever into the powerline box on one end, and plug an ethernet cable from the powerline box on the other end to your computer, to another router, etc. no need to lay more cable since your powerlines are acting as the cable for you

ArchivalAudio · « **Reply #36 on:** October 14, 2010, 01:23:59 AM »

Quote from: scb on October 13, 2010, 03:56:45 PM

i've used powerline with great results and with not so great results. it all depends on the wiring. it worked perfectly at my parents house

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833122318&cm_re=powerline-_-33-122-318-_-Product

it uses your power lines as ethernet cable. you plug in a box to an ac outlet (NOT a power strip) at both ends. plug ethernet cable from your router or whatever into the powerline box on one end, and plug an ethernet cable from the powerline box on the other end to your computer, to another router, etc. no need to lay more cable since your powerlines are acting as the cable for you

hey thanx all
That New egg link is great! great price- may be I sould just try that
but I do have more questions [Of Course!]
So at this one link http://support.plasternetworks.com/support-notes/using-powerline-adapters-to-extend-your-wifi-network
and http://www.tested.com/news/tested-wi-fi-antenna-boosters-and-powerline-adapters/306/

and else where It appears that it works best when the powerline adapters are on the same circuit.
my garage is definitely NOT on the same circuit breakers are the rest of the house or where the other Wifi Modem/Router is.
and it appears likely due to old wiring in much of the house - not all circuits (outlets) are grounded. however the garage is grounded just fine
would there ba any issues with one outlets grounded and one not?

thanx
so much
--Ian

ArchivalAudio · « **Reply #37 on:** October 14, 2010, 01:53:18 AM »

wow looking more at the new egg link and at the netgear site - it sure appears the units are not grounded
and looks like a great solution

but perhaps I should also consider the newer "refurbed" Airport extreme

though for no my old school one would work
the powerline option looks like it could work great!

any other input is appreciated!

ArchivalAudio · « **Reply #38 on:** October 14, 2010, 02:48:15 AM »

would there be any reason to go with a faster model
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833122233
like that?

my last speakeasy speedtest result was
Last Result:
Download Speed: 8635 kbps (1079.4 KB/sec transfer rate)
Upload Speed: 750 kbps (93.8 KB/sec transfer rate)
with my old school Airport extreme
which I am currently only getting a 50% reception rate - since it's going through a plaster wall about 15' away
--Ian

ArchivalAudio · « **Reply #39 on:** October 16, 2010, 02:30:42 PM »

Ok thank you to all
for helping me to understand what the hack a powerline adapter unit is.
I ended up ordering the "faster" units http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833122233

with the plan that I will also upgrade to a new "current version" airport extreme in the near future.
I'll let you know how successful this is after I try them out.
--Ian

ArchivalAudio · « **Reply #40 on:** October 21, 2010, 01:21:07 AM »

My two Netgear XAVB101-100NAS
Arrived from NewEgg today
it appears to be working great from one room to the other in our home
next step will be trying it out from house to garage- which may not happen until I have more time this weekend!

DigiGal · « **Reply #41 on:** October 21, 2010, 01:09:21 PM »

Ian,

Finally determined my saucer Airport Extreme has been giving problems lately after my ISP recently fixed their issues. Turns out there are several people that started experiencing the same issues with these units according to this Apple Discussions thread.

http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=2520326&start=0&tstart=0

I decided to replace it with a current model airport extreme since the Protection Plan expired. I was considering a new one anyway before the problem started. Apple set me up with a certified refurbished unit that is fully covered under my current Apple Care Protection Plan.

ArchivalAudio · « **Reply #42 on:** October 22, 2010, 01:10:09 AM »

Quote from: DigiGal on October 21, 2010, 01:09:21 PM

Ian,

Finally determined my saucer Airport Extreme has been giving problems lately after my ISP recently fixed their issues. Turns out there are several people that started experiencing the same issues with these units according to this Apple Discussions thread.

http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=2520326&start=0&tstart=0

I decided to replace it with a current model airport extreme since the Protection Plan expired. I was considering a new one anyway before the problem started. Apple set me up with a certified refurbished unit that is fully covered under my current Apple Care Protection Plan.

DigiGal, thanx - it will take me a while to digest those pages of discussion.
So far My (refurbed) Aiport extreme has not lost connections- though it did a while back before I updated the firmware- I would have to restart it multiple times a day - so I know how that sucks...
you must have bought apple care for your original airport... how long was it for and how much was it?

--Ian

DigiGal · « **Reply #43 on:** October 22, 2010, 11:55:14 AM »

Quote from: ArchivalAudio on October 22, 2010, 01:10:09 AM

DigiGal, thanx - it will take me a while to digest those pages of discussion.
So far My (refurbed) Aiport extreme has not lost connections- though it did a while back before I updated the firmware- I would have to restart it multiple times a day - so I know how that sucks...
you must have bought apple care for your original airport... how long was it for and how much was it?

--Ian

I'm running the current version 5.7 and having the problems with the old style flying saucer extreme. The thread suggests rolling back to a different version as a work around. My saucer extreme was covered under the apple care protection from my old imac but that had expired a year ago. The current model extreme that I just purchased is an apple certified refurbished unit, it will now be covered under the apple care protection of my current imac.

If you have the old style saucer shaped extreme it will likely need frequent re-boots with the latest software.

Thought you originally mentioned having the saucer shaped extreme and didn't see a post mentioning that you got a new extreme. If you have since picked up a current model flat unit as a refurb you shouldn't have the issue.

So which model airport extreme do you have now?

Note: the new units do not have an external antenna port like the old models did.

ArchivalAudio · « **Reply #44 on:** October 23, 2010, 04:48:18 PM »

^^^^ thanx DigiGal
I still have an older style flying saucer extreme (which I got as a refurbed unit)- a few years back I had the need to restart it multiple times a day - did the retro firmware downgrade as suggested- eventually I upgraded the firmware to 5.7 as well and have not seen the restart issues in a couple of years...
So if I wnet to the current version extreme (refurbed) http://store.apple.com/us/product/FC340LL/A?mco=MTc4MzI5NzM
that they no longer have an external antenna port? - after looking at the pics- that appears correct! but then n is supposed to be faster and stronger signal then g - correct?

--Ian

ArchivalAudio · « **Reply #45 on:** October 24, 2010, 11:29:47 PM »

ok so
in a preliminary test moving out the garage with the powerline adaptors - my speed significantly decreased like less then 1/2 to a 1/4 as fast...
however this presumably is attributed to the fact I am trying to use home wiring to run Ethernet.

I am curious if it would be worthwhile to get a new Airport extreme- 802.11n
here is a good description in a real world type of review
http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/apple-tv/apple-tv-faq/what-is-802.11n-differences-between-802.11n-802.11a-802.11b-802.11g.html

in playing with the powerline adapters in the house its not bad, depending on the outlets used
but when moving tot the garage the red LED blinks - which according to user manual means less than 50mbps
I am wondering if withe r the combo of the powerline (or not using them ) and
a new 802.11n extreme http://store.apple.com/us/product/FC340LL/A?mco=MTc4MzI5NzM
might solve my dilemma?
I'm getting the feeling I'm just throwing money at the issue... but hey it's only money I don't really have to spare at the moment- oh-well!

thanx
--Ian

keytohwy · « **Reply #46 on:** October 25, 2010, 12:42:19 PM »

Quote from: ArchivalAudio on October 24, 2010, 11:29:47 PM

ok so
in a preliminary test moving out the garage with the powerline adaptors - my speed significantly decreased like less then 1/2 to a 1/4 as fast...
however this presumably is attributed to the fact I am trying to use home wiring to run Ethernet.

I am curious if it would be worthwhile to get a new Airport extreme- 802.11n
here is a good description in a real world type of review
http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/apple-tv/apple-tv-faq/what-is-802.11n-differences-between-802.11n-802.11a-802.11b-802.11g.html

in playing with the powerline adapters in the house its not bad, depending on the outlets used
but when moving tot the garage the red LED blinks - which according to user manual means less than 50mbps
I am wondering if withe r the combo of the powerline (or not using them ) and
a new 802.11n extreme http://store.apple.com/us/product/FC340LL/A?mco=MTc4MzI5NzM
might solve my dilemma?
I'm getting the feeling I'm just throwing money at the issue... but hey it's only money I don't really have to spare at the moment- oh-well!

thanx
--Ian

One, or even two, newer Airports would be ideal. Anything else, and should expect degraded results. You'll want to balance that performance and price, and make the decision that fits you best. How fas is your broadband connection? How many 'n' devices do you have now? Is having the internet connection in your garage worth $300? $200? $50?

keytohwy

ArchivalAudio · « **Reply #47 on:** October 25, 2010, 01:49:16 PM »

^^^ All great questions.
1st its priceless

my detached garage- will be my office / studio and entertainment space.

Currently we have a charter cable dsl modem/wireless router for my wife that we plan on dropping in favor of a straight up cable modem as we also already have another wireless router (from OWC) that we are plaing on using for the house network.
and I'll have some airport extreme in the garage for my network

only n device we have currently is my new
i3 3.06Ghz iMac (june2010)

as I was typing I realized the new/old (yet to be set up) newer technology wireless-n router model # mxp802nrtr is an n router and that I get that sucka set up asap....

http://www.newertech.com/products/router.php
maybe that will also help matters
--Ian

ArchivalAudio · « **Reply #48 on:** October 26, 2010, 03:49:53 AM »

so
ok
I am used to the simplicity of Airport and port forwarding... I get the maxpower set up and it seems to be faster but I can not seem to see or forward ports - what am I missing?
the airport utility does not work since it is not an airport device
what next?
I am ready to get the current refurbed unit unless I can forward ports...

scb · « **Reply #49 on:** October 26, 2010, 09:05:02 AM »

Quote from: ArchivalAudio on October 24, 2010, 11:29:47 PM

in playing with the powerline adapters in the house its not bad, depending on the outlets used
but when moving tot the garage the red LED blinks - which according to user manual means less than 50mbps
I am wondering if withe r the combo of the powerline (or not using them ) and
a new 802.11n extreme http://store.apple.com/us/product/FC340LL/A?mco=MTc4MzI5NzM
might solve my dilemma?

What kind of speed are you expecting with the Airport? it'll definitely be "less than 50mbps." or was that a typo and you meant 5?

Do you know the actual speed you're getting with the powerline adapter?

ArchivalAudio · « **Reply #50 on:** October 26, 2010, 01:33:14 PM »

Quote from: scb on October 26, 2010, 09:05:02 AM

Quote from: ArchivalAudio on October 24, 2010, 11:29:47 PM
in playing with the powerline adapters in the house its not bad, depending on the outlets used
but when moving tot the garage the red LED blinks - which according to user manual means less than 50mbps
I am wondering if withe r the combo of the powerline (or not using them ) and
a new 802.11n extreme http://store.apple.com/us/product/FC340LL/A?mco=MTc4MzI5NzM
might solve my dilemma?

What kind of speed are you expecting with the Airport? it'll definitely be "less than 50mbps." or was that a typo and you meant 5?

Do you know the actual speed you're getting with the powerline adapter?

good question... I know the old airport is only 54mbps at best anyway
it's just when the powerline adapters are both in the house, all the lights are green and it appears that I can get resonable speed - however I have yet to just try plugging the Ethernet in direct that may give me a truer speed thruput.
more later
--Ian

rjp · « **Reply #51 on:** October 27, 2010, 11:05:23 PM »

Quote from: ArchivalAudio on October 26, 2010, 01:33:14 PM

it's just when the powerline adapters are both in the house, all the lights are green and it appears that I can get resonable speed - however I have yet to just try plugging the Ethernet in direct that may give me a truer speed thruput.

One possibility - are the house and garage outlets on the same phase?

Electricity lesson: in the US and Canada, standard household service is normally split-phase 240V, with a center-tapped transformer providing two 120V hot leads and a grounded neutral from the center tap. In some cases, the feed is two phases plus neutral from a 208V three-phase wye feed, which still yields 120V on each phase. In either case, if adapter A is on phase 1 and adapter B is on phase 2, performance is going to be poor. I've seen capacitive coupling devices that can provide a bridge for the high-frequency Ethernet signal, which can plug into a 240/208 socket.

On the other hand, the signal might just be getting degraded by distance.

DigiGal · « **Reply #52 on:** November 20, 2010, 02:43:52 PM »

Quote from: DigiGal on October 21, 2010, 01:09:21 PM

Ian,

Finally determined my saucer Airport Extreme has been giving problems lately after my ISP recently fixed their issues. Turns out there are several people that started experiencing the same issues with these units according to this Apple Discussions thread.

http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=2520326&start=0&tstart=0

I decided to replace it with a current model airport extreme since the Protection Plan expired. I was considering a new one anyway before the problem started. Apple set me up with a certified refurbished unit that is fully covered under my current Apple Care Protection Plan.

To follow up: Just by replacing my old saucer extreme router with the new flat style extreme router my problems stopped and as a bonus my internet speed instantly increased too.

ArchivalAudio · « **Reply #53 on:** November 21, 2010, 01:12:22 AM »

Quote from: DigiGal on November 20, 2010, 02:43:52 PM

Quote from: DigiGal on October 21, 2010, 01:09:21 PM
Ian,

Finally determined my saucer Airport Extreme has been giving problems lately after my ISP recently fixed their issues. Turns out there are several people that started experiencing the same issues with these units according to this Apple Discussions thread.

http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=2520326&start=0&tstart=0

I decided to replace it with a current model airport extreme since the Protection Plan expired. I was considering a new one anyway before the problem started. Apple set me up with a certified refurbished unit that is fully covered under my current Apple Care Protection Plan.

To follow up: Just by replacing my old saucer extreme router with the new flat style extreme router my problems stopped and as a bonus my internet speed instantly increased too.

Thank you DigiGal!
To follow with my situation I also got a new n type Airport extreme, still also have the powerline adapters, I currently have them set up in the house and the Airport in the back bedroom closest to the garage. With my old iBook( which can only get g and not n) I get a weak signal in the garage, outside the the step of the garage it is much stronger. So this weekend I plan on moving out my iMac to the garage and see if I can get a strong enough signal- otherwise I am moving the Airport and 1 powerline adapter to the garage where I suspect the powerline /Ethernet connection will be weak.
however either way I have NOT had to dig trenches or run cable!!!

but it did cost me over $200 - but hey time is money right?

more soon!
--Ian

ArchivalAudio · « **Reply #54 on:** November 24, 2010, 01:18:24 AM »

ok
So I tried to see if I could connect my new n Airrport extreme with it in the house and my iMac in the garage. - really sloooow and no up load speed-
then I moved one powerline adapter and the airport into the garage with even worse results! http://www.speakeasy.net/speedtest/ even failed to have U/L results

My garage has reflectix [url]http://www.reflectixinc.com/[/url ]insulation on all the walls and ceiling with is like silver mylar coated (2sides) bubble pack. I believe it is not only a radiant barrier but a wifi inhibitor as well.

SO my next step is to go with my original plan - which I think would yeild the best connection - which is routing an Ethernet cable from the house to the garage, either by trenching it in conduit underground (under a number of concrete side walks. Or flying it parallel to the Phone wire that goes from the house to the garage.
Does anyone know about weatherproof Ethernet cable?
or is there a way to use regular Phone wire as Ethernet?

looks like I am back to square ONE!

any help or Ideas would be helpful

--Ian

rjp · « **Reply #55 on:** November 24, 2010, 09:18:51 AM »

Quote from: ArchivalAudio on November 24, 2010, 01:18:24 AM

My garage has reflectix [url]http://www.reflectixinc.com/[/url ]insulation on all the walls and ceiling with is like silver mylar coated (2sides) bubble pack. I believe it is not only a radiant barrier but a wifi inhibitor as well.

SO my next step is to go with my original plan - which I think would yeild the best connection - which is routing an Ethernet cable from the house to the garage, either by trenching it in conduit underground (under a number of concrete side walks. Or flying it parallel to the Phone wire that goes from the house to the garage.
Does anyone know about weatherproof Ethernet cable?
or is there a way to use regular Phone wire as Ethernet?

Could you mount an outdoor antenna on the garage? If not, does the garage have a window facing the house? A clear path would work wonders.

If you run cable, from a safety standpoint (lightning strikes/surges), you need to have a protector wherever the cable enters a building. Or else, run fiber instead of copper.

For existing phone wire, some DSL modems can be configured to work in pairs without a DSLAM, so you could run DSL between the buildings (provided you isolate it from any existing DSL service). However, it would be best that the cable be twisted-pair, not old-school quad wire. Quad wire has red/green/yellow/black, while twisted pair would have blue/white and orange/white pairs. You could put the phone on one pair, and the DSL on the other pair to keep it away from telco's DSL.

Are there neighboring WiFi networks sharing the same channel? That could also be affecting your performance. Channels 1, 6, and 11 don't overlap, so if there are a bunch of nearby installations on 6, try switching yours to 1 or 11.

ArchivalAudio · « **Reply #56 on:** November 25, 2010, 01:24:30 AM »

could this one work on the house side?
http://www.hawkingtech.com/products/productlist.php?CatID=32&FamID=122&ProdID=403 on amazon http://www.amazon.com/Hawking-HOWABN1-Hi-Gain-Wireless-N-Multifunction/dp/tech-data/B0036VO394/ref=de_a_smtd

it's like just over $200 - Ouch!

however it appear that it works with a normal Ethernet cable.

any other ideas?

--Ian

ArchivalAudio · « **Reply #57 on:** November 25, 2010, 01:46:00 AM »

Quote from: rjp on November 24, 2010, 09:18:51 AM

Quote from: ArchivalAudio on November 24, 2010, 01:18:24 AM
My garage has reflectix [url]http://www.reflectixinc.com/[/url ]insulation on all the walls and ceiling with is like silver mylar coated (2sides) bubble pack. I believe it is not only a radiant barrier but a wifi inhibitor as well.

SO my next step is to go with my original plan - which I think would yeild the best connection - which is routing an Ethernet cable from the house to the garage, either by trenching it in conduit underground (under a number of concrete side walks. Or flying it parallel to the Phone wire that goes from the house to the garage.
Does anyone know about weatherproof Ethernet cable?
or is there a way to use regular Phone wire as Ethernet?

Could you mount an outdoor antenna on the garage? If not, does the garage have a window facing the house? A clear path would work wonders.

If you run cable, from a safety standpoint (lightning strikes/surges), you need to have a protector wherever the cable enters a building. Or else, run fiber instead of copper.

For existing phone wire, some DSL modems can be configured to work in pairs without a DSLAM, so you could run DSL between the buildings (provided you isolate it from any existing DSL service). However, it would be best that the cable be twisted-pair, not old-school quad wire. Quad wire has red/green/yellow/black, while twisted pair would have blue/white and orange/white pairs. You could put the phone on one pair, and the DSL on the other pair to keep it away from telco's DSL.

Are there neighboring WiFi networks sharing the same channel? That could also be affecting your performance. Channels 1, 6, and 11 don't overlap, so if there are a bunch of nearby installations on 6, try switching yours to 1 or 11.

rjp
thank you
Last to first;
in the garage I was "seeing other networks" I did see on won 11 and I think a couple on 6 according to iStumbler. My 5Ghz n Network is on channel 149 ( which for some reason I could not see or receive in the garage - only the g network that was on 11 But I switched to 10. for some reason I could not see my named 5Ghz network but got the g - showing up as n or may be that was just the router showing as n capable. in the house I see 2 networks on ch1 and 2 on ch6.

after I posted this I researched the phone wire Idea an noticed as you state they are not the twisted pairs of CAT5 or CAT5e.

the garage does indeed have a window in a line with the house- however there is an old apple tree and a larger cedar in between the two they do not completely directly block the run... but mostly do. that was sort of my hope is getting a semi straight shot from the back bedroom of the house to the garage. Would window to window sight-line be better than through the router behind a wall that would have a mostly clear line of sight to the window in the garage in question?
Yes I could easily mount an antenna on either the house or the garage - or both, I guess I don't know which to use. It would certainly be MUCH better than running a cable out there.
The current version airport extreme - does not have an antenna connection (as n is supposed to be 5x greater coverage then g - according to apple)

What sort of device would I need on the garage end to have the antenna connect to my iMac?
I would love this solution - I guess I need to read more - or a pointer in the direction would he very helpful.

thanx again
--Ian

ArchivalAudio · « **Reply #58 on:** November 25, 2010, 04:04:19 AM »

would a computer side boster antenna work as well?
like this:
http://www.hawkingtech.com/products/productlist.php?CatID=35&FamID=111&ProdID=396&AppleComp=1

it would hopefully help reception on the computer end and perhaps help with the U/L speeds- yes? no?
at new egg: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833164037
at amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Hawking-HWUN3-Wireless-N-Upgradeable-Antennas/dp/B001O5BF0Y/ref=pd_sim_e_2

for $34 it seems that might be worth a try?

thanx for replies
--Ian

ArchivalAudio · « **Reply #59 on:** November 25, 2010, 04:16:35 AM »

looks like with the abouve I could also - reverse antanna tht unit
and add
this one:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000AD4JEA/ref=asc_df_B000AD4JEA1332508?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&tag=pg-397-100-20&linkCode=asn&creative=395093&creativeASIN=B000AD4JEA
and
http://www.amazon.com/Hawking-RP-SMA-TO-RJ-SMA-HAC7SS/dp/B0000DIESO/ref=pd_bxgy_e_text_b

which may also help reception if the previous item did not completely help?

any feedback?
thanx
--Ian

rjp · « **Reply #60 on:** November 25, 2010, 10:21:58 AM »

If you don't need more than "g" speeds, the classic Linksys WRT54GL has external antenna connectors, and it's also compatible with DD-WRT firmware. Actually, any router that is compatible with DD-WRT and has external antenna connectors would do.

One of the nice features of DD-WRT is that you can set the the router for the garage to run in "repeater bridge" mode. This will do two things: 1) allow you to plug wired devices into it and have them immediately bridged to your house network, and 2) repeat the wireless signal using a different SSID, providing a strong signal in your garage.

Alternatively, you could use WDS, but I've never had good luck with that. WDS works in a similar way, but also keeps the same SSID on all nodes. However, it's a real bitch to set up, and some wireless adapters can't cope with it.

A nice source for wireless networking equipment is Fleeman, Anderson, & Bird - they have all sorts of antennas, cables, etc. I ordered cables and connectors from them when I built my cantenna.

ArchivalAudio · « **Reply #61 on:** November 25, 2010, 03:02:12 PM »

would adding one of theses on my computer end help?
http://www.premiertek.net/products/networking/HT-H10DN.html

amazon http://www.amazon.com/802-11N-ADAPTER-WRLS2T2R-DIPOLE-ANTENNA/dp/B00353ATA0/ref=sr_1_41?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1290713643&sr=1-41

it show it supports n band as does most of these types of use antenna adapters - but non look like they support the 5GHz band?
should I be concerned about that?

Using one of these or cheaper single antenna style USB adapters would also enable me to run an outdoor antenna like the hawking -
http://www.hawkingtech.com/products/productlist.php?CatID=32&FamID=122&ProdID=267
or
http://www.hawkingtech.com/products/productlist.php?CatID=32&FamID=122&ProdID=266

if I needed to go that route - I think?

yes / no ?

thanx
--Ian

ArchivalAudio · « **Reply #62 on:** November 25, 2010, 03:11:43 PM »

Quote from: rjp on November 25, 2010, 10:21:58 AM

If you don't need more than "g" speeds, the classic Linksys WRT54GL has external antenna connectors, and it's also compatible with DD-WRT firmware. Actually, any router that is compatible with DD-WRT and has external antenna connectors would do.

One of the nice features of DD-WRT is that you can set the the router for the garage to run in "repeater bridge" mode. This will do two things: 1) allow you to plug wired devices into it and have them immediately bridged to your house network, and 2) repeat the wireless signal using a different SSID, providing a strong signal in your garage.

Alternatively, you could use WDS, but I've never had good luck with that. WDS works in a similar way, but also keeps the same SSID on all nodes. However, it's a real bitch to set up, and some wireless adapters can't cope with it.

A nice source for wireless networking equipment is Fleeman, Anderson, & Bird - they have all sorts of antennas, cables, etc. I ordered cables and connectors from them when I built my cantenna.

hey some how I miised your reply before my above post.
I am really hoping on getting n speeds now that I have but since it was suggested before I'll check out the DD-WRT

Let me digest some of your thoughts before I reply more
thanx
again
--Ian

ArchivalAudio · « **Reply #63 on:** November 25, 2010, 06:39:52 PM »

any news on this company
http://www.hiroinc.com/product_details.php?category_id=13&item_id=34
on tiger
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=5625615&CatId=2704
and amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/H50194-802-11n-Wireless-Network-Adaptor/dp/B003516BJU/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1290728289&sr=1-1

I may try one of these USB antennas and see if that helps or then add an outdoor type.
reasons I shouldn't?

rjp · « **Reply #64 on:** November 25, 2010, 07:41:52 PM »

All I can say is try one and see if it works. I don't have a test lab.

I'd suggest something with an external antenna, that you can place where you need it.

tim in jersey · « **Reply #65 on:** November 25, 2010, 11:00:31 PM »

Quote from: Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B) on October 03, 2010, 06:34:43 PM

Keep in mind that when you crank up the output of the router you will decrease it's lifespan.

Did not know that. Good tip, thanks.

ArchivalAudio · « **Reply #66 on:** November 28, 2010, 10:41:20 PM »

this one looks very nice it's about $80
[HAWNU2] Hi-Gain Wireless-150N Window Adapter with Range Amplifier http://www.hawkingtech.com/products/productlist.php?CatID=32&FamID=60&ProdID=409

any know if I run a long amplified USB cable like this tripplite on amazon: Tripp Lite U026-016 USB2.0 16-Feet Certified Active Extension Cable http://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-U026-016-Certified-Extension/dp/B0002D6QJO/ref=reg_hu-rd_add_1_dp_T2

if it would still power this enough and NOT degrade the signal?

I think having a 12dbi boost would be very helpful!

--Ian

ArchivalAudio · « **Reply #67 on:** December 07, 2010, 01:02:31 AM »

ok so I did get the above Hawking:
http://www.hawkingtech.com/products/productlist.php?CatID=32&FamID=60&ProdID=409
my iMac is out in the garage - I am awaiting a 30' USB cable so I can mount the unit in the window aimed at the spot in the house where the Airport Extreme is. my link quality is between 88% and 99 %
and the signal strength is listed as good about 72 + %
I am hoping once I can get the 13dbi antenna at the windo and properly aimed that I can get a more solid signal.
it's (obviously) working better with D/L than U/L - but the point is finally I am connected wirelessly!
update as I find out more

--Ian

ArchivalAudio · « **Reply #68 on:** December 11, 2010, 03:28:56 AM »

Today, I got my 10 meter- aka 32' active USB cable and placed the above Hawking USB Hi-Gain Wireless-150N Window Adapter with Range Amplifier
HAWNU2
- near my window - and aimed at the spot at the wall of the house where the Airport Extreme is and I get much better results

also I found this helpful blog entry to force my AE into n 2.4ghz mode
http://timabbott.com/networking/force-802-11n-on-airport-extreme/