Topic: Ethernet Run between 2 buildings?

[ArchivalAudio]

In A couple of other discussion threads
I explain the woes of getting internet out to my  detached garage about 60' feet behind our house.
discussed here: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=139707.0
So I now have been having horrid connections sped that have significantly dropped off since April 30th see thread here: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=145366.0

Now I am back to square one and would like to go to my first choice to Run Ethernet CAT6 from the house to the garage, buried in some PVC conduit pipe. The struggle is that we have a number of concrete pads and sidewalks that go diagonally across the yard, making my trenching need to go under a t least a few sidewalks.
I assume I will also need one or possible 2 surge suppressors on the CAT6
looking at picking up 2(if needed) of these:
one by APC Model PNET1GB



potentially thru Newegg so I can also get more CAT 6.


The Idea for this is so I can run my Airport Extreme out in the garage, to create the network out here.

Is there a better way to do this?
what other  things should I look out for/ consider?


thank you very much for your help!
--Ian

[rastasean]

If this were me, the first thing I would want to do is test to make sure the speeds are sufficient prior to digging up the yard and spending more money. Do you have 70+ feet of cat 6 cable? Looks like newegg just has 50 foot followed by 100 foot: http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=100010070%20600079561%20600026274%20600026276&IsNodeId=1&name=100%20ft.

So I would get the right length cable and run it from the router to the shed for a couple days to see if the speeds remain constant or if they degrade like you've been experiencing. Do speed tests, file transfers from other machines on your network to this one, uploading, downloads from something like archive, heavy web browsing, etc.
Are you using any switches or just one router?

[ArchivalAudio]

Thanx ^^^^^
that was the idea to just set it up first even if jusyt over night (weekend) just runing the CAT6 above the ground through a window.
I know I saw some 75' cables somewhere either on markertek or maybe amazon.
I remeasured the distance today and the garage is just over 50' formt he house, more like closer to 60' but less than the 60' I figure with bends and turns etc a 75' CAT6 cable should work

would it be a good idea to have a surge supressor on each end? that way I could have double grounds to each structures "earth" and  they also act as a Female>Female coupler?
--Ian

[Shadow_7]

At those lengths, you might be better off just buying the wire spool and crimping the connections yourself.  But it sounds like a lot more work than it's worth IMO.  Setup some wireless N type network.  Sure it's slow compared to 6.  But you could run several networks and multi-plex it, packets are packets.  But the main issue with running ethernet outside is lightning.  The other one being that any future trenching is going to cut right through it.  Unless you need absolute security, or also need to run some power cables across that span, I just think that ethernet isn't the way to go.  Fiber optics or other options maybe, but not exactly consumer friendly.  It's only a matter of time until 6 is old hat and you need something new / different.  Plus you'll be doing a lot of work that you could otherwise avoid.

Anyway back to lengths, 60' across, plus 3' down from the ground and 3' up out of the ground, plus probably 6' from ground to computer, if you enter the building at the desired destination, and 6' up on the other end.  Which is already 78'.  Factor in that you need 20% slack, or at least that's the military spec for comm lines running through a forest.  Vehicles, critters, hills, trees, and such...  Seems like a lot of headache to me.  YMMV.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

I recently bought a 100' of terminated cat5 for $10 from amazon.  Don't get caught up in the hype, cat5e is fine.  The ethernet spec allows 300' per segment. Maybe that will allow you to get creative and route around your concrete.

If you do need to bury this cable, you'll want to run some kind of conduit to protect it and allow pulling/replacing cable in the future.  You should pull a cord/wire with the cable. That way the cord is in place for pulling future cable.  Is your garage power already in conduit?  Maybe you can pull through that?

Have you considering hanging the cable?

When routing cable you typically need a fair bit more than the 'as the crow flies' estimate.  Given the 300' tolerance, there is no reason to end up short. Try and borrow a spool from someone.  Pulling a cable that already has ends crimped on it is very hard, and the ends tend to get abused.  So I wouldn't worry so much about that.

It is easier to attach a cable to a modern wall jack than to crimp an end on it.  Good crimps actually take skill and practice.

[M]

I recently bought a 100' of terminated cat5 for $10 from amazon.  Don't get caught up in the hype, cat5e is fine.  The ethernet spec allows 300' per segment. Maybe that will allow you to get creative and route around your concrete.

If you do need to bury this cable, you'll want to run some kind of conduit to protect it and allow pulling/replacing cable in the future.  You should pull a cord/wire with the cable. That way the cord is in place for pulling future cable.  Is your garage power already in conduit?  Maybe you can pull through that?

Have you considering hanging the cable?

When routing cable you typically need a fair bit more than the 'as the crow flies' estimate.  Given the 300' tolerance, there is no reason to end up short. Try and borrow a spool from someone.  Pulling a cable that already has ends crimped on it is very hard, and the ends tend to get abused.  So I wouldn't worry so much about that.

It is easier to attach a cable to a modern wall jack than to crimp an end on it.  Good crimps actually take skill and practice.

You offer good advice and I understand the impulse to run in the electrical conduit but I'm sure that it's against code and I would recommend not doing this.

[rastasean]

what code?

[vanark]

what code?

I think he means building code.

If it was me, I'd be trying a different wireless router before I started digging a trench.  Someplace that you can return it if you have the same issue.  And, yes, a clear line of sight (or lack thereof) will impact the quality of the wireless signal.  Do you know how many dB it is measuring currently in the garage (vs. previously)?

It isn't clear to me if you wife is using the same wireless router or is hard wired to the Charter router.  I did read the two referenced threads, but sorry if I missed this point.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

You offer good advice and I understand the impulse to run in the electrical conduit but I'm sure that it's against code and I would recommend not doing this.

Oh - right.  Good point.  Don't do that!

He could always hide the network cable by running it in a garden hose above ground

[ArchivalAudio]

what code?

I think he means building code.

If it was me, I'd be trying a different wireless router before I started digging a trench.  Someplace that you can return it if you have the same issue.  And, yes, a clear line of sight (or lack thereof) will impact the quality of the wireless signal.  Do you know how many dB it is measuring currently in the garage (vs. previously)?

It isn't clear to me if you wife is using the same wireless router or is hard wired to the Charter router.  I did read the two referenced threads, but sorry if I missed this point.

[Shadow_7]

Your speed test seems questionable.  I wouldn't be concerned with internet to you speeds.  Unless all of this is going to the cloud.  At your test either your ISP sucks, or you have some routing / dns issues that are slowing you down.  An Asus RT-N12 will run about $40 at Fry's and other sources.  It can act as router, AP, or repeater (or was it bridge?).  If signal strength is an issue, put one in the middle point between buildings for a test run.  If it helps, then you know that that's an issue.  Although I recall reading that the RT-N12 falls back to G under certain conditions, and the RT-N16 is more than double the price.  If you're going to go that route check the DD-WRT and openwrt.org options if that interests you.

Even in G you should be doing better than that.  If only in theory 480Mbps (as in bits, not bytes / aka 60MBps).  But that's more than enough to stream most hulu or youtube content, at low quality, in real time.  Cat 5e, assuming 100, not 10 (they do both), is 100MBps ?  Cat 6 with gigabit is many times that (in theory).  Unless you're streaming video, do you really need that?  Is it functionally any different than a baby monitor could provide? 

One other thought, isn't 2.4GHz the same Hz are some cordless phones?  You might try a different channel to use for your wireless signal.  Tin foil and/or pringle can can help bridge the distance a bit too.  Elevation helps so it's not going through dressers full of clothes AND walls.  And wireless passes through glass a lot better than brick.  If you have to strategize it.

If you still must dig, you might consider going with 4" PVC pipe.  It would allow for cables to be rerun at a later date, whatever the future might bring.  And allow for a pet rat or RC vehicle to help run the pull line to the other side.  Should one break, or never be put in place to start with.  Or if you run into water issues, you can run a wetvac hose down there.  Digging sounds okay at first, until you actually start doing it.  At least around here where it's 8" of soil until you've hit limestone.  Or some other place I lived where it was 3" until granite.  Nothing quite like 6 months of swinging a pick axe to appreciate the wireless option(s).

[ArchivalAudio]

1.Your speed test seems questionable.   
2.At your test either your ISP sucks, or you have some routing / dns issues that are slowing you down. 
 3. If signal strength is an issue, put one in the middle point between buildings for a test run.  If it helps, then you know that that's an issue. 
4. Although I recall reading that the RT-N12 falls back to G under certain conditions, and the RT-N16 is more than double the price. 
5. If you're going to go that route check the DD-WRT and openwrt.org options if that interests you.

.6. But that's more than enough to stream most hulu or youtube content, at low quality, in real time. 
7. You might try a different channel to use for your wireless signal.
8. Tin foil and/or pringle can can help bridge the distance a bit too. 
9. Elevation helps so it's not going through dressers full of clothes AND walls.  And wireless passes through glass a lot better than brick. 
10. If you have to strategize it.

Not to sound flippant and thank you for your reply
but I have addressed nearly all of these issues before in previous threads and comments so here is
 answers the above 1-10
1. yep - however inside the house with the netgearModem/Router my wife's MacBook can get anywhere from 5.xxmbps to 10mbps.
2.  yep but I have all my ports open and if you see my other thread it was exactly between April 30th and May 6th when my speed dropped.
3.  I have fine signal with my Hawking HAWNU2 in 2.4ghz (n) NOT G  just my speeds dropped - could be the airport? not sure?
4. I have my Airport "forced" into n Mode both 2.4ghz and 5ghz - thought the hawking only uses 5ghz - which is why I want to run my aiprt in the garage in 5ghz via ethernet.
5. I don't need a new router I am a mac guy since 1988 and like the ease of set up - I do have another wireless router for my wife that we can set up thought it does not run in n also have an older Airport (saucer style) extreme only G speeds with that one too.
6.  that's the deal - since april 30 I can no longer stream even low quality YouTube or NetFlix.
7. I have tried every channel from 1-11, and choose based upon the site survey of other networks and their respective signal strength - also I switch them as needed ( see attached pic)
8. that's why I am using a 12dbi USB antenna from Hawking.
9. My Airport is in a closet right nest to the outside wall of the back of the house right at the eve of the roof- my Hawking antenna is pointed pout the window at the exact spot where the airport is.
10. that's what I have been trying to do.

I think If I run Ethernet and run my Airport in the garage at 5Ghz I will get fast speeds again- I had it set up in the house in 5Ghz until about December and had awesome speeds, then after moving out to the garage I dropped from about 8-10mbps to 5-6mbps now I am at a staggering halting speed of less than 1mbps...
I want my network out here.
wireless seems to have failed me as far as surfaces and distance.
All I want to do is run the Ethernet - which is where I was back in September or so.

I just want this all to work
and it should

thank you all
any other input on trenching Ethernet will be helpful
--Ian

[runonce]

looks like there are industrial/weather proof products out there

http://www.amazon.com/Outdoor-Waterproof-Ethernet-Direct-Burial/dp/B002HFEBYM

I think there are "yard slicer" tools available that make it easy to slice open and bury your wire with minimal lawn disturbance...

[Gordon]

I think there are "yard slicer" tools available that make it easy to slice open and bury your wire with minimal lawn disturbance...

at&t used something similar running new lines when we tried uverse.  you couldn't even tell they did anything in the yard. 

[it-goes-to-eleven]

I think there are "yard slicer" tools available that make it easy to slice open and bury your wire with minimal lawn disturbance...

at&t used something similar running new lines when we tried uverse.  you couldn't even tell they did anything in the yard.

How do those work with the OPs concrete?

[Shadow_7]

Well I live out in the country, and slicing the yard, which we've done didn't turn out well.  Phones lines (the grounded ones) ran through the middle of the yard.  Cable and other things if you have those do that to.  If you dig, you run the risk of cutting those completely and maybe not even noticing that you did until those "why isn't this working" moments.  And since this plot of land was someone elses land before developed, their phone lines went through the yard too.  And that was just bringing a water line from the water main which was only 10' away from where it needed to go.  Traversing 60' and who knows what you'll dig up in the process.  Do it if you must, but as someone who's had that done, there's a ton of gotcha's in that choice.

IMO it sounds like one of your wireless devices is showing it's age.  Replacement is what $40 these days.  Versus cable plus digging plus gotcha's plus .....  It's a much sure-er bet (long term) to dig after all is said and done.  But man, the road to get there is not as simple as is sounds.  Having lived in high construction areas where nobody, even the city knew what was buried where.  With cable outages, water main breaks, and other issues that would never have been, had a hole not been dug.

[ArchivalAudio]

I plan on calling "call before you dig" to locate any underground things - all other infrastructure is aerial from the utility alley behind the house where the garage is.
the water and sewer main run at the front of the house.

The older router is my wife's combo Modem/Wifi (charter provided) _ do also plan on getting a new cable modem at some point
my Airport Extreme is a current model  purchase last fall.

I think having a solid Ethernet cable to the garage will give the cleanest signal with the least interference.
I obviously could be very wrong.

--ian

[Shadow_7]

Under 3' of dirt (code for most regions I've been in).  It should be fairly clean.  WiFi has it's quirks with interference.  But most times it's signal strength over distance.  With it failing when the signal is too weak (windows / wireless zero).  I converted my mom to linux because of that ONE issue.  Unfortunately since she doesn't have issues anymore, I no longer get a new computer every year now (her old one).

AFAIK, the call before you dig sign is for the utility companies benefit, not yours.  They might know what is buried there, but probably don't know where.  And if your property was developed 20+ years ago, they might not know anything more than what's 6' from the road.  But if there is a sign there, it's probably something nasty like power or gas pipeline.  All the more reason not to dig.

[ArchivalAudio]

We are an all Mac household thought my daughter (when visiting) runs ubuntu
the call before you dig locators have located stuff in the back yard before when we need to put more sprinkler water lines in
- they located gas and water
I'm not digging down 3'  likely about 1foot or so or enough to make it under the sidewalks, and I will likely parellel them as much as I can- so I have a future point of reference.

I would like to run a 5ghz network in the garage  having my airport out here I will be able to attain much better speeds, and will soon to follow get the other new network set up in the house, then a new docsis 2.0 or 3.0 cable modem
any recommendations for a Mac's?

--Ian

[DigiGal]

Ian,

You might want to check your local equipment/tool rental house for a trench digger or ditch witch etc, which could make the job easier for you.

http://www.easydigging.com/trenching_guide.html


Here is a tool called "Sidewalk Sleever" for going under sidewalks...

http://www.sidewalksleever.com/

[ArchivalAudio]

Sweet! DigiGal!
both are useful links

A buddy of mine said That I could likely use a pressure washer (we have 2)  or also PVC pipe with a hose thread attached on one end and blast water through it while pushing and pulling the pipe so it "tunnels" under the sidewalk.

I may need to get a trenching shovel.

--Ian

[ArchivalAudio]

still awaiting my CAT6 cable and the 2 APC surge protectors.
I did get the trench  dug for the most part = under 3 sidewalks, and 1 curb. The trench still needs some work an dfine tuning.
but heck the  cat6 and surge protectors won't be here until Tuesday.
I'll try it all out before I get some 3/4" electrical PVC conduit and bury it all next week end.
having a solution- the original idea close at hand is wonderful.
it only too about 4 hours thus far to trench most of the way and under 3 sidewalks and one curb. not bad! Just needs some deepening ! 

--Ian

[Shadow_7]

The phone lines that got cut in my yard were probably 18" down.  The main thing is the lightning hazard of running any cable outside.  The deeper the safer from strikes.  But too deep and you have flooding and corrosion concerns.  Digging isn't too bad if you've got a rototiller and the soil isn't rock.  Or beach sand that continually fills in the holes.  Just make sure that it's deep enough that you're not going to nick it when you put in a sprinkler system or rototill a garden.  Or other issues with heavy vehicles not using the concrete path.

Wireless might be slower and less reliable, but it's far less construction to get it doing what it does.  Plus that whole country thing for my location where who knows what lives under the dwelling.  Creating critter habitat and access points should generally be avoided.  It just takes a small hole and you've got field mice running across the curtain rods.  Followed by the snake in the bathroom who's looking for the mice.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

I once hired a guy to trench for a cable in winter.  The job was 18"+ deep and over 45' long.  The soil was heavy clay, all the way down!  And the ground was frozen, with about 6" of snow.  He worked at an equipment rental place and quoted me the $55/hour, the rental rate for the backhoe.  He drove it over via surface streets early on a saturday - it was a couple miles away.

Now as much as we all might want to play with a backhoe, he did the digging.  He was a surgeon with that thing!  It had tungsten tipped frost teeth, and the arm telecoped out.   He was in and out in under 30 miuntes and he only charged me the half hour.  I tried to pay him the full hour and he wouldn't take it.  I think it only cost me $35.  Best $35 I ever spent.....

Can you imagine how much work is in a 45' x 18" trench in clay, in even the best weather?

[ArchivalAudio]

we had some pictures of when 2 other sprinkler irrigation lines were put in a few years back, all in relation to the sidewalks and concrete slabs.
I did also fine the 2 grey PVC electrical conduit pipes that run the power out to the garage, which must have been put in just before the sidwalks and garden "curbing" since they kind of just run in a mostly straight and right angle path going under it all. All the electric and irrigation pipes are only a few inches- like 6" or so from the surface though one is about 1 foot down.

I used a pressure washer to tunnel under the sidewalks and to help avoid tree root damage, for the most part I did not hit any large roots to speak of.



--Ian

[ArchivalAudio]

so I ran CAT 6 direct to the garage
 with 2 APC (Ethernet) Surge Protectors
and I got this speed test result!

on the 5ghz network
way better now I have the net work in the garage
now to run the CAT 6 trough 2/4" grey PVC electrical conduit!

[DigiGal]

Have fun with the big dig, post some pics of the project...

[Colin Liston]

I know I am late to this post, but a chain saw makes a great trencher.  It dulls the hell out of the chain, but chains are easy to replace or sharpen.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

I know I am late to this post, but a chain saw makes a great trencher.  It dulls the hell out of the chain, but chains are easy to replace or sharpen.

[rastasean]

So Ian, have you dug the trench?

[plains203]

I know I am late to this post, but a chain saw makes a great trencher.  It dulls the hell out of the chain, but chains are easy to replace or sharpen.

That would be a brilliant way to ruin the bar.

[Shadow_7]

Easy to replace chainsaw blades, sure.  Cheap?  Not when you're in Arkansas and every 3" is a rock.  As my Dad found out after some weather knocked out about 29 of his trees (roughly half).  And just cutting the root ball out (with rocks entrenched) went through at least 3x blades.  In the end I think we used just about every tool he had on his property.  Just to get it out of the ground and up to the front of the property to be picked up.  4x 200+lbs kids and a wheel-barrow that probably needs to be replaced now.  And it's mostly safe to walk the property again.  Foul mouth water snakes, and the remaining 29+ trees that could drop an 80lb limb on your head without notice, not with standing.

[ArchivalAudio]

At some point I'll post pics
I just used a pressure washer , mostly to go under the 4 sections of sidewalk and 1 section of curb, and a trenching shovel. It only took about 4 hours to dig most of the trench - including under the sidewalks and curb.

It's not far under the ground maybe 1 foot, but we don't get hard freeze's here and cat6 is not in anyway suseptiple to freezing - especiallly inside the 3/4 grey electrical PVC conduit.
got a APC surge/ground on each end of the cat6 at building entry....
works awesome so far  I am now running 5Ghz n network from my airport extreme.

--Ian

[taosmay]

I thought it best not to start a new topic of my own, for what I think is a relatively simple question. So, I did a search and came up with this somewhat similar topic. BTW, I hope this topic project came out good for you, Ian.

I want to run a wired ethernet network cable from the second floor of our house down to the first floor. I'm thinking 50' of cat5e should suffice in order to run  it along edges where it will not be a trip hazard. My service with our ISP is .5 Mbps Asynchronus. My question is if a 50' run  of cat5e cable at our connection speed would be diminished at all/much at the end of a 50'cable ? Anything else I should be concerned about with using that long of a run to my router ? Please do not discuss the option of going wireless, since that technology directly impacts my wife's health. Thanks

~ Harold

[vanark]

You will not see any issues with your speed on a 50' run of cat5e

[pdxdanmusic]

I thought it best not to start a new topic of my own, for what I think is a relatively simple question. So, I did a search and came up with this somewhat similar topic. BTW, I hope this topic project came out good for you, Ian.

I want to run a wired ethernet network cable from the second floor of our house down to the first floor. I'm thinking 50' of cat5e should suffice in order to run  it along edges where it will not be a trip hazard. My service with our ISP is .5 Mbps Asynchronus. My question is if a 50' run  of cat5e cable at our connection speed would be diminished at all/much at the end of a 50'cable ? Anything else I should be concerned about with using that long of a run to my router ? Please do not discuss the option of going wireless, since that technology directly impacts my wife's health. Thanks

~ Harold

Have you thought about powerline networking? Make sure you don't use a surge protector but works great for me.

[taosmay]

Thanks for the answer to my question, Vanark.

pdxdanmusic: after reading on howstuffworks, powerline networking would not seem to suit our needs. We only have/use one laptop computer in our home. Our usual second floor computer room gets a little cold in the winter for my wife (off-the-grid home/passive solar heat and wood stove on first floor), so I want to run that long cable from our router on the second floor down to the first floor, with the same laptop. Thanks anyway for the suggestion. Need to start off-gassing that long, new cable now, so it will be ready for in home use for my sensitive wife by the winter time...

[ArchivalAudio]

I thought it best not to start a new topic of my own, for what I think is a relatively simple question. So, I did a search and came up with this somewhat similar topic. BTW, I hope this topic project came out good for you, Ian.

I want to run a wired ethernet network cable from the second floor of our house down to the first floor. I'm thinking 50' of cat5e should suffice in order to run  it along edges where it will not be a trip hazard. My service with our ISP is .5 Mbps Asynchronus. My question is if a 50' run  of cat5e cable at our connection speed would be diminished at all/much at the end of a 50'cable ? Anything else I should be concerned about with using that long of a run to my router ? Please do not discuss the option of going wireless, since that technology directly impacts my wife's health. Thanks

~ Harold

Did the powerline. but when the buildings are on separate circuit breakers it doensn'tnot work good at all. Bough and sold them.
The Ethernet trench has bee working excellent!

I swear I did post the pics...already.
I'll look to photo bucket. and see where they are.

I since purchased 2 airport express units, to extend my wireless back into the house... and it works great I can use cog via airplay using airfoil to stream the multiple terrabites of music into the house so the entire family can listen.!


Have you thought about powerline networking? Make sure you don't use a surge protector but works great for me.

[ArchivalAudio]

Since I swear I already posted these pic I u/L 'd to Photo bucket... and they don't appear here...
here they are: